Western governments are quiet about CIA torture techniques
-
An alternative illustration in a world without torture:Originally posted by pikamaster:The problem is that: if u torture terrorists, they will give you the info u want, BUT that may not be the correct/ accurate information.
Let me illustrate:-
...
the pikamaster (who prays for the eradication of torture and the softening of men's hearts)
CIA: Are you a terrorist?
TERRORIST: I am a tool of God! I only answer to Him!
CIA: I see. Where did you get the bomb from?
TERRORIST: Go to hell.
CIA: I'll consider that... But please tell me where is the bomb? I need to save a few hundred innocent lives...
TERRORIST: You're harrassing me. That's a form of torture!
CIA: I'm sorry. I'll stop that. But you still have to tell me where is the bomb, please?
TERRORIST: You're not respecting my religion. You're insensitive to minorities and your seditious remarks are offensive. My lawyer says that I need not tell you anything at all.
CIA: Please don't sue me...
TERRORIST: Now you're trying to use reverse psychology on me... That too is a form of torture...
CIA: ok ok fine. Want a drink? Coffee anyone?
TERRORIST: Water treatment! I knew it! You're threatening to torture me with water treatment!!!
CIA: ...
[Result? bomb goes off in Chinatown, kills hundreds on innocent people. Terrorist never admitted to planting the bomb, gets off scot free. Interogator gets sued by terrorist for slander, defamation, harassment and torture.] -
The Japs were torturing ppl for fun. Throwing babies into the air and stabbing them with a bayonet is not torture.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:That means the Japanese have rights to torture us during WWII?
I don't agree with you. By torturing them, you will only make the terrorists angrier and the attacks will be worse and more. Is there a need to use to hard tactics to scare them into giving out information? There are other ways to do so.
Raping women randomly is not exactly for retrieval of information.
The water treatment initially was for information, yes. And they were amazingly effective when employed against chinese civillians! Those tortured told them a lot right?
What other ways are there to find out information when all you have is an intelligence vacuum and you have about 48 hours before a bomb goes off???
Pleading with the suspected parties? Payment that can be used to buy more bombs and rifles?
Inteligence is not as simple as depicted on James Bond, Alias, "Coleteral Damage" or any other shows in hollywood. -
Told them a lot or told them what they wanted to hear? Like many said, people will say whatever it takes to alleviate torture, including lies. How do you ascertain the truth? Is torture the only answer? And the japs were sadistic jailers whose only interest was to torture their prisoners to death. Prying information from them was only 1% of their aim. They expanded their torture to slave labour and experimentation in biological warfare with human guinea pigs.Originally posted by SilverPal:The water treatment initially was for information, yes. And they were amazingly effective when employed against chinese civillians! Those tortured told them a lot right?
Comparing medieval dark ages to modern times is hardly an apple-apple comparison. Millions were persecuted and hanged under the pretext of crimes against the state, charged without proof, tortured to confess to crimes they didn't commit. Many did it in the name of religion and blind faith with 'God as their witness'. So really, no attempt to separate truth from lies was evident. With rumours, heretics and falsified information, people were 'tortured' into signing a prepared confession, hung/crucified/beheaded to applease the masses.
And what have we merely succeeded in doing? Make no mistake, we have simply prolonged and refined torture methods well into the 21st century, with exactly the same results as before: lies and truths mixed together in an inseparable c o c ktail of cacophony. -
Don't ever have the childish idea that if you stop killing and torturing terrorists, you can appease them and they will come to like you and stop their terrorism.
Singapore didn't do a thing to them and yet they planned to bomb Yishun MRT even before 911. This means war on us and we should not be shy about killing or torturing them.
Look, if the Americans are shy about torturing terrorists, they can outsource it to the Egyptians and Jordanians who will do a faster job anytime.
Anyway, there are many ways to break a person psychologically w/o maiming them. Just turn on the aircon, splash cold water and rotate interrogators. Work the knuckles and punch or slap them once in a while. Anyone will crack, its only a matter of time. Don't worry, they won't die. -
Only a perverted zealot would comtemplate torture on a scale you're suggesting. Outsource to jordanians and egyptians? You think of this as some kind of business transaction?Originally posted by Salman:Don't ever have the childish idea that if you stop killing and torturing terrorists, you can appease them and they will come to like you and stop their terrorism.
