Timor's full horror revealed
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After reading the details, i can't believe that our "friendly" neighbour is just as cruel as the Japanese during WW2
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17882883%255E2703,00.html
The commission found that as many as 183,000 people died of hunger or illness as a direct result of the occupation, while countless thousands of others were tortured, raped and brutalised. Indonesia's forcible displacement of villagers, the deliberate poisoning of crops and water sources and its refusal to allow international aid agencies to provide relief in the early stages of the occupation led to famines.
It is graphic and difficult reading, containing allegations of the mutilation of sexual organs, the burning of nipples and genitalia with cigarettes, the rape of pregnant women, and the rape and torture of women in front of their children. The commission found lists of East Timorese women who could be routinely forced to go to a military post or headquarters so that soldiers could rape them.
The armed forces and their proxies have been accused of killings by beating and torture, of burning and burying people alive, of displaying human ears and genitals to the families of the disappeared, and of ordering victims to dig their own graves before execution. -
Thats why we have NS.
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How is having NS and the thread starter topic related?Originally posted by Salman:Thats why we have NS. -
We have to have NS because the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party need our service to protect themselves - and Singapore due to their arrogance in ignoring international moral standards of governance.Originally posted by Salman:Thats why we have NS.
For the last THIRTY YEARS the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party has been supporting Indonesia in the UN - (at every UN debate on East Timor when the whole World had condemned Indonesia for forcibly taking over East Timor) - and turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed over the ruthless years by continuing with a cosy love-hate relationship with several Indonesian Presidents.
Can we trust our Politicians who conduct politics without any conscience ?
Even up till this day, against international opinions, the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party is supporting and having a very cosy relationship with the rule of the Myanmar military junta - who have consistently ignored the democratic election results of the Myanmar Citizens supporting Aung San Suu Kyi, and have continuously extended the incarceration of the daughter of the Founder of Myanmar.
The real reason for NS is that we have stepped on the toes of so many that it is best that we have a strong military so that we will be able to withstand any vengeful attempt by others for the wrong policies that the Singapore Government had made without any consideration to basic conscience.
Yet the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party dare claim to be operating with Confucian Principles. -
We have to have NS because the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party need our service to protect themselves - and Singapore due to their arrogance in ignoring international moral standards of governance.
dude don't forget our family members and friends are also living in singapore. serving NS is not for the sake of protecting those politicians, it to protect our love ones.
when war arise, unless you plan to see ur love one getting kill, rape or torture then go ahead and assume that NS is there for PAP to protect their own ass. -
you said some good things in this forum before bro .... But I can't agree with your views on NS ....Originally posted by Atobe:We have to have NS because the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party need our service to protect themselves - and Singapore due to their arrogance in ignoring international moral standards of governance.
For the last THIRTY YEARS the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party has been supporting Indonesia in the UN - (at every UN debate on East Timor when the whole World had condemned Indonesia for forcibly taking over East Timor) - and turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed over the ruthless years by continuing with a cosy love-hate relationship with several Indonesian Presidents.
Can we trust our Politicians who conduct politics without any conscience ?
Even up till this day, against international opinions, the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party is supporting and having a very cosy relationship with the rule of the Myanmar military junta - who have consistently ignored the democratic election results of the Myanmar Citizens supporting Aung San Suu Kyi, and have continuously extended the incarceration of the daughter of the Founder of Myanmar.
The real reason for NS is that we have stepped on the toes of so many that it is best that we have a strong military so that we will be able to withstand any vengeful attempt by others for the wrong policies that the Singapore Government had made without any consideration to basic conscience.
Yet the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party dare claim to be operating with Confucian Principles.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
Yes, we have been subjected to years of gamorous propaganda about the 'sparks and stars' of NS pride in defense of Singapore - all the glory of sacrifice.
you said some good things in this forum before bro .... But I can't agree with your views on NS ....
I believe in it too, and have contributed more then my fair share; and do not need any convincing to defend Singapore and the necessity of NS.
Why is it that after FORTY YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE, there still remain a need to reinforce the hoopla of psycho manipulation to GAIN TOTAL ACCEPTANCE of NS - and also the debate with the ongoing resistance to NS ?
Is it NOT TRUE that beneath all the hoopla of grand sacrifice and lofty goals of defending Singapore is that of POLITICS ?
