Is the government good value for money?
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Originally posted by Salman:
according to mrs peanuts, this amount is S$600k.
yu mean the ministers should not be well paid for doing a good job?
You wanna pay peanuts?
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$600k is really peanuts man for running a country like Singapore.
Millions is ok, its much better than paying billions in corruption money. -
Here's another good consideration, if they aren't value for money, can we ask for a refund, or return goods & services???
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Originally posted by Salman:
Ya i know that, but how can we be sure that after taking the large salary, the ministers will not take the billions of corruption money?
$600k is really peanuts man for running a country like Singapore.
Millions is ok, its much better than paying billions in corruption money.
Look at the Princes of the Qing Dynasty. (Prince Qing) He was a prince and holds important positions in the Qing Cabinet prior to the constitution change. He has large houses and a high salary from the Qing Government, but he is still corrupt. -
When you don't pay them well, you will make it more likely for them to be corrupt.
BTW do you ppl know that being an MP is very hard work? -
What is the "good job" that the Ministers are seen to have accomplished ?Originally posted by Salman:yu mean the ministers should not be well paid for doing a good job?
You wanna pay peanuts?
The Ministers - and Members of Parliament from the Ruling Party - seem to be having a "good job" instead of DOING any "good job".
When the Economy is down they blamed EXTERNAL FACTORS that are beyond their control; but surprisingly, when the Economy is good - they seem to be the influential factor that miraculously caused the Economy to come to Life.
They certainly know the "Art of Politics, and Political Manouvering" .
After the NKF incident, it seems that "paying peanuts" have take a different connotation - and perhaps the kind of peanuts that is expected is merely a camouflage of the truer intention of how the Government a.k.a the Ruling Party intend to pay themselves. -
So we have to pay our ministers millions or they will become corrupt and take billions of money under the table....but we send the policeman who takes 50 dollars kopi money to jail for corruption?Originally posted by Salman:Thats right, pay them more or put them under greater temptation of corruption.
Don't be a naive little bwoy.
Don't be daft, kiddo... -
I really enjoy the arguments put forward here, besides enjoying the highest pay structure for politicians in the whole world, we also have an extraordinary large support struture for them. Yes, the civil service is being trimmed, many have lost their jobs (mostly middle and lower level) and are struggling now but yet the number of Ministers has not been trimmed, if we have such highly capable people, why do they need to have so many of them and a even bigger number of supporting staff. Why is there a need for a MM & SM when our PM is the most brilliant, efficent , capable and the most honest in the world. Why do we pay three guys when years ago one was enough.
But I guess Salman will never agree to this argument...well he is the ultimate product, like the majority of Singaporeans of hegemony and doctrination. For that the MIW deserve what they pay themselves... -
If we outsource all government ministers to tom and dick I think they all will outperform harry even at lesser pays.
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Anyone who takes even $5 kopi money will be jailed for corruption. Police or minister.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:So we have to pay our ministers millions or they will become corrupt and take billions of money under the table....but we send the policeman who takes 50 dollars kopi money to jail for corruption?
Don't be daft, kiddo... -
I think your job should be outsourced cos you do forums on company time.Originally posted by robertteh:If we outsource all government ministers to tom and dick I think they all will outperform harry even at lesser pays.
You are cheating and corrupt. -
Outsourced surpluses = $1,800,000.00 x 10 x 30 - $500,000.00 x 10 x 30 = $390,000,000.00 enough monies to set up a temporary unemployment relief fund for the citizens.
Candidates to invite for outsourcing: Bill Clinton, Mahathir, George Bush Senior, ..
(Tapping away on this key board ..cheating on $390,000,000.00 public monies) -
Why don't we outsource your job first, that would save your boss a lot of money.
Mahathir is mister 10%, too expensive.
Bill Clinton screws your GF, no good.
Bush Senior too old, cannot. -
Bush Senior older than MM?Originally posted by Salman:Why don't we outsource your job first, that would save your boss a lot of money.
Mahathir is mister 10%, too expensive.
Bill Clinton screws your GF, no good.
Bush Senior too old, cannot.
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We are talking about PM. not MM.
