Internet political discourse "dangerous"
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Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
i find so much of what you "open-minded", sliding-towards-sg-government-bashing people have to say incredibly utopian in ideals but not at all achievable in any society.
you're saying freedom of speech and the right to exert our wishes isn't achievable in any society? it probably cannot be achieved in this country only as everywhere else you find to varying degrees, the people's right to exert their wishes, even in a communist state like Ukraine, where we witnessed some protests of late. so are we worse than the communists? seems like we're closer to a military junta in this respect.
Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?
when you start off by saying that views expressed, other than those of the official tagline, is considered rubbish, you leave no room for an 'open minded' discussion.
Dont get me wrong. I'm all for fighting for your ideals and rights in any society. BUT. There is a danger here that i fear many do not see. I'm going to give you a clear cut example. Take the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia for example. Just before the Khmer Rouge gained power, Cambodia was a fricking rich country, proudcer and exporter of rice; also very technogically advanced for the 1940s (i think it was then) and a hub for business. HOWEVER, due to corruption in the government, which was made public, many wanted them to step down, and many people supported the Khmer Rouge ideals (which are no different from yours or mine during the campaign period). When the new party finally came into power, disaster broke out and just because of 3 years of bad governing, look at the state of cambodia today. It is utterly backwards, it cannot even produce enough to feed its own people.
i don't think combodia was very rich in the 1940s. in the immediate aftermath of the second world war, i think only USA and switzerland were rich. in any case, what's your point?
Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people.
the same can be said about Thaksin, of how he forgot that, at the end of the day, he needs to answer to the needs of the people. the more successful he became, the more carried away he became so much so that he forgot the concerns of his people and sold away the symbol of their national pride.
That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT.
it's just a power struggle between a group of rich people and another group of rich people. in the end, one group triumphed over another group simply because it paid better attention to the needs of the people.
Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF.
the same can be said about our leaders achievements. i always hear people say that they built this country, they gave us economic prosperity. but did they achieve these all by themselves? without the hardwork of us people, what could they have built? what prosperity would we have had?
Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?
why choose countries like india? why not choose countries like USA, switzerland, finland, australia? compared to these countries how much luckier can we get? teritary education in germany is free. here, they're jacking up fees year after year, so should i count myself unlucky instead?
That is why i am wary of people who claim to fight ALL THE WAY for free speech, those who are over eager to nit pick with the government, because i feel that they are spoiled citizens. Appreciate what you have right now, thats all i have to say.
what right do you have to brand individuals who speak up for injustice or wrong doing as being 'spoilt'? you belittle our concerns and demonstrate ignorance and haughtiness. there are certainly things we appreciate. but if these things can buy our conscience or shut us up then surely we must be spineless creatures.
I'm not saying that you have to close your mind to any viewpoints and to NEVER question the government. Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.
'complaints', 'ramblings', 'boredom' and 'childish' are words borne out of a biased and closed disposition. -
Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
Your arguments are all focused on 3rd World nations, sounds so much like a typical piece that is trying to scare the unwashed of Singapore about a government led by any other party.
i find so much of what you "open-minded", sliding-towards-sg-government-bashing people have to say incredibly utopian in ideals but not at all achievable in any society.
Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?
Dont get me wrong. I'm all for fighting for your ideals and rights in any society. BUT. There is a danger here that i fear many do not see. I'm going to give you a clear cut example. Take the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia for example. Just before the Khmer Rouge gained power, Cambodia was a fricking rich country, proudcer and exporter of rice; also very technogically advanced for the 1940s (i think it was then) and a hub for business. HOWEVER, due to corruption in the government, which was made public, many wanted them to step down, and many people supported the Khmer Rouge ideals (which are no different from yours or mine during the campaign period). When the new party finally came into power, disaster broke out and just because of 3 years of bad governing, look at the state of cambodia today. It is utterly backwards, it cannot even produce enough to feed its own people.
Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. [b]My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT. Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF. Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?