Singapore's survival depends very much in the manner that POLITICS is conducted with our neighbors and also within our own society.
Why did the Singapore Governent a.k.a the Ruling Political Party sacrifice the basic PRINCIPLE of the right of every nation to self-identity, by supporting Indonesia in every UN debate condemning Indonesia's forced military absorbtion of East Timor ?
The East Timorese people have no blood or ethnic relationship to the Malay-Indo ethnicity, and the East Timorese people are more identical to the aboriginal tribeseman of Papua New Guinea and a distant cousin to the Australian aboriginese.
Yet the Indonesian Government claimed East Timor as their God given right to seized and rule - after Portugal decided to withdraw its colonial rule of this resource rich island.
Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.
Mao Tse-Tung (1893 - 1976) -
There no doubt that there are advantages and disadvantages with regard to NS. A country cannot survive just based on politics and hope that ppl don't invade us. You just need a crazy president in one of our neighbouring country to invade us and all will be gone down to drain.
This is something that we cannot take it for granted as there is too much at stake. Also why would we want to poke our nose into other countries politics and stuff when we have our own backyard to look after. Yes there maybe issue with their goverment, but that doesn't mean we should and we can force them to change by using santions and stuffs.
It the same as Nguyen case where there are people that try to pressure our goverment to change the law. You think you will like it when someone is telling you how to run ur own country? You won't like it isn't it? So it the same as other countries, we have no right to interfere with how they rule their own country even though we don't agree with it.
Don't forget Singapore are good at maintaining good relation with other countries. Example like we are one of the few country that can maintain good relation with BOTH China and Taiwan isn't it?
Bottom line is if you don't like someone to do that "something" to you, then you shouldn't do it to them too.
From the long history of human race, politics have always been a mixture of righteous and scheming. Even if sometime it mean having to agree with something that is not right in order to get thing done. Also governing a country is not as easy as just using mouth to say. -
Yes - "governing a country is not as easy as just using mouth to say" - then it is also not right for the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party to tell Singaporeans how to live our lives in HDB pigeon holes, while forcing us to cut our Salary and CPF accounts - when they cannot understand that it is "NOT EASY as just using the mouth" when they are paid a salary that is like a win at the big sweep lottery for any Singapore worker.
Why should the Singapore Government sit on the fence and claim the Right of every SMALL NATION to independence and non-interference, while blatantly seeing a small country such as East Timor being swallowed by Indonesia - and subjecting the East Timorese of THIRTY YEARS of Rule by Terror ?
Will anyone come to the defense of Singapore - if someone bigger walk in and despite our best defense with a limited resouce of manpower and equipment - if we do not speak out and take a more conscientious stand on such issues ?
If we stood up and supported UN debate in condemning Saddam Hussein invasion and seizure of Kuwait, why did we adopt a "blinkered" stand in the UN Debate condemning Indonesia's invasion and seizure of East Timor ?
I can understand if we do not interfere in the Internal Affairs of Myanmar, but have the Singapore Government no conscience or moral principles based on Confucian concepts to distance themselves from association with the Myanmese Military Junta ?
Why are we continuing to coddle and support the Myanmese Military Junta ?
Where are we to hide our face on the day when Aung San Suu Kyi is free to take over the reigns of Government from the Military Junta ?
Where will be our Political Standing in the eyes of our neighbors, when we have no strong basic moral principles, and pay lip service to being Confucian Principles of good governance ? -
As i said earlier, politics is a dark game where you don't always agree or disagree as there are many thing to consider. This is not up to us to decide, who know maybe you or i or someone else maybe doing the samething if we are in their shoes. Reason is simply you gotta to look at the whole picture if it is advisable. You can call it selfish or whatever, but that is just human nature.
Even if we did our best and fall at least we won't blame ourselves when we lost cos we did our best to protect our love ones. Even if they die, they will know we did our very best to protect them.
Moral issue, sadly to say it don't always exist when politics is in play because each of them will want what is best for their own countries even if it mean selfish decision.
Trade with Myanmar will do both countries good in term of economic so i don't see why we don't trade with them. Even though rumour have been around regarding laundering of drug money for them, but well it something that is yet to be fully proven.
Also if Aung San Suu Kyi is to come to power, i don't think it will cause relation to turn bad as in the view of politician, both will stand to gain if they work together.
