Someone please give me good reasons to hate Chee Soon Juan
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Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:
I hardly discuss singapore politics, not here not anywhere, where did you get the idea that "I took the PAP tack...."? When did I say that speaking for the ppl is "the only job of the MP"?
You now seem to say that speaking for the people is[b] the only job of an MP. Are you now lambasting PAP for going off track to load town council management on their MPs?
Certainly you understand that town council management in all wards starts with the day the candidate is elected and certainly not before?
If you feel many parties are bad then tell your bosses to legislate for only two parties to be legalised within the system lah. If PAP is one, then hopefully WP is the other.
Resorting to comparisons with United States is very much to your disadvantage. United States is a real democracy with more than 200 political parties Anyway, I thought you took the PAP tack that Singapore politics is uniquely Singapore?
What is the function of a democracy? What should the goal for participating in politics?
[/b]
If it is my boss who can change the legislation on political party, it will be PAP and the other, may be a renegade party split from PAP. As for WP, Low Thia Khiang has good track record, Goh Meng Seng is pretty down to earth, seen so in his exchanges on the Casino issue, Sylvia Lim is approachable, the friendly type, no air and she has a pretty face. As for the rest, especially the young ones, I will see how they grow, before I decide if and how I should put in a word to my “bosses”.
You can discuss in details with Robert Teh about Democracy. I am out of this. Interestingly, with the little exchanges with Low, Goh and Lim, I never heard them talking about democracy.
I voted twice in my life and I voted for the opposition, just for the sake of having an opposition. As I grow, with family and kids, as I see more places outside Singapore, I don think I know more about politics or democracy, but I do know I will not vote for the sake of voting anymore. PAP is not strong because the opposition is weak and the opposition cannot hope to be elected because of a weak PAP, because they are not. Lambasting them will not make them weak.
I hope Singaporean will have to weep anymore, but, sigh.....do we see any light ahead?
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If you donÂ’t believe in loyalty to Singapore then what is the interest of the country?
that was what i asked you earlier. What exactly is the interest of the country? you keep saying CSJ is putting down Singapore as his working with some foreign organisations and his doing things that is not in the interest of the ppl. So what is your definition of the interest of the ppl? my quote from the earlier post:is this good for the country? having nations like australia boycotting singapore is what the ppl of singapore wants? have more MNCs from australia refusing to set up business in sg becos of nguyen is also the interest of the ppl?
As a singaporean, I can tell you no, I don't support the execution. Another question is, if for example every singaporean supports the execution of nguyen at the cost of a trade embargo and the cancel of the free trade agreement between singapore and australia and singapore suffer, do you think then, the interest of the country is less important the the interest of the ppl? that, in my opinion, is what i mean by thinking of the interest of the country. -
Hi,Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:Accountability applies to all. More so to the persons entrusted with the power and office. Opposition parties need to be scrutinized, and all the more so for the ruling party.
You have sought to hold an opposition figure accountable, I would be waiting to see if you will hold the ruling party accountable, and if so, to what extent.
I thank you for acknowledging that Singapore needs a strong opposition and that the opposition needs back up. This point will be related to the weeping later.
I thought the purpose of an election is to select representatives of the people.
If CSJ is not elected yet. How does he represent the people?
How it is that an opposition challenger can represent the people when not elected. What then is the ruling incumbent's role?
How much disunity can there by in having multiple parties with their own views and ideas?
Must opposition parties abandon autonomy in order to be united?
If that is so, unity for singapore would mean having just one party and no other parties. Where then would there be a need for elections?
For PAP v. PAP? Would that itself be seen as unity?
Who are amongst those who cried with the opposition when mistakes were made? I know of a few - and all of whom are currently in opposition parties.
If you are one of those, identify yourself for i would like to shake your hand to express my gratitude and invite you to back up the opposition parties like you have said.
LASTLY, according to you, being an opposition politician already means you represent the people (even if you are not elected) AND lambasting PAP means not representing the people.
Do you mean to say that opposition politicians by their conviction represent the people already AND SO they need not seek to be elected or seek to lambast the PAP?
Thrashing the government ? Who is thrashing the government? The Singapore government is not so easily thrashed.
Indeed, just as ridiculing Singapore will never be for the people, so would ridiculing the people will be never for the people.
Well, to an extent it can go both ways. To have a higher chance of being elected before being actually elected, one needs to be seen to be representing the people, be it in form or substance.
However, if one politician is not elected after many elections, then it is a different story.
