Would you fight for Singapore if........
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If ask most Singaporeans, i dont think anyone thinks that a war will break out.Originally posted by siaokao:Wat kinda signs you looking for leh?? 155mm flying over your head? You should start planning now.. you can bet there will be 6~7 mil here soon.. quick.. pack up!
The real test should be when most Singaporeans think there will be a war and how many actually stay.
Somehow i think you chose your name for some significance, please dont be Siaokao and chase me hor -
What if one day may be the government becomes corrupted and Singapore being ruled by tyrant or dictator. And maybe another country like US claimed that they attacking Singapore is to liberate us. Will you still fight blindly for government or help the liberators?Originally posted by leo-kun:i WILL defend our LION CITY. -
You can trust this siaokao and I'm telling you when most ppl know war is coming.. it will be too late, coz all these "pre war" signs happen away from public knowledge. By then, you wan to run like siaokao also cannot make it liao.. wahahaa!! So, the time is NOW.. get out before you have to beg US to protect your sorry ASS..Originally posted by Calvin86:If ask most Singaporeans, i dont think anyone thinks that a war will break out.
The real test should be when most Singaporeans think there will be a war and how many actually stay.
Somehow i think you choose your name for some significance, please dont be Siaokao and chase me hor
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first country that comes to my mind is Israel ... it still has a large population of palestinians, yes, palestinians, that comes over the border every day, just like we do ... (why do you think it's so difficult to stamp out terrorists and suicide bombers ?) .. and if you think 2 years is tough, try Israel, 3 full years of NS ....Originally posted by Calvin86:The question is why should the local citizens sacrifice 2 years while foreigners do not have to?
If you look around countries that require national service do not have a large foreign work force, so the issue of unfairness does not arise.
Coutries like US which has a large foreign workforce, compensates its local citizens for addtional duties imposed on them.
Can you name a country that impose national service on its citizens, has a large foreign workforce and does not accord its citizens addtional benefits?
Morever Singapore has a short history and its roots are weak. We are a merchant city, and like traders, we move to the place that has most benefits.
many European countries, e.g. Germany, still impose National service, and they also have a large population of guest workers from last time (turkish, middle eastern guest workers)
it is, like i said, the privilege and burden of defending a country falls onto that country's and that country's citizens alone, you can't expect anyone else to fight for you, I hate repeating myself, so read my previous post again ...
if the task of defending what yourself and your loved ones and assets is just a job to you, like you implied, since you're weighting off the benefits and trade-offs here ... it brings us to my same old question, what if you migrate to another country, wouldn't you be, just like you said, be another leacher off that country, that society ? ...
... since I reckon, your roots are weak in that country ? ... and you probably wouldn't fight for them ? ....
do you weight trade-offs and benefits when asked to defend your loved ones and your family ? ... when shit happens, do you think, oh ... I'm risking my life to defend all the banglas and maids and foreign talents in Singapore, cos there are (going to be) more of them than Singaporeans, or, do you think: it's for my family, my loved ones ..... -
Germany is a welfare state, so the Germans get better benefits that the foreigners.Originally posted by Fatum:many European countries, e.g. Germany, still impose National service, and they also have a large population of guest workers from last time (turkish, middle eastern guest workers)
But do palestinans get the same benefits as the Israelist? or are they underclass in Israel?
In this global economy, the value of citizenship has gone down. Countries without historical roots like Singapore will be the most prone to the devaluation of the citizneship.
Because we are a young nation, an artificially created society, i do not feel any emotional attachment for the country.Bear in mind emotions, loyalty is an irrational response, something not within your control. There are many countries in the world where the citizens will fight for their country even if they are paid ten cents, but Singapore i doubt is one of those countries.if the task of defending what yourself and your loved ones and assets is just a job to you, like you implied, since you're weighting off the benefits and trade-offs here ... it brings us to my same old question, what if you migrate to another country, wouldn't you be, just like you said, be another leacher off that country, that society ? ... ... since I reckon, your roots are weak in that country ? ... and you probably wouldn't fight for them ?
Yes the same problem would arise, that is why a country should never depend on foreigners to defend its country. -
Those with food are normally those in the army who are given rations. These rations can barter trade for other things like rice or medicine that can help your familyOriginally posted by siaokao:Wah.. you stay becoz of food?? Like dat.. no difference from annimals leh..
who otherwise in time of war have no way to earn a living.
when in war things like food, tobbaco, rice, fuel will be in short supply and many people will be starving, and fighting and robbing others, you want to run? run lah .. run overseas and you are fair game for all the pirates/bandits who waiting to rob and rape all the refugees. -
I reckon most countries are artificially created, no ? ... including the United States ... luckily for them, the "global economy" wasn't quite fashionable when she was born, that's why the young united states still have citizens willing to sacrifice themselves fighting for her during her formation years ... so how old do you reckon a country should be before it's worth fighting for ? ....Originally posted by Calvin86:Germany is a welfare state, so the Germans get better benefits that the foreigners.