That is why i am wary of people who claim to fight ALL THE WAY for free speech, those who are over eager to nit pick with the government, because i feel that they are spoiled citizens. Appreciate what you have right now, thats all i have to say.
I'm not saying that you have to close your mind to any viewpoints and to NEVER question the government. Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.[/b]
What a hoot. -
The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.Originally posted by CaramelCrab:i find so much of what you "open-minded", sliding-towards-sg-government-bashing people have to say incredibly utopian in ideals but not at all achievable in any society.
Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915)
We need men who can dream of things that never were.
John F. Kennedy (1917 - 1963),
speech in Dublin, Ireland,
June 28, 1963Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?
When you have a population that is disinterested in politics, cowed by the display of abusive powers, and cynical of every sincere effort of individual Singaporean to face up to the POWER OF ONE - what is your own position in accepting the individual efforts of those who dare to stand up for their beliefs and principle ?
If you are supportive and sympathetic towards these brave Singaporeans, what will be the extent of your support ?Dont get me wrong. I'm all for fighting for your ideals and rights in any society. BUT. There is a danger here that i fear many do not see. I'm going to give you a clear cut example. Take the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia for example. Just before the Khmer Rouge gained power, Cambodia was a fricking rich country, proudcer and exporter of rice; also very technogically advanced for the 1940s (i think it was then) and a hub for business. HOWEVER, due to corruption in the government, which was made public, many wanted them to step down, and many people supported the Khmer Rouge ideals (which are no different from yours or mine during the campaign period). When the new party finally came into power, disaster broke out and just because of 3 years of bad governing, look at the state of cambodia today. It is utterly backwards, it cannot even produce enough to feed its own people.
Are you certain of your accuracy in your understanding of the History of Cambodia - from her " Early History to Independence " ?
Was Cambodia rich in the 1940s, or was it Saigon in Vietnam that was the hub of the region - being known as 'Pearl of the Orient' ?Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT. Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF. Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?
Have you heard of the fight amongst the various parts of your body to be the BIG BOSS - when every individual body part has a valid reason to be the BOSS over the other, until the 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' kept his mouth shut long enough to upset every part of the body, and with every parts willingly accept the 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' to be the defacto 'BOSS' .
If you calm down enough - you maybe able to see better if you do not let your 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' become the boss of your body, and let the other parts of the body work together and make YOU as the boss instead of your 'a-r-s-e-h-o-l-e' .
Try not to mix your little understanding of the circumstances in Thailand with the happenings in Singapore - they are a world apart, with a King who is deeply revered by every Thai Citizen, unlike a Head of State in Singapore that is little more then a titular Head of State that is legally manipulated by the Ruling Political Party through legislations.
The RICH in Thailand became RICH by THEIR OWN MEANS, through their INGENUITY and RESOURCEFULNESS - OR - was there a continuous succession of stable Thai Governments BEFORE THAKSIN, with each lasting long enough to provide an environment that allowed those Thai Rich - like Thaksin to grow Shin Corp ? Or was Shin Corp success due very much to the freedom that is available for PRIVATE ENTERPRISE TO GROW without any unfair competition from the STATE ?
For your information, South Africa today is enjoying a level of ecstatic freedom and true independence from the ignominious days under APARTHEID. Comparatively, in the First World of Singapore, the Singapore Citizens ability to exercise their Constitutional Rights are subject to the threats of being incarcerated by the Internal Security Act and the Criminal Detention Legislation; the Elected President is "advised" by an Advisory Panel of carefully selected persons - overseen by the Ruling Political Party.That is why i am wary of people who claim to fight ALL THE WAY for free speech, those who are over eager to nit pick with the government, because i feel that they are spoiled citizens. Appreciate what you have right now, thats all i have to say.
If one is to BELIEVE in DEMOCRACY - we should also accept your position, your point of views, and your preference in letting the lowest to be your BOSS.
I'm not saying that you have to close your mind to any viewpoints and to NEVER question the government. Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.
Can anyone stop you from your treasured position - as much as each of us value our own ?
Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
Oscar Wilde,
The Soul of Man Under Socialism
Some men change their party for the sake of their principles;
others their principles for the sake of their party.
Winston Churchill -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
That is so true. It is also telling when people who criticize the government have absolutely nothing positive to say and offer no credible solutions. I disagree with many government policies but one should give credit where credit is due.
And just because you agree with some government policies does not make you a government dog either...how immature can people be?
Your defensive nature seems to belly your own insecurity. For one, apart from Heng, has anyone suggested that siding with specific govt policies make you a 'govt dog'?
There are several policies that certainly warrent merit: modernisation of our transportation system, affordable education for all singaporeans (less university level) etc, but what sickens me is that our govt prefers to trump up their past successes as a platform to promote and preserve their current high status.
Such a move is dangerous and should not be frequently employed to 'remind' the people of past achievements, lest we sink into the same stinkhole as the older generation of English, who still consider the commonwealth as part of the decadant British EMPIRE, Singapore included. In any case, people look to the future and those who can provide it.
This appealing factor of regurgitating has no merit when one digs deeper into the closet of skeletons our ruling party have built; an exaggrated list of successes glossing over an equally large track record of scant failures. At the same time, a dearth of creativity in our much-acclaimed 'scholarship programme' has reduced our present economy to stagnation, a feature eagerly denied by our finance ministry, which continuously projects optimistic figures of GDP growth.
Have you ignored the suggestions raised by numerous forumers regarding the channelling of BUDGET 2006 monies into an endowment fund to REALLY help the low-income group instead of throwing 'free' money at the people, believing that such a budget plan will solve the LONG TERM issues of financial problems in the heartlands? Or the suggested improvements to our highways to incorporate car pool lanes in place of the pay and pay scheme of ERP which so far has evidently FAILED based on the numerous people who wrote into ST forum disputing the fictious improvements in traffic jams claimed by LTA at peak hours? (To this day, LTA has YET to respond)
Perhaps your blind accusations about people ignoring the GOOD that the govt has done, along with your comments about forumers that 'criticise' but 'offer no credible solutions', belly your own choice to IGNORE what HAS BEEN SUGGESTED in past posts? -
[quote]Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?
My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care.
Hi,CaramelCrab.
What you've said in the above is seriously worrying to me, you are reminding me of "cooking frogs in cold water"
This is super selfishness in you if you said "no matter how corrupted or authoritive or dogmatic it may be"
I would like to engaged you to actively participate in this sgForum to give your view points to others caring Singaporeans who are ready to discuss with open minds. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Too many posts by forumers here have been repeating the same criticism that they sound like a broken down record player..
Have you ignored the suggestions raised by numerous forumers regarding the channelling of BUDGET 2006 monies into an endowment fund to REALLY help the low-income group instead of throwing 'free' money at the people, believing that such a budget plan will solve the LONG TERM issues of financial problems in the heartlands? Or the suggested improvements to our highways to incorporate car pool lanes in place of the pay and pay scheme of ERP which so far has evidently FAILED based on the numerous people who wrote into ST forum disputing the fictious improvements in traffic jams claimed by LTA at peak hours? ([u]To this day, LTA has YET to respond
I have no issue with money in an endowment fund for low-income groups but the question is how is it going to be administered. Like skills development fund that already exists? How will that help those who cannot work? The devil is in the details....the armchair politicians here have to think more deeply than they have so far..
The easy money given out in the progress package is an election ploy..I think that is clear. But for all it's worth, they do give out more to those who are poorer.
Car pool? It will never work in Singapore. Go ask Singaporeans if they will share a car with a stranger. However, I do not see why there is a need for COE if we already have ERP to regulate the usage of cars on the road. Because the cost of car ownership is so high, Singaporeans would pay the ERP since they already have incurred high capital costs buying the car.