Singapore didn't do a thing to them and yet they planned to bomb Yishun MRT even before 911. This means war on us and we should not be shy about killing or torturing them.
Look, if the Americans are shy about torturing terrorists, they can outsource it to the Egyptians and Jordanians who will do a faster job anytime.
Anyway, there are many ways to break a person psychologically w/o maiming them. Just turn on the aircon, splash cold water and rotate interrogators. Work the knuckles and punch or slap them once in a while. Anyone will crack, its only a matter of time. Don't worry, they won't die.
Anyway, it's a waste of time deliberating with you. Go enjoy your various forms of torture....i'd love to see you trade roles with the tortured and watch you cry for your mummy. -
You are right of course. Alternatively, what other ways can we ascertain intelligence from people involved in terrorist activities?Originally posted by BillyBong:Told them a lot or told them what they wanted to hear? Like many said, people will say whatever it takes to alleviate torture, including lies. How do you ascertain the truth? Is torture the only answer? And the japs were sadistic jailers whose only interest was to torture their prisoners to death. Prying information from them was only 1% of their aim. They expanded their torture to slave labour and experimentation in biological warfare with human guinea pigs.
Comparing medieval dark ages to modern times is hardly an apple-apple comparison. Millions were persecuted and hanged under the pretext of crimes against the state, charged without proof, tortured to confess to crimes they didn't commit. Many did it in the name of religion and blind faith with 'God as their witness'. So really, no attempt to separate truth from lies was evident. With rumours, heretics and falsified information, people were 'tortured' into signing a prepared confession, hung/crucified/beheaded to applease the masses.
And what have we merely succeeded in doing? Make no mistake, we have simply prolonged and refined torture methods well into the 21st century, with exactly the same results as before: lies and truths mixed together in an inseparable c o c ktail of cacophony.
The spying agencies of the western world encounter great difficulties attempting to iniltrate into known terrorist networks. Many agents die trying.
Paying for information is as filmsy as torture since we know people will do anything for money. Some crackpot will give falseified information just for the money and all we have achieved is a richer terrorist network.
Truth serums are not totally accurate, nor are lie detectors.
Right now, despite all the safeguards in the world, all the best agents in the world, all the crack military units in the world, all the education in the world, terrorism is still a threat.
If you have any suggestions for retrieving information, do share with us. Maybe once convinced, I change my views on torture and terrorism. -
I think the americans are already outsourcing the torture function to other countries...Originally posted by Salman:Don't ever have the childish idea that if you stop killing and torturing terrorists, you can appease them and they will come to like you and stop their terrorism.
Singapore didn't do a thing to them and yet they planned to bomb Yishun MRT even before 911. This means war on us and we should not be shy about killing or torturing them.
Look, if the Americans are shy about torturing terrorists, they can outsource it to the Egyptians and Jordanians who will do a faster job anytime.
Anyway, there are many ways to break a person psychologically w/o maiming them. Just turn on the aircon, splash cold water and rotate interrogators. Work the knuckles and punch or slap them once in a while. Anyone will crack, its only a matter of time. Don't worry, they won't die. -
though i don't believe in going round bashing Australia, i somehow feel that it tends to behave like a bully whenever we or other SEA countries try its citizens. i doubt it will behave that way if it were the other bigger countries trying its people.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Where are the human rights activists who protest about the death penalty in Singapore but are silent about the torture techniques used by the CIA? Why is Australia so quiet about the abuse of human rights and violation of international law committed in CIA secret prisons in Europe? -
Silverpal,
The problem is that you are assuming the guy you are torturing for information is a terrorist. What if he is innocent? In Iraq, the US arrested lots of innocents, tricked by enemies of the victims caught up in clan feuds. So you are going to torture all these people who have never committed a crime?