I can understand why Dr Chee moved from the groundwork path (for a short while under Mr Chiam) to the activist (a la Think Centre) path. Firstly, he will not be accepted enough to be elected. Secondly, he cannot run for elections now and grassroots work is pointless
Regards -
Hi,Originally posted by Salman:And the reason why you can never attract good people for the opposition is because PAP is doing such a great job.
When PAP does a bad job, good people will automatically rise up to challenge them.
I am unsure how exactly to define a "good job" by a government, but let us see after looking at Singapore's scores in the world.
I admit the PAP government has their strengths but let us go for overall.
Regards -
Hi,Originally posted by sgdiehard:Even the US, there are only two parties, the Democrats and the Republicans. Do we need more?
The US has more than 200 parties
Regards -
hmm....then you think you know what is the interest of the country and the ppl don't know what is the interest of the country?Originally posted by depressed:As a singaporean, I can tell you no, I don't support the execution. Another question is, if for example every singaporean supports the execution of nguyen at the cost of a trade embargo and the cancel of the free trade agreement between singapore and australia and singapore suffer, do you think then, the interest of the country is less important the the interest of the ppl? that, in my opinion, is what i mean by thinking of the interest of the country.
What makes you think that the interest of the ppl is diff from the interest of the country??
Take note, besides economy, there is also national sovereignty and equity in enforcing our laws to consider, to say the least, in deciding if we should go ahead with the execution. Are you afraid of a OZ trade embargo or cancellation of the FTA?
You are the first one who who don't support the DP because you are afraid we would suffer from embargo. post some better argument to substantiate your case or You are confirmed no f a r k i n g balls.
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you are not addressing my issue. I asked you what is your definition of the interest of the ppl. Yet you start being lame by skirting away the issue and posting merry-go-round type of questions. I did not say the interest of the ppl is definitely different the interest of the country. I am just giving an example.
And i did not say i did not support the execution because of a trade embargo. I said i do not support the execution but nowhere in my post did i say that having embargo was the reason i support the abolishment of executing Nguyen. Personally, I am against the mandatory death penalty (buddhist). Maybe your seemingly lack of balls has influenced you so much that you start calling ppl names. IMO you are just someone who only knows how to give false accusations and such. Its amazing you decided to equate manhood to a discussion on a country. From here, at least I know someone who doesn't care abt the interest of the country at stake when you give an impression that having a trade embargo and FTA is no big deal. You are way worse than CSJ. By thinking US has only 2 parties and thinking that is enough, you are showing a big ignorance on a real democracy.
Anyway, back to the topic on CSJ before it becomes too Nguyen. -
on a side note, the SDP website is www.singaporedemocrat.org. Whether you are !CSJ or not, I am sure by reading the website with an unbiased thinking would help a lot on your opinion on him.
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Originally posted by depressed:you are not addressing my issue. I asked you what is your definition of the interest of the ppl. Yet you start being lame by skirting away the issue and posting merry-go-round type of questions. I did not say the interest of the ppl is definitely different the interest of the country. I am just giving an example.
And i did not say i did not support the execution because of a trade embargo. I said i do not support the execution but nowhere in my post did i say that having embargo was the reason i support the abolishment of executing Nguyen. Personally, I am against the mandatory death penalty (buddhist). Maybe your seemingly lack of balls has influenced you so much that you start calling ppl names. IMO you are just someone who only knows how to give false accusations and such. Its amazing you decided to equate manhood to a discussion on a country. From here, at least I know someone who doesn't care abt the interest of the country at stake when you give an impression that having a trade embargo and FTA is no big deal. You are way worse than CSJ. By thinking US has only 2 parties and thinking that is enough, you are showing a big ignorance on a real democracy.
Anyway, back to the topic on CSJ before it becomes too Nguyen.
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I have nothing personally against Dr Chee but I think two things on the website of the party which he leads needs corrections and clarifications.Originally posted by depressed:on a side note, the SDP website is www.singaporedemocrat.org. Whether you are !CSJ or not, I am sure by reading the website with an unbiased thinking would help a lot on your opinion on him.
1) He (or rather, his youth wing head which I expect gets his sanction) claims that the SDP youth wing is the only opposition youth wing in Singapore. This is not true. Both Workers' Party and SPP have youth wings, and Workers' Party's youth wing even has an elected ex-co.
http://www.singaporedemocrat.org/youngdemocrats.html
2) His comparison of the late Mahatma Gandhi with himself is not going to go down well with some people. It is fine not to be popular (as he said in the "Singapore Rebel" film) but on the other hand you don't want to be unpopular.
http://www.singaporedemocrat.org/articlecsjandcivildisobedience.html
Regards -
Hi,Originally posted by sgdiehard:I hope Singaporean will have to weep anymore, but, sigh.....do we see any light ahead?
