Internet political discourse "dangerous"
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<Originally posted by TooFree:I don't quite share your view. Instead, I would say that censorship or regulation is essential because of wrongful remarks or allegation make against the government and the worst case scenerio could have happened is social discontentment cause by a few unlawful and untruthful comment over the internet. In my opinion, this is definitely not fair to the defendant, government in this case, not unless the government is given a chance to speak up.
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In response to Low Thia Khiang's question on the use of new technologies in parliament, Dr Balaji Sadasivan stated clearly that the use of PODCASTING is prohibited during elections.
Below is an section of his statements to round off the discussion:We recognise that in our society, people will have their diverse opinion and some will want to share their opinion. But people should not take refuge behind the anonymity of the Internet to manipulate public opinion. “It is better and more responsible to engage in political debates in a factual
and objective manner,” he said
It looks like not only do the ruling party want to use the internet for publicity purposes, they want a blanket monopoly on it too.
It's like building a public highway only for ministers and party members to drive on.
Doesn't he realise that the local political atmosphere coupled with the obscure OB markers have made open debate virtually impossible without fear of defamation suits?
Responsible and objective arguments? Bullocks. As if they can even accept objective criticisms from the public.... -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Yup. Having vague laws is just like holding a gun and being free to use them anytime...
Is it " that difficult to 'police' (prosecute) " anyone using the internet that contravene existing laws ?
Have you so quickly forgotten the prosecution of the [b]TWO Singaporean Bloggers for their racist remarks on the internet towards the Singaporean Minority Community ?
[/b]
Usually it's those cases where they fire into the air or into of one of you to INSERT that INSTANT FEAR IN YOU.....
A 'gun' which is not given any much restriction or condition to its usage... Reminds me of myself when I was much younger... Playing a board game among friends.. Then because the game has varies versions of it which very much loosen up the rules... The loser board game owner just changes the rules of the game as he goes along.... Needless to say, he ultimately became the 'winner'.. But just not too long before everybody starts to quit.... -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
I've never really seen them show any much 'responsibility' when it comes to handling of political issues....?
In response to Low Thia Khiang's question on the use of new technologies in parliament, Dr Balaji Sadasivan stated clearly that the use of PODCASTING is prohibited during elections.
Below is an section of his statements to round off the discussion:
[b]
It looks like not only do the ruling party want to use the internet for publicity purposes, they want a blanket monopoly on it too.
It's like building a public highway only for ministers and party members to drive on.
Doesn't he realise that the local political atmosphere coupled with the obscure OB markers have made open debate virtually impossible without fear of defamation suits?
Responsible and objective arguments? Bullocks. As if they can even accept objective criticisms from the public....
[/b]
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Thing is..we cannot just quit this game.It's a nation we are talking about.Originally posted by Devil1976:Yup. Having vague laws is just like holding a gun and being free to use them anytime...
Usually it's those cases where they fire into the air or into of one of you to INSERT that INSTANT FEAR IN YOU.....
A 'gun' which is not given any much restriction or condition to its usage... Reminds me of myself when I was much younger... Playing a board game among friends.. Then because the game has varies versions of it which very much loosen up the rules... The loser board game owner just changes the rules of the game as he goes along.... Needless to say, he ultimately became the 'winner'.. But just not too long before everybody starts to quit.... -
Although Vague law are hard to interpret but such law does not immediately means giving a plaintiff a winning verdict should the matter be hailed to court. It is afterall, dependent on the circumstances and nature of the offence in our independent judicary. Time and court fees are heavy consideration too.
Instead, in my opinion, vague law does serve its purpose by reminding any person who intend to express views especially of national concern over the internet to be socially responsible especially such comments are accessible to the general public.
Another point of issue is that, what is 'acceptable' comment are hard to define. So in here we are faced with two extreme scenerios. Free speech or No speech, either which may result in discontentment among its citizens. Hence, vague law may seem proper after all. If not, read my first paragraph again.
