Cartoon of Mohammad creates International Row.
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I have had discussions with Muslims and I found that most of them do not study or even read the Quran. Some learn to recite it w/o knowing what it is really all about. They think it is a blessing just to read Quran in Arabic.
Their understanding of Islam comes from books written by others or through the teachings of imams who themselves got their knowledge from others and not through serious study.
The reason for this are :
1. laziness - human nature
2. belief that Quran cannot be properly translated and must be understood best in Arabic.
3. Quran is difficult to read because there is no chronological or logical organisation. I personally find the logic jumpy as the stories jump back and forth over time and settings.
4. believe they need a middle man in the form of teachers to interpret Quran for them because it is very difficult to read.
So instead of studying and learning for themselves, most Muslims simply delegate understanding of their religion to others.
I therefore encourage all Muslims to read and study the quran carefully and ask logical questions. don't depend on others to interpret, interpret, interpret for them. -
I too have muslim acquaintances/colleagues whom I thought were moderates until I hear them actually extolling the vicious acts of the terrorists. It is indeed sad. What percentage of our muslims can be said to be moderates and what percentage can be said to be at least sympathisers/supporters of the terrorists? Has anyone any clue?Originally posted by SilverPal:If only more muslims can think like you... Alas, many muslims in sg, shockingly, do harbour rather "extreme" views and needless to say, seige mentality.
Most muslims i know and speak to actually not just condone but in fact encourage terrorism! They couraged the 9/11 incident and hoped for more of such events to put USA in its place.
They also have this "everyone is discriminating against me because they worship aflse Gods" mentality. When a terrorist kidnaps and beheads a foreigner, when a bomb kills hundreds of non believer, they tell me its good.
Of course these are MY FEW FRIENDS AND DO NOT REPRESENT THE AVERAGE MUSLIM IN SG.
The point I'm trying to bring up is that, I was rather shocked at this as I thought muslims in sg are very very moderate and do no condone senseless killing and bombings. -
the last time i read the Quran was in Primary 5, 1998. i've finished reciting it and, i do not even know what it is all about. seriously, it is a blessing to know the arabic language.
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Are most Muslims here able to read and understand Arabic? If not, how are they going to do that?Originally posted by Salman:I
So instead of studying and learning for themselves, most Muslims simply delegate understanding of their religion to others.
I therefore encourage all Muslims to read and study the quran carefully and ask logical questions. don't depend on others to interpret, interpret, interpret for them. -
Of course most don't know Arabic cos we are not in a Arab speaking environment.
But like I said, they believe that Allah will bless them simply because they read the Quran in Arabic. What kind of blessing I don't know cos they can't tell me also.
Even those who do know Arabic don't know the Quran because it is very difficult to read. I suggest you borrow an English Quran from the library and try reading it, it won't make much sense to you because it does not provide background knowledge for its stories and its presentation has no chronology. -
Salman:
"---English Quran from the library and try reading it, it won't make much sense to you because it does not provide background knowledge for its stories and its presentation has no chronology. ---"
That is why the muslims need the Hadith (to interpret the Quran and vis-a-vis) otherwise it makes no sense at all) and the end results with more problems cropping in than solutions! -
There are so many Malay muslims in Southeast Asia. Has it not occured to any Islamic scholar to translate the Quaran from Arabic to Malay?Originally posted by Salman:Of course most don't know Arabic cos we are not in a Arab speaking environment.
But like I said, they believe that Allah will bless them simply because they read the Quran in Arabic. What kind of blessing I don't know cos they can't tell me also.
Even those who do know Arabic don't know the Quran because it is very difficult to read. I suggest you borrow an English Quran from the library and try reading it, it won't make much sense to you because it does not provide background knowledge for its stories and its presentation has no chronology. -
In that case, Muslims can never claim that the Quran is a complete book because it needs other books to make sense.Originally posted by claudetnt:Salman:
"---English Quran from the library and try reading it, it won't make much sense to you because it does not provide background knowledge for its stories and its presentation has no chronology. ---"
That is why the muslims need the Hadith (to interpret the Quran and vis-a-vis) otherwise it makes no sense at all) and the end results with more problems cropping in than solutions!
However, what you say isn't true for 2 reasons:
1. the hadiths does not explain everything in the Quran.
2. the hadiths ends up contradicting the Quran, so much so that there is a Quran only movement among some muslims. Not only that, many of the acts recorded in the hadiths are objectionable even to muslims and cause even more confusion.
Its a big mess bro. -
Of course there are translations, but like I said, the difficulties are there even for Arabs.Originally posted by geodome:There are so many Malay muslims in Southeast Asia. Has it not occured to any Islamic scholar to translate the Quaran from Arabic to Malay?
