Cartoon of Mohammad creates International Row.
-
Salman, are you on crack? The Rashidun caliphs did not attack Christians and Jews or force them to convert during the first century of Islamic expansion. Instead, they offered them protection in return for a poll tax or kharaj. The reason for their defeat in Tours was due to the fact that Charles Martel's army was stronger than that of the Umayyads.
-
Offered protection in return for poll tax huh?Originally posted by iveco:Salman, are you on crack? The Rashidun caliphs did not attack Christians and Jews or force them to convert during the first century of Islamic expansion. Instead, they offered them protection in return for a poll tax or kharaj. The reason for their defeat in Tours was due to the fact that Charles Martel's army was stronger than that of the Umayyads.
Why should anyone pay the caliph protection money? Protection from whom?
What right does the caliph have to collect tax from anyone? What if they don't pay this protection money?
Sounds more like extortion to me.
You people always claim that jihad is defensive war so please prove to me that jihad is indeed defensive war.
If any of you can show me from the Quran and hadiths that any Muslim was killed by non Muslims before Muhamad started his jihads, I will convert to Islam immediately and support jihad. -
%^&^%%& lah! bloody hell! you wont like it if anyone just draw Jesus's face anyhow or the Buddha's face anyhow rite?Originally posted by lwflee:At the risk of having a Fatwa being issued against me, I present the cartoons.
http://www.muslimparody.com/Danish.html
Rascists, and people easily influenced please DO NOT click on the link. Reasonable, clear minded persons feel free to click on the link. Ditto for people easily offended. IE If you are one of those who ,before or after watching a movie, listening to some music, or seeing a cartoon, would be inspired to hate anyone/any organization, then please fcuk off and do not click on the link.
i mean could you just leave %$^&ing muslims alone??????????????????
For God's sake!!!!
#$%^&*
Muslims got every right to be ANGRY sia!!!!!!!
-
relaks lah. Got right to be angry, but no right to attack embassies and churches.Originally posted by unknown_member:%^&^%%& lah! bloody hell! you wont like it if anyone just draw Jesus's face anyhow or the Buddha's face anyhow rite?
i mean could you just leave %$^&ing muslims alone??????????????????
For God's sake!!!!
#$%^&*
Muslims got every right to be ANGRY sia!!!!!!! -
Budhist dun got storning embassies n torching places up , same goes to Hinduism , Christianity. and the rest. Its because Muslims were preached to eradicate n totally convert the WORLD to Islam. Its in thier Quran. If u read it carefully , they were told to go to places where they are moderates...marry the locals , convert n so on. get into politics n then change the enire country. Its written.. thats why they all acted like that. THey can burn our churches but we cant burn thier mosques?? whats whit that !
Latest case is the republication of the Danish newspaper in the Sarawak Tribune in Kuching Sarawak. In case u guys dont know.. the chief editor is told to resign if his explanaition is not up to satisfaction. Plus the muslims in Sarawak didnt go on a frenzy.. if they do.. they will just be gangbanged population 3 to 1 ratio .
But at least muslims here are tolerant n moderate lo. -
hi all,
allow me to share my two cents worth.
while some of us here are really angry at what happened, do we group together and go burn some buildings or etc? No, why? If yes, why?
Look @ what is happening in certain parts of the countries where people are storming the buildings, what really will get one man off his seat to storm a building.
For me, I smell a rat. Someone who is put there to start the small fire which now has grown and grown.
To fan the fire and put such comics on our newspapers is not to show freedom of speech but to show religious contempt at what all Singaporeans have built up for the past 20-30 years - Peace.
This five simple letters (Peace) is what seperated us. So I urge all to hold dear to this for once we lose it, we won't be able to get it back so easily again. Look @ iraq. -
We may not even have to look at the Quran. The history books may well be good enough.Originally posted by Salman:You people always claim that jihad is defensive war so please prove to me that jihad is indeed defensive war.