I have no problem with severe punishments on convicted criminals, be it death penalty or judicial amputation. But you must make a distinction between the the guilty and the innocent. -
What if the guy was captured caught communicating terror messages to known terrorists or caught with explosives or caught fighting for terrorists? Can CIA then torture them for information? Thats what we want to know. Are you saying they cannot do it?
-
The one source that has worked over the last 5 centuries is 'informants'.Originally posted by SilverPal:You are right of course. Alternatively, what other ways can we ascertain intelligence from people involved in terrorist activities?
The spying agencies of the western world encounter great difficulties attempting to iniltrate into known terrorist networks. Many agents die trying.
Paying for information is as filmsy as torture since we know people will do anything for money. Some crackpot will give falseified information just for the money and all we have achieved is a richer terrorist network.
Truth serums are not totally accurate, nor are lie detectors.
Right now, despite all the safeguards in the world, all the best agents in the world, all the crack military units in the world, all the education in the world, terrorism is still a threat.
If you have any suggestions for retrieving information, do share with us. Maybe once convinced, I change my views on torture and terrorism.
In the aftermath of Singapore's capitulation to the Japs, dozens of informants, probably chinese turncoats themselves, ratted out the numerous insurgent rebels for a fee. Most of the time, they fingered the patriots correctly.
The watergate scandal which impeached ex-President Nixon came from a close source and informant called 'deep throat'. Information provided was extremely accurate and was the primary cause of Nixon's downfall.
The israeli Mossad uses dozens of agents to inflitrate palestinian circles, obtaining vital information in their 'assassination' strategy of hitting key 'packages'. As much as you hate their kill-first-ask-questions-later tactics, you have to give them the thumbs up for success rate. They've effectively got Hamas, Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad visibly shaken everytime they score a hit.
Getting close to the people responsible and knowing them is probably the best way to obtain the information. It isn't fullproof...but then again, so is torture. -
The Israelis do torture too. Thats how they get their informants in the first place.
The prophet pubh himself administered torture in war so don't me that torture doesn't work. -
I agree with Salman. You do not talk human rights with ppl who do not practice human rights. I say torture must be accpeted, as I believe the application of it may produce information that goes on to save the lives of innocent ppl. The issue should be how a mechanism is put in place to ensure that those who have the power to apply torture, do not absuse it. Of course, there lies the problem; dealing with shadowy organizations like the CIA and other intelligence organizations.
-
What's the point of torturing people if they do not carry the information? Terrorist cells are programmed to work independently and is completed isolated from other cells. They are transmitted information from an undisclosed control source that even they have no knowledge. In most cases, the target, H-hour and mode of release is only issued a few hours before the hit. That's how they make life so difficult for the CIA.Originally posted by Quincey:I agree with Salman. You do not talk human rights with ppl who do not practice human rights. I say torture must be accpeted, as I believe the application of it may produce information that goes on to save the lives of innocent ppl. The issue should be how a mechanism is put in place to ensure that those who have the power to apply torture, do not absuse it. Of course, there lies the problem; dealing with shadowy organizations like the CIA and other intelligence organizations.
It's all very clandestine. These people aren't stupid. They know that the less info shared means less chance of a leak should any be caught. And many ARE being caught. In this case, torture has limited value. -
notice that billybong and ganag keeps avoiding the question. what abt known terrorists? Is it not good for CIA to torture them for information?
chicken run run run run. cluck cluck cluck cluck
What a bunch of dirty hypocrites. -
That can be a dangerous slippery slope to take...Originally posted by Salman:notice that billybong and ganag keeps avoiding the question. what abt known terrorists? Is it not good for CIA to torture them for information?
To the apartheid South African government, Neslon Mandela was a terrorist. To the Chinese, those who want independence for Tibet are terrorists and to the Russians, the Chechens are terrorists. To the Israelis, the Palestinians are terrorists and to any dictator, whoever opposes him is a terrorist.
So you would advocate torturing all of them? -
torture works for extracting information eg. the byzantines tortured captured turkish POWS and extracted valuable information without which constantinople would have fallen sooner. for those who talk so much about banning torture, do they have a more potent method of extracting valuable information needed to save lives or is their talk merely rubbish? if you want to walk the walk you must know how to talk the talk, lets see what viable option these idiots have to get information out of die-hard terrorist scum.
