Let those who intend to emigrate opt out of NS
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I brought in the house and car as a juxtaposition to show how irrelevant your introduction of the educational privileges is to a debate about NS.Originally posted by depressed:did i mention that my definition of priviledges includes a car and a house?
don't foreigners get the priviledge u called safety provided by a citizen army if they stay here as well? other countries can provide safety, why should safety to be considered a priviledge when Mr Pavin could get those from most countries in the world? from his country, Thailand as well? why does Japan, without a citizen army, does not suffer from a war past 1945? how many wars are there after WWII? to me its just pure hyprocrisy that we have to ask someone to serve NS here on the basis of priviledges when it is evident that the bulk of the priviledges like job priorities, study allowances from the government goes to women and foreigners instead of NSmen.
I am curious you are speaking out against the writer. If I am not wrong, you used to be a commando and you are at present, staying and living in Australia. Is it because you have to serve NS before you could leave for Australia that you are opposed to the writer's idea? would you still harbor the same view if you do not have to serve NS?
I am sure the thousands of millions spent by the government on unnecessary upgrading exercises could be put to good use. It is too early to conclude whether having a full-sized regular millitary force would stop the whining.
Well and good - foreigners DO enjoy the privelege of safety - what's the problem, or have you forgotten that PRs serve NS as well?
Japan? Don't be ridiculous. You think that anybody's going to attack a country where US forces are stationed? Fine - why don't we give PLAB to the USAF and Changi to the USN? Then we can all be free to depend on someone else for protection the way we did in 1942.
Christ on a pogo stick, are you suggesting that we live in a war-free world? Where have you been hiding? Do yourself a favour and learn to use this wonderful little invention called a newspaper - I'm sure it'll be an enlightening experience for you.
Hey, I don't have a problem with women serving NS - if other countries can practice that, so can we. Also, I wouldn't bet the farm that women get job priveleges - got proof of that allegation?
If you've read enough of my posts to know that I was a Commando and that I've migrated to Australia, you'll have read enough to know that NS was a good experience for me and I therefore support the system. What makes you think that I'm opposed to this writer's idea simply because I served my NS?
What I am opposed to is someone making up flimsy excuses (he can't even decide if he wants to be a Thai or an American, for God's sake) after he's sucked up all the goodies and the time has come to pay his dues.
My stand is this: this spineless little worm has no scrupules, and he wants to live under the illusion that there IS such a thing as a free lunch. Well, tough - this is the real world. If you want to take it on a philosophical level, every right and privilege is accompanied by a responsibility. Our young friend is simply making a laughably desperate attempt at arguing his way out of responsibilty. Let the Thais or Yanks have him - I'm sure they'll appreciate someone of his gutless nature.
Are you so certain that the upgrading exercises are unnecessary? Even being mindful of the limits imposed by the Official Secrets Act, I can find you a number of people who would heartily disagree with you on that point - if you refer to some of the threads in the SAF forum, you will see that there are some threads that the moderators have gagged to stay on the right side of national security, but what's been posted is enough to at least imply that the situation is not all that comfortable. -
Rubbish. He could be in Thailand right now guzzling Mekong if Daddy and Mummy decided to ship him over there. I've personally come across (and been disgusted by) cases where the parents ship the kids off while they stay and work in Singapore, until the kid turns 21. There's nothing stopping him from going except for his (or his parents') greed in sucking that last little bit out of Singapore before bailing out.Originally posted by depressed:I agree. But according to what I heard, one is unable to renounce Singapore citizenship until he hits 21 years of age. I dont think the authorities in charge will let him give up his Singapore passport. -
The threadstarter's post sounds amusing, makes him sound 15nish.
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Then that is unfortunate and should be changed. I'm all for allowing people who want to give up their citizenships to be able to do so at any age. Why force someone to serve NS before leaving? Thats holding a person hostage!Originally posted by depressed:I agree. But according to what I heard, one is unable to renounce Singapore citizenship until he hits 21 years of age. I dont think the authorities in charge will let him give up his Singapore passport. And my guess is that his parents applied Singapore citizenship when he was young, not his own personal choice.
If only migrating was that easy, especially for those with NS obligations.
Or is the government afraid that if they were to do so, we will have an exodus of people leaving the country?