People can criticise the government and give their alternative ideas. That's fine but I do not see any balance in the arguments presented and there is a tendency to disparage those who support government policies. It only serves to discredit their political position. -
The fact that no body had been prosecuted under the “Election Advertising Rules – 2001” is a very good indication that most people are aware of the “law” and are posting in a positive manner, ie responsibly.Originally posted by Atobe:The fact that the two Bloggers were prosecuted under the Sedition Act for posting on the net, already confirm that no one is safe from the Singapore Government aka the Ruling Political Party, even when posting in the free world-wide web.
With a specific Law that target Singapore commentators in the Web during the Election Period, it merely confirms that the Ruling Political Party continue to insist on its MONOPOLISTIC GRIP on ALL FORMS OF MEDIA that allow anyone a WIDE AND UNCONTROLLED ACCESS to reach the minds of Singaporeans.
The fact that this thread is still open, the websites still running and you are still posting shows that the “Ruling Political Party” do not insist on its “MONOPOLISTIC GRIP on ALL FORMS OF MEDIA”. So continue our “WIDE AND UNCONTROLLED ACCESS to reach the minds of Singaporeans”.
Joke aside, I do believe that so long we post responsibly; we can continue what we are doing.
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hear hear ! ....Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Too many posts by forumers here have been repeating the same criticism that they sound like a broken down record player..
I have no issue with money in an endowment fund for low-income groups but the question is how is it going to be administered. Like skills development fund that already exists? How will that help those who cannot work? The devil is in the details....the armchair politicians here have to think more deeply than they have so far..
The easy money given out in the progress package is an election ploy..I think that is clear. But for all it's worth, they do give out more to those who are poorer.
Car pool? It will never work in Singapore. Go ask Singaporeans if they will share a car with a stranger. However, I do not see why there is a need for COE if we already have ERP to regulate the usage of cars on the road. Because the cost of car ownership is so high, Singaporeans would pay the ERP since they already have incurred high capital costs buying the car.
People can criticise the government and give their alternative ideas. That's fine but I do not see any balance in the arguments presented and there is a tendency to disparage those who support government policies. It only serves to discredit their political position.
In the end, it doesn't really matter OM, some chaps here are clearly from the opposition camp, while others simply like to engage in, what another forumer calls "mental masturbation" .... some people like playing the intellectual rebels, engaging in pointless dialectics, these people don't really have a position at all ... they just like to oppose for the sake of opposing ......
ah well .... it takes all sort eh ....
.... -
Originally posted by SG,LauBaiXing:
I would put it in another way, if the government is thoroughly corrupted, then the chances is the country will go down the drain, ie low possibility of vast improvement in the standard of living of the general population.
[quote]Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
Its fair to say, hey i want a government that allows us to express our own views no matter how rubbish they might be. But to what extent are you willing to sacrifice your comforts in life for ideals?
[b]My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care.
Hi,CaramelCrab.
What you've said in the above is seriously worrying to me, you are reminding me of "cooking frogs in cold water"
This is super selfishness in you if you said "no matter how corrupted or authoritive or dogmatic it may be"
I would like to engaged you to actively participate in this sgForum to give your view points to others caring Singaporeans who are ready to discuss with open minds.[/b]
Government policies may not be good to all people but if they are good to the majority of the people then they are fine (popular policy). Some policies may not be even good to the majority of the people as of now (termed as unpopular policy) but if they ensure a long term betterment of the country then why do we object to such (if we have long term view in mind). -
What the crap! Ministers are paid so much and WE have to provide them better IDEAS????Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Too many posts by forumers here have been repeating the same criticism that they sound like a broken down record player..
I have no issue with money in an endowment fund for low-income groups but the question is how is it going to be administered. Like skills development fund that already exists? How will that help those who cannot work? The devil is in the details....the armchair politicians here have to think more deeply than they have so far..
The easy money given out in the progress package is an election ploy..I think that is clear. But for all it's worth, they do give out more to those who are poorer.
Car pool? It will never work in Singapore. Go ask Singaporeans if they will share a car with a stranger. However, I do not see why there is a need for COE if we already have ERP to regulate the usage of cars on the road. Because the cost of car ownership is so high, Singaporeans would pay the ERP since they already have incurred high capital costs buying the car.
