Many Singaporeans migrating....How come???
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The right to vote?
Tell that to the gastarbeiter in the EU.At least they can enjoy some form of representation at the polls.
Realistically speaking, for a Singaporean to participate in the most fundamental process of democracy, he/she has to move to the UK.
But then, let's not digress too much.
Ged is right, if you want to see the real skein of racism or not-racism, please do not look through the 140th, which IMHO is still better served as either a govt newsletter or something my dog loves to rip up in the morning.
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Why is this mixing thing gotta do with racism or anything??Originally posted by HENG@:ah ok. so maybe u did leave out the time factor. well, I am in UK, now.
and while i appreciate china's rise, I still wish they would not keep to themselves and refuse to mix with other people. Afterall if one were to say that they're ashamed of not being able to speak good english, hey most of the students who are from mainland Europe honestly don't speak english any better. And since everyone's english is so chop suey, hey, nothing to be ashamed of. But they generally refuse to mix. Even the HK people think that about the PRC and they're factually from the same damn country.
Is that your problem just becos you dun like the sight
of them mixing amoung themselves??
I dun see anything wrong when PRCs here in sg mix around themselves??
Like i had said b4, every1 choose the clique of friends
one feel comfortable with.
Are you goin to say they have inferiority or superioty complex???
In my past experiences, many angmoh refuse to mix with
asians too. Hello??
And many angmoh in sg here really only mix with their local colleges
and local SPGs... hello?!?
On the whole, I really think there is nothing wrong not being
able to immerse into another culture.
I seriously think you look too much into this mixing/immersion thing. -
If Malaysia is a country not good to immigrate to, how come many local go there to stay n buy property?Originally posted by NuLife:I agree only partially with you.
On PRC in spores, i disgree on how u get these superior mentality
just becos they stay among their own community???
This appear to me as a matter of acceptance/tolerance
on the host country people.
If we see ourselves as human, and not as a certain race or religion,
there wldn't be so many problems, or is it not?
No matter how one tries to mingle and embrace the others,
the background in culture, religion, race, family
and thoughts can still be different.
There is little racism in singapore, but why do u see
more malays amoung themselves and same for chinese?
This is really an issue about cultural differences, not racism.
But there is acceptance and tolerance.
On migrating to a country, 'it takes 2 to clap'.
If you look at the host country side,
I see more of true openness, tolerance, acceptance
only in certain european countires, US alittle only,
but not much in Aust, UK.
Perhaps, UK is opening up due to economic exposure.
No matter what, i feel it takes 2 sides.
So even if we are willing to open and embrace others culture,
is the host country government and citizens willing to accept us and our different culture?
Will our social status be the same?
Only if the ans to both is yes,
then will i see a truly migratable country.
Infact, I feel that in some sense Aust is not even as open and tolerant as
singapore to immigrants.
Spore accepts PRCs, Angmohs, Indians, Filipinos
more than Australian accepts yellow-skinned asians.
Try apply the same arguments to Malaysia
and you will see why Malaysia is really a bad country to migrate to.
At least for me. -
Haha. Though i agree w u on the beginning part of above,Originally posted by HENG@:not only is it too small to cater for everyone, i dare say the pressures of being a country whose only resource are people, has lead to a society where if u're not 100% useful, u're treated like dirt. And then because everyone is trying to ensure they're useful, they end up forgetting not to be selfish, adopt a "every man for himself" attitude, and nobody cares much anymore.
Anyways the irony about racism is that in countries like China, the chinese can be racist against their own race. Its quite obvious that they often look down on non PRC chinese. And look at Singapore. One rape case in Malaysia done by malays and they condemn all malays as rapist cum murderers. It was disgusting. And adding to the racist fray were a few PRCs.
And finally, like it or not, u have to admit that the Chinese can be an awfully racist race. And incredible it may be, but being racist can often stem from an INFERIORITY complex to be honest.
You shld reprahse :
Racism is really a "Superiority Complex" not "Inferiority"
Look at US historical racism issue betw the whites and blacks.
Look at UK's world influencial power in history and
you will see why many racism in western country (esp UK)
really stems from have this "superiority complex"
NOT "Inferiority Complex"
I seriously suspect that alot of what u said,
is really out of a similiar "Superiority Complex"
of youself over others.
