Internet political discourse "dangerous"
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the name should be Li Ao. don't be perturbed by his remarks. he said there are only three smart fellows in singapore, LKY, LHL and Stefanie Sun. so is he saying LKY's wife is stupid? LKY's other son and daughter are also stupid? Goh Keng Swee the architect of China's economic modernisation is stupid? all our scholars who have aced top US universities are stupid? he is obviously stupid to think as such ...Originally posted by SG,LauBaiXing:Taiwaness LI HOU had just shamed our Singaporeans, I'm not angry at all with feelings in silence grievance because we really can't do anything to our ruling government for a change and benefiting our Nation and peoples as a whole. ... others will say that we're stupid and our genes is no good !
in any case, if his genes are that good, he would've been bill gates instead of Li Ao. of the many well known Li's that we all know, he is probably the least accomplished and the least endowed in both the genes as well as brains department ... -
i might if i didn't have a family ...Originally posted by dualplex:Get your butts off the chairs, eyes from the computer screens and start campaigning.
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really? ok, can try ...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Snow Leopard, you might get your points across if you can reduce the huge chunks of text in your arguments.
It's honestly quite a lot of repetitions. -
Let's not forget that forummites are only a small proportion of the entire population of this tiny island... While it is heartening to see a lot more different views coming from the forummites, I'm just stating a matter of fact, from my dealings with people around... who don't blog or posts in forums... These are the majority of the people who are born post independence, educated under the brainwashing education system and by now have commitments like a job, family, kids, elderly to take care of and doesn't want risk anything to upset the sense of equilibrium they currently enjoy.... and these constitute quite a number of the voting public.Originally posted by Atobe:There seem to be no lack of ideas in this sgForums that have yet to see any clamp being placed.
Is there any "inherent spiral of silence that everyone is so comfortable with..." ?
Can we depend on the summary of viewers - of all the threads posted and compare it with the number of responses to the various threads - to conclude this "inherent spiral of silence" ?
Is the silence due to the cynicism that is seen to be so pervasive towards those who post critical views towards the SYSTEM created by the POWER OF ONE ?
No matter how you choose to see my postings... I'm just pointing out that there will be a resilient public who doesn't want to change and doesn't want to speak up because they are all too comfortable with what they have and are given now... and to them, sacrificing that wee bit of freedom is no big deal. Go talk to 10 - 20 people who are in their 30-40s with young kids/babies at home... and see how many of them will tell you "it doesn't matter... anyway will walkover one wat" -
so true.... I think many people here would have said the same "i might if i didn't have XXXX committment..."Originally posted by snow leopard:i might if i didn't have a family ... -
The sad thing is that they don't realise that one day it might come back to affect them. There are families out there in other nations too, but the voters think of the future of their kids.Originally posted by KittynMeow:Let's not forget that forummites are only a small proportion of the entire population of this tiny island... While it is heartening to see a lot more different views coming from the forummites, I'm just stating a matter of fact, from my dealings with people around... who don't blog or posts in forums... These are the majority of the people who are born post independence, educated under the brainwashing education system and by now have commitments like a job, family, kids, elderly to take care of and doesn't want risk anything to upset the sense of equilibrium they currently enjoy.... and these constitute quite a number of the voting public.
No matter how you choose to see my postings... I'm just pointing out that there will be a resilient public who doesn't want to change and doesn't want to speak up because they are all too comfortable with what they have and are given now... and to them, sacrificing that wee bit of freedom is no big deal. Go talk to 10 - 20 people who are in their 30-40s with young kids/babies at home... and see how many of them will tell you "it doesn't matter... anyway will walkover one wat"
Perhaps working has made them only able to view things in the short term because they don't have the energy to bother about other things.
This is the crowd that has to be reached and enlightened about the state of things here. -
it's not like we have an Socrates' cave over here eh ......Originally posted by LazerLordz:The sad thing is that they don't realise that one day it might come back to affect them. There are families out there in other nations too, but the voters think of the future of their kids.
Perhaps working has made them only able to view things in the short term because they don't have the energy to bother about other things.