People can criticise the government and give their alternative ideas. That's fine but I do not see any balance in the arguments presented and there is a tendency to disparage those who support government policies. It only serves to discredit their political position.
And ideed, what good has ERP produced? Or even the COE? Roads are still jammed, people are still buying cars, and it's an ordeal trying to travel by public because of the sheer volume of commuters. And we can chalk it down to a whimsy idea conceived while in the loo with regards Car Pooling.
Ya, Progress Package so it's an election ploy, but it's still our money given back to us for now regardless of amount.
You know, I believe in time, when all of us post and pre 1965 generations have died off, the newer more globally mobile and capable generation will bleed steadily out of this country, leaving only the aged, sick, and all these foreigners.
What's left? -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Too many posts by forumers here have been repeating the same criticism that they sound like a broken down record player..
likewise for the repeative defenses of our govt that we constantly tear down ... with ease.
People can criticise the government and give their alternative ideas. That's fine but I do not see any balance in the arguments presented and there is a tendency to disparage those who support government policies. It only serves to discredit their political position.
let me ask you, has the govt been balanced in the way it treats or lambasts the opposition? if they themselves aren't balanced, why should they deserve balance in return? who is the biggest bully here? who should we be speaking up for? the bully or the bullied?
we're not here to disparage anybody. if you speak with conviction on the side of the truth, no amount of disparaging can damage or bend your arguments. -
wide? how wide or uncontrolled can the truth be? in any case when you look at the number of clicks beside each topic, you'd realise the extent of our reach is extremely limited ...Originally posted by pisces8:So continue our “WIDE AND UNCONTROLLED ACCESS to reach the minds of Singaporeans”. -
really? care to point out to us who are the masturbaters, intellectual rebels, or opposers for the sake of opposing? when you take these people out, who are left behind? you and all the govt supporters?Originally posted by Fatum:hear hear ! ....
In the end, it doesn't really matter OM, some chaps here are clearly from the opposition camp, while others simply like to engage in, what another forumer calls "mental masturbation" .... some people like playing the intellectual rebels, engaging in pointless dialectics, these people don't really have a position at all ... they just like to oppose for the sake of opposing ......
ah well .... it takes all sort eh .... .... -
see what I mean ? ........Originally posted by snow leopard:really? care to point out to us who are the masturbaters, intellectual rebels, or opposers for the sake of opposing? when you take these people out, who are left behind? you and all the govt supporters? -
no i don't. what do you mean?Originally posted by Fatum:see what I mean ? ........ -
Be it a Family, a Company or a Country, there are policy makers to set rules & regulations for the benifit to resolve issues.Originally posted by snow leopard:really? care to point out to us who are the masturbaters, intellectual rebels, or opposers for the sake of opposing? when you take these people out, who are left behind? you and all the govt supporters?
Counter-measures are mean to retify problems and most importantly preventive-measures need to be address to stop abuse with good effective corrective actions to avoid negative impacts.
Just to name one, COE Bidding Systems for new Car is to discourage car ownership and regulate car population.
The COE is implemented for car buyers to bid, but dealer is using other peoples IC's in most biding and to secure the cert. then selling with new car as package deal. Do you see the abuse ?
We are not car manufacturer, but exported lot's of used car due the rebate off-setting much higher than re-sale. Do you see the wasting of re-sourses ?
COE and many other earlier implementations to reduce car population as an main objective, the scrap car COE rebate should be refunded by cash to encourage buyer to give up their car, instead of re-using it as contra for another new car COE. Do you see the deficiency ?