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i guess singapore is really a 'democracy'Originally posted by LazerLordz:SINGAPORE (Reuters) -
Political debate on the Internet could fuel "dangerous discourse" in Singapore, the government said on Monday, warning people who post political commentary on Web sites could face prosecution.
Speaking in parliament, senior minister of state Balaji Sadasivan, said anyone using the Internet to "persistently propagate, promote or circulate political issues" about Singapore during election periods was breaking the law.
Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, whose People's Action Party has dominated politics in the city-state since independence in 1965, is widely expected to call early elections in the coming months.
"In a free-for-all Internet environment, where there are no rules, political debate could easily degenerate into an unhealthy, unreliable and dangerous discourse, flush with rumors and distortions to mislead and confuse the public," Sadasivan said.
The tiny island-republic's laws require political parties and individuals to register if they want to post political content on the Internet.
Print media in Singapore are tightly controlled, but the Internet is rife with Web sites that discuss Singapore politics, from the critical newsgroup sg_review (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review/) to the comical www.talkingcock.com and blogs such as singabloodypore (http://singabloodypore.blogspot.com) and www.yawningbread.org.
It is not clear whether any of these sites have registered with the government.
While Sadasivan said the government's approach was to take "a light touch" in regulating the Internet, political activists have complained that the rules are too broadly defined, preventing an open debate. He said a change of the law was ruled out.
The rules also apply to "podcasting," an increasingly popular medium through which audio files are made available for download on the Internet, allowing Web surfers to listen to them at their convenience.
Last year, opposition politician Chee Soon Juan launched a podcast on the Singapore Democratic Party's Web site in an attempt to reach a wider audience and bypass the pro-government media.
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What a big fat joke.
Dangerous discourse?Or is it a danger to the survival of certain interests..
please la PM Lee, if u read this, take a minute to think just how absurd you guys sound. Power is like tofu. The more tightly u try to grip it, the more it slips out from between yr fingers. -
Not true. The remarks were so off the mark that anyone would be offended. Those who make insensitive remarks on race and religion must be brought to task.Originally posted by BillyBong:True, yet the circumstances to which they were exposed and arrested was somewhat dubious.
It took a member of the public who was personally offended to call in and complain before the police took action. In truth, who's to say that these remarks would have been ignored had NO ONE COMPLAINED?
Inconsistent standards of addressing internet issues is another area of concern for the public domain. -
The time's already RIPE !! All the riped fruits had already been pluged away right before our eyes !Originally posted by Devil1976:Heard of the term 'CRY WOLF'?
If you don't want people to doubt you, why be dishonest in the 1st place
"Once bitten, TWICE SHY...." If there're a 3rd time, it might probably be TOO LATE.... IMAGINE what things they've been doing already with this level of CONTROL over US... Can you EVEN IMAGINE what they could be doing with MORE POWER....? You wanna sit around and TRY YOUR LUCK...?
MANY people often mention that Singapore politics is not that bad compared to many other countries... I'll say that's just because the time's not ripe... When it is, it'll be TOO LATE....
Payments in Hundreds and Thousands of Singapore Dollars to individual for their harvested sweet fruits.
The process of rebate already announced as Applications in April, Progressive payment from May, Delivery date of Votes is drawing nearer.
There are Praying hard for another next 5 year term bumber harvesting of peanuts. -
Talk is cheap when one can't back up one's claims with facts and source, which happens most of the time.
Internet is one of the best form to get information to the masses. And it's hard, if not impossible, to control.
Add these two together and you'll get uncontrollable discussions based not on facts, which I believe is why the government doesn't allow political discussion on the Internet. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Please note that I am referring to the fact that I have not known of people being prosecuted (successfully) under “Election Advertising Rules – 2001”.
Is it " that difficult to 'police' (prosecute) " anyone using the internet that contravene existing laws ?
Have you so quickly forgotten the prosecution of the [b]TWO Singaporean Bloggers for their racist remarks on the internet towards the Singaporean Minority Community ?
[/b]
The few Bloggers were charge and some convicted under different law – Sedition Act.
They are different issue. I will not mix them up. -
well if thats the way the govt wants to play it, dirty and unlawfully, then u wait and see... soon the people will speak up, and play it their way too. Give it a month or 2, u'll all wait and see.
