M'sia to build cynic bridge
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Hope some cock don't start talking about sending the army to secure water.
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Originally posted by lwflee:
Who is talking about sending army for water ?
Hope some c[b]ock don't start talking about sending the army to secure water. [/b]
Until Newater comes along, this has been a well-known unspoken deterrance for over 3 decades. A classic example of "Speak Softly But Carry a Big Stick" policy, and it had worked, so far.
5 cens for 1 cubem3 of river water or for a brand-new million- $crooked bridge ? KL gov can talk about win-win and doing all these for Malaysian's interest while the actual fact is about $$$. Everyone knows that.
Singapore's conditions are even more interesting and it is not even about $$$:
According to Bernama report, Singapore conditions for cooperation in building a new Causeway inc ->
a) Malaysia selling sand to Singapore and
b) open up Johor airspace for its fighter jets' training purposes.
These are deals that any KL gov will find very difficult to handle within domestic politics.
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/news.php?id=179113 -
At least Mahathir's "10%" is that much more then the "no brainer, one-liners" support of the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party. .Originally posted by Salman:Really? So what does that 10% mean to you?
Can we expect more then even "10%" from you ? .
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haha, even illegal immigrants can swim across.Originally posted by 84mmrr:Well, they also think that it'll be more difficult for us to cross over.... But seriously, who needs the causeway to launch an attack? Johor Straits to not a difficult obstacle for any modern army to cross.
http://www.littlespeck.com/content/development/CTrendsDev-060204.htm -
I think mahathir must be tried in court for his 10% corruption like Saddam.
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Can you think at all, let alone thinking clearly in any way as reflected in your "no brainer, one-liners" ? .Originally posted by Salman:I think mahathir must be tried in court for his 10% corruption like Saddam.
What has Mahathir's 10% of Malaysian money got to do with you ? .
Look at your own backyard before you look at others - if he is taking 10% of every contract, we are losing MILLIONS wrapped up legitimately from our own reserves besides the losses incurred with all the BILLION DOLLAR foreign acquisitions. .
Still taking a long coffee break with your cup of "black crude" ? . -
let's not be too arrogant about this, just in case some overwhelmed, green-eyed neighbor see this and start all over again on the issue of who's army is greater, bigger and so on.Originally posted by storywolf:Frankly the causeway to Singapore army is nothing. We don't need it in military sense, because only an idiot would try to send an army using it when the other side will sure to mine it , and put every damn artillery and gun at it.
A modern army like singapore alway have opinion of crossing where ever they like, which is alway an element of surprise which defenders will not able to predict where.
i believe a bridge is still necessary for any army to secure n use it to its fullest effectiveness due to logistical and strategical purposes.
element of surprise is a gain in the upper hand in any battle/war but without the necessary infrastructure that is currently in place to aid the above mentioned (logistics) for pro-longed battle n supplies to the frontal soldiers, the war is not going to last long.
if you have seen movies like band of brothers and others, securing bridges, towns and so on is significant for army HQs and especially so for the moving battalions which may be used strategically as a delay (lasting days and even weeks?) to re-inforce their own armies up front. artillery, mines and so on can be countered with but still the bridge is there. so why not use it instead?
on crossing the singapore/johor straits, yes, modern armies have many choices but certainly it will have other consequences like heavier casualties, logistically burden-some and so on. time is also crucial in maneuvering equipments and personnel across...not that singapore is not already capable of all these and more. (hush hush now)
for their (defenders and aggressors alike) intellegence to predict it is up to their resourcefulness and perhaps like they say, brain-power which hmmm..... i quote someone in this thread...."10%"? -
wow...u seem to be 'defending' ur beloved passe Dr. M alot. i really mean ALOT!Originally posted by Atobe:Can you think at all, let alone thinking clearly in any way as reflected in your "no brainer, one-liners" ? .
What has Mahathir's 10% of Malaysian money got to do with you ? .
