disturbing tale of abu gharib torture: revealed in pics
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It failed? Seemed so many bombing took place until more Iraqi died everyday.Originally posted by Salman:The presence of terrorists and their threats failed to deter three rounds of democratic elections too.
Are you so intimidated by terrorists and what they do? The Iraqis aren't.
Intimidated is the right answer. I wonder for what reason the coaliation
troop invaded the country, wasted so many resources. The result is almost nil only Saddam on trial but it has not achievev any significant result. The elected governmnet has not proved to be effective. Maybe u look like to read the lastest figure on the casulaty of US troop. PResident Bush's rating has fallen significantly. -
The war was stupid, it was wrong.Originally posted by will4:It failed? Seemed so many bombing took place until more Iraqi died everyday.
Intimidated is the right answer. I wonder for what reason the coaliation
troop invaded the country, wasted so many resources. The result is almost nil only Saddam on trial but it has not achievev any significant result. The elected governmnet has not proved to be effective. Maybe u look like to read the lastest figure on the casulaty of US troop. PResident Bush's rating has fallen significantly.
But does that condones terrorism? Does that allow people who profess to be from a peace loving and tolerant religion to kidnap and behead Japanese, Turkish and other CIVILLIANS??? -
Cicero: Inter Arma Enim Silent LegesOriginally posted by SilverPal:The war was stupid, it was wrong.
But does that condones terrorism? Does that allow people who profess to be from a peace loving and tolerant religion to kidnap and behead Japanese, Turkish and other CIVILLIANS???
(In times of war, the law falls silent.)
As you pointed out, the decision to go to war stood on questionable legal grounds in the first place. How will a conquered people continue to battle against a vastly superior enemy? By choosing soft targets that hurt and grab media attention. Don't forget it was the media and the images of body bags that lost US the Vietnam War. -
I'm sorry if it seems like i'm hijacking this thread:
but I wonder why incidents like abu gharib evokes so much passion and talk ...
while something much closer to home goes almost un-noticed ?
Malaysia's "Abu Gharib" ...
some people practise "Selective Idealism" perhaps ? ...
to me, some people hate the US for doing all these things, but of course, this hatred goes a lot deeper than that, some stem from religion, we all are aware of that, it's somewhat amusing, if it wasn't so tragic, that in so many parts of the world today, from algeria to venezuala, any wrong in their society today gets blamed on the US, ironic, if you think of how other other countries would be crying out for US help whenever disaster strikes ... some stems from the jealousy and envy of the US, for like it or not, no one in the world today comes close to besting the military or economic might of the US today. that's why even supposed allies like germany and france are quite happy to trip up Uncle Sam's plans at every chance ....
the above is a non-normative, and cynical take of what I see in the world today, and now for my personal opinion: I'm quite happy and content to see a uni-polar world dominated by the US, for "the good in the US will correct the bad" ... let's put it this way, supposed these abuses were committed by some other country, do you think they would ever see the light of the day ? ... one good example would be Russia's conquest of Afghanistan, that took place barely 20 years before the Americans went into the place ... lots of people literally disappeared during that period, ditto chechenya .... remember that all these abuses were not uncovered by some foreign intelligence services, but got blown to the New York Times by serving members of the US military .... that is the key thing, as much as the US tries to practise realpolitik, she'll have citizens concerned enough, and willing to stand up, to do the right thing, because her citizens enjoys "freedom", and are willing to embrace it (freedom ... with all that it implies) ...
of course, this is not a popular opinion in the world today, I do not have the illusion though, that the US is a perfect country ... she's far from it of course, ... but i would rather that the biggest, meanest, bully in the neighbourhood is Uncle Sam than a lot of other countries I know ... if the roots of your dislike and hatred are religious in nature, then kindly ask yourself if you've been brainwashed by dogma, and try to step back and take a look again ... if not, do the same ... decide if what i've said about the good correcting the bad of the US is true. -
What you said makes a lot of sense and sounds logical.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Cicero: Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
(In times of war, the law falls silent.)
As you pointed out, the decision to go to war stood on questionable legal grounds in the first place. How will a conquered people continue to battle against a vastly superior enemy? By choosing soft targets that hurt and grab media attention. Don't forget it was the media and the images of body bags that lost US the Vietnam War.