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I
brought in the house and car as a juxtaposition to show how irrelevant your introduction of the educational privileges is to a debate about NS.
my response was to someone mentioning the priviledges about being a citizen in singapore, not about the debate on NS, or whether Mr Pavin should serve NS.
Well and good - foreigners DO enjoy the privelege of safety - what's the problem, or have you forgotten that PRs serve NS as well?
Japan? Don't be ridiculous. You think that anybody's going to attack a country where US forces are stationed? Fine - why don't we give PLAB to the USAF and Changi to the USN? Then we can all be free to depend on someone else for protection the way we did in 1942.
Christ on a pogo stick, are you suggesting that we live in a war-free world? Where have you been hiding? Do yourself a favour and learn to use this wonderful little invention called a newspaper - I'm sure it'll be an enlightening experience for you.
Hey, I don't have a problem with women serving NS - if other countries can practice that, so can we. Also, I wouldn't bet the farm that women get job priveleges - got proof of that allegation?
If you've read enough of my posts to know that I was a Commando and that I've migrated to Australia, you'll have read enough to know that NS was a good experience for me and I therefore support the system. What makes you think that I'm opposed to this writer's idea simply because I served my NS?
What I am opposed to is someone making up flimsy excuses (he can't even decide if he wants to be a Thai or an American, for God's sake) after he's sucked up all the goodies and the time has come to pay his dues.
My stand is this: this spineless little worm has no scrupules, and he wants to live under the illusion that there IS such a thing as a free lunch. Well, tough - this is the real world. If you want to take it on a philosophical level, every right and privilege is accompanied by a responsibility. Our young friend is simply making a laughably desperate attempt at arguing his way out of responsibilty. Let the Thais or Yanks have him - I'm sure they'll appreciate someone of his gutless nature.
Are you so certain that the upgrading exercises are unnecessary? Even being mindful of the limits imposed by the Official Secrets Act, I can find you a number of people who would heartily disagree with you on that point - if you refer to some of the threads in the SAF forum, you will see that there are some threads that the moderators have gagged to stay on the right side of national security, but what's been posted is enough to at least imply that the situation is not all that comfortable
as i mentioned earlier: other countries can provide safety, why should safety be considered a priviledge when Mr Pavin could get those from most countries in the world?
United States of America have been meddling in other countries affairs, not just Japan as well.
Since which part of my thread did i suggest anything about should women serve NS?
as for jobs, read the thread I posted right at speaker's corner
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=174072
check out jobstreet, check out jobsdb
he has already mentioned that his plans to migrate to USA. He intends to be an american, not a thai. My guess is that his using thailand as a stepping stone to the USA.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=168291
so you are saying building more parks are more important than the welfare of NSmen? I checked out the SAF forum and I cant find any threads about HDB upgradings is necessary. You might want to give me the thread links so that i can have a look.
My stand is this: If we are going to reason that Mr Pavin should serve NS on the basis of priviledges and safety, we should ask the foreigners to bear their responsibilities and serve NS as well when they are getting subsidies and even study allowances as well . http://forums.hardwarezone.com/showthread.php?p=16163743&posted=1#post1616374. To me, if he has no point of staying in Singapore, was the point of wasting time and money on him? -
Like I said before, this is a clever TRAP set by the MIW back in the 1960s when times were extremely hard. In the first place, they should have tied the voting age to that which was prevailing in the UK. Don't tell me London reduced the voting age from 21 to 18 long after Singapore's independence?Originally posted by depressed:I agree. But according to what I heard, one is unable to renounce Singapore citizenship until he hits 21 years of age. I dont think the authorities in charge will let him give up his Singapore passport. And my guess is that his parents applied Singapore citizenship when he was young, not his own personal choice.
If only migrating was that easy, especially for those with NS obligations.
IMO, anyone old enough to bear arms deserves to vote in the elections. -
im definately not pro-NS but seriously, he can leave n renounce his citizenship. what's HE complaining about? What about those of us who never asked to be cursed with singapore citizenship to begin with?
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What the ...?!Originally posted by depressed:my response was to someone mentioning the priviledges of being a citizen in singapore, not about the debate on NS, or whether Mr Pavin should serve NS.