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I had stated using "those" arguments/views mah.Originally posted by will4:If Malaysia is a country not good to immigrate to, how come many local go there to stay n buy property?
Besides, every1's views and priorities are diff mah. -
edit:Originally posted by sgdiehard:you use the word "racist" very liberally. By your own definition, you are the worst racist here.
Honestly, some people mixed up
racism, cultural differences and superiority/inferiority complex.
I suspect, those who mix with the angmoh,
AND "despise" those who do not,
really have problems themselves. -
I agree w u on this one.Originally posted by lwflee:I would say that many people are migrating because Singapore is too small a country to cater to everyone. There just aren't enough opportunities in SIngapore for the young man. I want to get on the property ladder, I want to not have to take public transport to work. I want to be able to raise my kids in a country where they are not automatically entered into bondage on birth. I want to have some say in governemnt. . I do not like my tax dollars to be used to feed LKY and Co. I don't want to pay my ministers millions of dollars to do a job that quite frankly, anyone with commonsense and responsiblity can do.I want to actually choose my own prime minister, and not have one chosen for me. I want my kids to be able to choose his path in life and still make a decent living.
That is why many Singaporeans are migrating. At least that is what i think.
Further more, there are also more opportunities
for those really Talented ones whose Talents
are either of no use in Spore,
or the lack of opportunities to gloom them to full potential. -
Without getting too technical, I disagee. What's you're talking about here is subjugation and colonisation, not racism.Originally posted by NuLife:Haha. Though i agree w u on the beginning part of above,
You shld reprahse :
Racism is really a "Superiority Complex" not "Inferiority"
Look at US historical racism issue betw the whites and blacks.
Look at UK's world influencial power in history and
you will see why many racism in western country (esp UK)
really stems from have this "superiority complex"
NOT "Inferiority Complex"
I seriously suspect that alot of what u said,
is really out of a similiar "Superiority Complex"
of youself over others.
If we're talking strictyly about racism, trace it all the way back to its root causes and it's an inferiority complex. -
Reedit:Originally posted by Gedanken:Without getting too technical, I disagee. What's you're talking about here is subjugation and colonisation, not racism.
If we're talking strictyly about racism, trace it all the way back to its root causes and it's an inferiority complex.
Thou you got a pt here.
what i meant was the "superiority" mentality due to their
PAST colonisation, which eventually lead to racism.
How do we call those "racism" encounters in countries UK, Aust?
In UK, Asians had promotional problems in society. (in bbc news)
Are all the misinterpreted "racism" really due to various different factors.
How then do we define true "racism"??
Edit add: I just looked up wiki.
quote:
For these commentators, "racism" as a term is usefully applied only to the dominant group in a society, because it is that group which has the means to oppress others. The backlash from weaker groups with what would be described, on a broader conception, as "racist" beliefs or attitudes are said to display "racial prejudice", but it is not theoretically appropriate to refer to them as "racist" or as displaying "racism". In short, this view limits racism to the effective repression of “racial” groups due to racial prejudice.
The United Nations uses a definition of racist discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and adopted in 1966:
...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
SO:
Racism is really abt rights oppression due to color.
Which nullify the colonisation and subjugation arguments
as non-racism. Isn't it?
ps: man.. am i so bo liao to look up wiki...haaa -
That brings us to another topic:
So racism is really about public human rights.
What about "silent racism/discrimination".
...i think the arugments are going to be endless..
and perhaps too off topic. -
Now I have not read through everything you have stated here...but i suggest that if you are trying to have a proper debate...leave out wikipedia.Originally posted by NuLife:Reedit:
Thou you got a pt here.
what i meant was the "superiority" mentality due to their
PAST colonisation, which eventually lead to racism.
How do we call those "racism" encounters in countries UK, Aust?
In UK, Asians had promotional problems in society. (in bbc news)
Are all the misinterpreted "racism" really due to various different factors.
How then do we define true "racism"??
