Freedom of expression in Europe?
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What? I cannot discuss issues the way I see it?Originally posted by CenturionMBT:i will advice you to tone down your postings about our muslim counterparts. Why make those in the forums angry when everything is so calm right now? Are you seeking for trouble? I hope this is the last time i hear anything regarding the muslim issue from you.
Can you please draw a clear line of what is allowed and not allowed on this forum? Don't be vague. -
it is already nice enough of me to allow you guys to discuss about the danish issues. Oringinally, no issues regarding the religions should be discussed. But with all the postings that generalise all muslims as extremist, i.e. Islam is a cruel religion, it not only painted this forums in a very bad light, it also made many of the muslim forum members very unhappy.
Hence from here on, we have decided to allow such discussion to continue peacefully. But whoever who makes such unwarrented remarks again, we will send their names to the admin to be axed. -
And please for those who still advocate their own brand of freedom of speech, I will kindly invite them to take their discussion somewhere else, or I'll force them to. Religions and race , this are the two topics that are a taboo around here. Especially in such a society as ours. A small spark could cause an inferno. And i don't want to see it here.
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I for one did not generalise all Muslims as terrorists. You can check all my posts for yourself.
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But you are implying that Islam is violent. And i have alot of people who are backing me on this. I'm only acting based on the complaints I have. So its your choice.Originally posted by Salman:I for one did not generalise all Muslims as terrorists. You can check all my posts for yourself. -
Like I said, I never said all muslims are violent.
The people who make islam violent isn't me but the terrorists who insist on linking islam with violence. We can't deny reality for what it is can we?
On the other hand, you have people like Atobe defending and justifying all this terrorism, such dishonesty made the other forumners angry. Notice that he has toned down his anti semitism and anti west hatred after we confronted him with reality, natural morality and logic.
Its your choice. -
Fine...I'll close one eye over this for the moment. But should this anything go wrong, heads will roll.
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Salman, do you consider yourself a neo-con?
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Originally posted by CenturionMBT:
WAHAHAHA! Lol. Very dark humour...
Fine...I'll close one eye over this for the moment. But should this anything go wrong, heads will roll -
Wats a neo con?Originally posted by Quincey:Salman, do you consider yourself a neo-con? -
This is a forum where ideas and arguments are freely exchanged. It is also a place where we can call things as we see it.
If a terrorist hijacked a plane, we say a terrorist hijacked the plane. We do not claim that certain "propaganda engineers" are in "aggressive negotiations regarding alternative landing methods" for the plane.
If the terrorist claims to do it in the name of a certain religion, we say the name of that religion in our discussions. We do not say "various religious beliefs".
If rioters destroy embassies in the name of a certain religion, we call it as we see it, we do not call them "concerned individuals".
Of course I believe that Atobe and salman got too heated up during the discussion. Proton on the other hand, refused to discuss the topics at hand, choosing instead to indulge in name calling and insults.
Perhaps the mods' attention should be focused on such bigoted and anti social behaviours. -
RESPECT is the word....
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We must encourage the debate on Islam. Is Islam a religion or a political movement in the guise of religion? What is the ultimate goal of Islam? These questions should not be swept under the carpet. They must be discussed in open debates and find answers.
No problem can be solved unless it is thoroughly understood.
Questions must be asked. If Muslims have satisfactory answers to these questions, there is no reason for them to be upset. They should come forth and dissipate all misunderstandings. But if they decide to resort to hooliganism and throw tantrums to avoid answering, it is clear that they do not want you to know the answer to these questions. "Oh, you are hurting my sensitivity" is not a satisfactory answer. It is strawman and a logical fallacy.
Only truth will set us free. This is a major problem we are facing today, perhaps the biggest humanity has ever faced and we must know the truth. You can't solve any problem blindly, let alone one as complex and critical as the one we are facing. -
Salman's rhetoric is perilously close to incitement of religious hatred. Be careful of the words you use...to ensure continued religious harmony in Singapore, we should not allow people to sow the seeds of hatred and discontent in the guise of a political discussion.
Freedom of expression must have limits. If an opinion is offensive to a religion or race, it must be banned in multi-cultural Singapore. I don't care as much about being a more open society as I do about a peaceful one. -
Read carefully. I don't encourage hatred, I encourage dialogue and understanding. W/o dialogue and debate, there will be no understanding.