So tell me, how many wars exist after 1945?
and what about these countries:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_an_army
have they been invaded by other countries past 1945?
as i mentioned earlier
ther countries can provide safety, why should safety be considered a priviledge when Mr Pavin could get those from most countries in the world?
United States of America have been meddling in other countries affairs, not just Japan as well.
Since which part of my thread did i suggest anything about should women serve NS?
as for jobs, read the thread I posted right at speaker's corner
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=174072
check out jobstreet, check out jobsdb
he has already mentioned that his plans to migrate to USA. He intends to be an american, not a thai. My guess is that his using thailand as a stepping stone to the USA.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=168291
so you are saying building more parks are more important than the welfare of NSmen? I checked out the SAF forum and I cant find any threads about HDB upgradings is necessary. You might want to give me the thread links so that i can have a look.
My stand is this: If we are going to reason that Mr Pavin should serve NS on the basis of priviledges and safety, we should ask the foreigners to bear their responsibilities and serve NS as well when they are getting subsidies and even study allowances as well . http://forums.hardwarezone.com/showthread.php?p=16163743&posted=1#post1616374. To me, if he has no point of staying in Singapore, was the point of wasting time and money on him?
So maybe I should start discussing the price of pork bellies in China - that's about as relevant to this thread as your ramblings. What the devil does HDB upgrading have to do with the topic at hand?
I've already pointed out that if we're discussing the topic of serving NS, the key privelege in question is the safety provided by others doing their duty, with the accompanying obligation to fulfil the same duty at a given time. Your insistence on going off on a tangent of unrelated aspects of Singaporean life simply does not make any sense.
I'll bet you're one of those people who doesn't believe in insurance, but sure as hell you'll bleat like a stabbed nanny goat when the proverbial excrement hits the fan. I'm certain that many Kuwaitis felt exactly the same way you did on 1 August 1990, only to change their minds quite hurriedly the next day. If you want to believe that you can happily trot along without any form of defence, feel free to get an Egyptian passport and reside in denial - history has already proven you wrong.
If this Pavin fellow wishes to freeload on some country willing to provide him safety, let him go there. He and his parents have had forty years or so to catch up with the introduction of NS in Singapore and have no excuse for not knowing that unlike other countries, safety is not counted as a freebie here.
You're the one who brought up Japan, so I addressed your point. Going off on another tangent is not going to do you any good here.
The thread that you referred to is, at best and being very charitable, only peripherally related to your point. You're the one who made the assertion, so why do I have to be the one who takes a tally on JobsDB on your behalf? You want to make a point? Back it up. Otherwise it's tripe.
In any case, my intention here is to debate the substance of Pavin's wild theories of why he should be exempt from NS. I'm really not interested in meandering and entertaining rambling irrelevancies. -
I am not too sure about USA laws, but my guess is that while he could stay in Thailand and never come back to sg, USA would not accept his application for a green card if he has not serve NS in singapore or he is wanted by a country.
I saw a website mentioning about migrating to USA if you have not served NS in SG years back...trying to find that website now. -
very strong words.Originally posted by HENG@:im definately not pro-NS but seriously, he can leave n renounce his citizenship. what's HE complaining about? What about those of us who never asked to be cursed with singapore citizenship to begin with?
is it really that bad being a singaporean? -
It is worse being ethnic Chinese. Malays are always welcome in KL, Indians are generally well-accepted in the Western world. However, dark-haired people with yellow skin and flat noses usually end up being victimised by racist gangs in many places.Originally posted by dragg:very strong words.
is it really that bad being a singaporean? -
no ... I suspect it's just you ....Originally posted by iveco:It is worse being ethnic Chinese. Malays are always welcome in KL, Indians are generally well-accepted in the Western world. However, dark-haired people with yellow skin and flat noses usually end up being victimised by racist gangs in many places. -
remember my PM to you? yes?Originally posted by dragg:very strong words.
is it really that bad being a singaporean?
now think about it for a bit and tell me again if those are really very strong words.
now, think about it. would u REALLY like to see some really strong words on this subject from me? -
this much i agree.Originally posted by iveco:It is worse being ethnic Chinese. Malays are always welcome in KL, Indians are generally well-accepted in the Western world. However, dark-haired people with yellow skin and flat noses usually end up being victimised by racist gangs in many places.
they dislike asians. -
This what I think it's about, Heng?Originally posted by HENG@:remember my PM to you? yes?
now think about it for a bit and tell me again if those are really very strong words.
now, think about it. would u REALLY like to see some really strong words on this subject from me? -
In Malaysia, the Chinese population are regarded as 2nd class as many positions are reserved for Malays. No surprise that many of them are taking up residency in Singapore and sucking up our jobs.Originally posted by Fatum:no ... I suspect it's just you ....
