Someone please give me good reasons to hate Chee Soon Juan
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You make it sound like one of those love-hate relationships that just won't go away...Originally posted by sgdiehard:You can like him, dislike him, support him don't support him, BUT you don't have to love him and
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AND NO NEED TO HATE HIM!!!
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I used to wonder too. He doesn't seem to be intersted in winning electiosn and serve the people, he just wants to throw mud cos he's got an axe to grind in his head.
So what is his objective? To throw mud for his liberal masters who fund him. He doesn't cost much and these liberals are very rich. The moment he start to be rational and stop throwing mud is the day they stop funding him. He's stuck in a rut. -
I used to think highly of him as our new opposition capable of succeeding Chiam S T. Unfortunately, the way he behaved, he is very far from the mark. But I never love him there is still no reason to hate him.Originally posted by Rexdriver:You make it sound like one of those love-hate relationships that just won't go away...
Unless he does something great (can't think of what), I have oredi written him off, so no "won't go away". -
People in Singapore must understand that living under the ruling party without any balance from a strong opposition = an arrogant government and establishment = problems that you have today, e.g. the spiralling costs that make life difficult for everyone - well almost everyone.
Few ever lambast the Ruling party, even from behind forum nicks
But many are ever so quick to slam individuals who chose to speak up for the people.
We have people getting upset with mistakes in speech and less than perfect behaviour of certain individuals but few ever question what real harm has been done by those mistakes?
While it is true mistakes that were made, none of us can claim to be perfect.
So is it that unforgivable?
P.S. Mistakes by the opposition figures = opposition figures suffer.
Mistakes by the ruling party = the people suffer.
Where then is the logic?
What then is the agenda of the forumites who do not abide by logic?
These are questions we must all put our minds to and think of. -
Have no fear Mr. Chia, for though my heart does not go out to CSJ, it strays even further from dictatorship! So yes, I am all for opposing voices in our political scene.
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When one decides to go on the political stage, he is under the limelight, he becomes a public figure, and every move he makes attracts attention. Opposition party figures need to be aware that they now represent the ppl, not yet Singapore, certainly not the government. It is easy to talk about speaking for the ppl, and the citizens are watching if he is indeed speaking for the people. In the position CSJ took during the recent exchanges with Australia over the hanging of Nguyen, I don’t see him “speaking for the ppl.”
When a mistake is made, there is always the necessity to explain to the ppl, ruling party and opposition party alike. Has CSJ ever thought that he made a mistake?
Singapore needs a strong opposition to face up to the strong, entrenched ruling party. We need opposition leaders with back up, not a few individual rambos. I donÂ’t see CSJ leading, I believe he thinks he is a Rambo, but I think he is a clown and we certainly do not need clowns to complete the cast of a circus.
The biggest problem with the opposition parties in Singapore is disunity, and that was clearly demonstrated during the clash between Chiam and CSJ.
Mistakes by the ruling party = the people suffer.
Mistakes by the opposition party = the people weep.
PS. Lambasting PAP is not necessarily “representing” the ppl.
Thrashing the government is not necessarily “speaking” for the ppl.
Ridiculing Singapore is definitely not “for” the ppl. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Accountability applies to all. More so to the persons entrusted with the power and office. Opposition parties need to be scrutinized, and all the more so for the ruling party.
When one decides to go on the political stage, he is under the limelight, he becomes a public figure, and every move he makes attracts attention. Opposition party figures need to be aware that they now represent the ppl, not yet Singapore, certainly not the government. It is easy to talk about speaking for the ppl, and the citizens are watching if he is indeed speaking for the people. In the position CSJ took during the recent exchanges with Australia over the hanging of Nguyen, I don’t see him “speaking for the ppl.”
When a mistake is made, there is always the necessity to explain to the ppl, ruling party and opposition party alike. Has CSJ ever thought that he made a mistake?