BTW, if you can convince Bush to give up his US citizenship, we can consider. No problem. -
Let it bark
Let's keep to the discussion, no political function should be outsourced for they are in any true democracy the representatives of the people. I would say there is more a need to question the efficiency of the people we are paying so much to. If the salary benchmark for Ministers is based on the top 10% of the private sector, than equivalent benckmark must be set. If you fail to deliver in private sector you go..and in some countries if major disasters happen (like collaspes) ministers resign taking responsibility...this should come with the big pay packet. -
They've done great job so far, if they screw up, we'll fire them alright.
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I think the NKF saga has shown that the govt is not doing a very great job. I quite agree with veteran journalist Seah Chiang Nee:
"Because of the link, the crisis had rubbed off on the government, which is blamed for poor judgment and dereliction of duty as a watchdog of a body that handles so much public money.
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Predictably, the issue has also raised questions on a couple of longstanding policies.
One involves the absence of an independent check and balance structure, which exists in other developed countries in the forms of a strong opposition and an independent media, not available here.
The PAP has always said Singapore doesn't need either of them to play the role. It says an honest government is its best watchdog against wrongdoing.
The NKF fiasco questions how effective this can work over the long term.
Secondly, it calls into question Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew's argument that high government salaries would prevent corruption. His rationale is that if a person is very well paid, he will not be tempted by greed.
While Durai has not been charged with corruption, his high pay had not kept him away from acquiring more even if it's from the charity basket."
Extract from littlespeck,
NKF impact
On longstanding policies
It will eventually settle down but underlying questions remain. By Seah Chiang Nee.
Dec 29, 2005 -
Why do I care if Bill Clinton screws your GF? We are being screwed by our own government...Originally posted by Salman:Bill Clinton screws your GF, no good. -
if the government not good, how we going to fire them??
1) find their home put fire(this is stupid idea) so as to fry them cuttlefish, or
2) wait until next GE which might be changed again this time to maybe 10years later and hope you got a chance to vote, or
3) stage a sms protest and pray police not catch you??
if the government good, will potong pasir be still be w/o upgrading while jurong west(today st time) will be upgraded despite being a new town??? This considered money politics?? I dunno, aku political idiot, just know what is right and what is not right.
I just feel something is very not right with their administration, something like I vote them, I am considered sg'ean, I vote OPP, I am considered non-sg'ean. -
and yes, pls outsource my job to bangala, cauca, and others if they were given a PR/citizenship which is oleidi happening in the sports arena. sad, very, that government, like other countries, gave up on their own people and spending $$$ on others.
Also, given the tremendous scope of responsibilty of the US president, I doubt anyone in this world, not even MM, is fully capable. -
So with the above, I think multi-million is too much $$ to spend on this government, which has start to push many thing back to us, like the people has a responsibility to monitor NKF. If People monitor NKF or other entities ourself, then People pay gov so much for what?? to shoot us back?????
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Originally posted by Salman:They've done great job so far, if they screw up, we'll fire them alright.
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I think many are missing the point.
What constitutes good performance? Is there a quantifiable scope we can measure their KPI against?
How can we fire them if they are not doing a good job? 2 weeks notice?
What is value for money? Some ppl dun want to pay anything, citing that they get nothing from the govt. Others are willing to double the president's pay so he can jog along west coast as well as his usual east coast (or did I get both mixed up).
The main hinderance in this discussion is that some forumites speak in "by right". How things should be, how the theoretical checks and balances work.
Others like Robertteh speak of more practical approaches to real problems. They also identify certain policies, checks and balances that were put in place for political reasons or for ensuring their power... etc. -
Ha ha. Don't get angry. Things are like that. The public cannot monitor the NKF, KDF or any other companies.Originally posted by wheelie:So with the above, I think multi-million is too much $$ to spend on this government, which has start to push many thing back to us, like the people has a responsibility to monitor NKF. If People monitor NKF or other entities ourself, then People pay gov so much for what?? to shoot us back?????
Think about how many times the public has cried out against certain issues.
Million dollar salary, extravagant NKF spending, gambling dens, etc.
How was it handled?
We're constantly told we do not see the big picture, we do not understand the thought process and reasons for these... yada yada etc etc blah blah...
There seems to be no end of excuses to tell us why we're too dumb to know what's good for us.