I think you should always remember this:
A voter who joins the PAP becomes "PAP". A voter who joins the Workers' Party or any other opposition party becomes "opposition". A PAP or opposition member who resigns from his party becomes a voter. And whatever you become (voter, PAP, opposition), you stay a Singaporean.
Regards -
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I don't sympathize with his cause and I don't connect with his sentiments when he goes namecalling, shouting, losing his temper etc.
I sympathize with JBJ though, feeling that he demonstrated the civilised fight against PAP.
He contested with them, and apparently he accepted the eventual outcome and showed that he can live with whatever hardships caused by fighting for politics through more civilised methods. He is a civilised testament of how we should let the people decide who to support instead. -
Originally posted by SGLoyalist:Hi,
I think you should always remember this:
A voter who joins the PAP becomes "PAP". A voter who joins the Workers' Party or any other opposition party becomes "opposition". A PAP or opposition member who resigns from his party becomes a voter. And whatever you become (voter, PAP, opposition), you stay a Singaporean.
Regards
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Originally posted by Nelstar:
x1.
I don't sympathize with his cause and I don't connect with his sentiments when he goes namecalling, shouting, losing his temper etc.
I sympathize with [b]JBJ though, feeling that he demonstrated the civilised fight against PAP.
He contested with them, and apparently he accepted the eventual outcome and showed that he can live with whatever hardships caused by fighting for politics through more civilised methods. He is a civilised testament of how we should let the people decide who to support instead. [/b] -
quote from Nelstar:
I don't sympathize with his cause and I don't connect with his sentiments when he goes namecalling, shouting, losing his temper etc.
While some of you might not like not like his behaviour of shouting and losing his temper e.t.c, why not look at it from another point of view? he might be very passionate abt Singapore, which would explain the above behaviour you mentioned. Its important that we have passionate ppl to work for the country instead of the PAP, whose impression to me is to leach our money and our labor, while treating us like slaves. Singapore, to me, is in a bad shape. Honestly, i feel our opposition isn't doing much simply because only 2 seats in parliament is being occupied at the moment. Chiam See Tong is old, so is JB Jeyaratnam. Opposition figures are few in Singapore simply because of the fear of defamation lawsuits, which some ppl see it as being lopsided. Not to mention their livelihood. At times like this, we cannot afford to lose more prominent opposition figures. The consequences of not having enough opposition is dire. GST has already rise to 5 per cent, electricity bills have gone up, but definitely not our money. Do we want to see GST rising to 7 per cent after the upcoming elections, water/electricity bills going up and yet we are unable to do anything? So instead of condemning CSJ, which might be seen as the weakest link among opposition figures, why not give him a chance and see what he do and view his argument from another perspective? if there are more opposition figures in parliament, the ppl, we could be sure that our views are not being treated like dirt, like the casino thing, where the PAP suka suka decided on the casino even tho there are a lot of ppl that are against it.
I sympathize with JBJ though, feeling that he demonstrated the civilised fight against PAP.
He contested with them, and apparently he accepted the eventual outcome and showed that he can live with whatever hardships caused by fighting for politics through more civilised methods. He is a civilised testament of how we should let the people decide who to support instead. -
Seriously speaking, I prefer quality over quantity. I prefer people who can nurture strong prominent figures in molding our future than a group of loud speaking figures who lacks self-control.Originally posted by depressed:quote from Nelstar:
While some of you might not like not like his behaviour of shouting and losing his temper e.t.c, why not look at it from another point of view? he might be very passionate abt Singapore, which would explain the above behaviour you mentioned. Its important that we have passionate ppl to work for the country instead of the PAP, whose impression to me is to leach our money and our labor, while treating us like slaves. Singapore, to me, is in a bad shape. Honestly, i feel our opposition isn't doing much simply because only 2 seats in parliament is being occupied at the moment. Chiam See Tong is old, so is JB Jeyaratnam. Opposition figures are few in Singapore simply because of the fear of defamation lawsuits, which some ppl see it as being lopsided. Not to mention their livelihood. At times like this, we cannot afford to lose more prominent opposition figures. The consequences of not having enough opposition is dire. GST has already rise to 5 per cent, electricity bills have gone up, but definitely not our money. Do we want to see GST rising to 7 per cent after the upcoming elections, water/electricity bills going up and yet we are unable to do anything? So instead of condemning CSJ, which might be seen as the weakest link among opposition figures, why not give him a chance and see what he do and view his argument from another perspective? if there are more opposition figures in parliament, the ppl, we could be sure that our views are not being treated like dirt, like the casino thing, where the PAP suka suka decided on the casino even tho there are a lot of ppl that are against it. -
I see your point but what is being discussed is not about what to do to get elected.Originally posted by SGLoyalist:Hi,
Well, to an extent it can go both ways. To have a higher chance of being elected before being actually elected, one needs to be seen to be representing the people, be it in form or substance.