If any of you can show me from the Quran and hadiths that any Muslim was killed by non Muslims before Muhamad started his jihads, I will convert to Islam immediately and support jihad. -
This cartoon issue seemed to be quoted out of context. It was not actually meant to criticize any religion but to support freedom of speech. Bear's referral on Boston Globe:
Jyllands-Posten, Denmark's largest daily, commissioned the cartoons to make a point about freedom of speech. It was protesting the climate of intimidation that had made it impossible for a Danish author to find an illustrator for his children's book about Mohammed. No artist would agree to illustrate the book for fear of being harmed by Muslim extremists. Appalled by this self-censorship, Jyllands-Posten invited Danish artists to submit drawings of Mohammed, and published the 12 it received. -
History showed that jihads were mostly aggressive, making unprovoked attacks on others. I am very fair, I do not judge a religion by the behaviors of its followers but by its teachings. Thats why I am offering you a chance to explain it from the Quran and hadith perspective.Originally posted by iveco:We may not even have to look at the Quran. The history books may well be good enough.
Can you please show me from the Quran & hadiths if any Muslim was killed by non Muslims before Muhamad started jihad on others? -
Firstly, I'm a Muslim Singaporean. If, from my first sentence, you feel that my views are going to be biased. Feel free to be that way.
Obviously, the recent caricatures of Prophet Muhammad has caused an uproar in countries where majority of the population are Muslims. even so in European countries where there are Muslims. I would like to highlight that Islamic teachings brought down by regulated organisations (like madrasahs, MUIS and religious groups in Singapore) and those by insane, wayward radical islamic extremists are WAY different.
Nevertheless, in Singapore, I can't deny that all Singapore Muslims are so true to the religion. We come out tops in crimes. There are also some who drink and gamble. Teenagers take part in pre-marital sex and gang crimes. The Malay-Muslim community has come together to clamp down on such instances. There is still a long way to go but surely, we are on the right track.
In Islam, Muslims are not even allowed to visualise how Allah and Prophet Muhammad looks like. What we know, is that they are there. And we may get to see them once we pass on. This time round, the Danish media draws Prophet Muhammad. Not only that, Prophet Muhammad is portrayed as a terrorist!
Free press is an incentive. But they have abused it by doing such things.
Worldwide, secular, mainstream Muslims have been trying hard to blend with everyone else after 9/11. Unfortunately, racial discrimination is something that we can't avoid in this world. We've been trying hard, but each time we're at it, the provoking gets larger, such as the drawing of the Prophet Muhammad. I believe those who are rioting in Indonesia and the Middle East are those who just couldnt take it anymore. In Singapore, we're just in a bubble. We can't do much, we know that. By rioting, we know we've let Allah down. He who strictly doesnt condone violence, we've done it. We Muslims must get back on our feet and be more faithful to him. We've seen His power in natural disaters like the tsunami tragedy.
About the Muslim infidels who are rioting, leave them alone. Let them be. One day, He would punish them.
But my stance is that, the Danish have gone too much on the caricatures. If there are Muslim organisations that have drawings of Buddha and Jesus Christ portrayed in a similar manner, common sense would already tell you they're radical Muslims. -
Wish every Muslim is like you my friend. But unfortunately, thats not good enough. You still kinda justify the rioting. There is absolutely no justification for such things. You should condemn it w/o qualifications.
Buddhists don't riot over the destruction of irreplacable giant buddhas or beheading of monks. Catholics didn't riot over the attempted assasinsation of the pope. Why are Muslims rioting over cartoons? What peace and tolerance is there in this religion?
Also unfortunately, there are enough of those fanatics among Muslims, both terrorists and their sympathisers that give islam a bad name. You will never be able to change them.
As for the state of the Muslim youths in Singapore, I feel very sorry about that too. Wish i can help. -
Well, to the matter of fact, i agree that buddhist , christian and the rest dont go stoning, and burning down other ppls' embassy and even religious place.Originally posted by BadzMaro:Budhist dun got storning embassies n torching places up , same goes to Hinduism , Christianity. and the rest. Its because Muslims were preached to eradicate n totally convert the WORLD to Islam. Its in thier Quran. If u read it carefully , they were told to go to places where they are moderates...marry the locals , convert n so on. get into politics n then change the enire country. Its written.. thats why they all acted like that. THey can burn our churches but we cant burn thier mosques?? whats whit that !
Latest case is the republication of the Danish newspaper in the Sarawak Tribune in Kuching Sarawak. In case u guys dont know.. the chief editor is told to resign if his explanaition is not up to satisfaction. Plus the muslims in Sarawak didnt go on a frenzy.. if they do.. they will just be gangbanged population 3 to 1 ratio . But at least muslims here are tolerant n moderate lo.