Even if I had to kill civillians to grab media attention, I'd try to make my victims relevant. If americans invaded my country, I'd kill americans and destroy american embassies. But killing priests and hindus?
When the danish newspaper published offensive pictures, I'd kill danes, not americans, jews and priests!!!
Let me rephrase my question:
When americans invade a country, does it condone kidnapping japanese, nepalese, turkish and spanish civillians?
When the danes insult the prophet, does it condone destroying american embassies, killing catholic priests and killing chinese? -
They indirect victim of the invation cause as long they place troops or send worker to help the Iraqi government, they deemd to be part of US allies.Originally posted by SilverPal:What you said makes a lot of sense and sounds logical.
Even if I had to kill civillians to grab media attention, I'd try to make my victims relevant. If americans invaded my country, I'd kill americans and destroy american embassies. But killing priests and hindus?
When the danish newspaper published offensive pictures, I'd kill danes, not americans, jews and priests!!!
Let me rephrase my question:
When americans invade a country, does it condone kidnapping japanese, nepalese, turkish and spanish civillians?
When the danes insult the prophet, does it condone destroying american embassies, killing catholic priests and killing chinese? -
When the danes insult the prophet, does it condone destroying american embassies, killing catholic priests and killing chinese?Originally posted by will4:They indirect victim of the invation cause as long they place troops or send worker to help the Iraqi government, they deemd to be part of US allies. -
I think the fanatic is already not happy with America for a long time but the cartoon controversy had given them an opportunity to lash out atOriginally posted by SilverPal:When the danes insult the prophet, does it condone destroying american embassies, killing catholic priests and killing chinese?
America. -
What about chinese in indonesia and catholic priests?Originally posted by will4:I think the fanatic is already not happy with America for a long time but the cartoon controversy had given them an opportunity to lash out at
America. -
Chinese Indonesian had long been a target of racial violence due to their comtrol of the local economy. They generally richer n had more money.Originally posted by SilverPal:What about chinese in indonesia and catholic priests?
This made them a target of the local jealous population. Majority of them also Christian. This made them another factor to look at. -
OK, so they target Chinese because Chinese are better off. Its has nothing to do with religion then.
But why did they shout Allah akbar before they raped those Chinese girls?
And the islamic leaders, they didn't condemn nor hold protests over such barbaric behaviors did they. They didn't breathe a word about it. Why? -
Where you there too?Originally posted by Salman:But why did they shout Allah akbar before they raped those Chinese girls? -
You are really insensitive aren't you? He's been traumatised enough already...Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Where you there too?
Back to topic. One justification put forth for the release of these photos is the the US has not done enough to punish the perpetrators. I agree. Thus far, only a couple of grunts have been punished. The Lt Col in charge? That incompetent women received no jail time. Neither have anyother persons above the rank of sgt.
I find it really difficult to believe that all this has gone on without any officers knowing about it. Any half-witted semi-sentient being would think "Hmmm...there is something fishy going on here...I best check it out." But NO. The US (rightly) decided to prosecute the people who were caught in the act, but (wrongly) decided not to go up the CoC. Absolutely disgraceful.
I guess in the US Army, command responsiblity is indeed a dirty word. -
The real question is, did you read the papers?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Where you there too?
I know people who were there and the allah akbar shouting was widely reported in the media at that time and never disputed by anyone. Are you gonna deny the rapes as well?
So why do you think these people shoyuted that before they raped? Why were the leaders quiet about the rapes? -
If they did not shout those words, does it make the rape ok?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Where you there too? -
Sounds like another country I know...Originally posted by lwflee:Back to topic. One justification put forth for the release of these photos is the the US has not done enough to punish the perpetrators. I agree. Thus far, only a couple of grunts have been punished. The Lt Col in charge? That incompetent women received no jail time. Neither have anyother persons above the rank of sgt.
I find it really difficult to believe that all this has gone on without any officers knowing about it. Any half-witted semi-sentient being would think "Hmmm...there is something fishy going on here...I best check it out." But NO. The US (rightly) decided to prosecute the people who were caught in the act, but (wrongly) decided not to go up the CoC. Absolutely disgraceful.