-
do you understand politics in the first place? a ruler cannot allow any opposition if he is to impose his rule efficiently. a country cannot be allowed to split or chaos will occur. think for a damned minute, would a seperated china with hundreds of states (you've seen the chaos of the spring-autum period, the post-imperial warlord infested "democratic period) unable to fend for themselves economically and militarily or would a united, strong but iron-handed china be a safe haven for terrorists and other sinister inidviduals or groups? in this world there is no perfect solution, only the lesser of 2 evils, like it or not, you ain't got not much of a choice.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:That can be a dangerous slippery slope to take...
To the apartheid South African government, Neslon Mandela was a terrorist. To the Chinese, those who want independence for Tibet are terrorists and to the Russians, the Chechens are terrorists. To the Israelis, the Palestinians are terrorists and to any dictator, whoever opposes him is a terrorist.
So you would advocate torturing all of them? -
so mushroom thinks Al Qaeda is freedom fighting. shame on him.
-
I see your point and agree that torture/conviction of innocent parties caught up in internal feuds is a major problem. They have not committed any crime and hold no useful information, therefore torturing them is superfluous and wrong.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Silverpal,
The problem is that you are assuming the guy you are torturing for information is a terrorist. What if he is innocent? In Iraq, the US arrested lots of innocents, tricked by enemies of the victims caught up in clan feuds. So you are going to torture all these people who have never committed a crime?
I have no problem with severe punishments on convicted criminals, be it death penalty or judicial amputation. But you must make a distinction between the the guilty and the innocent.
What about convicted criminals that are part of a ring of... say... terrorist? Substantial evidence have been produced to show that they are part of a terrorist network. We now want to know other members of his network (his contact man and his collegues that worked with him on terrorist projects). Is it right to torture him for the information? -
You brought up a good point. I remember reading that the CIA had a lot of trouble infiltrating into Al Queda. Apparently (I can't remember the source I read it from) the top people in al queda surround themselves with a select loyal group of aides whom you can't pay for information. They believe very strongly in their cause.Originally posted by BillyBong:The one source that has worked over the last 5 centuries is 'informants'.
In the aftermath of Singapore's capitulation to the Japs, dozens of informants, probably chinese turncoats themselves, ratted out the numerous insurgent rebels for a fee. Most of the time, they fingered the patriots correctly.
The watergate scandal which impeached ex-President Nixon came from a close source and informant called 'deep throat'. Information provided was extremely accurate and was the primary cause of Nixon's downfall.
The israeli Mossad uses dozens of agents to inflitrate palestinian circles, obtaining vital information in their 'assassination' strategy of hitting key 'packages'. As much as you hate their kill-first-ask-questions-later tactics, you have to give them the thumbs up for success rate. They've effectively got Hamas, Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad visibly shaken everytime they score a hit.
Getting close to the people responsible and knowing them is probably the best way to obtain the information. It isn't fullproof...but then again, so is torture.
Most operatives get killed when trying to infiltrate this particular network, that's the reason for the sketchy intelligence coming from al queda.
Also, most terrorist network follow a "divide and conquer" management via cells. Each cell does not know who or what another cell is doing or even if their terrorist attack is being coordinated with other cells. If you can capture or infiltrate one cell, you still have an intelligence vacuum from the other cells.
All these setbacks caused the "informant" methods to be rather problematic and ineffective. Of course if informants can become more effective at information gathering and allow governments to study and preempt senseless loss of lives, so much so that torture becomes redundant or less effective in comparison, then I say abolish torture.
But until that day comes, torture is still the sensible, low cost, high yield method of choice. -
Hi, torturing them as an example to other dissenters in my opinion is wrong. Torture for vindictive or punitive purposes, although having great emotional value, should not be done.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:That can be a dangerous slippery slope to take...
To the apartheid South African government, Neslon Mandela was a terrorist. To the Chinese, those who want independence for Tibet are terrorists and to the Russians, the Chechens are terrorists. To the Israelis, the Palestinians are terrorists and to any dictator, whoever opposes him is a terrorist.