However, if one politician is not elected after many elections, then it is a different story.
I can understand why Dr Chee moved from the groundwork path (for a short while under Mr Chiam) to the activist (a la Think Centre) path. Firstly, he will not be accepted enough to be elected. Secondly, he cannot run for elections now and grassroots work is pointless
Regards
Its about a statement that says that you represent the people even before you are elected.
The words "Representing" and "representation" connotes a choice being made. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
I hardly discuss singapore politics, not here not anywhere, where did you get the idea that "I took the PAP tack...."? When did I say that speaking for the ppl is "the only job of the MP"?
If it is my boss who can change the legislation on political party, it will be PAP and the other, may be a renegade party split from PAP. As for WP, Low Thia Khiang has good track record, Goh Meng Seng is pretty down to earth, seen so in his exchanges on the Casino issue, Sylvia Lim is approachable, the friendly type, no air and she has a pretty face. As for the rest, especially the young ones, I will see how they grow, before I decide if and how I should put in a word to my “bosses”.
You can discuss in details with Robert Teh about Democracy. I am out of this. Interestingly, with the little exchanges with Low, Goh and Lim, I never heard them talking about democracy.
I voted twice in my life and I voted for the opposition, just for the sake of having an opposition. As I grow, with family and kids, as I see more places outside Singapore, I don think I know more about politics or democracy, but I do know I will not vote for the sake of voting anymore. PAP is not strong because the opposition is weak and the opposition cannot hope to be elected because of a weak PAP, because they are not. Lambasting them will not make them weak.
I hope Singaporean will have to weep anymore, but, sigh.....do we see any light ahead? -
Agreed. You can suggest that the PAP remove 50-60 of their seats and just leave the ministers. I prefer strong prominent figures moulding our future than a group of backbenchers who lack the courage to speak up for the people.Originally posted by Nelstar:Seriously speaking, I prefer quality over quantity. I prefer people who can nurture strong prominent figures in molding our future than a group of loud speaking figures who lacks self-control. -
Even if the 50-60 seats are vacant today, there are not enough opposition figures to fill the seats, let alone strong prominent figures, and can't possible dream of any figures who can mould our future. sigh.....Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:Agreed. You can suggest that the PAP remove 50-60 of their seats and just leave the ministers. I prefer strong prominent figures moulding our future than a group of backbenchers who lack the courage to speak up for the people. -
I admit I don't think very highly of CSJ too. However, I must say that he does have the guts to raise issues others would keep away from. He might be sue, made bankrupt and kick out of parliment but damn.. it would be so fun to watch parliment with him around.
Parliment would get a higher rating than surviours with CSJ around. I say let's vote for him and see what dirt he can dig up when he gets access to all those restricted information us commoners would never get to see! -
Hi,Originally posted by Chia Ti Lik:I see your point but what is being discussed is not about what to do to get elected.
Its about a statement that says that you represent the people even before you are elected.
The words "Representing" and "representation" connotes a choice being made.
Yes, perhaps what I meant is to reflect the people's sentiments before getting elected and represent the people after getting elected.
Regards -
Hi,Originally posted by anonymouscoward:I admit I don't think very highly of CSJ too. However, I must say that he does have the guts to raise issues others would keep away from. He might be sue, made bankrupt and kick out of parliment but damn.. it would be so fun to watch parliment with him around.
Parliment would get a higher rating than surviours with CSJ around. I say let's vote for him and see what dirt he can dig up when he gets access to all those restricted information us commoners would never get to see!
The tricky part about this is that elected politicians have one more concern other than Parliament - they have the town council in their hands.
In fact, the town council is a bigger stake in getting elected and re-elected than Parliament.
From my analysis, I do not think Dr Chee or SDP have a lot of support by people with the expertise to run a town council if he gets elected. He may face a challenge getting elected or re-elected if he gets elected.
Knowing Singaporeans, while a number of them may want Dr Chee in Parliament, they in general will not want their town council to be the one least managed. When push comes to shove among Singaporeans, Dr Chee may find it a hard time to get in.
Regards -
Hi,Originally posted by Nelstar:Seriously speaking, I prefer quality over quantity. I prefer people who can nurture strong prominent figures in molding our future than a group of loud speaking figures who lacks self-control.
I don't disagree with you, but in that case, you will have to live with walkovers for a while
Regards