Still taking a long coffee break with your cup of "black crude" ? .
let me ask u a question...why does our neighbors like to call us names all the time?
is it so difficult to grow up a little more? -
Atobe is a traitor that wants to destroy Singapore, thats why he supports terrorists like Mahathir.
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let me put this straight...i have no intention of stepping in to both of your squabble but seeing this (10% more?) i believe:Originally posted by Atobe:At least Mahathir's "10%" is that much more then the "no brainer, one-liners" support of the Singapore Government a.k.a the Ruling Political Party. .
Can we expect more then even "10%" from you ? .
1. at least salman supported a cleaner govt.
2. Dr. M's 10%, if he wants it, take it for himself and shut up the big gap.
3. from living in singapore's POV, i think we have more than 10% (not of corruption) but even more than that in value both in terms of standard of living, currency exchange rates, public housing, public facilities, a better racial harmony, equality in different races and so on so forth.
4. we 'try' not to call others names first.
5. play fair
6. cleaner roads, cleaner air quality
7. no police to stop and 'demand' that you pay a fine which said they have your vehicle captured in their supposedly cameras as proof? (please refer to point 5)
8. better education standards
do we have more than 10% of what you have mentioned? i certainly think so. -
one of the reasons why PAP are able to sue ppl to bankrupt is becos these ppl can't refrain themselve from shooting their mouth off by calling other names, insulting, saying thing that doesn't have any basis.
in any situation especially politics this type of behaviour is totally disgraceful and unprofessional. and defintely it not abt freedom of speech nor right of anyone. so it better to keep calling ppl names etc isn't it? -
Dr Mahathir thought he is crazy, he offends ppl easily...
Think many simply have forgotten what he said on V day 4 years ago.. His attitude is partly to blame for the strain in bilateral relations
As for water, anything from the seperate agreement cannot be changed
War? It is a senitive topic...
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It depends on how you see that 10%: a prized statistic or a fair reflection of the costs vs standard of living in each country?Originally posted by tiggersgd:3. from living in singapore's POV, i think we have more than 10% (not of corruption) but even more than that in value both in terms of standard of living, currency exchange rates, public housing, public facilities, a better racial harmony, equality in different races and so on so forth..
While you have decidedly pointed out that SG benefits from just about every comparison vs Malaysia, does the 10%, when translated into physical attributes, match up to a our Malaysian counterparts? This when comparing our soaring oil prices, property costs, utilities and basic costs?
What price is this 10% worth to us in term of the exponential rise in basic costs compared to the low costs of living of our neighbours?
It is regrettable that our neighbours resort to name calling during elections or over minor diplomatic disputes. But remember that while Dr M has labelled us in the past, he is hardly alone in this matter. It is the manner of malaysian politics to dwell on nit-picking to gain every inch of political mileage, even at a neighbour's expense.Originally posted by tiggersgd:4. we 'try' not to call others names first.
And while i respect your decency and 'fair play', you should also realise that there is simply NO SUCH THING AS FAIR PLAY in politics; just look at our local scene: Does Seetoh Yin Bin resort to unscrupulous tactics to gain the same mileage in his rivalry with Chiam ST in Potong Pasir? Is re-drawing electorial boundaries at the last min a fair deal to opposition chances? Is the use of GRCs to 'bring more neophytes' who ride on the coat tails of better known politicians considered FAIR? And you think Malaysia was bad...Originally posted by tiggersgd:5. play fair.
Cleaner roads? Cleaner air quality?Originally posted by tiggersgd:6. cleaner roads, cleaner air quality.
Malaysian roads vs SG roads? Apple to orange comparison? Is that a fair assessment at all? Have you seen the massive LAND MASS that is Malaysia against the TINY DOT that is SG?
And i assume you're refering to vehicle exhausts with regards to cleaner air quality? Have you seen the TON of Malaysian BIKES releasing their carcenogic gases onto SG roads? Why the double standards in ensuring SG drivers comply with Viacom standards when they fail to enforce those of our neighbours? Again you think the fair play of Malaysian authorities is bad?
