Deferment of National Service, and Prevailing Rules
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You know, I watched the news last night and was astounded by how stupid the rules are concerning National Service.
Avoiding or evading NS is a crime, ok I can try to understand this. But their prevailing rules concerning NS and Deferment, is giving those who can study abroad a good reason not to come back.
What do you all think? -
What are these rules that you are talking about?
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defending singapore is the responsibility of menOriginally posted by ShutterBug:You know, I watched the news last night and was astounded by how stupid the rules are concerning National Service.
Avoiding or evading NS is a crime, ok I can try to understand this. But their prevailing rules concerning NS and Deferment, is giving those who can study abroad a good reason not to come back.
What do you all think?
we cannot depend on foreigners, eg. The british to defend singapore for us, for the history of singapore tells us so
so the ppl of singapore has to defend their homeland
but we cannot possible let women and old ppl defend rite?
therefore it is such an honourable responsibility for men to defend singapore
i understand the tough training (although i am not in NS but in NCC), but it is necessary.
in singapore some ppl dun wan go army or NS, whereas in China ppl would fight for a place in the army. such a great difference.
every male citizen should understand the importance of NS, and that it is not a waste of time of two years.
those who are trying to escape from NS, think about it again.
if everyone wants to escape from ns, then who will defend singapore?
cheers -
I don't know what you really get/gain by serving NS but through my experience, NS sucks (education is affected, better jobs go to foreigners and girls, pathetic $100K compensation to the parents if they kill the NSman accidentally) and now with stiff rulings and penalties, do I really want my son to have the Singapore citizenship and shoulder all the liabilities/responsibilities? I don't see how he'll feel belonged and survivable here - women, foreigners, and employers don't give NS much value.
Wouldn't it be right to give my son a bright future (just like what Melvyn's parents did for him) by sending him off to pursue his dreams and be somebody?
Why wish for my son to realise a NS dream that doesn't belong to him and he wouldn't want that only makes him to be a nobody? -
I don't know what you really get/gain by serving NS but through my experience, NS sucks (education is affected, better jobs go to foreigners and girls, pathetic $100K compensation to the parents if they kill the NSman accidentally) and now with stiff rulings and penalties, do I really want my son to have the Singapore citizenship and shoulder all the liabilities/responsibilities? I don't see how he'll feel belonged and survivable here - women, foreigners, and employers don't give NS much value.
very well said! thats how exactly i feel
Wouldn't it be right to give my son a bright future (just like what Melvyn's parents did for him) by sending him off to pursue his dreams and be somebody?
Why wish for my son to realise a NS dream that doesn't belong to him and he wouldn't want that only makes him to be a nobody?
at least i dont have to worry abt children since i don't plan to have one -
Rather well said, macjoe.Originally posted by macjoe:I don't know what you really get/gain by serving NS but through my experience, NS sucks (education is affected, better jobs go to foreigners and girls, pathetic $100K compensation to the parents if they kill the NSman accidentally) and now with stiff rulings and penalties, do I really want my son to have the Singapore citizenship and shoulder all the liabilities/responsibilities? I don't see how he'll feel belonged and survivable here - women, foreigners, and employers don't give NS much value.
Wouldn't it be right to give my son a bright future (just like what Melvyn's parents did for him) by sending him off to pursue his dreams and be somebody?
Why wish for my son to realise a NS dream that doesn't belong to him and he wouldn't want that only makes him to be a nobody?
I'm not against NS, and yes I agree it's every man's obligation to defend his own country. But as pointed out by macjoe, SOME changes or improvements have to be made with regards to NS. And what is $100k for a life lost, and the time and money invested in bringing up one's son?
I believe there are a lot of well heeled people who intend to send their son/s abroad for better future.
Although it's safe in Singapore, there's little future for many of us old and young. -
agree, if i'm rich like Melvyn's parents i would also send my son away instead of doing NS.Originally posted by macjoe:IWouldn't it be right to give my son a bright future (just like what Melvyn's parents did for him) by sending him off to pursue his dreams and be somebody? -
Here's the argument among MPs:
What's your view?
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CONSIDER this, if Albert Einstein (considered the greatest scientist of the 20th century), Stephen Hawking (celebrated physicist and author of A Brief History Of Time) and Bill Gates (Microsoft chief and currently the world's richest man) were to come to Singapore, would we put them in jail?
The answer: Yes - if they're National Service defaulters.
This was the bottomline, as Parliament engaged in an animated and emotional debate about the Government's push for jail terms of up to three years for serious default cases.
