Hotel Homeless - Bright Lights, Bleak City
-
Originally posted by Fatum:
I had just talked to a cleaning lady, mid-40s, who were jobless 2 years before landed to her current part-time assignment. Working 2 hours each day for 6 days for $200. I didn't ask on her transport expenses.
[b]I suppose we have to decide as a society how much help do we want to extend to these unfortunate ones, and more importanly how much of a safety net do we want in our society ? Obviously a social security system a la USA is out of question, certain groups of people in Singapore may simply choose to leach off society then, as they do over here, able bodied people most of them, if millions of Americans are on welfare because they can't find a job, how do you explain the millions of illegals who sneak into the country for the jobs that they couldn't find enough workers for then ? ...
and of course, such huge social spending comes with a heavy cost, would you be willing to pay 40% income tax ? ... or 14% sales tax ? (7% GST, 7% PST) .... that's what I'm paying now ..... to feed a bunch of "society's unfortunate", some of whom live in the same apartment block as i do, spending their days drinking coffee at the cafe across the road ... able bodied all ...
at the risk of sounding cynical, we do have to realise that no matter how successful or wealthy a society is, there will always be failures in the society, this, is simple social dynamics, for certain issues, there's only so much we can do as a society, we can legislate laws to enable parents to sue their children for support, but we can't prevent children from abandoning hapless old folks, there's nothing we can do to ensure that no lame and maimed exist in a society (unless you're Hitler !) ... Frankly, though, i'm not quite sure if there's a root solution to this issue. What do you guys think ? ...
b]
I wonder how's $200 each month could alleviate her financial woes (if there is any). It seems she has strong intent to better her lifestyles anyway.
Is she eligible to any social benefits? What are they?
She is a citizen, a truly born and bred Singapoean.
If we are willing to spend a million on a foreigner for A-star scholarship, more should be done on her. -
yes, I would say that the plight of lower educated and lower qualified workers are the biggest challenge facing us now, but I'd still say heavy social spending is not the way to go, the attendent social cost is simply too great, and to go down that path from which we can never return would be suicide (as i mentioned in my thread, would anyone in Singapore today be willing to pay 40% income tax and 14% GST to pay for social welfare ? ... )Originally posted by iamgoondu:I had just talked to a cleaning lady, mid-40s, who were jobless 2 years before landed to her current part-time assignment. Working 2 hours each day for 6 days for $200. I didn't ask on her transport expenses.
I wonder how's $200 each month could alleviate her financial woes (if there is any). It seems she has strong intent to better her lifestyles anyway.
Is she eligible to any social benefits? What are they?
She is a citizen, a truly born and bred Singapoean.
If we are willing to spend a million on a foreigner for A-star scholarship, more should be done on her.
as for foreign talents, I realised where I am now, that we are not the only country engaged in global talent hunting alone, in this global driven economy, a country's wealth is no longer solely determined by the amout of natural resources (a non issue for Singapore anyways), I have professors from Mexico, Germany, Poland, Israel, Iran, China, Ukraine, Nigeria teaching me, and for science majors like me, the local goverment is actively encouraging me to stay, (of course, ironically, should I decide to stay on here after graduation, I would be a "foreign talent" too, and yes, some people here are very resentful of FTs also ). FTs are an inevitable neccessity in this knowledge driven economy, unfortunately
so where does that leaves us ? ... now that the salad days of the mid 80s to 90s are well and truly over, we have no choice but to swallow some "bitterness" as the economy structrally re-adjust, to the un-initiated, structural re-adjustment means the loss of certain types of jobs that'll never return, in our case low tech assembly lines for instance, pressing widgets together etc, all these jobs have now gone to China, or better yet, been replaced by robots, these types of jobs won't come back even when the economy recovers. The rise of China is a reality, the evolving knowledge driven economy is a reality, and whinning and bitching at the goverment won't help, because there isn't much the goverment can do really,
what are we to do as individuals ? I like the term "life long employability", that would mean having skill sets that would make you attractive to employers, for those chappies who like to tell themselves that paper qualitications doesn't really much, I'd say, don't kid yourselves, the days of O level or A level managers are over, I remember back in my poly days lecturers telling us that with a diploma, after a while, you can become an "engineer", I learnt much to my chargrin, that in most other countries, being an "Engineer" means that you have sat for the Professional Engineering Board Exams and have a P.E on your name card ! and for that matter, most "engineers" overseas do have it ! Remember the Nicoll Highway collaspe ? ... why do we have an Ang Moh Engineer signing the plans ? but locals to execute them ? ... of course it would be nice to have a local doing the signing, but there simply isn't many Singaporean P.E around in the first place !