In politics there is no forever friends nor forever enemy. Decision are made based on interest of the nation rather then personal grudge. If you are the PM and you think this country and that country and that country not doing the right things when governing their own country, do you stop trade with them? In the long run, who the one to suffer? -
You are right about being selfish and suppressing one's moral values for the sake of survival.
Even some of the most famous persons have such observations:
The great nations have always acted like gangsters, and the small nations like prostitutes.
Stanley Kubrick (1928 - ), in Guardian, June 5, 1963
No offense -
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Yeah becos of this mentalilty, all the more Singapore must stand frim and not get push around by people. So there no offense to it.
We do not want to be gangster nor a pros so the best is be frim and strong ourselves isn't that what Singapore have been doing? We don't imposed our views on other nor we let other impose their views on us. -
Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.
I like this phrase. Describe politics very well and vividly.
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I like of defence and foreign policy very much.
The total defence concept is a great deterent to any would be invaders of our land.
At the same time, we make friends with everybody, alliances with some. -
84mmrr, you have not even began to see the atrocities of the world and how the world turned a blind eye to it.. or worse, promoted it because it was profitable or convenient..
i would suggest you go find out what the hell happened in Sierra Leone and how the world didn't care because the world believed "A Diamond is Forever" and too many women lusted after bright glittery trinkets...
you may start by googling "Blood Diamonds" and "RUF" at first.. and slowly slowly start reading about it in all its gory details in this book by Greg Campbell
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The total defence concept is perfect. The only mistake is it requires the whole nation to participate. If people are not willing to do so, invaders will still be able to invade us any time our army collapse.Originally posted by Salman:I like of defence and foreign policy very much.
The total defence concept is a great deterent to any would be invaders of our land.
At the same time, we make friends with everybody, alliances with some. -
Come war, people will do what they have been trained to do cos there is no way out.
At the very least, the plan is perfect. -
Back to topic -
Lets see a balance side of the whole story.. shall we ?
US approved 1975 Indonesian invasion of East Timor
Previously secret documents published by the National Security Archive at George Washington University prove that the United States government gave the green light for the 1975 Indonesian invasion of East Timor, which resulted in the deaths of some 200,000 Timorese people over the ensuing quarter century.
At the ArchiveÂ’s request, the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library released two key declassified documents revealing the role of President Ford and his Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. The Archive posted them on its web site on December 6, accompanied by five previously unpublished State Department documents.
The documents expose the official silence and outright lies advanced over the past 26 years to deny that Ford and Kissinger were involved in, and ultimately responsible for, the atrocities carried out by the Indonesian military dictatorship.
It had been known previously that Ford and Kissinger held a discussion with General Suharto in Jakarta on the day before IndonesiaÂ’s full-scale invasion on December 7, 1975. But the precise content of the meeting has never been revealed. It was always obvious that Ford and Kissinger must have sanctioned the invasion, yet Kissinger explicitly denied this.
By the time that Ford and Kissinger visited Jakarta, the Indonesian military had already made several incursions into East Timor, the most notorious being in the border town of Balibo on October 16, 1975. Five Australian-based journalists in Balibo had been killed by the Indonesian military in an effort to prevent wide reportage of the attack.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/dec2001/kiss-d19.shtml
The militias are credibly reported to be under the direction of Kopassus, the dreaded Indonesian special forces modeled on the US Green Berets and "legendary for their cruelty," as the prominent Indonesia scholar Benedict Anderson observes. He adds that in East Timor, "Kopassus became the pioneer and exemplar for every kind of atrocity," including systematic rapes, tortures, and executions, and organization of hooded gangsters. Concurring, Australia's veteran Asia correspondent David Jenkins notes that this "crack special forces unit [had] been training regularly with US and Australian forces until their behavior became too much of an embarrassment for their foreign friends." Congress did bar US training of the killers and torturers under IMET, but the Clinton Administration found ways to evade the laws, leading to much irritation in Congress but little broader notice. Now, congressional constraints may be more effective, but without the kind of inquiry that is rarely undertaken in the case of US-backed terror, one cannot be confident.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19990826.htm
Why ? benefits who ? for Oil of course
AustraliaÂ’s plunder of East TimorÂ’s oil and gas
Both the US and Australian governments refused to publicly condemn these attacks. Gough WhitlamÂ’s Labor government even denied the incursions were taking place.