What's 'serious'? According to Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean, it's when you stay away for two years or more from the time you must enlist for NS - or for those given deferment, from the time their exit permits expire.
SEEN AS BEING UNFAIR
Why so harsh? Because, the minister said: 'We'll be seen as being unfair if we were to treat talented NS defaulters more leniently than others. The fact that they are talented and can contribute to Singapore does not detract from the fact that they have defaulted on their NS.'
So yes, even if this means such talents end up staying away, at Singapore's loss.
Not every MP was convinced.
Despite the hue and cry over renowned pianist and ex-Singaporean Melvyn Tan's $3,000 fine for defaulting on his NS obligations - a sentence many considered too light - many of the 16 who spoke actually said: Let's be more flexible, more sympathetic and less judgmental.
Stressed East Coast GRC MP Tan Soo Khoon: 'Increasing the fines and penalties for defaulters may give us satisfaction, and a greater sense of fairness and justice, but it does not necessarily bring the men back.'
Ayer Rajah MP Dr Tan Cheng Bock said: 'We as a nation must always make room for forgiveness. Where possible, Singapore must never reject a returning son.'
After all, these MPs pointed out, many so-called defaulters were just kids when their parents yanked them abroad. Or they could have been chasing after that dream job when the NS call-up came.
Another veteran backbencher, Bukit Timah MP Dr Wang Kai Yuen, even said he was 'disturbed' by the jail terms.
'Are we seeking just punishment or vengeance?... We should not slam the doors shut for such lost sons.'
Especially, he explained, if they've turned the emotional corner and, like Mr Melvyn Tan, now want to renew old ties with family and country.
But it was the man who dropped the names of Einstein, Hawking and Gates - Tampines GRC MP Sin Boon Ann - who made the most impassioned plea.
Mr Sin argued: 'It seems... there will not be any satisfaction until the pound of flesh is extracted... (But) as we mature as a society and become more gracious, we must learn that the world is not only cast in black and white... (and) to be a more generous society by rising above our basic instincts.'
West Coast MP S Iswaran, though, had a different perspective.
MAKING A SACRIFICE
He'd recently met two young men - a foreigner who's a Singapore PR, and a Singaporean with an Australian PR. Both were serving their NS and asked him the same question: 'Why am I doing this?'
The MP's point? 'I want to be able to look these men... in the eye and say to them: 'We know you're making a sacrifice. We apply the rules impartially. We respect your sacrifice and service, and we'll not forget it. And I think our laws and the way we enforce them must evidence that and match our words and commitment.'
Wrapping up, Mr Teo advised the House to ponder this: 'Who will shed a tear for Singapore if there is no Singapore for such people to return to, because the institution of National Service has been undermined?'
So the country has spoken.
When it comes to NS, there are simply no ifs or buts. Just come home and do it. -
Shutterbug,
Why did u create a new topic when I had aready open a topic on the same subject which few ppl take part? -
NS is really necessary!!
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You sound like that PRC supremo Eric Shang. Are you his clone?Originally posted by huaqing:defending singapore is the responsibility of men
we cannot depend on foreigners, eg. The british to defend singapore for us, for the history of singapore tells us so
so the ppl of singapore has to defend their homeland
but we cannot possible let women and old ppl defend rite?
therefore it is such an honourable responsibility for men to defend singapore
i understand the tough training (although i am not in NS but in NCC), but it is necessary.
in singapore some ppl dun wan go army or NS, whereas in China ppl would fight for a place in the army. such a great difference.
every male citizen should understand the importance of NS, and that it is not a waste of time of two years.
those who are trying to escape from NS, think about it again.
if everyone wants to escape from ns, then who will defend singapore?
cheers -
pls stop your rubbish. if u want to give up your basic human rights, then u don't really deserve to be human. grow up soon n stop being a disgrace to my former sch n ccaOriginally posted by huaqing:defending singapore is the responsibility of men
we cannot depend on foreigners, eg. The british to defend singapore for us, for the history of singapore tells us so
so the ppl of singapore has to defend their homeland
but we cannot possible let women and old ppl defend rite?
therefore it is such an honourable responsibility for men to defend singapore
i understand the tough training (although i am not in NS but in NCC), but it is necessary.
in singapore some ppl dun wan go army or NS, whereas in China ppl would fight for a place in the army. such a great difference.
every male citizen should understand the importance of NS, and that it is not a waste of time of two years.
those who are trying to escape from NS, think about it again.
if everyone wants to escape from ns, then who will defend singapore?
cheers -
"There can be no compromise."