That would be for the younger chappies, chappies like me, what about the older folks then, like the middle aged lady you mention (and my mother too I would add, she got retrenched 10 yrs ago after the company she was working in as an admin supervisor changed hands, and being middle aged and no degree, has been a house wife since ), I confess that I have no satisfactory answer, yes, some companies certainly do practise agism (along with sexism and racism for some too), but I'd like to warn everyone that things will probably get worse, the wage cost in Singapore is still high compared to other developed economies in the region, take Hong Kong and Taiwan for instance, I was shocked to learn that the expected starting pay of a fresh grad in Hong Kong would be even slightly lower than what a fresh poly grad in Singapore can expect to earn ! and because we're still some distance off from that point, I think the income gap in Singapore will only widen. -
What would be the impact in not signing up with 1 '1-million' A-STAR scholar? Would it set our economy by 0.001 percentage point? What would be the estimated returns from him? What could happen to him if his '1-million' scholarship was rejected?
How can we spent that '1-million' on social welfare?
We can save lifes!
Remember the fire incident in Bukit Batok? A old malay man was burnt dead, cos he has no elecctricity at home, and had to resort to burn candles. And now his wife had to live by herself.
And remember the sister-brother in Hougang. They had survived on no water and electricity for many years. They were even evicted out from their 4-room flat.
There is a sayings that say 'xian you jia, hou you guo' (a nation is built upon many families), I am afraid a nation would crumble if it couldn't look after his subjects well.
I am not requesting for similar welfare as currently enjoyed by the EU citizens, and I agreeed such social benefits would burden even the future generations. However if we are prudent on our expenditures, we need not even have to raise our income tax by 1%, and yet still have our unfortunates, unpriviledged well taken care of.
Remember our 7 wonders? Remember the golden handshake given to HDB staffs? Remember our explanades? Remember our NLB?
And sad to say, I have yet to contribute a cent to NKF. I refuse to donate cos I always feel that part of our government responsibility or task were to look after the unfortunate.
Though I had never donated a cent to NKF, I am willing to give $1 or $2 to strangers who beg for monies from me. -
What REALLY worries me is that our cost of living is moving in the opposite direction of our shrinking income. Prices, fares keep moving upwards while we're being told to accept less and less pay while working even longer hours. How much longer before something gives way? During times of economic downturn or turmoil, as people become increasingly frustrated and angry, social faultlines will tend to surface.Originally posted by Fatum:but I'd like to warn everyone that things will probably get worse, the wage cost in Singapore is still high compared to other developed economies in the region, take Hong Kong and Taiwan for instance, I was shocked to learn that the expected starting pay of a fresh grad in Hong Kong would be even slightly lower than what a fresh poly grad in Singapore can expect to earn ! and because we're still some distance off from that point, I think the income gap in Singapore will only widen.
-
Our leaders are aware of the problem...but like every good businessman, they try to push the limits and see how it goes.
Like a sponge carrying water.....
Sometimes it works (on compliant citizens like us) and sometimes you get Riots or strikes (Think HK and France)
-
How long more will Singaporeans turn a blind eye to the problem of the homeless here? When will we Singaporeans start to care enough to open our houses to house all these people rather than talk about it?
-
How long more will people blabber rubbish and suggest nonsensical ideas?Originally posted by Salman:How long more will Singaporeans turn a blind eye to the problem of the homeless here? When will we Singaporeans start to care enough to open our houses to house all these people rather than talk about it?
What does it take to penetrate the armour-rich shells that protect their so-called brain?