Eg, the most recent case a catholic priest was shot dead by a kid and the kid ran away by shouting " Allah Akhbar"
In Indonesia, during the Chinese massacre , these ppl go around raping, burning ppl house ,temples and churches. I had came across pictures showing a buddhist temple being damaged , burned and sprayed " Allah Akhbar"
- If these ppl are the "black" sheep, it is just too much and the religous leaders must do something serious about it if they carry the "muslim" name, if not , you would be responsible for the hatred.
-quote" This passage has been cited to justify expelling non-Muslims from Muslim countries. But Imam Hendi says that not only does the Qur'an avoid any such suggestion, it even prohibits aggressive efforts to convert. "No Muslim is allowed to go out and force people to become Muslim. In the early days of Islam, Jews came to Islam and had younger children and asked Muhammad if they could force Islam on their children because they are younger. This verse [which was] revealed to him says that there can be no compulsion on other religions. This is very clear. "
I am sorry, i beg to differ. Take a look at Malaysia's law. Anyone who marries a muslim, MUST be a muslim. Is this not forcing? if this is not, what would be consider yes? There is basically no freedom in choosing if u love a muslim spouse.
Sometimes ppl around the world get angry for a certain reason. I believe what the danish did was wrong. However, it is always wrong to resolve in violence. An act of evil to correct a wrong/evil deed will never consider to be right.
I had close muslims frens and they are nice ppl. They obey and do have moral values in them. However, you got to admit " the flock of black sheep" is growing day by day and if the muslim community doesnt take action to prevent this, then you could not blame the world for their reaction.
I believe it takes 2 hands to clap. Just take a greater depth to find out what these ppl had done to the chinese in indonesia during the riot and to other victims around the world including the attempt to murder the pope ( forgiven by pope) .
Just my comments and i do not mean to flame anyone. -
I am sorry to say this and hurt you, but let us think deeperOriginally posted by sinicker:But my stance is that, the Danish have gone too much on the caricatures. If there are Muslim organisations that have drawings of Buddha and Jesus Christ portrayed in a similar manner, common sense would already tell you they're radical Muslims.
Draiwng Jesus potraying in similar manner VS attempt to murder pope
Did any catholic throw a single stone to any mosque? Not only that, the Pope Himself FORGIVES.
Recently a murder of a priest in Italy . What is these killing spree of religous leader compare to drawing pictures?
We kept quiet but that doesnt mean there is nothing happening.
NOW, think again , what will happen if there is a single gun shot to a major Muslim cleric in Mekkah?
We believe in peace, and love. That's what bind everything. Resolving something evil by using evil isnt the path of God. -
If only more muslims can think like you... Alas, many muslims in sg, shockingly, do harbour rather "extreme" views and needless to say, seige mentality.Originally posted by sinicker:Firstly, I'm a Muslim Singaporean. If, from my first sentence, you feel that my views are going to be biased. Feel free to be that way.
...
Most muslims i know and speak to actually not just condone but in fact encourage terrorism! They couraged the 9/11 incident and hoped for more of such events to put USA in its place.
They also have this "everyone is discriminating against me because they worship aflse Gods" mentality. When a terrorist kidnaps and beheads a foreigner, when a bomb kills hundreds of non believer, they tell me its good.
Of course these are MY FEW FRIENDS AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE AVERAGE MUSLIM IN SG.
The point I'm trying to bring up is that, I was rather shocked at this as I thought muslims in sg are very very moderate and do no condone senseless killing and bombings. -
Cartoon Protests Deadly in Afghanistan
By DANIEL COONEY
Associated Press Writer
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- International peacekeepers clashed Tuesday with Afghans protesting drawings of the Prophet Muhammad, leaving three demonstrators dead and prompting NATO to send reinforcements to a remote northern city.
Senior Afghan officials said al-Qaida and the Taliban could be exploiting anger over the cartoons to incite violence, which spread to at least six cities in a second day of bloody unrest in Afghanistan.
Demonstrations rumbled on around the Muslim world, and the political repercussions deepened, with Iran suspending all trade and economic ties with Denmark, where the drawings were first published. The Danish prime minister called the protests a global crisis and appealed for calm.