Those were the words of Teo Chee Hean.
At this point, i'm not sure whether the added punishments are based on merit or spite. -
Oh I had no idea you have.Originally posted by PRP:Shutterbug,
Why did u create a new topic when I had aready open a topic on the same subject which few ppl take part?
In any case; EVERYONE, please go read up on PRP's posting of the same topic.
There. Hope this rectifies things. -
*applauds*Originally posted by macjoe:I don't know what you really get/gain by serving NS but through my experience, NS sucks (education is affected, better jobs go to foreigners and girls, pathetic $100K compensation to the parents if they kill the NSman accidentally) and now with stiff rulings and penalties, do I really want my son to have the Singapore citizenship and shoulder all the liabilities/responsibilities? I don't see how he'll feel belonged and survivable here - women, foreigners, and employers don't give NS much value.
Wouldn't it be right to give my son a bright future (just like what Melvyn's parents did for him) by sending him off to pursue his dreams and be somebody?
Why wish for my son to realise a NS dream that doesn't belong to him and he wouldn't want that only makes him to be a nobody?
seriously, i would consider if i want my son to
be a singaporean, serve NS and waste 2 years of his precious 20s life.
We all know 20s is an important time of a persons life.
It may determine his future career, his future partner, etc.
but 2.5 years of that is been taken away by our government.
Compare that with our FTs working right here in Sg,
they will have more working experiences when they hit 30,
possibly richer, more eligible and better-establish in their career.
In some cases, the destruction to ones continuous education
or career climb is even unmeasurable in mere number of years.
Opportunities may be lost permenantly.
Moreover, not every person character is suitable for NS.
I had seen some frens suffered much in NS and got
depression which affected his latter life.
We should really question if NS resulted in more NEGATIVE
or Positive effect on the society. -
Seriously, i don't think anyone is dead against the idea of consciption in SG.The only concern is the increasingly difficult position SG males are placed in and disadvantages faced in the working world.
I would say with absolutely certainty that NS indeed enriched my life, fostered a new group of friends who stuck with you through thick and thin and inculcated the spirit of camaraderie.
Trench digging and instructors stealing weapons during BMT will always be stories we keep with us post-NS. Those are the fond moments i recall when i look back.
As for those who compare tough times with the current, always keep in mind that each preceding batch was always tougher than its predecessor. People literally died in LARGER numbers under the eyes of our israeli trainers. Some committed suicide. And back then no one cared. Nowadays, every NSman is a mother's son and even 1 suicide or accidental death will become a source of kopitiam gossip.
NS has made me a better person. I openly admit it. My only request is that ICT frequencies should be reviewed to get the best out of NSmen with minimal disruption to their careers. The current guidelines and Laws to deter defaulter-wannabes are sufficient. Let's not go demanding for higher mountains to climb each time someone new scales it. -
Haha.. someone changed his Sgforum signature.. Look below.. The school (& church) name has disappeared.Originally posted by HENG@:pls stop your rubbish. if u want to give up your basic human rights, then u don't really deserve to be human. grow up soon n stop being a disgrace to my former sch n ccaOriginally posted by huaqing:http://mahuaqing.blogspot.com
http://spaces.msn.com/members/mahuaqing
http://chengdu.sgforums.com -
I'm sorry your NS experience was unenjoyable. I enjoyed NS thoroughly and disagree with you. Firstly, it is up to you to make your NS experience enjoyable. True, a big part of it is out of your hands when you're at the mercy of retarded commanders that are better off as toilet cleaners. Nonetheless, what you go through NS is what you make of it. The lessons I've learnt regarding the handling of big organizations, difficult men, fighting my own personal demons (the tendency to be lazy) have benefitted me as I go through my college education right now. I find myself more open minded after NS. I've also realised that I tend to see things from a broader perspective. All of which have made me more responsible, more mature.. as compared to my peers. Understand that i'm overseas and fighting it out with foreigners. The NS experience has given me equal if not, better footing than my peers in school.Originally posted by macjoe:I don't know what you really get/gain by serving NS but through my experience, NS sucks (education is affected, better jobs go to foreigners and girls, pathetic $100K compensation to the parents if they kill the NSman accidentally) and now with stiff rulings and penalties, do I really want my son to have the Singapore citizenship and shoulder all the liabilities/responsibilities? I don't see how he'll feel belonged and survivable here - women, foreigners, and employers don't give NS much value.