This is the crowd that has to be reached and enlightened about the state of things here.
I think, if you want to change change society in some ways, the first step, is to get off the idea that they are "unenlightened ", or "resistant to change", or "unaware" .... to me, that smacks of intellectual elitism ... I sense that you have some political inclination bro, ... if that's what you plan to engage in, then I suppose it's something you should try to keep in mind .... trying to persuade people over to your view point is one thing, ... thinking of oneself as a "savior" of sorts will turn people off very quickly however ... It's not good to underestimate the intellect of people of a different political viewpoint, nor think them unenlightened or unthinking .... or, like the prisoner of the cave ... you may find yourself quickly disillusioned eh ........ -
haha I get you.Originally posted by Fatum:it's not like we have an Socrates' cave over here eh ......
I think, if you want to change change society in some ways, the first step, is to get off the idea that they are "unenlightened ", or "resistant to change", or "unaware" .... to me, that smacks of intellectual elitism ... I sense that you have some political inclination bro, ... if that's what you plan to engage in, then I suppose it's something you should try to keep in mind .... trying to persuade people over to your view point is one thing, ... thinking of oneself as a "savior" of sorts will turn people off very quickly however ... It's not good to underestimate the intellect of people of a different political viewpoint, nor think them unenlightened or unthinking .... or, like the prisoner of the cave ... you may find yourself quickly disillusioned eh ........
I guess at times, the realism can give way to a sense of frustration, and that's when we all end up labelling people.
Me? Well I have my views, I'm content with throwing up ideas here and there, but in the end, what works here is working from the ground up, and I think if children are given a good well-rounded education that allows for critical thinking to flourish, that's a good start. -
If he think he so smart, he should do someting better for Taiwan n to seek better relationship with China by advising the President not to stubborn in dealingOriginally posted by snow leopard:the name should be Li Ao. don't be perturbed by his remarks. he said there are only three smart fellows in singapore, LKY, LHL and Stefanie Sun. so is he saying LKY's wife is stupid? LKY's other son and daughter are also stupid? Goh Keng Swee the architect of China's economic modernisation is stupid? all our scholars who have aced top US universities are stupid? he is obviously stupid to think as such ...
in any case, if his genes are that good, he would've been bill gates instead of Li Ao. of the many well known Li's that we all know, he is probably the least accomplished and the least endowed in both the genes as well as brains department ...
with such a big country. -
Yes, our own family have to be look after first before the country and it is a basic fundamental.Originally posted by KittynMeow:so true.... I think many people here would have said the same "i might if i didn't have XXXX committment..."
I'm now 49, the next GE I shall be reaching retirement. If there is compelling reasons in me, I will join politic for the last chapter of my life. -
you know what's really lacking on Singapore's political landscape ? ..... a middle ground .....Originally posted by LazerLordz:haha I get you.
I guess at times, the realism can give way to a sense of frustration, and that's when we all end up labelling people.
Me? Well I have my views, I'm content with throwing up ideas here and there, but in the end, what works here is working from the ground up, and I think if children are given a good well-rounded education that allows for critical thinking to flourish, that's a good start.
think about my previous posts again ... see what I've been trying to get at ? ... but then of course ... I suppose it's so easy to get frustrated when discussing politics and social issues ... I engage in regular shouting matches with those weed smoking, militant vegetarian hippie liberal arts majors at the Arts' smoking corner here too .... (those people are retarded, really, they read stories in the indy media while smoking their daily joints and think themselves superior .... see ! ... i'm doing it too ... : P)
if that middle ground is missing, we'll end up with another kind of apathy; the cynical apathy that comes with an over diversity of viewpoints, legit ideas and views will simply get swamped by with crap conspiracy theories, drama and over-sensationalism, politicians will become actors, showmen, and the whole scene a circus, this is why I champed down on CSJ and his antics.
what you said about critical thinking is a good start, another is to plant the seeds of this middle ground in politics ... a group who is not afraid to acknowledge the good that the incumbent has done, while high-lighting it's short-comings, and discussing real and viable alternatives, instead of just playing political gadflies and being ranters and complainers ... -
To SG,LauBaiXing: Your post of questions means nothing. i can come up with a list twice as long as yours for every single damn country in the world. You think only singapore is politically unfair?!