Bribery is always there; Malaysian police is rifle with them. But the main culprit is an impossibly large workforce and relatively low pay. There have been cases of bribery concerning our local boys in blue as well, even with a decent pay.Originally posted by tiggersgd:7. no police to stop and 'demand' that you pay a fine which said they have your vehicle captured in their supposedly cameras as proof? (please refer to point 5).
Have you encountered the Malaysian Chinese? Despite the Malaysian education system, many of them are way better performers than us, this despite our 'world-class education' system. And certainly, SG meritocracy has benefitted us, allowing all races a fair shot at the cake; instead of Malaysian politics insisting on bumiputra laws that include reserving a fixed number of university seats to safeguard the interests of the Malay majority.Originally posted by tiggersgd:8. better education standards.
No comment here...you can draw your own conclusion after a while in SC.Originally posted by tiggersgd:1. at least salman supported a cleaner govt. -
You tickle my toes with your characteristic "no brainer, one-liner" .Originally posted by Salman:Atobe is a traitor that wants to destroy Singapore, thats why he supports terrorists like Mahathir.
Mahathir a 'terrorists'
Look at the mirror, perhaps you see a bigger 'TERRORIST' - like all terrorists are .
'NO BRAINERS' . 
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Originally posted by tiggersgd:
Defending ?
wow...u seem to be 'defending' ur beloved passe Dr. M alot. i really mean ALOT!
let me ask u a question...why does our neighbors like to call us names all the time?
is it so difficult to grow up a little more?
Or are we supposed to be one cut above the name calling neighbors ?
Should a First World Nation such as Singapore stoop so low and compete with a Third World neighbor for the title of 'Number ONE name caller' ?Originally posted by tiggersgd:
If you can see anything straight about a 'crooked' 10% - you got alot more to learn. .
let me put this straight...i have no intention of stepping in to both of your squabble but seeing this (10% more?) i believe:1. at least salman supported a cleaner govt.
"Salman supported a cleaner govt." .
That is a big joke - Salman's 'no brainer' attitude can hardly differentiate what is 'clean' or 'dirty' . .
With so much secrecy shrouding the workings of the Singapore Government, GIC, Temasek Holdings - all of which even the Elected Presidency is thwarted from finding out the extent of Singapore's Reserves, and the Elected President's powers further tweaked to prevent a repeat confrontation - can anyone see anything straight in Singapore Politics ? .2. Dr. M's 10%, if he wants it, take it for himself and shut up the big gap.
Surely, one ought to be fairer to a person of Dr M's stature as a PM of our "respectable" neighbor - whom we have to live till posterity. .
At least, he did not make any foolish attempt as Sukarno had done, but have given tacit moral support towards those who fled the ruthless political persecution of Singapore Opposition. .
Even in the lowest ebb of the negotiation between Malaysia and Singapore, the water supply was not cut off - compared to what Putin had done in the bleakest of winter towards the Ukrainians by cutting off gas supply. .
Lastly, is it morally right for anyone to base our opinion of anyone based on loose talk - especially that of Dr M is "Mr Ten Percent" ? .3. from living in singapore's POV, i think we have more than 10% (not of corruption) but even more than that in value both in terms of standard of living, currency exchange rates, public housing, public facilities, a better racial harmony, equality in different races and so on so forth.
We certainly "have more than 10% (not of corruption)" - but at WHAT COST to the population ? .
A population that has become DE-POLITICIZED, threatened into SILENCE, held CAPTIVE to a system that only further contribute to the annual surplus, IMPOTENT to express the desparate situation that Singaporeans are trapped in a Political System that perpetuate the continued strength of only the Ruling Political Party. .
Singaporeans may have a stronger currency vis-a-vis the currencies of our neighbors, but what is the intrinsic value of the Singapore Dollar ?
When Singapore embarked on an industrialization program and abandoned our agricultural and primary food production efforts, we were told of the benefits in following a policy of Comparative Advantage.
Yet - despite a strong economy and a strong currency - our Cost of Living is much higher than that of our neighbors, whose weaker currency exceed a difference more than "10%" . . 