In this global economy, the value of citizenship has gone down. Countries without historical roots like Singapore will be the most prone to the devaluation of the citizneship.
Because we are a young nation, an artificially created society, i do not feel any emotional attachment for the country. Bear in mind emotions, loyalty is an irrational response, something not within your control. There are many countries in the world where the citizens will fight for their country even if they are paid ten cents, but Singapore i doubt is one of those countries.
why is it that in this global economy, we still haven't abolished the concept of national boundaries ? because the global economy is precisely only that, an economy, the concept of countries and citizenship will never go away. Why is it that when you migrate to, say, the united states, you're asked to swear the pledge of allegiance to the stars and stripes (go google it) ? ... cos you're now asked to assume the burdens of being a citizen of the united states ....
Every country has it's burdens of citizenship, just that their respective citizens are asked to pay it in different ways, if you're happy being a leacher off another society, one that you feel doesn't "burden" you as much ... by all means do so, just remember that perhaps you'll be thought of in the same way as you view foreign talents/migrants/PRs/job snatchers here in Singapore.
good luck ... -
US was formed in a different context. The tyranny of the British Crown drove them to the revolution. US was a haven for religious freedom, its was an ideal that they were fighting for.Many immigrants were religiously persecuted back home in Europe, and the aristocrats have unfair priviledges. America was founded on the the princple - all men are equal. The Americans were fighting against the tyranny of their time. What are the Singaporeans of this generation fighting for today?Originally posted by Fatum:I reckon most countries are artificially created, no ? ... including the United States ... luckily for them, the "global economy" wasn't quite fashionable when she was born, that's why the young united states still have citizens willing to sacrifice themselves fighting for her during her formation years ... so how old do you reckon a country should be before it's worth fighting for ? .... -
Fighting for jobs, fighting for gf and bf, fighting for more space, fighting for more money, fighting for more transparency, fighting for human rights, fighting for more welfare?Originally posted by Calvin86:US was formed in a different context. The tyranny of the British Crown drove them to the revolution. US was a haven for religious freedom, its was an ideal that they were fighting for.Many immigrants were persecuted back home in Europe, and the aristocrats have unfair priviledges. America was founded on the the princple - all men are equal. The Americans were fighting against the tyranny of their time. What are the Singaporeans of this generation fighting for today? -
more national education please...
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what are the americans of today fighting for then ? ...Originally posted by Calvin86:US was formed in a different context. The tyranny of the British Crown drove the to the revolution. US was a haven for religious freedom, its was an ideal that they were fighting for. It had nothing to do with age of the country. The Americans were fighting against the tyranny. What are the Singaporeans of this generation fighting for today?
we are talking different languages here ... you are talking about the benefits and privileges of citizenship (or rather, the lack of) ...while I'm talking about the burden of citizenship, click on my profile and take a look where I am now, you know why I feel the way I feel about migration to another country ? cos I know first hand, that this is what many (at least those that'll openly say so to your face) feel about economic migrants/PR/foreign talents .... the burdens of citizenship is expected of you which ever country you belong to, or intend to pledge allegiance to next time.
it is, to quote your question:
of course ! ... if Singaporeans (that means you too) don't defend Singapore, who will ? ...Originally posted by Calvin86:Yes the same problem would arise, that is why a country should never depend on foreigners to defend its country. -
I wont defend Singapore,(if i can flee in time) if the govt decide to open the floodgates but give local citizens simlar priviledges as foreigners.Originally posted by Fatum:of course ! ... if Singaporeans (that means you too) don't defend Singapore, who will ? ...
The americans have already developed their own culture and national identity so there is no problem. Singapore on the other hand has a weak identity, coupled with globalization, cannot instill loyalty in its people unlike the americans.
If Singapore plans to increase the foreigners in Singapore, i think we should seriously consider a larger paid local regular force. -
funny ... I'd think it's the other way around ... seems to me that younger nations have more people willing to shed blood for them ... e.g Eritrea, East Timor ....Originally posted by Calvin86:The americans have already developed their own culture and national identity so there is no problem. Singapore on the other hand has a weak identity, coupled with globalization, cannot instill loyalty in its people unlike the americans.