For Nanyang Chinese to return to the mainland, it is virtually impossible because China is still quite isolated due to the Communist scourge. On the other hand, a Nanyang Indian can still feel at home in Chennai due to India's openness all along.
In conclusion, a Singaporean Chinese is pegged back not once but twice. -
awww ... Well ... actually, I can think of worse nationalities to be ....Originally posted by HENG@:im definately not pro-NS but seriously, he can leave n renounce his citizenship. what's HE complaining about? What about those of us who never asked to be cursed with singapore citizenship to begin with?
geographically challenged chaps who still think Singapore's part of China aside ... I think I'm quite proud say I'm Singaporeans overseas ... at least we're not from some third world shit hole ....
and, judging from the cases of south and east asians I've met pretending to be "Singaporeans" (yes, they really do pretend to be Singaporeans ... telling everyone that they're from Singapore)... I think there are non-Singaporean chaps who thought so too ... -
it is still you ...Originally posted by iveco:In Malaysia, the Chinese population are regarded as 2nd class as many positions are reserved for Malays. No surprise that many of them are taking up residency in Singapore and sucking up our jobs.
For Nanyang Chinese to return to the mainland, it is virtually impossible because China is still quite isolated due to the Communist scourge. On the other hand, a Nanyang Indian can still feel at home in Chennai due to India's openness all along.
In conclusion, a Singaporean Chinese is pegged back not once but twice.
I think it's very sad that you dislike your own race ... I seriously think you should seek counseling ... else you're going to be damm miserable going through life hating yourself, and wishing to be someone else eh ? .. -
What the ...?!
what i meant from upgrading when i originally posted:
So maybe I should start discussing the price of pork bellies in China - that's about as relevant to this thread as your ramblings. What the devil does HDB upgrading have to do with the topic at hand?
I've already pointed out that if we're discussing the topic of serving NS, the key privelege in question is the safety provided by others doing their duty, with the accompanying obligation to fulfil the same duty at a given time. Your insistence on going off on a tangent of unrelated aspects of Singaporean life simply does not make any sense.
I'll bet you're one of those people who doesn't believe in insurance, but sure as hell you'll bleat like a stabbed nanny goat when the proverbial excrement hits the fan. I'm certain that many Kuwaitis felt exactly the same way you did on 1 August 1990, only to change their minds quite hurriedly the next day. If you want to believe that you can happily trot along without any form of defence, feel free to get an Egyptian passport and reside in denial - history has already proven you wrong.
If this Pavin fellow wishes to freeload on some country willing to provide him safety, let him go there. He and his parents have had forty years or so to catch up with the introduction of NS in Singapore and have no excuse for not knowing that unlike other countries, safety is not counted as a freebie here.
You're the one who brought up Japan, so I addressed your point. Going off on another tangent is not going to do you any good here.
The thread that you referred to is, at best and being very charitable, only peripherally related to your point. You're the one who made the assertion, so why do I have to be the one who takes a tally on JobsDB on your behalf? You want to make a point? Back it up. Otherwise it's tripe.
In any case, my intention here is to debate the substance of Pavin's wild theories of why he should be exempt from NS. I'm really not interested in meandering and entertaining rambling irrelevancies.I am sure the thousands of millions spent by the government on unnecessary upgrading exercises could be put to good use.
You probably got me wrong.
i refer the upgrading exercise as the HDB upgrading exercise, not SAF upgrading exercises.
and I agree that the thread is getting irrelevant. My reply about priviledges was in regard to a post that is made earlier about priviledges in a country. You chose to harp on that point and make a saracastic remark on whether i need a car or a house as a priviledge.