4. we 'try' not to call others names first.
Names have already been called, when we label a leader of our closest neighbor a "Mr Ten Percent". .
We have also a stupendous 'Swine' - who supports the political system of the Animal Farm - and labelled all as 'whiners' who complained about the policies of those Elites with 2-legs and forgotten the years of toil and support from all in the Animal Farm. .5. play fair
Play fair ?
When a "no brainer" whose capability is limited only to "one-liners" - and able to retort by "name calling" and false accusation of 'treachery' - can we believe in fair play ? .
The 'no brainer' has used his limited capacity to learn the disparaging tactics very well from the 'elites' who feel threatened by those more capable. -
continuing post:
6. cleaner roads, cleaner air quality
Are our 'roads and air quality' any cleaner cleaner than that of our neighbors ?
Can our highways be better and safer designed than the Malaysian highways ?
Can the air quality of our city roadways beat the air quality of the open highways ?
Singaporeans have always to be reminded of their civic and social conciousness towards a cleaner habit with too many repeated campaigns and enforced social habits by punishments and hefty fines, and yet we see a heap of litter after every public event. .
Without any campaigns, the roadways and highways of our neighbors are perhaps comparable to ours and with much less coersion to the citizens.7. no police to stop and 'demand' that you pay a fine which said they have your vehicle captured in their supposedly cameras as proof? (please refer to point 5)
Yes, the 'demand' is made by our Police based on ridiculous traffic rules that are designed to enrich their 'pockets' - while the ruling elite get to move around at speeds that exceed the ridiculous 70kmh on all roads UNLESS marked as such. Meanwhile, Singaporeans are forced to travel at speeds that either increase the fuel consumption of the present day vehicles, or pay hefty fines when we exceed the purposefully set lower speeds on our roads and highways. .
As for that part concerning 'fair play' in Point 5 - is our Police capable of
'fair play' - when they "apply the law" with double standards ? .
One for the Ruling Political Party, and the other for the Citizens - including those with the Opposition Party. .
Remember the most recent 'White Elephant' events organised by school girls ? .8. better education standards
Where is our "better education standards" leading our young Singaporeans ?
Have you benefitted yourself with the thread "Our Young best US Students, but fizzle out as Adults" - which reflects the quality of our "better education standards" ? .do we have more than 10% of what you have mentioned? i certainly think so.
We certainly have more than 10% of what is being mentioned :
- a higher cost of living that is more then 10% higher than our neighbors;
- each year more than 10% of our reserves is spent on foreign acquisitions that benefit others;
- each year more than 10% of the average annual wage is paid to our Political Elites;
- each year more than 10% of our locked-up CPF is lost in depreciated value -
to all those that replied my posts:
thank you! what a broad view offered.
from what i have read, it seems like you peeps (billy-whatever and atobe) are not so 'happy' in staying in singapore. if that's so, why not migrate over to our neighbouring country/ies? perhaps a walk across the causeway this time will do you good to see if things like 10%, rubbish, air quality etc etc is indeed better. i will still stick to ours being better...just becos singapore being a developed country with standards maintained. yes, perhaps singapore is still far from countries like japan, US or even germany but we have achieved high standards through our people over the years.
i think to compare between singapore and malaysia (or any country with singapore) in the first place is not feasible. this is bcos there's simply no comparison between a developed country and that of a developing country. not only that, it is not an apple to apple comparison (even apples have different grades). this is what i need to emphasize.
as for the half 'bridge', it is a good indication of what our nearest neighbor has always wanted but can they go ahead alone?....we shall see.
to achieve maximum economies of scale, i still believe both govts should work out a win-win situation rather than something that is one-sided which in the end may invite the whole world's ridicule. -
for educational standards:
let's put it this way, that the chinese and esp. so for the richer and elite ones, they have their chinese-organised schools and some whom like my malaysian relatives, chose to go overseas for their higher education.
period. -
atobe,
i think u need to cool down and perhaps review what u have replied (police etc).
if u think the current ruling party of singapore is not allowed excess to the roads and exceed the speed limit when necessary while escorted by the traffic police, what makes u think that any other countries' ambassadors or officials that are on visit get this treatment and vice versa due to the nature that they ARE the BIG SHOTS while u r not?
this is liken to saying that Dr. M should not have the 10% and so on benefits as a ex-PM of m'sia...or even more so since he has stepped down? -
It was a wonderful way to exercise an alternative point of view.Originally posted by tiggersgd:to all those that replied my posts:
thank you! what a broad view offered.