Open our doors to strangers? Shelter the homeless under our roofs? Since the govt is so quick to deny their existence, will they conveniently prefer to transfer the problem to taxpayers who don't earn 6 figure salaries and are not even the cause of the problem? How is that the solution?
Suggestions? Plenty of suggestions already in this thread. Or are you visually AND mentally impaired as well? -
Did the govt deny tehir existence? Where? Whenj? How?
Since you see the problem ,why just talk abt it? Why not you be the simple solution? Don't you care enough for the homeless? Why be a hypocrite? -
Evidently, you never bother to read my posts. Why i bother to repond to you is beyond me.Originally posted by Salman:Did the govt deny tehir existence? Where? Whenj? How?
Since you see the problem ,why just talk abt it? Why not you be the simple solution? Don't you care enough for the homeless? Why be a hypocrite? -
Salman,Originally posted by Salman:My American friend is so surprised he can't find homeless in Singapore.
Homeless people are housed in homes in Singapore by the govt so they are rare in Singapore. Some choose to live homeless because they like it.
You need help to convince others of this claim.
I, ObviousMan, am glad to help you on this.
I took a look at the photos, read your post above and immediately i was convinced by the power of your claim. In Singapore, almost everyone has a flat mah, so how can anyone be poor or worse still, be homeless? This is why the "New Poor" idea sprouted by opposition is rubbish.
Look at the homeless people in the photos --- why are they homeless? They must have sold off their homes, so they might be homeless but not poor. In fact, they must be the anti-thesis of the "New Poor", or what i call the "New Rich". Sell off your home and be rich -- this must be the solution to the "New Poor" problem.
"Some chose to be homeless because they like it." This is most brilliant!
No wonder PAP is keen to upgrade East Coast Park -- it must be in preparation for those who enjoy sleeping in the open after selling off their homes. Why, they might even make some money by charging these "New Rich" a daily fee!
With shrinking incomes and ever higher costs of living, i am sure this solution to the "New Poor" problem is going to be popular in the future. What wonderful insights you have -- i am truly impressed by you, Salman! -
Really? How many of these new poor are there in Singapore? 2? 20? 200? 2000?
Why don't you open your door to just one of them if you care so much? -
Enough to get an MP to talk about them.Originally posted by Salman:Really? How many of these new poor are there in Singapore? 2? 20? 200? 2000?
Why don't you open your door to just one of them if you care so much?
Probably more coming.
You work at grassroot level but don't know got this problem?
What do you do there -- talk cock, lim kopi, sing karaoke and steal stationery? -
Enough? How many? How can you really care when you don't even know how many? Not when you don't open your home for one of them.
-
Ignore him if you guys want to have a fruitful discussion.Don't get sidetracked.
-
To some extent, Salman is right in that technically speaking, Singapore does not have a problem with homeless persons. The Destitute Persons Act [CAP 78] takes care of that:
"3. —(1) Any public officer acting under the direction of the Director or any police officer may take in his charge any destitute person and deliver him to the custody of the Director.
(2) If the Director has reasonable cause to believe that any person so delivered into his custody has no visible means of subsistence, he may arrange for that person to be temporarily admitted into a welfare home until an inquiry has been held by him.
(3) Every such inquiry shall be completed within a period of 30 days from the date of that personÂ’s admission into a welfare home such further period, not exceeding 30 days, as the Minister may approve.
(4) If after holding such inquiry the Director is satisfied that that person is a destitute person within the meaning of this Act, he may by warrant under his hand require that person to reside in a welfare home. "
So if a person is really down and out with no means of subsistence, he will be confined by law in a welfare home, whether he likes it or not. So nobody can be really homeless in Singapore. If he cannot find a roof to sleep under, the courts will provide one for him, until his dying day. -
So when the govt does nothing abt the homeless, these people complain.
When govt house them in welafre homes for their good, they also complain.
What do you think shld be the solution? -
Why don't you ask MP Dr Tan Cheng Bock about it?Originally posted by Salman:Enough? How many? How can you really care when you don't even know how many? Not when you don't open your home for one of them.
How can he raise this issue without saying how many are there in Singapore?
It is damm easy to get the figures, just ask HDB or the electricity companies for it. But is it wise to report on it? What if the figures shows a rising trend?