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If you bother to make comparison with other countries, we're obviously difference in many aspects, sometimes I'm so embarass when my foreigner friend's ask me, How come ? why like that ?Originally posted by pisces8:Please note that I am referring to the fact that I have not known of people being prosecuted (successfully) under “Election Advertising Rules – 2001”.
The few Bloggers were charge and some convicted under different law – Sedition Act.
They are different issue. I will not mix them up. -
If the government is going to make an example out of it, the information can be fed to the press and it will be page 1 news (just like the talk given by Dr Balaji. I don’t think the press will miss such “issue” if any of the case has gone to the Court.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:Not seen in newspapers doesn't mean don't have. Cases can go unreported or police have been keeping a tight lip on such issues.
If the police have been keeping a tight lip on such issues (if there is any such case in the first instant), it only encourages more such cases to happen, right. -
I think you're all wasting breaths here.
They will only do what they deem is RIGHT, and there is NO ONE left around with enough political clout, to do anything about whatever they do.
In fact, I don't see any need for ane ellection. Just automatically re-instate themselves permanently is the best way, and cut all this drama charade. -
agreeOriginally posted by ShutterBug:I think you're all wasting breaths here.
They will only do what they deem is RIGHT, and there is NO ONE left around with enough political clout, to do anything about whatever they do.
In fact, I don't see any need for ane ellection. Just automatically re-instate themselves permanently is the best way, and cut all this drama charade. -
I totally agree with you that if we do bother to make comparison with other countries, there are plenty of differences, eg dead penalty, ISA, and etc. Yet at the end of the day, the differences do make Singapore tick, and the envy of many foreigners.Originally posted by SG,LauBaiXing:If you bother to make comparison with other countries, we're obviously difference in many aspects, sometimes I'm so embarass when my foreigner friend's ask me, How come ? why like that ? -
Prior to this incident, i could have lifted more than 15 different inflamatory racist remarks made ( from sammyboi and other forums) that can easily fall under the catagory of sedition.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Not true. The remarks were so off the mark that anyone would be offended. Those who make insensitive remarks on race and religion must be brought to task.
Yet the police chose to act only when a member of the forum made an official complaint because she felt the comments were DIRECTED at her.
Had the comments been made in a general manner and not directly implicating any individual, would the same thing have happened? Would a person have been offended enough to make a citizen's call for the greater good? Are we even at that level?
Our own people are too afraid to step out of their comfort zone to warn errant smokers at bus stops or lecture parents who yak on their cell phones in libraries while their kids run riot. We grow up with a subdued atmosphere cowed into a "mind my own business" attitude that we forget how to extend help or stand up against wrongful acts. -
I know... Don't intend to too...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Thing is..we cannot just quit this game.It's a nation we are talking about.
There's only ONE NATURAL LAW in this WORLD... Either you OPEN yourself up to REALITY... Or IT'll FORCES its WAY THROUGH..... And often the latter would be UGLY.... -
I've seen the '2 sides' to 'vague laws'... It can bring about ALOT of MERCY... At the SAME TIME it can just be 'abused'... OFTEN, the LATTER being SO MUCH UGLIER and MORE BRUTUAL... Have it NOT been seen before how FAMOUS lawyers from other countries have came over to fight cases against the government only to SUFFER COLD CONCRETE DEFEAT, standing no chance of ANY debate at all...?Originally posted by TooFree:Although Vague law are hard to interpret but such law does not immediately means giving a plaintiff a winning verdict should the matter be hailed to court. It is afterall, dependent on the circumstances and nature of the offence in our independent judicary. Time and court fees are heavy consideration too.
Instead, in my opinion, vague law does serve its purpose by reminding any person who intend to express views especially of national concern over the internet to be socially responsible especially such comments are accessible to the general public.
Another point of issue is that, what is 'acceptable' comment are hard to define. So in here we are faced with two extreme scenerios. Free speech or No speech, either which may result in discontentment among its citizens. Hence, vague law may seem proper after all. If not, read my first paragraph again.