Snow Leopard:you're saying freedom of speech and the right to exert our wishes isn't achievable in any society?
i think i may have been misunderstood. i need to clarify myself (my previous post was hurried, i was rushing it after work). i meant to say my first line in response to certain peoples who seem to think that they are more capable in running singapore than the present government. i should have quoted. Apologies. My intention is not to fuck freedom of speech, hell, i wholly support our generation in exercising their rights and intellects to think for themselves. But i am questioning if it is possible to have a well-rounded, wealthy society with a total lax in the area of such. At what point do the views of people turn from suggestions into demands? Because, isnt it true that there is no point if suggestions are taken in - but nothing done about them? Do people expect something to come out from their views? Or are they just blowing hot air for the hell of it.
Listen: i think its all fine and perfectly okay if people are able to voice whatever is on their minds and such. What i am wary of is when people, who are living perfectly healthy lives try to better things around them. Ie, "PEOPLE POWER" as it is known in indonesia. It may all be in good heart, but with the lack of knowledge in the complexities of such consecution, such demands can and will cause damage.
Ok i know what the rebuttal will be. "Why let such fear come in the way of people's rights and their views?" That is why i said,Done intelligently with proper knowledge, research and a well rounded viewpoint, it can benefit a country. BUT the thing is, most complaints and ramblings are done out of boredom and childish frustration, and i find they tend to do more harm than any real good.
Just look at the majority of the forums topic in your Straits Times today. The quality is appaling. That is only one example. You may say that it is the result of the over-control of the government in reining in our views and expressions, but what i will say is that - people first need to start giving valuable, insightful and well-thought out views, only then will the government see that there is some good trains of thought out there. Perhaps then, political discourse will not be viewed with such aversion.the same can be said about Thaksin, of how he forgot that, at the end of the day, he needs to answer to the needs of the people. the more successful he became, the more carried away he became so much so that he forgot the concerns of his people and sold away the symbol of their national pride.
i still hold onto my stand that the Thai people did not make a good decision in the ousting of Thaksin. Read the artical on Thanksin in this month's Economist magazine to get an idea of why. Btw, he did not "forget" the concerns of his people. He knew exactly what he was doing - it was an opportunity to make money. And right now singapore is at the bad end of the deal (ie we've lost money!!! Haha.) Anyway. This is a real life example of the action of "people power". We'll see how this one goes. Although indonesia should already be a great example after Suharto.the same can be said about our leaders achievements. i always hear people say that they built this country, they gave us economic prosperity. but did they achieve these all by themselves? without the hardwork of us people, what could they have built? what prosperity would we have had?
i think we can call even on this one.why choose countries like india? why not choose countries like USA, switzerland, finland, australia? compared to these countries how much luckier can we get? teritary education in germany is free. here, they're jacking up fees year after year, so should i count myself unlucky instead?
This is exactly the kind of mentality that i'm talking about - the idea that theres so much lacking in singapore that people feel the need to whine. Oh and nothing is ever "free". Check the tax rates if you think so. Btw, the USA isnt much better. Ever been to lower Manhattan? Or the Bronx. Or or or... choose your pick, but please see that we are alot better off than majority of the countries in the world in terms of safety, education and standard of living. i know i sound so damn cliche and cheesy, but its true.what right do you have to brand individuals who speak up for injustice or wrong doing as being 'spoilt'? you belittle our concerns and demonstrate ignorance and haughtiness. there are certainly things we appreciate. but if these things can buy our conscience or shut us up then surely we must be spineless creatures.
Injustice, wrong-doing? Oh i've never mentioned anything at all about such unfairness, my friend. Please do not assume or put words into my post. i was referring to "nit-pickers" as you will definetely see in my original post, people who speak up for things that they know nothing logistically about.