Complaint of bad policy is becoming a voice of Opposition to the ruler's ears and if this kind of mis-understanding will to continue, the Nation peoples will definetely divided. -
Originally posted by SG,LauBaiXing:
Be it a Family, a Company or a Country, there are policy makers to set rules & regulations for the benifit to resolve issues.
there are fundamental differences between family, company and country. in the family, the parents would rather go hungry to make sure the kids are properly fed. our leaders on the other hand, make sure they pay themselves millions first before they dish out pittance to low income families (just before the election that is). because there is genuine love and care in the family, you don't need rules for its harmonious functioning. the same cannot be said about the country and when rules are set to benefit one group at the expense of the rest, then they create social issues that no one can address unless they get voted into parilament.
similarly, the company will give no hoots about dismissing you in exchange for a cheap foreigner. the country too will welcome foreign talent with open arms regardless of the detriment to our well being. your family will never, never abandon you ...
Counter-measures are mean to retify problems and most importantly preventive-measures need to be address to stop abuse with good effective corrective actions to avoid negative impacts.
Just to name one, COE Bidding Systems for new Car is to discourage car ownership and regulate car population.
The COE is implemented for car buyers to bid, but dealer is using other peoples IC's in most biding and to secure the cert. then selling with new car as package deal. Do you see the abuse ?
We are not car manufacturer, but exported lot's of used car due the rebate off-setting much higher than re-sale. Do you see the wasting of re-sourses ?
COE and many other earlier implementations to reduce car population as an main objective, the scrap car COE rebate should be refunded by cash to encourage buyer to give up their car, instead of re-using it as contra for another new car COE. Do you see the deficiency ?
yes, yes i agwee with all that. just to add one more, there will always be rationale that appeal to the masses, that seemingly benefits the society like keeping our roads smooth. on the other hand there is also that underlying rationale which is simply to fill coffers to the brim.
unless they're saying that all the money they get from COE goes to the charities and they don't keep a single cent, then we are assured they are not for the money but truly wants to keep our roads smooth. but if they hold on to the money, lots of money that is, then you have to ask yourself what is their underlying motive and what is merely an excuse, no matter how nice sounding it maybe on the surface.
Complaint of bad policy is becoming a voice of Opposition to the ruler's ears and if this kind of mis-understanding will to continue, the Nation peoples will definetely divided.
in the first place, if the rulers are truly open to ideas and never once think they have the best answers to everything, they would pause and reflect on our feedback. but if they're too stuck up to listen to us then the only way to get them to listen is to have someone debate it on our behalf in the parliament.
if our leaders truly love us like a family, then there will be no divide. if we know that the utmost in our leaders' minds is us, then we would surely reciprocate with commitment and cooperation. but when our leaders think of themselves first, then they have to accept that we would not be happy about it and if that means divide, so be it. if divide is the necessary precursor to change and subsequent harmonisation then that is the price we have to pay for a better society and a birghter future. -
i really need to ask you Fatum, why is it you and some of those in your camp always resort to name calling when you run out of things to say? why can't you just stay on the issue and not refrain from using cheap insults?Originally posted by Fatum:hear hear ! ....
In the end, it doesn't really matter OM, some chaps here are clearly from the opposition camp, while others simply like to engage in, what another forumer calls "mental masturbation" .... some people like playing the intellectual rebels, engaging in pointless dialectics, these people don't really have a position at all ... they just like to oppose for the sake of opposing ......
ah well .... it takes all sort eh .... .... -
and they all make up what is a real nation. Not a nation of policymakers and apologetics, so you should not be harsh on them.Originally posted by Fatum:hear hear ! ....
In the end, it doesn't really matter OM, some chaps here are clearly from the opposition camp, while others simply like to engage in, what another forumer calls "mental masturbation" .... some people like playing the intellectual rebels, engaging in pointless dialectics, these people don't really have a position at all ... they just like to oppose for the sake of opposing ......
ah well .... it takes all sort eh .... ....
What is a real republic when you only have logical, sterilised views?In fact, anyone that comes to the debating table brings with him/her opinions shaped by his experiences.
Oh yes, opposition camp.That's a label that can easily be applied both ways too.
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Snow Leopard, you might get your points across if you can reduce the huge chunks of text in your arguments.