Singapore needs a strong opposition to face up to the strong, entrenched ruling party. We need opposition leaders with back up, not a few individual rambos. I donÂ’t see CSJ leading, I believe he thinks he is a Rambo, but I think he is a clown and we certainly do not need clowns to complete the cast of a circus.
The biggest problem with the opposition parties in Singapore is disunity, and that was clearly demonstrated during the clash between Chiam and CSJ.
Mistakes by the ruling party = the people suffer.
Mistakes by the opposition party = the people weep.
PS. Lambasting PAP is not necessarily “representing” the ppl.
Thrashing the government is not necessarily “speaking” for the ppl.
Ridiculing Singapore is definitely not “for” the ppl.
You have sought to hold an opposition figure accountable, I would be waiting to see if you will hold the ruling party accountable, and if so, to what extent.
I thank you for acknowledging that Singapore needs a strong opposition and that the opposition needs back up. This point will be related to the weeping later.
I thought the purpose of an election is to select representatives of the people.
If CSJ is not elected yet. How does he represent the people?
How it is that an opposition challenger can represent the people when not elected. What then is the ruling incumbent's role?
How much disunity can there by in having multiple parties with their own views and ideas?
Must opposition parties abandon autonomy in order to be united?
If that is so, unity for singapore would mean having just one party and no other parties. Where then would there be a need for elections?
For PAP v. PAP? Would that itself be seen as unity?
Who are amongst those who cried with the opposition when mistakes were made? I know of a few - and all of whom are currently in opposition parties.
If you are one of those, identify yourself for i would like to shake your hand to express my gratitude and invite you to back up the opposition parties like you have said.
LASTLY, according to you, being an opposition politician already means you represent the people (even if you are not elected) AND lambasting PAP means not representing the people.
Do you mean to say that opposition politicians by their conviction represent the people already AND SO they need not seek to be elected or seek to lambast the PAP?
Thrashing the government ? Who is thrashing the government? The Singapore government is not so easily thrashed.
Indeed, just as ridiculing Singapore will never be for the people, so would ridiculing the people will be never for the people. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
The real problem of opposition is not disunity but lack of capable people.
The biggest problem with the opposition parties in Singapore is disunity, and that was clearly demonstrated during the clash between Chiam and CSJ.
Mistakes by the ruling party = the people suffer.
Mistakes by the opposition party = the people weep.
PS. Lambasting PAP is not necessarily “representing” the ppl.
Thrashing the government is not necessarily “speaking” for the ppl.
Ridiculing Singapore is definitely not “for” the ppl.
You have a bunch of pseudo intellects like Ropbert Teh and CSJ shouting so loud with no substance, how can they hope to serve the people? Nobody will listen to them.
And the reason why you can never attract good people for the opposition is because PAP is doing such a great job.
When PAP does a bad job, good people will automatically rise up to challenge them. -
So far donÂ’t think opposition parties are being scrutinized.
The biggest problem with the ruling party the lack of accountability to the ppl. Why do we need opposition who cannot show us they can be more accountable? A bunch of politicians, ruling and opposition parties who are equally non accountable to the ppl is of no use to Singapore.
As citizens we elect members of parliament to speak for us and if they are already speaking for us even before elected, they certainly stand a better chance of getting my vote. If they choose to speak for us only when elected, then we have to decide if we are taking a risk to vote for somebody who may not speak or not capable of speaking for us. We are not getting a consultant or employing a staff, who work for us only when the employment begins.
Facing a strong ruling party, if opposition parties cannot understand the word UNITY, I can say no more. What is the best structure for Singapore politics? Even the US, there are only two parties, the Democrats and the Republicans. Do we need more? And if we have more, can we take on the ruling party? What is the priority of our opposition, win a few more seats and take on PAP in parliament, or maintain they autonomy, ideology and speak from the outside. They have to decide, we shall see.