Don't shut down dialogue and debate.
By sweeping things under the carpet and avoiding debate, it is causing real problems like what is happening in Europe. -
Originally posted by Salman:
PROVE.
ban the offensive remarks made by fanatical Muslims in mosques first, they are the most prolific abusers.
if you fail to do that, this is evidence to indict you. bye bye salman -
Originally posted by SilverPal:
that's great! so anybody can teach in public how to make bombs, detonate them, etc IN USA, then leave USA and once outside USA can not even be sued. wow, freedom of speech the way you present it must be wonderful in some wacko kinda way.
Freedom of speech is a wonderful theory, I like the thought of it too! But when applied to the real world, irresponsible people who are unable to comprehend the spirit of the law have to be taken by the letter of the law.
There is freedom of speech in USA, but are they allowed to shout "FIRE" in a crowded building? If they are not allowed to do so, is there still freedom of speech?
Freedom of speech laws usually say something about, "you can say anything you like, but others can still take you to court and sue you". Others being the state or individuals.
btw note that public speaker didn't incite anybody to kill or do violent acts, he just exercised his right to freedom of speech. and by the time he has left USA, he can not be tried under the laws of the USA in any way.
correct?
May I ask which european muslims chose to kill the danish cartoonists or jyllands-posten editor?
Posting caricatures of the prophet, muslim leaders and clerics all over europe can sue the newspaper for their seditious and irresponsible action.
Did the muslim leaders choose to do so? NO! They chose to kill those they didn't like. They even murdered those who had nothing to do with this incident. Catholic priests, americans, in indonesia even chinese get attacked! Why, just because they are not muslims!
exactly correct. how do you justify these killings? these disgraceful caricatures? etc etc? are they acceptable? what did the muslims do to warrant another day of bloodbath in iraq? just wondering. when will this vicious cycle end?
How do you justify these killings? Are they acceptable? What did the catholics do to warrant another priest's life? What did the americans do this time?
btw when was the LAST terrorist attack on nonmuslims? when was the LAST time a muslim got killed by christians? keep your answers ready since YOU are too eager to indulge in religious bloodbath.
too bad world has people like you. -
hmmm....such as? stormfront comes to mind u wanna noe wat that is? wat its leaders call for?Originally posted by SilverPal:Let's not waste time debating on remarks made "in" mosques. There is enough evidence of muslim leaders calling for the death of "infidels" and christians in the public domain. What next? hypocrites!
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precisely! same question aussies asked singapore, what makes it okay to kill nguyen or anybody else? does carrying drugs make it okay to kill him? i ask silverpal, what makes it okay to kill?Originally posted by SilverPal:Does unfair western practices and lack of freedom of expression make it ok to kill priests and christians? Does that make it ok to destroy american embassies? Does it allow the indonesian muslims to kill chinese?
I'm not directing this post at Libertarian but at proton. I'd like him to tell me what makes it ok to kill.
why you so clever see the other way when it comes to you or the side you support, but not when it comes to other side? -
Originally posted by SilverPal:
hypocrisy!!!!!!
The blasphemy laws in England protects the church of England. That is to be expected.
so if saudi arabia supposedly bans crosses this not to be expected and to be criticized, but if LAW in england protects church ONLY this is to be expected! bah silverpal, gr8 logic.
thank god lawmakers in singapore not as dumb like you, ELSE they'll say if men rape women this is expected so this act is decriminalized. if women rape men, this can not be expected and is criminalized. hence, we'll see a sharp decline in rape crimes. wow, silverpal you got some amazing stuff inside your head.
syria court? i beg to differ. there is singaporean court no Syrian court in singapore. i hope you learn to get your facts right.
Likewise in islamic countries, stringent religious laws protect islamic rules and regulations too. Even in singapore, there is a syria court to cater to these islamic laws. You do not see hindu courts, buddist courts or catholic courts do you?
like who? who went ahead with terrorism instead? did you really learn their backgrounds? or did you just assume that they are all terrorists and went ahead with labelling them and any of their acts terrorism instead, despite the consequences or causes of their actions?