It's honestly quite a lot of repetitions. -
me and my camp ? .... which camp exactly do I belong to ? .... do you not think it's presumptious of you to label me ? ... and you wonder what do I mean ? ....Originally posted by snow leopard:i really need to ask you Fatum, why is it you and some of those in your camp always resort to name calling when you run out of things to say? why can't you just stay on the issue and not refrain from using cheap insults?
so ... according to your black and white worldview, if I do not subscribe to your arguments, I am thus a goverment supporter ? ...
this forum has a lot of promise, look at the date which I signed up, initially, I thought the internet is a free and unbridled space where people could hold honest discourses on politics and issues which affect all our lives .... the cynicism sets in very quickly however, .... I stand by my views of many of the people here, after a while, it becomes apparent that some are here with an agenda, others are here simply for the dialectic game, yet others like to play the sanctimonious intellectual rebel ... like I said, hey, it takes all sorts ..... but remember this, this is not a debating club after all, but a forum .... if people gets dilineated into black and white camps like this, is it any wonder that after a while, you'll only get to see only people with a view similar to yours ? ... birds of a feather always cluster together, no ? ... In anycase, for those people with an agenda, I'll have to say that they'll have to take care to engage people, not put people down, logic and dialectics can only get one so far, it's how you win the hearts and minds of people who are cynical and opposed to you that really matters ... for those "mental masturbators" have fun scratching yourselves .......
so .... people of one political persuasion cluster in one particular forum .... people of another persuasion cluster in another ...
... why not take a step back, and scroll through this forum again ? does it really much like a real discussion ? ... or does it look like a bunch of people all talking to each other's hands ? ....
well ... since you've labelled me first .... which category do you think you belong to ? .... -
That's is why many caring Singaporeans who have completely no interest in politics, for their neutral stance and bother to keep repeating long history texts just to get to the point of "no to politic, but no to bad policies" had been label as rebels.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Snow Leopard, you might get your points across if you can reduce the huge chunks of text in your arguments.
It's honestly quite a lot of repetitions.
It is very obvious to me that the ruling party is using the famous "Monetary Option To Rule". I will stop to say this if the ruler's change to harsh policy regardless with money !
Taiwaness LI HOU had just shamed our Singaporeans, I'm not angry at all with feelings in silence grievance because we really can't do anything to our ruling government for a change and benefiting our Nation and peoples as a whole.
I would like to clarify again with our caring Singaporeans, Singapore is a country for the Singaporeans and never mis-led by the Ruling party that they owns Singapore, if you don't care and I don't bother, others will say that we're stupid and our genes is no good ! -
When this thread was highlighted to me, its running 7 pages long. I skipped the middle 5 pages and read the first page and the last, assuming that the arguments are repeative.
The arguments are very critical, I appluad for that. However, there are things puzzling me. For one, why be so critical when all these talks are not going to affect how Singapore is run? I am not those who follows the political scene actively, but if I am not wrong, Mr Goh once did tick off Caterine (I forgot her surname), a writer for being a armchair critic.
If you want to comment how the Government, Singapore is ran, don't talk from the sidelines, that was the gist of the scolding. However, for you guys, why not this. Get your butts off the chairs, eyes from the computer screens and start campaigning. 
And please, when you guys start campaining, go campaign under party banners. You won't want to have 3 corner fights that results in having the PAP to have the majority, right?
By the way, there is something about how the government is going to stop people overseas to post podcasts, blogs related to the elections? Singapore don't have the famed Great Internet Wall of China nor the Internet Wall of N. Korea. I can't imagine Singapore getting companies who don't care about what have been posted and cite the rights to freedom of speech. -
Well, the big difference is that some of us here believe that there is a role for armchair critics. To expect people with differing comments to have to register a political party just to criticise, is laughable and simply downright presumptious. There is no place for elitist politics, same as there is no place of only parochial politics to exist by itself.We need both types to represent all spectrums of the populace.Originally posted by dualplex:When this thread was highlighted to me, its running 7 pages long. I skipped the middle 5 pages and read the first page and the last, assuming that the arguments are repeative.