If Singapore plans to increase the foreigners in Singapore, i think the govt should seriously consider a larger paid local regular force.
globalization is a threat I agree, but that still doesn't gets one off the burdens of citizenship which ever country you go too ... that is why we make able PRs serve NS too ....
if Singapore is located say, in the middle of the pacific, then I guess we may get away with a small paid regular force, heck, we may do away with NS all together ! ... but that we are not is a fact, that the world is getting to be a more dangerous place is a fact, once upon a time, the americans lived under the daily, constant threat of a nuclear war (remember the cold war anyone), I don't see many americans migrating ... (though there's a number of vietnam war draft dodgers in Canada, as well as a number of AWOL US soldiers who've run away to here) ... so yeah, I guess there are people who weights the benefits and privileges of citizenship like you do, it's not an exclusively Singaporean thing to do ... it is also a fact that we are a small country surrounded by sometimes hostile neighbours many times our size, so the numbers of men under arms is also an issue, a paid regular force ? ... infeasible and unlikely i reckon .... -
U should be asking this: Will those A$$ Officers stay put and fight for the country? If they do, then I stay or else I'm out of here. I'll only fight for the country but not for the little prince.
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Although i dont know much about these new countries, i believe they are united by religion or fighting against some form of tyranny. My original question still stands - What are Singaporeans fighting for that unites them? If there is none there must a developed national identity and values to hold us together like Americans but we have none.Originally posted by Fatum:funny ... I'd think it's the other way around ... seems to me that younger nations have more people willing to shed blood for them ... e.g Eritrea, East Timor .... -
What's the point of staying here? FTs come to increase the cost of your housing, they take your jobs, get hardwhip allowance for coming here, they take your women and men, leaving you stuck without a mate. The govt in all their wisdom decides to skirt the issue and come up with a romancing singapore to encourage more FTs to marry locals.
In shops, even the majority race gets discrminated against. When a FT punches and permanantly scars a local, he pays the same price for eating on the train or littering, $1000, not even a pinch of his high pay.
The burden of citizenship is fighting and dying for your country, but is there an advantage of citizenship? Isn't it very stupid to continue to sarcrifice time, money, effort and your entire life in service to an uncaring pap corporation?
Remember, this is not a nanny state, no one cares if you live or die. No one cares if you die for the country or not, unless you're rich, then the nation will morn for the lose of your tax money. -
Let's put it this way:Originally posted by SilverPal:The burden of citizenship is fighting and dying for your country, but is there an advantage of citizenship? Isn't it very stupid to continue to sarcrifice time, money, effort and your entire life in service to an uncaring pap corporation?
I will fight for my family, my friends and everyone and everything that I love and cherish. I will fight for them, and I will throw myself into harm's way to ensure that they come out alive.
I will not fight for the MIW. I only fight for the people I love and cherish - and that doesn't include those white-shirted politicians with their fat paychecks in their ivory towers. -
hmmmm ... now I'm really confused ...Originally posted by Calvin86:Although i dont know much about these new countries, i believe they are united by religion or fighting against some form of tyranny. My original question still stands - What are Singaporeans fighting for that unites them? If there is none there must a developed national identity and values to hold us together like Americans but we have none.
firstly you were talking about the benefits and privileges of citizenship (or the lack of them) ... but now, you're talking about fighting for values and national identity ? ....
it's not just the national identity and values that one fights for here, it's also, if not more importantly, your loved ones, your families, things that you cherish, I think, it's not about fighting to defend some foreigners' asses and assets, as you put it, but about what's yours .... if you say you're not going to fight cos you'll be defending some foreigners' asses and assets (or some "little prince's ass, or some party's ass, if you like) then it'll be like not putting out a fire at the ground floor of your HBD block, cos you'll be saving other people's homes too, isn't it ? ... isn't that like, to put it crudely, like cutting off your penis to just to spite some particular vagina ? ....
of course, if you like, or are able to, you can jabot somewhere else with all your assets, and all your loved ones (though i'd imagine shipping out all your friends and relatives would be a difficult task) and go somewhere else to live, which brings me back to my previous point; every country expects the same burden of citizenship from her citizens, and being an FT/migrant/refugee elsewhere would simply put you in the same position as the FT/migrant/bangla/maid/job-snatcher you've described here in Singapore too, won't it ? ... -
my main issue is still benefits and priviledges. Yes, every country expects the same burden of citizenship from her citizens. Germany gives welfare, US gives money for Army Reserves. Taiwanese and Koreans are protected from foreign floodgate.Originally posted by Fatum:of course, if you like, or are able to, you can jabot somewhere else with all your assets, and all your loved ones (though i'd imagine shipping out all your friends and relatives would be a difficult task) and go somewhere else to live, which brings me back to my previous point; every country expects the same burden of citizenship from her citizens, and being an FT/migrant/refugee elsewhere would simply put you in the same position as the FT/migrant/bangla/maid/job-snatcher you've described here in Singapore too, won't it ? ...