Edit add: I just looked up wiki.
quote:
For these commentators, "racism" as a term is usefully applied only to the dominant group in a society, because it is that group which has the means to oppress others. The backlash from weaker groups with what would be described, on a broader conception, as "racist" beliefs or attitudes are said to display "racial prejudice", but it is not theoretically appropriate to refer to them as "racist" or as displaying "racism". In short, this view limits racism to the effective repression of “racial” groups due to racial prejudice.
The United Nations uses a definition of racist discrimination laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and adopted in 1966:
...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
SO:
Racism is really abt rights oppression due to color.
Which nullify the colonisation and subjugation arguments
as non-racism. Isn't it?
ps: man.. am i so bo liao to look up wiki...haaa
FFS! Quoting from Wikipedia?!?! rolf! -
Nope.Originally posted by NuLife:Racism is really abt rights oppression due to color.
Which nullify the colonisation and subjugation arguments
as non-racism. Isn't it?
You're missing out context. In the case of the initial importation of Africans into America, or the Aborigines when Cook and his mob landed, there's the question of whether the non-whites were regarded as possessing enough culture to qualify as human. Now this may be a fine point to argue, but it is important enough to be a key issue in Australia's land-rights cases and the matter of terra nullius.
As for colonisation, the agreements signed with the original rulers of the colonised countries set the conditions. In other words, it wasn't the colonists who made the locals the underclass, it was the local leaders.
In short, you're oversimplifying things. Like I said, let's not let things get too technical. -
Uh, maybe you ought to do a bit more research past Wikipedia.Originally posted by NuLife:That brings us to another topic:
So racism is really about public human rights.
What about "silent racism/discrimination".
...i think the arugments are going to be endless..
and perhaps too off topic.
First, if it's discrimination, it's not silent. Prejudice may be concealed by the individual, but discrimination is prjudice that is acted upon.
Also, again, you're oversimplifying things. Racism and rights are related, but you can't simply say that one is the other.
Look, like I said, let's not get too technical, and if you'll pardon my saying so, you're in way over your head if you want to discuss racism. Best we move on to something else. -
Im sure there are many readings that can explain these more.Originally posted by Gedanken:Uh, maybe you ought to do a bit more research past Wikipedia.
First, if it's discrimination, it's not silent. Prejudice may be concealed by the individual, but discrimination is prjudice that is acted upon.
Also, again, you're oversimplifying things. Racism and rights are related, but you can't simply say that one is the other.
Look, like I said, let's not get too technical, and if you'll pardon my saying so, you're in way over your head if you want to discuss racism. Best we move on to something else.
And yeah, getting too technical and detail into history is
quite meaningless to general discussion this thread.
Most here are only looking at this from a laymen pt
and trying to understand it more.
No pt getting too much details.
ps:
No worries. Thx for reminding me.
Im had allowed my disgust for some rude individual
here to get in the way of proper discussion of the thread.
No need to pt out those little pts and argue right??
cheers -
Dun play play ok. Wiki is pretty good for quick lookup.Originally posted by lwflee:Now I have not read through everything you have stated here...but i suggest that if you are trying to have a proper debate...leave out wikipedia.
FFS! Quoting from Wikipedia?!?! rolf!
Look again, they even included UN's definition of racism.
Good enough for most. -
I read to the bit highlighted in red and i dun need to read anymore. Clearly u have completely not gotten my point, and made up something on your own to tack onto me.Originally posted by sgdiehard:You are in UK looking at some asians visiting UK and I am in singapore looking at the angmohs visiting here. you label singaporean as racists because they don mix with the locals, I am just told you that the angmohs here are no different but I have not labelled them racists yet.
Are singaporean in singapore racists? with over 1 million foreigners crowding with 3 millions locals in a 625sq km area, there are bound to be discomfort and adjustment, but still we have the little india, we have mosque, temple and church next door to each other, how can we be labelled racist just because some overseas singaporean do not mix with the locals?? If there were 15 millions foreigners among the 60 millions brits, we will see how they are accepting to the reality.
When you travel in the region to places where english are not spoken widely, then you will see how the angmohs behave, then decide if their behavior are racists or not. Staying in the comfort of their own home, they can expect everybody coming to their countries to speak english. If they don't, the visitors are racists but not the hosts. When they are overseas, if locals cannot accept their cultures, the locals are racists. This is western superiority mentality, not just racists.