So you would advocate torturing all of them?
Torture is to break the spirit of the detainee. Once the detainee has lost his will to resist, he will be more likely to spill the beans. Simply asking him in a criminal court or shaming him in public will not work.
Bottomline, its all about the information. -
Aren't we being rather naive to think that governments will use torture 'in good faith' when it is necessary to protect the wider population? What is to stop them from calling everyone they don't like a terrorist? It should be easier to do that than to label a political opponent a homosexual, and even that has been done.Originally posted by SilverPal:Hi, torturing them as an example to other dissenters in my opinion is wrong. Torture for vindictive or punitive purposes, although having great emotional value, should not be done.
And what if you are wrong about the terrorist suspect? What if you have tortured an innocent man by mistake? If I were the victim, I want to torture my tormenters back in return. It's only fair. Perhaps the law should alllow that too?
No, I still favour the legal process. Once you have convicted them as terrorists, I don;t care whether you hang them or castrate them, as far as the law allows it. But no torture before trial. -
Haha, torture more or less started and roll-balled into the radicalizing of the Islamist movement. It begins with this man called Sayed Qutb. He was a functionary of Egypt's Ministry of Education, sent to US while on a scholarship to study the educational system. As he travelled around, he became increasingly disenchanted with America. The very things that, on the surface, made US look prosperous and happy, Qutb saw as signs of an inner corruption and decay. He perceived crassness, materialism and selfish individualism among other stuffs of those lines.
So he travelled back to Egypt and was determined to control those forces in his own country. His vision was to have all the modern benefits of Western science and technology, but a more political Islam to provide a better moral framework. Then Qutb realized that the individualist culture was already spreading in Egypt, trapping the masses. "What was needed, he believed, was an élite, a vanguard who could see through these illusions of freedom, just as he had in America, and who would then lead the masses to realize the higher truth.
On his return, Qutb became politically active in Egypt. He joined a group called the Muslim Brotherhood, who wanted Islam to play a major role in governing Egyptian society. And in 1952, the Brotherhood supported the revolution led by General Nasser that overthrew the last remnants of British rule. But Nasser very quickly made it clear that the new Egypt was going to be a secular society that emulated Western morals. He quickly forged an alliance with America. And the CIA came to Egypt to organize security agencies for the new régime. Faced with this, the Muslim Brotherhood began to organize against Nasser, and in 1954 Qutb and other leading members of the Brotherhood were arrested by the security services. What then happened to Qutb was going to have consequences for the whole world.
In the 1970s, a film was made, that showed what happened in Nasser's main prison in the '50s and '60s. It was based on the testimony of survivors. Torturers who had been trained by the CIA unleashed an orgy of violence against Muslim Brotherhood members accused of plotting to overthrow Nasser. At one point, Qutb was covered with animal fat and locked in a cell with dogs trained to attack humans. Inside the cell, he had a heart attack.
Qutb survived, but the torture had a powerful radicalizing effect on his ideas. Up to this point, he had believed that the Western secular ideas simply created the selfishness and the isolation he had seen in the United States. But the torture, he believed, showed that this culture also unleashed the most brutal and barbarous aspects of human beings. Qutb began to have an apocalyptic vision of a disease that was spreading from the West throughout the world. He called it jahilliyah, state of barbarous ignorance. What made it so terrifying and insidious was that people didn't realize that they were infected. They believed that they were free, and that their politicians were taking them forward to a new world. But in fact, they were regressing to a barbarous age."
- small excerpt from The Power of Nightmares. Aired on the BBC channel.
So those ideas influenced one events after another, and met up with Ayman Zawahiri (radicalized even more after being tortured in the likes of Qutb - ignorant muslims can be killed), who later was the mentor of Mr.Bean Laden. After continous failed bloody uprisings in Egypt and among other Muslim masses themselves, they turned to America as an act of desperation. -
Er.... nasser was anti US in case you don't know. And I don't think Nasser needs anybody's advice how to torture muslim brotherhood terrorists.