I sure hope our politicians, from whichever party, have the conviction to represent the ppl, elected or not. Those who join politics for their own ideology, represent AI and lambaste Singapore in the name of opposition will not gain any respect, let alone votes. -
Now that's bordering on discrimination and has no place in a civil society.Are you calling members of Amnesty International criminals?Read up on what the y do before lambasting an organisation that has criticised nations big and small equally.Originally posted by sgdiehard:So far donÂ’t think opposition parties are being scrutinized.
The biggest problem with the ruling party the lack of accountability to the ppl. Why do we need opposition who cannot show us they can be more accountable? A bunch of politicians, ruling and opposition parties who are equally non accountable to the ppl is of no use to Singapore.
As citizens we elect members of parliament to speak for us and if they are already speaking for us even before elected, they certainly stand a better chance of getting my vote. If they choose to speak for us only when elected, then we have to decide if we are taking a risk to vote for somebody who may not speak or not capable of speaking for us. We are not getting a consultant or employing a staff, who work for us only when the employment begins.
Facing a strong ruling party, if opposition parties cannot understand the word UNITY, I can say no more. What is the best structure for Singapore politics? Even the US, there are only two parties, the Democrats and the Republicans. Do we need more? And if we have more, can we take on the ruling party? What is the priority of our opposition, win a few more seats and take on PAP in parliament, or maintain they autonomy, ideology and speak from the outside. They have to decide, we shall see.
I sure hope our politicians, from whichever party, have the conviction to represent the ppl, elected or not. Those who join politics for their own ideology, represent AI and lambaste Singapore in the name of opposition will not gain any respect, let alone votes. -
very good point.Originally posted by Salman:The real problem of opposition is not disunity but lack of capable people.
You have a bunch of pseudo intellects like Ropbert Teh and CSJ shouting so loud with no substance, how can they hope to serve the people? Nobody will listen to them.
And the reason why you can never attract good people for the opposition is because PAP is doing such a great job.
When PAP does a bad job, good people will automatically rise up to challenge them.
be it political stage or just making a plain statement, you need reasons, facts or some noteable examples. nobody can simply just say you are smoker without some facts or examples to back it up..
anyway, my impression of CSJ has never been good. till today he is a highly educated gangster behavior politician or dr mad dog to me. actually i expect a higher standard from him since he is a doctorate. -
there are many crooks with doctorates in this world.Originally posted by soloasylum:very good point.
be it political stage or just making a plain statement, you need reasons, facts or some noteable examples. nobody can simply just say you are smoker without some facts or examples to back it up..
anyway, my impression of CSJ has never been good. till today he is a highly educated gangster behavior politician or dr mad dog to me. actually i expect a higher standard from him since he is a doctorate.
They are very common especially in the USA where most of academia are liberals. -
yes
chee soon juan always scold us when he in australia. i hate him many many
down with chee!! down with sdp!! -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:
when did I call members of Amnesty International criminals???? read carefully before you let go.
Now that's bordering on discrimination and has no place in a civil society.[b]Are you calling members of Amnesty International criminals?Read up on what the y do before lambasting an organisation that has criticised nations big and small equally.[/b] -
Originally posted by Salman:
For your 1st point. Since you are so convinced that nobody will listen to Robert Teh and CSJ, just let them be lah. It wont harm the PAP to let them vent a bit.
The real problem of opposition is not disunity but lack of capable people.
[b]You have a bunch of pseudo intellects like Ropbert Teh and CSJ shouting so loud with no substance, how can they hope to serve the people? Nobody will listen to them.
And the reason why you can never attract good people for the opposition is because PAP is doing such a great job.
When PAP does a bad job, good people will automatically rise up to challenge them.
[/b] You know something? you have shown yourself to be more anxious to run them down then PAPpies.
Agreed wholly with the 2nd point -
why are u hating chee cheong fun?Originally posted by depressed:I have been to SDP website, hear his speech and i feel that he has meritable points on his comments and such. I don't really understand why singaporeans hate him so much. Even my father dislike him.
That being said, I am not a member of SDP atm and maybe not in the future and i will bet 1 mil dollars for anyone to challenge this claim.