It is not a fact that when you travel in UK, any language other than english are not understood, this is different from going even to paris, they understand english, in german they understand more languages, may be not asian languages. so a few englishmen who speak indian or chinese is not big deal, there are chinese or asian studies in many of the UK universities.
The right to vote means nothing, here in singapore, mainland chinese, indian, pakistani, thai can all vote once they become citizens. It is their rights, they don't have to feel grateful as if their master has just given them freedom.
I will say again. I am saying that, ASIANS not mixing with the locals and bunching up amongst their own cliques 1st is what contributes to THEM thinking UK is a racist country. I'm saying if they took the time to mix around more, and did not stick right to their own communities right from the start, they would realise otherwise. They THINK UK is more racist than it actually is, because of what they did. When u're behaving cliquish, people tend to find u harder to approach, and these ASIANS then perceive the locals as being racist.
U clearly lost the plot a long way back in this debate. -
AYOH! u another one who lose the plotOriginally posted by NuLife:Why is this mixing thing gotta do with racism or anything??
Is that your problem just becos you dun like the sight
of them mixing amoung themselves??
I dun see anything wrong when PRCs here in sg mix around themselves??
Like i had said b4, every1 choose the clique of friends
one feel comfortable with.
Are you goin to say they have inferiority or superioty complex???
In my past experiences, many angmoh refuse to mix with
asians too. Hello??
And many angmoh in sg here really only mix with their local colleges
and local SPGs... hello?!?
On the whole, I really think there is nothing wrong not being
able to immerse into another culture.
I seriously think you look too much into this mixing/immersion thing.
im SAYING, that becos THEY dun mix with the locals, and become cliquish. People who are cliquish are harder to approach and befriend so the LOCALS don't bother, and then the singaporean students THINK the locals are being RACIST. Thats why some people might think the UK/Australia/USA is more racist than it actually is. Its because of what they themselves are doing that makes them harder to approach and befriend, it has NOTHING to do with their race or skin colour, but it might SEEM like the locals are being racist.
Thats all la! wah lau which part of that is so hard to understand? -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:you use the word "racist" very liberally. By your own definition, you are the worst racist here.
I AM chinese. so perhaps i am. although people who know me will tell u otherwise. i don't mind taking potshots at every race tho, whether white, black, oriental, asian or otherwise. sometimes people need to lighten up about their race -
I disagree. sometimes inferiority complex can force people of a certain race to feel a need to prove themselves all the time, as a result they end up having issues against other races.Originally posted by NuLife:Haha. Though i agree w u on the beginning part of above,
You shld reprahse :
Racism is really a "Superiority Complex" not "Inferiority"
Look at US historical racism issue betw the whites and blacks.
Look at UK's world influencial power in history and
you will see why many racism in western country (esp UK)
really stems from have this "superiority complex"
NOT "Inferiority Complex"
I seriously suspect that alot of what u said,
is really out of a similiar "Superiority Complex"
of youself over others.
racism doesn't have to manifest itself as a race feeling itself superior over other races. it can also be a race having issues with people of other races.
and it quite funny la. im talking about the way some people behave. certainly has no superiority complex over others. im just saying that people always look to blame racism for a lot of things but they have to look at how they're behaving themselves a lot of the time, and see if they're the ones who're making it hard for other people to approach them, or is it really racism. Afterall, if people here keep claiming that UK is racist, i use myself as an example to ask, why haven't i been treated racially? Im not saying all singaporeans have to do what i do, but i AM saying that before u pin unfavourable treatment of yourself on being down to racism, look at yourself 1st and see if YOUR behaviour is contributing to that unfavourable treatment, instead of your race being a factor.
and according to Gedanken, who IS a certified psy, I am right in saying its due to an inferiority complex. -
excuse me, this is bordering on slander.Originally posted by NuLife:Forgive him sgdiehard.
HENG really got a traumatic childhood.
Do you know that 'he' doesn't like to be known as a "he"???
Honestly, some people mixed up
racism, cultural differences and superiority/inferiority complex.
I suspect, those who mix with the angmoh,
AND "despise" those who do not,
really have problems themselves.
who i am does not have anything to do with my childhood. for u to try to win an argument by getting low and dirty like that is just cheap. it shows u obviously have no logic or reason behind your arguments. maybe thats why people seem racist to u. Look at the way u behave The reality is that they were acting disfavourably towards u because u're just dirty.