Would that show that the opposition was right all along?
Would it be too distressing for Singaporeans to read about it?
Also, why don't you go tell your MP that you have the solution to the problem Dr Tan raised? Just send all the homeless people to his home lah! You are a genius, Salman! -
Do not confusel concepts with reality.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:To some extent, Salman is right in that technically speaking, Singapore does not have a problem with homeless persons. The Destitute Persons Act [CAP 78] takes care of that:
"3. —(1) Any public officer acting under the direction of the Director or any police officer may take in his charge any destitute person and deliver him to the custody of the Director.
(2) If the Director has reasonable cause to believe that any person so delivered into his custody has no visible means of subsistence, he may arrange for that person to be temporarily admitted into a welfare home until an inquiry has been held by him.
(3) Every such inquiry shall be completed within a period of 30 days from the date of that personÂ’s admission into a welfare home such further period, not exceeding 30 days, as the Minister may approve.
(4) If after holding such inquiry the Director is satisfied that that person is a destitute person within the meaning of this Act, he may by warrant under his hand require that person to reside in a welfare home. "
So if a person is really down and out with no means of subsistence, he will be confined by law in a welfare home, whether he likes it or not. So nobody can be really homeless in Singapore. If he cannot find a roof to sleep under, the courts will provide one for him, until his dying day.
Technically speaking, Singaporeans have elected the longest serving unelected people's president. In reality, there was no other choice. -
Which means you don't know lah.Originally posted by ObviousMan:Why don't you ask MP Dr Tan Cheng Bock about it?
How can he raise this issue without saying how many are there in Singapore?
It is damm easy to get the figures, just ask HDB or the electricity companies for it. But is it wise to report on it? What if the figures shows a rising trend?
Would that show that the opposition was right all along?
Would it be too distressing for Singaporeans to read about it?
Also, why don't you go tell your MP that you have the solution to the problem Dr Tan raised? Just send all the homeless people to his home lah! You are a genius, Salman!
Seems like nobody knows. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
bingo! good one
How long more will people blabber rubbish and suggest nonsensical ideas?
What does it take to penetrate the armour-rich shells that protect their so-called brain?
Open our doors to strangers? Shelter the homeless under our roofs? Since the govt is so quick to deny their existence, will they conveniently prefer to transfer the problem to taxpayers who don't earn 6 figure salaries and are not even the cause of the problem? How is that the solution?
Suggestions? Plenty of suggestions already in this thread. Or are you[b] visually AND mentally impaired as well?
[/b] -
well ObviousMan, i must really take my hats off you ... you sure are good at this. : )Originally posted by ObviousMan:Also, why don't you go tell your MP that you have the solution to the problem Dr Tan raised? Just send all the homeless people to his home lah! You are a genius, Salman! -
You people don't care enough to know the 'problem' and don't care enoughj to provide a solution.
Good for you hypocrites. -
Knowing how many homeless there are determines the severity of the problem, but as long as one can prove that there is one homeless soul, there is already a problem.Originally posted by Salman:But how can you know if it is really a problem if you do not know how many homeless are there in Singapore?
You mean you dunno? You ignore the 'problem'? -
Then everything is a problem. I have a grain of white hair, that is also a problem and I demand the govt solve the problem.
If there is only one homeless cahp, then the problem is easily solved by you opening your home to him. What are you waiting for my friend. -
Obviously there cannot be just one homeless chap. Homelessness is a problem because it indicates the absence of shelter, a basic human need. White hair indicates no absence of any need on the other hand, so your analogy is invalid.Originally posted by Salman:Then everything is a problem. I have a grain of white hair, that is also a problem and I demand the govt solve the problem.
If there is only one homeless cahp, then the problem is easily solved by you opening your home to him. What are you waiting for my friend.
But anyway, it is not so easy to get people to open their homes to someone. Solving homelessness does not just include providing a roof; it also involves paying for that person's food, water and transport consumption, not to mention healthcare bills (which are rather high). As it happens, my domestic finances are rather tight; I cannot afford to house someone else. And I'm from the middle-class, which likely means that most heartlanders porbably cannot take on an extra family member.