As for the part on war and countries which do not have conscription, I have edited them out from my reply post before you make another reply. As for Kuwait, lets not forget what happened when USA interfere. Iraq ended up getting massive sanctions and was in the end, invaded by USA. -
that, and a lot more.Originally posted by Gedanken:This what I think it's about, Heng? -
Well, some people are extremely short sighted. They probably need reading glasses in order to see the big picture.Originally posted by depressed:what i meant from upgrading when i originally posted:
You probably got me wrong.
i refer the upgrading exercise as the HDB upgrading exercise, not SAF upgrading exercises.
and I agree that the thread is getting irrelevant. My reply about priviledges was in regard to a post that is made earlier about priviledges in a country. You chose to harp on that point and make a saracastic remark on whether i need a car or a house as a priviledge. -
if u knew what i knew, if u went thru what i did, u would not think that way anymore.Originally posted by Fatum:awww ... Well ... actually, I can think of worse nationalities to be ....
geographically challenged chaps who still think Singapore's part of China aside ... I think I'm quite proud say I'm Singaporeans overseas ... at least we're not from some third world shit hole ....
and, judging from the cases of south and east asians I've met pretending to be "Singaporeans" (yes, they really do pretend to be Singaporeans ... telling everyone that they're from Singapore)... I think there are non-Singaporean chaps who thought so too ...
honestly? im not proud to tell people im singaporean overseas. too many reasons not to be proud. and u know what? singapore is not a 3rd world shit hole true. no. singapore is a 1st world shit hole -
Well, it's one irrelevancy after another with you, isn't it? Let's take it from the top.Originally posted by depressed:You probably got me wrong.
i refer the upgrading exercise as the HDB upgrading exercise, not SAF upgrading exercises.
and I agree that the thread is getting irrelevant. My reply about priviledges was in regard to a post that is made earlier about priviledges in a country. You chose to harp on that point and make a saracastic remark on whether i need a car or a house as a priviledge.
As for the part on war and countries which do not have conscription, I have edited them out from my reply post before you make another reply. As for Kuwait, lets not forget what happened when USA interfere. Iraq ended up getting massive sanctions and was in the end, invaded by USA.
First, when discussing NS, the corresponding privelege is obviously and logically the safety provided to the citizens. It's not harping on a point, it IS the point. Within the context, education, economy and what not are relevant only insofar as they hinge upon a stable and safe environment provided by proper defence.
Second, well, you may have tried to delete it, but it shows the weak foundation upon which you are basing your propositions. I have provided the one piece of evidence needed to disprove your assertion that you can merrily traipse along without defending your country and assume you will continue unmolested. The fact of the matter is that Singapore does not have the population size upon which to form a properly-sized regular army, and therefore conscription is necessary to the defence of the country. If Singapore were to have a similar percentage to the US of its population serving as regulars, there would be just about bugger all to keep anyone from invading. Just in case you want to argue that nobody would want to invade Singapore, I'd recommend you read your history books.
Also, the invasion of Iraq is an entirely separate war, otherwise it would have been called Desert Strom instead of Iraqi Freedom. Again you muddy the waters.
Let's get to the key issue, shall we? No matter how you cut it, if you're living safely, somebody's paying for it. If you're even half decent, you must foot your part of the bill. -
You are only as pegged back as you allow yourself to be, stop being a whiner. I am amazed! I thought we were stronger than that! Have some pride in yourself!Originally posted by iveco:In Malaysia, the Chinese population are regarded as 2nd class as many positions are reserved for Malays. No surprise that many of them are taking up residency in Singapore and sucking up our jobs.
For Nanyang Chinese to return to the mainland, it is virtually impossible because China is still quite isolated due to the Communist scourge. On the other hand, a Nanyang Indian can still feel at home in Chennai due to India's openness all along.
In conclusion, a Singaporean Chinese is pegged back not once but twice. -
I think the Chinese in Malaysia is better treated than in Indonesia.Originally posted by iveco:It is worse being ethnic Chinese. Malays are always welcome in KL, Indians are generally well-accepted in the Western world. However, dark-haired people with yellow skin and flat noses usually end up being victimised by racist gangs in many places.
Chinese Malaysian in majority case hoped to stay here but majority I seen always go back to stay in Malaysia.
I asked some Chinese Malaysian in here how come they will not renounced their citizenship, they said they still prefer Malaysia.