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Apologies if needed, but your article had a near-criminal impression of AI...Originally posted by sgdiehard:when did I call members of Amnesty International criminals???? read carefully before you let go. -
Originally posted by soloasylum:
Good point. wholly agreed.
[b]very good point.
be it political stage or just making a plain statement, you need reasons, facts or some noteable examples. nobody can simply just say you are smoker without some facts or examples to back it up..
anyway, my impression of CSJ has never been good. till today he is a highly educated gangster behavior politician or dr mad dog to me. actually i expect a higher standard from him since he is a doctorate. [/b]
When making a statement in later part of a post, dun forget what you just said earlier. -
Point 1 - Correction - there are many more crooks in this world.Originally posted by Salman:there are many crooks with doctorates in this world.
They are very common especially in the USA where most of academia are liberals.
Point 2 - you equate liberalism = crookism?
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He should stop harping on abstract issues.
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There are many politicians who are crooks too.Originally posted by Salman:there are many crooks with doctorates in this world.
They are very common especially in the USA where most of academia are liberals. -
My original para goes like this "I sure hope our politicians, from whichever party, have the conviction to represent the ppl, elected or not. Those who join politics for their own ideology, represent AI and lambaste Singapore in the name of opposition will not gain any respect, let alone votes. "Originally posted by LazerLordz:Apologies if needed, but your article had a near-criminal impression of AI...
I was refering to politicians who are more interested in speaking for foreign orgn than for the ppl of singapore. In the recent incident, CSJ spoke more for AI than for the interest of the ppl of singapore. Nothing is said about criminals. don't be confused. -
quote from sgdiehard:
My original para goes like this "I sure hope our politicians, from whichever party, have the conviction to represent the ppl, elected or not. Those who join politics for their own ideology, represent AI and lambaste Singapore in the name of opposition will not gain any respect, let alone votes. "
First of all, whats wrong with speaking for the foreign organisations? is AI a criminal organisation? What about UN and the ICJ? then should Singapore cancel all agreements with foreign organisations which includes the UN as well? Secondly what if his speaking up for his beliefs and not the foreign organsations? do you know him that well? just because AI is against the death penalty and his beliefs are also against it doesn't mean he in in cahoots with the AI.
I was refering to politicians who are more interested in speaking for foreign orgn than for the ppl of singapore. In the recent incident, CSJ spoke more for AI than for the interest of the ppl of singapore. Nothing is said about criminals. don't be confused.
While I don't believe loyalty to singapore that kind of bullshit, i believe he should speak up for the interest of the country, not the ppl. Is it good for singapore to offend australia given singapore's current economy state? lets take nguyen for example, there are a lot of singaporeans that are also against the execution of nguyen, or rather the mandatory death penalty. So what do you define as the interest of the ppl? Is this good for the country? having nations like australia boycotting singapore is what the ppl of singapore wants? have more MNCs from australia refusing to set up business in sg becos of nguyen is also the interest of the ppl? putfile is but one minor example. To put it bluntly, singaporeans are just a pathetic lot that can't be bothered with political interests as long as their bread and butter issue remains solved. Is Chee Soon Juan lambasting Singapore or the Singapore government? what has singaporeans done when the government suggests building two casinoes? doesn't excessive gambling ruin lives as well as drugs? -
First you confuse representation with mere speech by equating speech with representation and vice versa.Originally posted by sgdiehard:So far don't think opposition parties are being scrutinized.
The biggest problem with the ruling party the lack of accountability to the ppl. Why do we need opposition who cannot show us they can be more accountable? A bunch of politicians, ruling and opposition parties who are equally non accountable to the ppl is of no use to Singapore.
As citizens we elect members of parliament to speak for us and if they are already speaking for us even before elected, they certainly stand a better chance of getting my vote. If they choose to speak for us only when elected, then we have to decide if we are taking a risk to vote for somebody who may not speak or not capable of speaking for us. We are not getting a consultant or employing a staff, who work for us only when the employment begins.