In a new turn, a prominent Iranian newspaper, Hamshahri, invited artists to enter a Holocaust cartoon competition, saying it wanted to see if freedom of expression - the banner under which many Western publications reprinted the prophet drawings - also applied to Holocaust images.
The drawings - including one depicting the prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb - have touched a raw nerve among Muslims. Islam is interpreted to forbid any illustrations of Muhammad for fear they could lead to idolatry.
Violence has escalated sharply in Afghanistan this week, and seven people have died in demonstrations during the past two days. Protests, sometimes involving armed men, have been directed at foreign and Afghan government targets - fueling suspicions there's more behind the unrest than religious sensitivities.
"It's an incredibly emotive issue. This is something that really upset Afghans," said Joanna Nathan, senior Afghanistan analyst at the International Crisis Group, a Brussels-based research institute. "But it is also being used to agitate and motivate the crowds by those against the government and foreign forces" in Afghanistan.
On Tuesday, protesters armed with assault rifles and grenades attacked the NATO base in the northern city of Maymana, which is manned by peacekeepers from Norway, Finland, Latvia and Sweden, local officials said.
Sayed Aslam Ziaratia, the provincial deputy police chief, said three protesters were shot and killed by Afghan and Norwegian forces and that 22 others were wounded. However, NATO said it only fired live ammunition into the air and rubber bullets. Five Norwegian peacekeepers suffered minor injuries.
Provincial governor Mohammed Latif said he suspected al-Qaida may have had a hand in the unrest. He said two men from eastern Afghanistan were arrested during the protest and were being interrogated.
"The violence today looked like a massive uprising. It was very unusual," Latif said.
On Monday, about 2,000 protesters tried to storm the main U.S. military base at Bagram, the hub of the operations for some 20,000 American forces in the country. Police shot dead two protesters. A top local official said al-Qaida and Taliban militants incited the crowd.
Defense Minister Abdul Rahim Wardak told The Associated Press by telephone Tuesday that it was possible militants egged on the demonstrators, but he stressed the government has no evidence.
"Once these crowds get together, they often get out of control, here and in other countries," he said. "But if this goes on, we're going to have to take a closer look to see if there is more behind it."
The unrest in Maymana prompted NATO to send 150 British troops to help secure the base, and two American A-10 attack aircraft were flown to the city. The U.N. evacuated nonessential staff.
In Washington, President Bush called Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to express "our solidarity and support." A Danish newspaper first printed the cartoons of Muhammad in September, and they were reprinted this month by other European papers, setting off a new round of proptests.
Bush and Fogh Rasmussen agreed that all sides must move forward "through dialogue and tolerance, not violence," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.
In Copenhagen, Fogh Rasmussen showed no sign of diverting from his government's stance that it cannot apologize for the actions of an independent newspaper, as demanded by governments in several Muslim nations.
Fogh Rasmussen called the protests "a growing global crisis."
Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said Tuesday that publication of the caricatures was an Israeli conspiracy motivated by anger over the victory of the militant Hamas group in last mont's Palestinian elections.
"The West condemns any denial of the Jewish Holocaust, but it permits the insult of Islamic sanctities," Khamenei said.
Tuesday saw the biggest protest yet in Pakistan, where 5,000 people chanted, "Hang the man who insulted the prophet," and burned effigies of one cartoonist and Denmark's prime minister. The rally ended peacefully.
Thousands of Egyptians and Jordanians also demonstrated peacefully, calling for a boycott of Danish products and the cutting of ties with Copenhagen. -
"To kill an infidel is not murder; it is the path to heaven..."Originally posted by Salman:dear billy, get your history right.
The Crusades came in direct response to 300 years of jihads. The middle east and north Africa was Christian lands to begin with before the jihads. The Christians finally struck back after the sultan banned Christians from pilgrimages to Jerusalem. The crusaders were not blind.
Neither were the jihadhists blind. They were rewarded with land, booty and slaves with every successful jihad. Those who were martyred in the process were promised a direct passage to heaven.
Preachings such as these were simply blind faith in religion on both sides to those who listened.
And just so you don't get overboard with your history, the crusades were not started because some sultan BANNED PILGRIMS from visting the holy lands, though there were rumours of ill-treatment of Christian pilgrims by Muslims.
In fact, the first crusade was called by Pope Urban II to wage war against the Turks in response to a plea for help from the then Byzantine emperor Alexius I in defending his empire against the Seljuk Turks , a war which would count as full penance.