Did we hint that we are not happy in staying in Singapore, or did we indicate that we are not happy (dissatisfied) with the Politics in Singapore ?
from what i have read, it seems like you peeps (billy-whatever and atobe) are not so 'happy' in staying in singapore. if that's so, why not migrate over to our neighbouring country/ies? perhaps a walk across the causeway this time will do you good to see if things like 10%, rubbish, air quality etc etc is indeed better. i will still stick to ours being better...just becos singapore being a developed country with standards maintained. yes, perhaps singapore is still far from countries like japan, US or even germany but we have achieved high standards through our people over the years.
"Rubbish" is "rubbish" - 10% or otherwise - anywhere in the world, they smell the same - why be pettily conceited to the extent that we must even insist that "ours being better" ?
I am glad that you have indicated that we have achieved high standards THROUGH our people over the years.
Yes, Singaporeans - the little, middle, and big ones - all have placed the shoulders to make the success happen.
Is Singapore a "developed" country ?
i think to compare between singapore and malaysia (or any country with singapore) in the first place is not feasible. this is bcos there's simply no comparison between a developed country and that of a developing country. not only that, it is not an apple to apple comparison (even apples have different grades). this is what i need to emphasize.
How can a "developed" country earn the wages of a "developing" country, and the Standard of Living that is lower than that of the "developing" country ?
Yes, apples have different grades - some may have the same tone but they differ in size and juicyness.
If what is claimed to be true, and if a 10% is to be earned, do you think that a half-bridge is enough ?
as for the half 'bridge', it is a good indication of what our nearest neighbor has always wanted but can they go ahead alone?....we shall see.
The delay has as much to do with our side as it is from their side, and the stubborness, pride, personal stakes plus historical baggage makes the issues even more complicated.
Can the building of the bridge be in exchange for air space and water only, or are there more issues that require full settlement ?
One sticking point is the tract of railway land - from the Railway station and all the space that the railroad occupy - will fall into disuse, once the train stops operating into Singapore, or the station is relocated to the vicinity of the Woodlands Checkpoint.
A clause in the Colonial Agreement transferred to the Malaysia-Singapore Separation Agreement had indicated that at any time in the future, if ever the railroad is no longer in use, all the land will be returned to the Singapore Government.
Surprisingly, not much has been said about this matter in all the publicity that fly around the debate.
Well said, and much depend on the goodwill and sincerity to conclude a good deal and build a good bridge.
to achieve maximum economies of scale, i still believe both govts should work out a win-win situation rather than something that is one-sided which in the end may invite the whole world's ridicule. -
Originally posted by tiggersgd:
Does it not strike you that despite a lower rate of exchange for the Malaysian Ringgit, it allows the Malaysian family to own a landed property, staple food on the table that is available at a lower cost, imported car, enough savings left from a smaller salary paid in ringgit to fund the child to an overseas university ?
for educational standards:
let's put it this way, that the chinese and esp. so for the richer and elite ones, they have their chinese-organised schools and some whom like my malaysian relatives, chose to go overseas for their higher education.
period.