Wouldn't it be right to give my son a bright future (just like what Melvyn's parents did for him) by sending him off to pursue his dreams and be somebody?
Why wish for my son to realise a NS dream that doesn't belong to him and he wouldn't want that only makes him to be a nobody?
I don't think I'm losing out to foreign talent or girls (which by the way is rather sexist of you). Employers may not take my NS experience into consideration but that experience goes into making myself more attractive to employers. I have dreams and ambitions on my own.. NS is just one of the stumbling blocks in the way to realising it. Rather than trying to avoid it, i overcame it and became more enriched and better equipped to pursue my dreams. -
Originally posted by geodome:Haha.. someone changed his Sgforum signature.. Look below.. The school (& church) name has disappeared.
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Seving NS is compulsory by law.But if a father has the money to pay the bond and let his child to go overseas to study and later decided to dodge NS,the govt can't do anything except forefeit his bond.Originally posted by huaqing:defending singapore is the responsibility of men
we cannot depend on foreigners, eg. The british to defend singapore for us, for the history of singapore tells us so
so the ppl of singapore has to defend their homeland
but we cannot possible let women and old ppl defend rite?
therefore it is such an honourable responsibility for men to defend singapore
i understand the tough training (although i am not in NS but in NCC), but it is necessary.
in singapore some ppl dun wan go army or NS, whereas in China ppl would fight for a place in the army. such a great difference.
every male citizen should understand the importance of NS, and that it is not a waste of time of two years.
those who are trying to escape from NS, think about it again.
if everyone wants to escape from ns, then who will defend singapore?
cheers -
It is good that PAP allowed its MPs to speak freely on the issue in parliament.
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As with everything, speak only.Originally posted by PRP:It is good that PAP allowed its MPs to speak freely on the issue in parliament. -
I'm afraid the benefits/value of NS as you proclaim are not rock-solid enough to win me over. The view you have now is only partial, a bit premature imo. Have you started working and started a business to fully access the impact/benefits/value of NS?Originally posted by Farmer Brown:I'm sorry your NS experience was unenjoyable. I enjoyed NS thoroughly and disagree with you. Firstly, it is up to you to make your NS experience enjoyable. True, a big part of it is out of your hands when you're at the mercy of retarded commanders that are better off as toilet cleaners. Nonetheless, what you go through NS is what you make of it. The lessons I've learnt regarding the handling of big organizations, difficult men, fighting my own personal demons (the tendency to be lazy) have benefitted me as I go through my college education right now. I find myself more open minded after NS. I've also realised that I tend to see things from a broader perspective. All of which have made me more responsible, more mature.. as compared to my peers. Understand that i'm overseas and fighting it out with foreigners. The NS experience has given me equal if not, better footing than my peers in school.
I don't think I'm losing out to foreign talent or girls (which by the way is rather sexist of you). Employers may not take my NS experience into consideration but that experience goes into making myself more attractive to employers. I have dreams and ambitions on my own.. NS is just one of the stumbling blocks in the way to realising it. Rather than trying to avoid it, i overcame it and became more enriched and better equipped to pursue my dreams.
Let's talk what you've said.
You enjoyed NS thoroughly but a big part is out of your hands at the mercy of retarded commanders. What I think you saw in NS is immature older boys (a few 1-2 years older than the NSman) essentially abuse their authority and bully than nurture the lower ranks. Their influence is hardly positive. The ones who make a positive influence on the NSmen are often seasoned commanders who don't motivate by fear but by your own effort toward excellence. That calibre of commanders are very few. One threatens/treats you no differently than slaves (to squueze out a result) whereas the other grooms you to overcome your fears to be your best.
I would agree with you that with 2 years ahead of your college peers, you are generally more mature than them. But I may not agree fully that what you had gained in NS is fully useful in college education.
Whether you'll be attractive to employers, that's for you to discover in future.
Everyone has or ought to have dreams and ambitions. At the prime of one's youth and learning, it is not a good idea to go through a major stumbling block. If Melvyn had gone thru it, would he have become what he is today - enriched and better equipped to pursue his dreams? That he avoided the stumbling block and ventured forward made him what he is today realising his dreams. If Ang Peng Siong followed Melvyn's path, he probably would have achieved bigger and become a huge celebrity or national sport icon today but because of NS, what has he really become today?
I feel we need a NS rethink if not remaking. -
[/u]Waste of public fund
Some ppl who intend to migrate to other country still have to come back to serve NS.What is the use of spending money to train a person who later would migrate overseas?Govt really has to rethink on such policy.