Did the relevant high profile clerics really try to take the danish newspaper to court? Did they REALLY try to sue the relevant parties? Or did they assume that it won't work and went ahead with terrorism instead?
now YOU are mixing things up further. caucasians? like muslims can't be caucasians or nonmuslims can't be caucasians? you are just thoroughly confused.
You are right that these acts of terror has drawn the world's attention to these muslims, for all the wrong reasons. Now more than ever, many non muslims and caucasians are going to errorenously assume that all muslims are terrorists (WHICH IS NOT TRUE). Many govts are going to take more stringent steps to control muslims in their countries which might add to the feeling of oppression by the immigrant muslims.
or maybe you think nonmuslims are all caucasians or all caucasians are nonmuslims?
then you add another issue of migrants. where are you heading to?
yeah once again mixing things up. you just expressed your opinion as if it was some fact, without any proof or backing.
Perhaps, like the migrant chinese all over the world, the muslims should try to mix with the indigneous citizens of their host country and try to live more in a global village rather than continue to slam the door in the faces of the "infidels" and wonder why doesn't anyone else understand them. -
proof? statements like "they have been...." without any proof lacks substance. back your statements up with proofsOriginally posted by SilverPal:I forgot to add...
If the muslims are so concerned about freedom of speech against their religion, perhaps they have to start looking at their own "freedom of speech" against other religions.
They have been speaking badly of jews and christians for many generations. Are there laws to protect those jews and christians in islamic countries? -
precisely. you shouldn't expect others outside europe act according to european laws. just like most of us are not european or even australian, we can't be held in contempt for hanging of nguyen, because australians may not like it. their laws don't apply.Originally posted by lwflee:The law of blasphemy is an ancient law that is AFAIK not enforced. It is a christian country after all what do you expect? But the fact that it is not enforced shows us something. Western society has evolved to accept freedom of speech as being fundamental.
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so you can expect saudi arabia to ban crosses? it is a muslim country what do you expect? but there are nonmuslims living and working in saudi arabia. this fact shows us something. saudi arabian society has evolved to accept nonmuslims living in muslim country "as being fundamental"
your liking OR disliking unfortunately didn't affect the state of this law in any way AFAIK.
I for one would like to see the law repealed, but I recognise the wisdom if leaving it as it is. Why cause trouble for yourself when there is not need to?
now this IS hypocrisy at its apex. this CAN be explained? where is the FREEDOM of SPEECH? the freedom that masses in the west have been clamouring for? where is it? why speaking your mind about some idiotic historical stuff that most of us never saw, caused or experienced will lend us jailtime?
About the crime of denying the holocaust, it can be explained simply as the west putting the sanctity if human life above religion.
explain this idiocy in further details. it's fun.
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As well, Some here seem to have missed the point of the argument. Nobody is saying that you cannot have laws banning the depiction of Mohhamad (PBUH). What is said is that you should not expect the rest of the world to bow before your laws.
similarly "stupid" (exercising freedom) european concepts of supposed "freedom" doesn't extend elsewhere, "freedom" of the sort that restricts itself to traversing "holocaust" and other historical incidents, yet doesn't respect billions of people's customs, beliefs, lifestyles. -
all these other avenues are actively being explored by all parties concerned, muslims or nonmuslims, at national as well as international levels. UN, OIC etc are just examples of certain such parties involved.Originally posted by SilverPal:I stand corrected.
But it IS possible to put diplomatic and religious pressure on the offending parties rather than making them pay with human lives. There is always a way other than violence. The muslim world is very big and rich. -
I dont think most muslims have seen Da Vinci code or heard of it! but do you suggest muslims should strongly protest these Da Vinci code "insinuations".Originally posted by SilverPal:Jesus have been portrayed as a dog and as a gay. I have heard european jokes about this.
Also, the Da Vinci code insinuates that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, a woman that the Bible claims to be a prostitute. It said that she is the holy grail and that he "drinks out of her". Think for a while what this suggests.
How come the muslims have not called for extermination or to kill these evil people since they mocked their prophet? They seemed to keep quiet about all these. -
hmm.... so you're now badmouthing the Quran also? no end in sight to your slandering ways esp. against Islam and Muslims?Originally posted by Salman:They do read but even the Arabs cannot understand it cos the Quran is written w/o chronology and is jumpy in its presentation.