At this point I would like to ask you what 'independent judicary' are you talking about..? And YES... I AGREE with you that TIME and COURT FEES are of HIGH CONSIDERATIONS.... So with the police convenient pushing away cases as 'Civil cases', JUSTICE as they've often said is just a GAME of the RICH and POWERFUL...?
Talk about 'social responsibility' and 'national concerns'... I don't to add further as I've previously commented... Just what 'RESPONSIBILITY' have been well-displayed in regards to NATIONAL CONCERNS...?
May I bring to YOUR UNDERSTANDING that 'FREE SPEECH' and 'NO FREE SPEECH' are NEVER 2 EXTREMES by THEIR OWN NATURES... You think SINGAPOREANS don't wanna worry more about their bread issues...? About how to BETTER their LIVES....?
'FREE SPEECH' has BECOME an EXTREME ISSUE because PEOPLE ARE PRESSED INTO IT.... Haven't you notice by now how majority of our income is hardly overcoming our expenses...? It's just a way of dangling the carrot in front of the donkey... So that EVERYBODY would be TOO BUSY to give 'them' TROUBLE.... The DIFFERENCE NOW is ONLY THAT PEOPLE DON'T FEEL LIKE BEING PLAYED OUT AS DONKEYS ANYMORE... 1ST THE PEANUTS... THEN NOW THE 'CARROTS' SO GENEROUSLY THROWN JUST BEFORE THE ELECTION...
FEEL LIKE BEING A MONKEY ANYONE? -
Yes, that much I can agree with you upon.Originally posted by Parka: Talk is cheap when one can't back up one's claims with facts and source, which happens most of the time.
Internet is one of the best form to get information to the masses. And it's hard, if not impossible, to control.
Add these two together and you'll get uncontrollable discussions based not on facts, which I believe is why the government doesn't allow political discussion on the Internet.
But another thing which I wish to ADD... Their ACTIONS can only SPEAK THAT MUCH for THEMSELVES... -
Sometimes I simply can't help but to think who's talk is really that CHEAPOriginally posted by Parka: Talk is cheap when one can't back up one's claims with facts and source, which happens most of the time.
Internet is one of the best form to get information to the masses. And it's hard, if not impossible, to control.
Add these two together and you'll get uncontrollable discussions based not on facts, which I believe is why the government doesn't allow political discussion on the Internet. -
Somehow I just can't help thinking how DIRTY they're willing to go from the way they're doing things...Originally posted by HENG@:well if thats the way the govt wants to play it, dirty and unlawfully, then u wait and see... soon the people will speak up, and play it their way too. Give it a month or 2, u'll all wait and see.
As much as I've got to ADMIT that they've contributed MUCH to the DEVELOPMENT of SINGAPORE...
BUT the FORM of DISRESPECT they GIVE to ITS PEOPLE... The FORM of DISHONESTY DISPLAYED... The REFUSAL to OPEN UP SINGAPORE to GENUINE DEBATES on ISSUES BASED on FREEDOM OF SPEECH...
Is already DRIVING UP ENOUGH DIRECT and INDIRECT SOCIAL PROBLEMS.... -
I USED to agree, but now I WOULD DISAGREE.... Because it suddenly REMINDS me of the 5th NOV....Originally posted by HENG@:agree -
SAD NOW... ISN'T IT....?Originally posted by BillyBong:Prior to this incident, i could have lifted more than 15 different inflamatory racist remarks made ( from sammyboi and other forums) that can easily fall under the catagory of sedition.
Yet the police chose to act only when a member of the forum made an official complaint because she felt the comments were DIRECTED at her.
Had the comments been made in a general manner and not directly implicating any individual, would the same thing have happened? Would a person have been offended enough to make a citizen's call for the greater good? Are we even at that level?
Our own people are too afraid to step out of their comfort zone to warn errant smokers at bus stops or lecture parents who yak on their cell phones in libraries while their kids run riot. We grow up with a subdued atmosphere cowed into a "mind my own business" attitude that we forget how to extend help or stand up against wrongful acts.