CanberraÂ’s role in this incident reflected the broader desires of Australian imperial interests in the Asia-Pacific. For East Timor, this meant brutal military occupation so that Australia-based mining and oil interests could more easily access the untapped wealth of the Timor Sea. AustraliaÂ’s acceptance of the invasion and occupation of East Timor also helped open the door for these same business interests to Indonesia itself.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2005/650/650p14.htm
East Timor: AustraliaÂ’s double betrayal
Since the East Timorese independence referendum in 1999, the Australian government has received approximately $1 billion dollars in taxes on oil taken from the Laminaria Corallina field, which is fully situated in East Timorese territory.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2004/576/576p24.htm
You see why Australia is stationing troops in Timor now... nobody does this without benefits.. you know ..
EAST TIMOR - the U.S., Australian, and European sponsored, Indonesian-invasion and genocide
This brief article contains information on how the U.S.A, U.K., Australian & other Western Governments sponsored the Indonesian plunder of East Timor from 1975 to 1999.
A good read
http://members.iinet.net.au/~eye/propaganda/articles/east_timor.html
US , British and Australia are great pals.. even operate similarly. And you want these fellows policing South East Asia ? -
Originally posted by the Bear:
I agree that there are many atrocities out there, examples in Africa: Rwanda, Congo & Sudan.
[b]84mmrr, you have not even began to see the atrocities of the world and how the world turned a blind eye to it.. or worse, promoted it because it was profitable or convenient..
i would suggest you go find out what the hell happened in Sierra Leone and how the world didn't care because the world believed "A Diamond is Forever" and too many women lusted after bright glittery trinkets...
you may start by googling "Blood Diamonds" and "RUF" at first.. and slowly slowly start reading about it in all its gory details in this book by Greg Campbell
b]
But I never expect Indonesians to be so brutal as well. That's the reason why I post this topic -
Originally posted by MobyDog:
Thank you for the links. I personally think that SG govt is in no position to influence Indonesia over this invasion. Furthermore, in 1975, we still struggling to build our economy and Army.
Back to topic -
Lets see a balance side of the whole story.. shall we ?
[b]US approved 1975 Indonesian invasion of East Timor
You see why Australia is stationing troops in Timor now... nobody does this without benefits.. you know ..
EAST TIMOR - the U.S., Australian, and European sponsored, Indonesian-invasion and genocide
This brief article contains information on how the U.S.A, U.K., Australian & other Western Governments sponsored the Indonesian plunder of East Timor from 1975 to 1999.
A good read
http://members.iinet.net.au/~eye/propaganda/articles/east_timor.html
US , British and Australia are great pals.. even operate similarly. And you want these fellows policing South East Asia ?[/b] -
The Indos are famous for atrocities. They killed 500k people in the 60s.Originally posted by 84mmrr:I agree that there are many atrocities out there, examples in Africa: Rwanda, Congo & Sudan.
But I never expect Indonesians to be so brutal as well. That's the reason why I post this topic
They conducted mass looting and rapes in 97.
These people just want to thrown mud at our govt.Originally posted by 84mmrr:Thank you for the links. I personally think that SG govt is in no position to influence Indonesia over this invasion. Furthermore, in 1975, we still struggling to build our economy and Army. -
Indon is well known of brutality. Instruct of killing, robbing and raping. All the while it happen only that we are not expose to the news or they are well lid and not spread out of Indon.
Remember the killing, and raping of indonesia chinese!!! -
My friend told me about what he saw in an Indon village while it was still under Suharto. A car overtook a military vehicle and was stopped by soldiers, the soldiers bashed the driver in broad day light.
Right after 97, I realised how important NS was and I took it very seriously after that. -
What does NS have got to do with that and why do you keep bringing NS up?
Indo soldiers commiting atrocities therefore NS is neccessary? Why? So we can defend ourselves if they decide to attack us and thus avoid East Timors' fate? Very far fetched idea. -
humans are all the same regardless of nationality and race.
the african rebels cut off the lips and ears of female villagers as a warning to them not to support the government.
imagine the insects flying into her head because she cannot close her mouth and ears.
war is a disgusting affair. all sorts of unimaginable atrocities are committed then.