Thats why you will see Muslims killing apostates and another Muslim comes along and tell you that there is no compulsion in religion.
Or that a bunch commits terror and another tells you that Islam is a religion of peace.
Or women being forced to wear tudung and another comes and tell you that islam respects women and gives liberty to women.
They get confused even among themselves over what the Quran says. Thats the whole problem! -
Uh........doesnt the Bible has lots of different interpretations too?Originally posted by Salman:Of course there are translations, but like I said, the difficulties are there even for Arabs.
Thats why you will see Muslims killing apostates and another Muslim comes along and tell you that there is no compulsion in religion.
Or that a bunch commits terror and another tells you that Islam is a religion of peace.
Or women being forced to wear tudung and another comes and tell you that islam respects women and gives liberty to women.
They get confused even among themselves over what the Quran says. Thats the whole problem!
And also Buddhism? -
Dunno much about different interpretations in buddhism and christian but they certainly don't go around doing terror in the name of holiness and say its a religion of peace.
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holocast?Originally posted by Salman:Dunno much about different interpretations in buddhism and christian but they certainly don't go around doing terror in the name of holiness and say its a religion of peace. -
Remember 911?Originally posted by hisoka:holocast? -
Was there a mistake in my reply, or was the mistake based on your shallow understanding of information available ? .Originally posted by Salman:
No bullshet.
http://www.iheu.org/node/1540
The Fate of Infidels and Apostates under Islam
International Humanist and Ethical Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
Can we depend on a "no brainer" for making references from questionable sites that are as radical in religious thoughts as the KKK ?
Why do you not make reference to the websites of the Iranian Mullahs and perhaps even Abu Bakar Bashir ?
Can anyone doubt your stupendous intelligence ? [/quote]Originally posted by Salman:
These are all refering to Muslim sources.
Are you saying that Islam is like KKK?
Your cut and pastes are useless. You can't fool the world anymore my friend.
You based your earlier statement based on a post titled "The Fate of Infidels and Apostates Under Islam" and used your brush to indiscriminately paint a disparaging insinuation on Islam and Muslim as a whole.
This material which you referred to was posted on the website of International Humanist and Ethical Union - which claimed itself as
[quote]
an organisation based in Amsterdam boasting itself as the "sole world umbrella organisation embracing humanist, atheist, rationalist, secularist, skeptic, laique, ethical cultural, freethought, and similar organisations world-wide".
Should we be amazed at your "no brainer" approach in depending on the referenced article as an "authoritative interpretation of Islam's attitude towards 'infidels and apostates' ? .
We truly admire your "no brainer" brilliance .
Why do you not try the website of KKK to get a "truly authorised" information on Islam ?
Oink, oink - -
Originally posted by Salman:
So the 'no brainer' can go beyond 'one liner' - is it any surprise if it still remains 'no brainer' in content as much as in its extreme bigotry ? .
I have had discussions with Muslims and I found that most of them do not study or even read the Quran. Some learn to recite it w/o knowing what it is really all about. They think it is a blessing just to read Quran in Arabic.
One's conclusion will largely depend on where, who, when and how the information is got, processed, and concluded - and by your 'no brainer' standard it has clearly shown your bigotry formed out of ignorance. .
Which religion does not depend on books written by others or through the teachings of someone who is the peer to the community of interested followers ?
Their understanding of Islam comes from books written by others or through the teachings of imams who themselves got their knowledge from others and not through serious study.
The reason for this are :
1. laziness - human nature
2. belief that Quran cannot be properly translated and must be understood best in Arabic.
3. Quran is difficult to read because there is no chronological or logical organisation. I personally find the logic jumpy as the stories jump back and forth over time and settings.
4. believe they need a middle man in the form of teachers to interpret Quran for them because it is very difficult to read.
Nearly every religion will have their intellectuals, researchers, scribes, and historians contributing to a library of records and scriptures.
How wide was your contacts and research before you make such a daring public statement in this forum that shows your complete ignorance and bigotry towards a specific religion ?
How could you generalise all Muslims in the manner that you have stated above ?
There are respectable universities from which the Religious Leaders comes from, and Islam is no less as progressive as other religions in the number of universities offering a comprehensive syllabi of Islamic topics :
Islamic Online University
Hartford Seminary
International Islamic University Malaysia
University of Connecticut
American University in Beirut, Lebanon
University of Colorado at Boulder
and the lists will continue for another hour or more.
Are you qualified to give this unsolicited advise to Muslims ? .
So instead of studying and learning for themselves, most Muslims simply delegate understanding of their religion to others.
I therefore encourage all Muslims to read and study the quran carefully and ask logical questions. don't depend on others to interpret, interpret, interpret for them.
The most appropriate person to benefit from this advise will be yourself. .