What started as a minor call for aid quickly turned into a wholesale migration and conquest of territory outside of Europe, involving everyone from real warriors to homeless peasants who sought 'salvation' and penance for their past sins.
It was simply a calling for some, an opportunity for others. And if you recall the 2nd to 9th crusades, very little (if any) of the stated claims were achieved. -
yes, the Muslims were invading Christian lands for more than 300 years prior to the Crusades, and the first crusade was trigger by the sultan banning Christians from pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Had there been no cusade, Europe would be Muslim today.
-
Originally posted by sinicker:
Can you clarify the above two statements ?
[b His power in natural disaters like the tsunami tragedy.
About the Muslim infidels who are rioting, leave them alone. Let them be. One day, He would punish them. [/b]
1) Are you referring to natural disaster in general or specifically abt the tsunmai in Dec'04 ? And how does Almighty got to do with this particular tragedy ?
2) Besides those Muslim infidels getting punished by Almighty, are you saying one should allow them to continue their lawless act in the living dimension regardless ?
Whatever happened to civilised behaviour before passing-on ? -
Why was Aceh the most hit place for the tsunami? Was Allah angry with his followers?
I remember seeing a photo of a devastated banda acheh where all the buildings were destroyed except a mosque. Was Allah sending a message to his people that they need to repent? -
Because Aceh was torn apart by years of civil war, that's why.
Only a major natural disaster could unite the people and make them put aised their differences. -
For someone who DEMANDS ACCURACY, you seem to have great difficulty reciprocating the same standard. Or perhaps you just have the habit of offering fiction than fact.Originally posted by Salman:yes, the Muslims were invading Christian lands for more than 300 years prior to the Crusades, and the first crusade was trigger by the sultan banning Christians from pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Had there been no cusade, Europe would be Muslim today.In fact, [b]the first crusade was called by Pope Urban II to wage war against the Turks in response to a plea for help from the then Byzantine emperor Alexius I in defending his empire against the Seljuk Turks , a war which would count as full penance. [b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#First_Crusade -
I also came across an article stating that the christians in Aceh had left the town to the mountain to pray. Knowing that the Tsunami hit on christmas eve, before that, Christians in Aceh requested to celebrate Christmas in the town but was rejected by the council, they then told them to go to somewhere far to celebrate. Hence they went up to the mountain and celebrate. The day after Christmas, they came down and saw huge flood.Originally posted by Salman:Why was Aceh the most hit place for the tsunami? Was Allah angry with his followers?
I remember seeing a photo of a devastated banda acheh where all the buildings were destroyed except a mosque. Was Allah sending a message to his people that they need to repent?
Another Tsunami then took place later on last year after the December tsunami, and it was a day before Easter. -
Amazing isn't it? -
Originally posted by Salman:
Amazing isn't it?
....
now let's plug in our brains a bit and think shall we ? ...
do you see any foundations and pillars left standing on the brown flat in the picture ? ... and what does it imply ? ... that they were huts and hovels slapped together with wood perhaps ? ... not a very sturdy structure to withstand a tsunami, don't you think ? ...
a place of worhship on the other hand, would probably be made of concrete and deep pilings, not surprising, since lots of people, however poor they are, would still tithe towards their building ... I don't think the average contractor would dare do a slipshod work on them either ...
fact is, there are plenty of instances of catholic churches and buddhist temples left standing in sri lanka and thailand as well, I suspect for precisely the same reason I described above ... I don't put much stock on superstitious claims of a divine hand in such things, it's barely even a co-incidence to me. It is sad that some people out there will use such happenings to proclaim the superiority of their respective faiths ... a person blinded by dogma, of any religion, can never see anything as it is .... -
if a non-muslim marries a muslim and does not convert, the children from this marriage are, so to speak, born out of wedlock still. this is as good as pre-marital sex. that's why we have a separate entity, the registry of muslim marriages for couples to register their marriage.Originally posted by AMD2004:I am sorry, i beg to differ. Take a look at Malaysia's law. Anyone who marries a muslim, MUST be a muslim. Is this not forcing? if this is not, what would be consider yes? There is basically no freedom in choosing if u love a muslim spouse.
i can give names of prominent muslims here who i THINK(quite unsure) marry non-muslims who do not convert. but i do not wish to disclose them.