I guess in the US Army, command responsiblity is indeed a dirty word.
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Chinese Indons have been a target of racial violence, that is true. I know most of them are christians. I have many indonesian friends. It just appalls me to hear the justifications the malay indonesians have for raping chinese girls!Originally posted by will4:Chinese Indonesian had long been a target of racial violence due to their comtrol of the local economy. They generally richer n had more money.
This made them a target of the local jealous population. Majority of them also Christian. This made them another factor to look at.
Frankly, the chinese in indo is not interested in religious statements nor are they interested in racial recognition. They just want to be treated normally (not get raped and targeted for violence) and earn their money.
What kind of justifications do the indon muslims have for targetting indon chinese because of theri anger against the danish and europeans? -
silverpal...u must understand...the amount of women these indos rape is nothing compared to the amount of their women who willingly come to our country and become hookers...Originally posted by SilverPal:Chinese Indons have been a target of racial violence, that is true. I know most of them are christians. I have many indonesian friends. It just appalls me to hear the justifications the malay indonesians have for raping chinese girls!
Frankly, the chinese in indo is not interested in religious statements nor are they interested in racial recognition. They just want to be treated normally (not get raped and targeted for violence) and earn their money.
What kind of justifications do the indon muslims have for targetting indon chinese because of theri anger against the danish and europeans?
they have their fustrations...
they are so poor...backward...they are like animals...we can't reason with them...we'd just avoid them.
their women come to singapore and batam and wat have you...its like give people free also no one wants... -
Gosh, I can almost imagine proton and atobe flaming you for this post!Originally posted by Thailand_Hero:silverpal...u must understand...the amount of women these indos rape is nothing compared to the amount of their women who willingly come to our country and become hookers...
they have their fustrations...
they are so poor...backward...they are like animals...we can't reason with them...we'd just avoid them.
their women come to singapore and batam and wat have you...its like give people free also no one wants...
Well, most of them may be poor, but there are many rich muslims too! Malaysia has many middle class muslims, middle east have many oil rich muslims. Osama himself is a rich man.
Your words remind me of a phrase I read in a book: There are two ways of dealing with people, by means of law and by means of force. The first belongs properly to man, the second to animals. But since the first is often insufficient, it is necessary to resort to the second. -
I know. I was thinking the same myself. Guess what, this other organisation is increasingly learning from the US army.Originally posted by SilverPal:Sounds like another country I know...
A big mistake I say coz US soldiers not exactly known for being well trained. -
It doesn't but it rebutts the suggestion that it is religiously motivated, as opposed to being motivated by plain lust.Originally posted by SilverPal:If they did not shout those words, does it make the rape ok? -
I accept that there is ambiguity there. What about the priest that was killed? Investigators and newspapers established that the murder was based on religion.Originally posted by lwflee:It doesn't but it rebutts the suggestion that it is religiously motivated, as opposed to being motivated by plain lust. -
Its ok...those extremist can kill all they want...
for ever innocent life that is lost to these low lifes...
american soldiers are raping and killing 10 of these low lifes somewhere in the world. for every 1 victim of terrorism, 50-100 of these low lifes somewhere in the world is getting exterminated.
From getting their heads bashed in on australian beaches, to getting mowed down by the thousands in warfare in iraq, to their women leaving grahib pregant with american babies...
I just love reading the headlines about insurgents getting killed, insurgents in thailand getting cramped into a lorry and crushing each other to death, insurgents getting raped, insurgents getting gunned down in their failed suicide attempt.
if they want to be poking their noses into others business around the world then they must also expect things to be poked into their noses. -
Very often, terrorists get killed by fellow terrorists too.
Look at the tit for tat attacks on mosques in Iraq. Those terrorists believe in bombing mosques on Fridays while innocent people are praying. That the worst insult to a religion. -
wah...happening siaOriginally posted by Salman:Very often, terrorists get killed by fellow terrorists too.
Look at the tit for tat attacks on mosques in Iraq. Those terrorists believe in bombing mosques on Fridays while innocent people are praying. That the worst insult to a religion.