Singapore opens floodgate for foreigners but does not gives its citizens any benefits better than foreigners, so i refuse to sign the social contract. If there are signs of war, i will flee the country. -
Yes, I think Calvin is saying that Singapore does not value the contributions of its NS men enough. There is little advantage in defending Singapore, 'not sparring your life bood', as the SAF oath states. As the EDB Chairman so eloquently put it, he would rather give his scholarships and jobs to women and foreigners. Elites and foreign talents can avoid the rigors of NS and get ahead of you in seniority and pay..
If the country does not recognize your sacrifice, why bother? You have to think for yourself and do whatever is best for you and your family. -
now I shall not question if the chap's loyalty and blood is up for sale to the highest bidder, or to the country that accords him the highest privileges and benefits of citizenship.
my point is that the "social contract" which includes the "burdens" of citizenship, still stands, no other country in the world will as foreigners to help defend her (unless you're kuwait, and you have something the world needs badly), that burden has always fallen onto her citizens, and her citizens alone (now i'm repeating myself again ... )
and this FT flood is not limited to just Singapore alone ... you should know that too, OM, where you are right now, eh ? ...
across the country where I am, I see legions of people from the very same countries that's "flooding" Singapore right now too ... I see illegals working at take-outs and as delivery boys, professors who can barely speak proper English teaching maths and engineering, professionals on work permits working at local companies, and making the local curry resturants and dim sum places bustling ... and more too !, refugees and economic migrants from eastern europe, Africa trouble spots, south america, they are all here, too ! ...
the global economy, as the chap put it, hasn't erased away national boundaries, it has only made international competition more keenly felt at each national level, if you think Singapore is being flooded with foreigners, go take a holiday in vancouver for instance, first time I touched down, I thought i landed in Hong kong ! ... I once thought that we should limit foreigners here in Singapore, but now I conclude that doing that would be economic suicide, foreign competition is an inexorable force, this "FT" effect would be felt everywhere, sooner or later ...
as to the "social contract", please refer to my previous posts, it certainly exist too in other countries, infact, as one of my local friends so succintly put it:" I have no problems with foreigners coming here, but it's not about eating sushi and kebabs alone, are they willing to be loyal to this country and not to their native countries ? " .... yes, I get this sort of thing to my face ... (beer sessions make conversations flow). so, the expectation of the social contract is still there.
note that I'm not talking about fighting and dying for the flag now, or even to fight to defend your loved ones, if you think these are abstract concepts irrelevant to today's global ecnomies, and everyone should try to do the best for themselves, fine, but of course, in another country, you'll be the FT/job snatcher/leacher/whatever ... and not only do you loose your bitching rights, you'll be the subject of the natives' bitching too ...
In the end, I suspect that the real reason is that some chaps are simply sore about serving NS, am I right ? ... -
i think if got war.... the submarines government bought will be for evacuating the KEY APPT HOLDERS to a safe haven...hahahahah
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In times of war i will thinks of ways to survive. If the sinapore army shows clear signs that they will lose i will surely call my family to run first. I as a soldier will cover their backs. When they get away safely i will run too.
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it's pretty sad that after so many years in sg...Originally posted by Calvin86:Although i dont know much about these new countries, i believe they are united by religion or fighting against some form of tyranny. My original question still stands - What are Singaporeans fighting for that unites them? If there is none there must a developed national identity and values to hold us together like Americans but we have none.
u fail to see something here worth fighting for...
then it must be the bad education system's fault... -
What is singapore to you? if you don't own any assets, do you treasure your way of singaporean life? if you have nothing, I don't expect you to fight for my assets!Originally posted by Calvin86:Would you fight for Singapore if the Singapore Govt decides to increase to the population to 6-7 million?
I wouldnt stake my life for a place where there is little difference between foreigners and locals. Singapore is one of the few uniques places where it has a large foreign workforce and yet relies on a reservist army from citizens to defend it.
If the population increases to 6-7 million in future, i am not ashamed to say i would flee Singapore in times of war. Why should i defend the assets of foreigners?
http://www.singapore-window.org/sw06/060226st.htm
Have you served NS? what are you in NS, a Major, a pilot, or a commando
?? What can people like you, with weak or no national identity, let alone pride, do in defending Singapore?
how can I trust that you will not ask your officers for an extra $5 in the battlefield "or else I will not fire at the enemy"? what extra benefits can you be satisfied with? In time of war, I will not want any soldier like you around me, that you can take it to the bank.
If there are 7 millions singaporean, there will be more people doing NS, and we will have more people buying properties in singapore, more shoppers for our retail markets....and if you no share in it, make sure you do not become a burden to our country.
What can you do for singapore? before demanding what singapore can do for you.
pack up and go now. got country want you or not?