If u can't even debate without keeping it non-personal, then don't.
and stop saying i despise those who dun mix with angmoh. i only despise those who don't want to mix, and then blame racism for the way people avoid them. If u dun want to mix, that is fine. When u find the locals avoiding u, that is because u don't want to mix. Why should people be friendly to u when u are not being friendly to them? That sort of simple logic should be easy to understand. To blame all of that on racism alone is what i despise. Clear enough?
And apology from you is very much in order. U said UK is racist, i say i don't think so, and i tell u why other singaporeans might think so, and then u go off and accuse me of being racist, and start personal insults? This is totally uncalled for.
If u want to continue acting low and dirty, then this debate is ended. If u have any reason and logic at all u won't have to resort to cheap tactics like that -
there's no solid proof that this bloke had ever resided in the uk anyways, why get to upset over potentially fictitious xenophobic experiences?
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thats not the point. We're using logic and reasoning to debate an issue here but 2 of them have been just taking personal potshots at me the whole time. When i ignored them, NuLife takes it to his head to just go overboard with personal insults. Why would ANYONE need to resort to personal insults 1st if they had any reasoning n logic behind their arguments?Originally posted by vito_corleone:there's no solid proof that this bloke had ever resided in the uk anyways, why get to upset over potentially fictitious xenophobic experiences? -
I have 5 things regarding this quote to tell Nulife:Originally posted by NuLife:Forgive him sgdiehard.
HENG really got a traumatic childhood.
Do you know that 'he' doesn't like to be known as a "he"???
1. this is out of topic with the thread.
2. you are in no position to comment HENG@'s upbringing.
3. you don't know HENG@ personally.
4. you are obviously flaming HENG@.
5. please refrain from this in future.
Anyway, I think this discussion has gone a bit far-stretched. From why Singaporeans are migrating to which countries are less racist to what racism is. OMG! -
Originally posted by geodome:
Hi geodome,
I have 5 things regarding this quote to tell Nulife:
1. this is out of topic with the thread.
2. you are in [b]no position to comment HENG@'s upbringing.
3. you don't know HENG@ personally.
4. you are obviously flaming HENG@.
5. please refrain from this in future.
Anyway, I think this discussion has gone a bit far-stretched. From why Singaporeans are migrating to which countries are less racist to what racism is. OMG![/b]
I did that with a purpose.
If you had been reading HENG msgs,
you will realise he had been name calling and labelling
many people in various threads.
Even in this current one, you can turn back few pages and read
for yourself.
And if you had read the discussion on the column
of gays etc, he had been calling people names and insulting
without respect even when many others had been very courteous.
We all want open discussions wo name calling/labelling.
I enjoy discussions, even if what i said is wrong,
others can pt it out and discuss without insulting others.
cheers.
I will remove that comment in a while. no worries. -
who have i called names here during the debate about whether uk/usa/australians?Originally posted by NuLife:Hi geodome,
I did that with a purpose.
If you had been reading HENG msgs,
you will realise he had been name calling and labelling
many people in various threads.
Even in this current one, you can turn back few pages and read
for yourself.
And if you had read the discussion on the column
of gays etc, he had been calling people names and insulting
without respect even when many others had been very courteous.
We all want open discussions wo name calling/labelling.
I enjoy discussions, even if what i said is wrong,
others can pt it out and discuss without insulting others.
cheers.
I will remove that comment in a while. no worries.
and please tell me if people who discriminate against gays are not called bigots, what do we call them? its like saying we can't call people who discriminate against race racists, or we can't call people who discriminate against women sexists.
personally i have not even insulted u here. so u are way out of line.
and finally, u are the one who did not get the point and keep accusing me of despising people who don't mix. If u would TAKE ONE MINUTE to read my replies properly u will realise u're wrong. ok?
So fine, people dun want to mix, dun mix. dun want to immerse, its their choice. I don't have a problem with that. BUT then they better don't come whining about people being racist because they're the ones being unfriendly towards the locals 1st. OR are u saying the locals must force their friendship upon foreigners to prove they're not racist?