Perhaps we should "interpret, interpret, interpret" for you as in your very constant and prominent display of a "no brainer" capacity, we doubt if you can even be logical in thought process - let alone knowing what to even ask . -
Originally posted by Salman:
Do Buddhists understand the chants of the monks ?
Of course most don't know Arabic cos we are not in a Arab speaking environment.
But like I said, they believe that Allah will bless them simply because they read the Quran in Arabic. What kind of blessing I don't know cos they can't tell me also.
Even those who do know Arabic don't know the Quran because it is very difficult to read. I suggest you borrow an English Quran from the library and try reading it, it won't make much sense to you because it does not provide background knowledge for its stories and its presentation has no chronology.
Do Catholics understand the incantations of the Priests ?
Do the respective faithfuls - who follow the various religions of Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity, Shinshukyo, Taoism - truly understand the chantings, incantations, practises, concerpt, theology, philosophy, and principles of their respective religions ?
Faith is one's personal religious commitment between oneself and the Being in his own conscience - is it for anyone to question, let alone from someone with a "no brainer" capacity ? .
With your "no brainer" capacity are you capable to even make out 'one end from the other end' ? .
In your attempt to seek information on this respectable religion, are you seeking from the right source ? .
Have you considered the proverb - "birds of a feather, flocks together" - "interpret, interpret, interpret" - as in a gathering of "no brainers" ? . -
Originally posted by Salman:
Dunno much about different interpretations in buddhism and christian but they certainly don't go around doing terror in the name of holiness and say its a religion of peace.Originally posted by Salman:
Finally, all the "no brainer" bigotry displayed is a result of your narrow view of the weakness and failures of a group of dissenting individuals - who simply justify their own human actions with their own distorted understanding of a respectable religion. .
Remember 911?
With a bigot's view controlled by a "no brainer" attitude - you paint a broad stroke to tarnish a respectable religion and all its followers. .
Pathetic display of your character - which can only be attributed to a defect in your DNA . . -
When confronted with reality or rebuttals you have no answer to, you scream 'no brainer'! Thats all you can do cos you are floored.
As for Buddhists, Christians Hindus etc, these are peaceful religions where they don't go around committing terror in the name of religion. When I talk to them, they have a good grasp of the teachings of their scriptures, especially Christians.
I do know that Christians spend a lot of time regularly studying from their Bible and make it a point to question the teachings. The same cannot be said of Muslims as my Muslim friends tell me that they are not allowed to question the teachings of Islam no matter how illogical.
Do the other religions fully understand chants and all? Nope, but they are not prone to religious terror like Muslims are. Thats why I recommend that Muslims work hard to take their religion seriously and study what bit really teaches. Whats wrong with encouraging you to know the quran better? Don't you want to know more about the Quran? -
Read the Rumiyaat by Omar Khayyam.
The era of the Sufis were the most tolerant in the history of Islamic ruled states throughout the Avicenne period.
It's a battle of the sects I feel..today, Salafism and Wahhabism is on the ascendant.. -
Terrorism is certainly on the rise.
But the good thing, most Muslims did not heed Osama's call for jihad even though they may sympathise with it like Atobe. -
Salman:
"In that case, Muslims can never claim that the Quran is a complete book because it needs other books to make sense.
However, what you say isn't true for 2 reasons:
1. the hadiths does not explain everything in the Quran.
2. the hadiths ends up contradicting the Quran, so much so that there is a Quran only movement among some muslims. Not only that, many of the acts recorded in the hadiths are objectionable even to muslims and cause even more confusion.
Its a big mess bro. "
Quran only movement has been an ongoing since who knows when without gaining any popularity simply because all muslims must accept both the Quran and the Hadith. They do not have the luxury to choose to accept one and not the other, its a package. To be a muslim one must accept both the Quran and the Hadith according to all their religious leaders. -
I asked a muslim teacher and she said the Quran did not say all this....Originally posted by Agenda:Oh, So the Quran says that all Religion are real and that the respective Christianity, Buddhism are like sub-factions? And Jesus, Confucius, Buddha are under Allah? -
Are all the three sects you mentioned descended from the Sunni branch of ISlam?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Read the Rumiyaat by Omar Khayyam.
The era of the Sufis were the most tolerant in the history of Islamic ruled states throughout the Avicenne period.
It's a battle of the sects I feel..today, Salafism and Wahhabism is on the ascendant.. -
How much can we expect the ability of a "no brainer" to discern facts from delusions ? .Originally posted by Salman:When confronted with reality or rebuttals you have no answer to, you scream 'no brainer'! Thats all you can do cos you are floored.
If you cannot understand the responses given in my replies to your baseless statements made in this 'thread', surely one can confidently conclude with some certainty your 'no brainer' status is not wrong ? .