The arguments are very critical, I appluad for that. However, there are things puzzling me. For one, why be so critical when all these talks are not going to affect how Singapore is run? I am not those who follows the political scene actively, but if I am not wrong, Mr Goh once did tick off Caterine (I forgot her surname), a writer for being a armchair critic. If you want to comment how the Government, Singapore is ran, don't talk from the sidelines, that was the gist of the scolding. However, for you guys, why not this. Get your butts off the chairs, eyes from the computer screens and start campaigning.
And please, when you guys start campaining, go campaign under party banners. You won't want to have 3 corner fights that results in having the PAP to have the majority, right?
By the way, there is something about how the government is going to stop people overseas to post podcasts, blogs related to the elections? Singapore don't have the famed Great Internet Wall of China nor the Internet Wall of N. Korea. I can't imagine Singapore getting companies who don't care about what have been posted and cite the rights to freedom of speech.
Inclusive nation means embracing all kinds of political commentary, from the MP all the way down to how we as men in the street discuss and comment on things that affect the nation.
Hey, at least we care enough to open our mouths and sound off. Apathy is so much worse. -
Originally posted by Fatum:
me and my camp ? .... which camp exactly do I belong to ? .... do you not think it's presumptious of you to label me ? ... and you wonder what do I mean ? ....
i quote what you wrote previously:
"... some chaps here are clearly from the opposition camp, while others simply like to engage in, what another forumer calls "mental masturbation"; .... some people like playing the intellectual rebels, engaging in pointless dialectics, these people don't really have a position at all ... they just like to oppose for the sake of opposing ......"
you have made many labellings in your short paragraph, why be so upset at being labelled when you have no qualms labelling others, whoever they might be?
so ... according to your black and white worldview, if I do not subscribe to your arguments, I am thus a goverment supporter ? ...
do not interpret my words in black and white. my reference to you as a govt supporter is merely the flip side of your labellings of others here as 'rebels', 'oppose for the sake of opposing' and 'opposition', which can be collectively termed as opposition.
this forum has a lot of promise, look at the date which I signed up, initially, I thought the internet is a free and unbridled space where people could hold honest discourses on politics and issues which affect all our lives .... the cynicism sets in very quickly however, .... I stand by my views of many of the people here, after a while, it becomes apparent that some are here with an agenda, others are here simply for the dialectic game, yet others like to play the sanctimonious intellectual rebel ... like I said, hey, it takes all sorts ..... but remember this, this is not a debating club after all, but a forum .... if people gets dilineated into black and white camps like this, is it any wonder that after a while, you'll only get to see only people with a view similar to yours ? ... birds of a feather always cluster together, no ? ... In anycase, for those people with an agenda, I'll have to say that they'll have to take care to engage people, not put people down, logic and dialectics can only get one so far, it's how you win the hearts and minds of people who are cynical and opposed to you that really matters ... for those "mental masturbators" have fun scratching yourselves .......
the Internet is free no doubt, for you as well as others to express their views. it may not be a debating club but without debates, how do you get a feel of the relative merits of alternative viewpoints? if someone presents a stronger perspective, i would say "ok, you have a point there but ..." instead of thinking "he's putting me down". and what do you mean by "mental masturbation"?
so .... people of one political persuasion cluster in one particular forum .... people of another persuasion cluster in another ... ... why not take a step back, and scroll through this forum again ? does it really much like a real discussion ? ... or does it look like a bunch of people all talking to each other's hands ? ....
"one political persuasion ... another persuasion ..." aren't you similarly categorising people?
well ... since you've labelled me first .... which category do you think you belong to ? ....
you started the labelling first but it doesn't matter. categorisation isn't impt, but merely a convenient way of addressing the overall political inclination of that person. in this respect, i have no qualms in saying i am very, very pissed with our govt. but that is not to say i am angwee with everything it has done, just that they blow their own trumpets better than anyone else and hence needs no extra trumpeting from me ...