Could this be due to the fact that the Malaysian Government is busy ensuring that the referenced "10%" is used to control the cost of staple food, petrol, wage increases for the Malaysian workers, civil servants, and government leaders as well ? -
Originally posted by tiggersgd:
In one of his final speeches at the Kallang National Day Rally, LKY once said that GOOD Government need to "rule by example" .
atobe,
i think u need to cool down and perhaps review what u have replied (police etc).
if u think the current ruling party of singapore is not allowed excess to the roads and exceed the speed limit when necessary while escorted by the traffic police, what makes u think that any other countries' ambassadors or officials that are on visit get this treatment and vice versa due to the nature that they ARE the BIG SHOTS while u r not?
this is liken to saying that Dr. M should not have the 10% and so on benefits as a ex-PM of m'sia...or even more so since he has stepped down?
This is one of the list of his "Ten Commandments" of good governance.
Ambassadors, visiting officials are given special treatment like any guests are afforded our best hospitality at the least inconvenience, so as to leave a lasting good impression of our Singapore.
What about the Singapore Citizens ?
We are treated like Second Class Citizens in our own home - with road speed set at a ridiculous 70kmh for normal roads, 80 to 90kmh on 3 lane roads or expressways - when the high efficiency cars can do higher speed safely so as to achieve better fuel economy.
Road speeds are not ADVISORY warnings of caution but are STRICTLY ENFORCED leaving Singapore Drivers without any flexibility to adjust to real time traffic conditions.
Driving along the PIE or ECP at 02.00a.m. - where no cars are sighted for long stretches, one still have to adhere to the 90kmh speed.
Have you ever tried driving along Bukit Timah Road, or Upper Thomson Road, or AMK Avenue 1, or AMK-Hougang Ave 3, or Farrer-Adam Road, or Braddell-Bartley Roads at off-peak hours in the day or in the middle of the night, when the roads are desserted or traffic very light ?
Under such road conditions, can one resist to drive an extra 10 to 20 kmh above the set limits of 70kmh that is blanket speed on all secondary roads ?
These are the areas where our traffic cops will ingeniously hide behind bushes, or seated on pedestrian overhead bridges - at odd hours of the day and night - armed with the latest midget size laser camera speed detector, to nab the Singaporean drivers trying to get home quickly after a long day.
Most Singapore drivers lack initiative or imagination when encountered with a situation where the system breaks down.
In most other 'Third World' cities around this region, whenever traffic lights breaks down, the drivers will exercise initiative and imagination to overcome the situation; and will allow each side to have the right of way. It will be seldom that any TRAFFIC JAM will occur, and with minor accidents occurring at the most remote possibility.
Can the same happen in Singapore ? Hardly. The Singaporean Driver is accustomed to move on green, stop at red; and when the system breaks down ? Unfortunately, time and again, under the same circumstances, it is common to see the Singaporean drivers become confused, scared, and sweat as they attempt to get over the major road crossing.
Singaporeans have become so accustomed to Orderly and Organised way of Life, that they will be lost whenever the System breaks down.
Is this not the sad state of affairs with the Singaporean attitude towards POLITICS - the fear of change leading to a system breakdown ?
The fear to cross that major road crossing when the lights are out ? -
Originally posted by Atobe:
If ist so good, why are so many Msians coming over here to work?
Does it not strike you that despite a lower rate of exchange for the Malaysian Ringgit, it allows the Malaysian family to own a landed property, staple food on the table that is available at a lower cost, imported car, enough savings left from a smaller salary paid in ringgit to fund the child to an overseas university ?
Could this be due to the fact that the Malaysian Government is busy ensuring that the referenced "10%" is used to control the cost of staple food, petrol, wage increases for the Malaysian workers, civil servants, and government leaders as well ? -
We support a clean govt and down with the corrupt govt of Msia!
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Originally posted by Salman:
Your "no brainer, one-liner" never fail to amaze me - asking the very obvious to get yourself a knock for failing to THINK.
If ist so good, why are so many Msians coming over here to work?
If those Malaysians who do not come over to work, can enjoy a standard of living that is so much higher in REAL TERMS with wages in Malaysian Ringgit, how much higher do you think will be the standard of those Malaysians - who decide to cross over to earn Singapore Dollars and return to Malaysia at the end of each working day ? .
If you cannot fathom the answer, we know it better than you, so save your breadth by not asking. .