'Scream "no brainer" '
Hardly, merely a repetition of the term on the many 'no brainer' statements that reflects ignorance of an empty vessel spouting bigotry. .As for Buddhists, Christians Hindus etc, these are peaceful religions where they don't go around committing terror in the name of religion. When I talk to them, they have a good grasp of the teachings of their scriptures, especially Christians.
Are you certain that terrorist only exist amongst the followers of the Islamic faith ? .
How will you explain the terror bombings in UK by the Catholic IRA ?
What about the terror spread by the largely White Christian dominated KKK in Southern USA ?
What about the terror campaign of the largely Christian Serbs towards the Muslim Bosnians and even towards Christian Croatians ?
The terror bombings and viciously violent attacks on Indian Muslims by a largely Hindu populated India during the days before 'partition' and occassionally during recent times ?
What about the Tibetan violent struggles against the forced take over of Tibet by China, or the Nepalese Maoist bombings and murders of Nepalese Citizens when their fight is against the Nepalese government ?
Are these religions not espousing tolerance, patience, peaceful co-existence, forgiveness, non-violence ? .
What makes you think that only the Human Christian have "the brain to ask"; while a Muslim Human have "no brain to ask questions of their faith" ? .
I do know that Christians spend a lot of time regularly studying from their Bible and make it a point to question the teachings. The same cannot be said of Muslims as my Muslim friends tell me that they are not allowed to question the teachings of Islam no matter how illogical.
On what basis do you form this opinion ? .
How wide a circle are your Muslim friends, are they an authority on the Islamic faith ? .
If you dare to post your public statements of bigotry based on your a shallow understanding of Islam derived from simple conversation with only a few Muslim friends, we can only conclude with a degree of certainty your status as a "no brainer".Do the other religions fully understand chants and all? Nope, but they are not prone to religious terror like Muslims are. Thats why I recommend that Muslims work hard to take their religion seriously and study what bit really teaches. Whats wrong with encouraging you to know the quran better? Don't you want to know more about the Quran?
Faithful followers not prone to religious terror ?
Look at the breakup of Yugoslavia in which the Orthodox Serbs terrorised the Croats, Bosnian, and the Albanians - which is a very recent event in the history of our lives.
Christian Terrorism exist since the Middle Ages until this day in its many different organisations as the more ingenious Human Minds can create, which cannot be said of your limited capacity to even fathom such events.
Even the quiet Sikhism religion had seen its own violent faithful splintered from the mainstream, to form the Babbar Khalsa and caused violent assassination and public terror in its bombing campaign.
The supposedly blessed God's chosen religion of Judaism has also seen its own dissenting followers splintering to form terror groups in their fight to protect and claim their political rights to exist as a State of Israel.
Jewish terrorist organisations such as the Jewish Defense League, Kach and Kahane Chai; and the banned Jewish Terrorist Group such as - Gush Emunim Underground (also know as the Jewish Terror Organisation), Terror Against Terror (TNT), and Defending Shield (Egrof Magen).
Terrorists exist in any religions where impatient followers believe in taking pro-active actions instead of following the concept of peace, patience, tolerance, respect in any human endeavours. .
Recent events have the terrorists from the Islamic faith hogging the limelight, and by your postings, with your "no brainer" capacity you have painted a broad stroke of bigotry prejudice on the followers of one of the most respectable religion on this globe.
Your statement has accused MILLIONS of Muslim faithful to be in a position of having the inability to think for themselves, to ask probing questions of their Faith. .
Can we believe that even the best brain in the many Islamic universities on this globe are of the same quality as that of your "no brainer" status ? -
Originally posted by Salman:
Yes, terrorism is certainly on the rise - as there are many 'no brainers' who are deluded in the glory of their own 'self-worth' over others. .
Terrorism is certainly on the rise.
Are you not contradicting yourself here ? .
But the good thing, most Muslims did not heed Osama's call for jihad even though they may sympathise with it like Atobe.
Did you mention in your earlier reply that most Muslims do not ask about their faith, and simply follow the interpretation of others ? .
How do you discern the fact that most Muslims did not heed the interpretation of Osama's call for jihad ? .
Can we depend on your 'no brainer' capacity to believe in your statement that 'Atobe sympathise with Osama's call to jihad' ? .
Let us not make the irony of this pathetic joke any worst on yourself. .
Is it not typical of the style of the Ruling Political Party that you have followed - that when faced with a more formidable and credible adversary, the only way to demolish the other party is by way of a disparage linkage in the most unlikely manner
If want to be a 'no brainer' PAPpy that "wag the tail and bring in the papers" - you have a long way more to go before being accepted by the POWER OF ONE. .