Facing a strong ruling party, if opposition parties cannot understand the word UNITY, I can say no more. What is the best structure for Singapore politics? Even the US, there are only two parties, the Democrats and the Republicans. Do we need more? And if we have more, can we take on the ruling party? What is the priority of our opposition, win a few more seats and take on PAP in parliament, or maintain they autonomy, ideology and speak from the outside. They have to decide, we shall see.
I sure hope our politicians, from whichever party, have the conviction to represent the ppl, elected or not. Those who join politics for their own ideology, represent AI and lambaste Singapore in the name of opposition will not gain any respect, let alone votes.
The differences between speech and representation go beyond mere spelling.
There is a reason why they call GRCs Group Representation Constituencies you know
You expect non-incumbents to speak on your behalf when you have not elected them.
Do you expect the incumbent MPs to speak for you when they are elected?
Would you then vote for your incumbent if he fails to speak for you?
You now seem to say that speaking for the people is the only job of an MP. Are you now lambasting PAP for going off track to load town council management on their MPs?
Certainly you understand that town council management in all wards starts with the day the candidate is elected and certainly not before?
If you feel many parties are bad then tell your bosses to legislate for only two parties to be legalised within the system lah. If PAP is one, then hopefully WP is the other.
Resorting to comparisons with United States is very much to your disadvantage. United States is a real democracy with more than 200 political parties Anyway, I thought you took the PAP tack that Singapore politics is uniquely Singapore?
What is the function of a democracy? What should the goal for participating in politics?
To seek to enable all voices from all Singaporeans to be heard irrespective of your own view or to shut out other parties and voices once you are in power? (This is dictatorial) Or to seek to shut out other voices even before you come to power? (This is delusional)
To try to shut out other voices using the argument of UNITY? (This is hypocritical)
To do anything to win a parliamentary seat without regard to principles and ideals? (This is bestial)
Indeed, any politician (opposition or ruling party), or even forumite unable to comprehend the purpose of a democracy does not deserve any respect, dun even talk about votes. (This is suicidal)
You confuse the reasons for accountability and scrutiny in politics. (This is farcical) -
I expect Singapore opposition parties who represent us, not foreign orgns. They can defend foreign orgns but if it is against the will of the ppl of Singapore, then they do not have the support of the ppl. Period.Originally posted by depressed:quote from sgdiehard:
First of all, whats wrong with speaking for the foreign organisations? is AI a criminal organisation? What about UN and the ICJ? then should Singapore cancel all agreements with foreign organisations which includes the UN as well? Secondly what if his speaking up for his beliefs and not the foreign organsations? do you know him that well? just because AI is against the death penalty and his beliefs are also against it doesn't mean he in in cahoots with the AI.
While I don't believe loyalty to singapore that kind of bullshit, i believe he should speak up for the interest of the country, not the ppl. Is it good for singapore to offend australia given singapore's current economy state? lets take nguyen for example, there are a lot of singaporeans that are also against the execution of nguyen, or rather the mandatory death penalty. So what do you define as the interest of the ppl? Is this good for the country? having nations like australia boycotting singapore is what the ppl of singapore wants? have more MNCs from australia refusing to set up business in sg becos of nguyen is also the interest of the ppl? putfile is but one minor example. To put it bluntly, singaporeans are just a pathetic lot that can't be bothered with political interests as long as their bread and butter issue remains solved. Is Chee Soon Juan lambasting Singapore or the Singapore government? what has singaporeans done when the government suggests building two casinoes? doesn't excessive gambling ruin lives as well as drugs?
If you donÂ’t believe in loyalty to Singapore then what is the interest of the country? If the interest of the country is not the interest of the ppl, then whose interest is it?
I donÂ’t know CSJ well enough to comment on him personally, but I know enough to say I cannot support him as a politician. But there is no reason to hate him.
If you want to talk about Nguyen and Australia, go to the relevant threads, you can read my answers and position there.