You know, i think what got me upset the most was that reading through the thread, people seem dissatisfied and upset at the government, but for what logical reasons i do not know. The fact that blogs such as http://singabloodypore.blogspot.com/ exist already show that the government isnt as totalitarian as you have claimed. Anyways i apologise if i was unclear in my first post. It was hurried, angst-ridden and not very concise.Your arguments are all focused on 3rd World nations, sounds so much like a typical piece that is trying to scare the unwashed of Singapore about a government led by any other party.
Oh, but if you are soooo upset with our present government, why not hold a revolution? If you believe soooo much in people power? Then go form your own government with people who share your ideas via "pure democracy" (if it exists), then come back to me and let me know how your country is currently doing, if it is any better than "3rd World Nations". Ps: How do you think 3rd World Nations got like that in the first place?
What a hoot.
Oh and with reference to Cambodia, it was a rich nation. i know because i was recently there, and of course i have spoken about their history with the locals. It may not have been SUPER DUPER MEGA RICH but they were self-sufficent and a business center. And i dont understand why i cant compare our two nations. Right after WW2, we were on the same page, werent we? And Atobe, as for South Africa, Thabo Mbeki is the president, yes? Did you know that he did not win the elections fairly? And that his cabinet is highly corrupted?This is super selfishness in you if you said "no matter how corrupted or authoritive or dogmatic it may be"
Yes i am ready to discuss with an open mind. i know i am taking the difficult stand here, but i am ready to take it on
(Mind you, i do share alot of similar views with you guys.) Oh and for that particular line, i meant that if the country is still successful, the people taken care of, are happy and well fed, living comfortably... i doubt the ability of the people to form a new government that can be as successful as previous.
Just to say. i am not fanatically pro-singapore government, but i am highly appreciative of what they have done with singapore. i am against crackdowns on the views of singaporeans. If i did not believe in having freedom of speech and views, i wouldnt even be posting this :p i know the singapore government isnt right in everything, (they tend to make alot of investment mistakes too), and at some times they can be overly paranoid too. (Like i think the jail term for that guy whatshisname for showing contempt towards the court and "insulting" our judical system may have been abit harsh.) Anyway. i hope this post is more concise, i apologise for the previous unclear, angst-ridden one. -
[quote]Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
[b]To SG,LauBaiXing: Your post means nothing. i can come up with a list twice as long as yours for every single damn country in the world. You think only singapore is politically unfair?!
Hi, CaramelCrab, I'm glad you're back.
I asked you to name "Which Country" is because from here we can start our discussions, with concerns where is our merits and why it was done in such way for the benefit of good will's.
Please name one or two out of your long list for the sake of the "Singapore is Politically Unfair ?" to engage in so call, do it intelligently with our wisdom.
Please advise. -
another is to plant the seeds of this middle ground in politics ... a group who is not afraid to acknowledge the good that the incumbent has done, while high-lighting it's short-comings, and discussing real and viable alternatives, instead of just playing political gadflies and being ranters and complainers ...
Oh gawd, exactly. -
About your concern in regard "Peoples Power" is bad.Originally posted by CaramelCrab:Oh gawd, exactly.
May I ask you majority of our educated and friendly populations will going to behave like the rowdy peoples in some of our neigbouring countries ?
Do you think so ?
Please advise. -
*raise hand* me me me!!! I admit I'm some sort of a middle ground person... while I grouse at some policies I dun like, i prefer to think that there is and has been some good the current govt has done... just that i wished i could persuade more people to actually "think" about situations than just "accept" them as they come... it's not that they are not intellectual or unable to... just that they don't want to...it can get frustrating sometimes while talking to some of my colleagues about politics and trying to express an alternative point of view / option and get shot back with comments like "aiyah makes no difference" or "I dun really care" kinda statements....Originally posted by Fatum:you know what's really lacking on Singapore's political landscape ? ..... a middle ground .....
think about my previous posts again ... see what I've been trying to get at ? ... but then of course ... I suppose it's so easy to get frustrated when discussing politics and social issues ... I engage in regular shouting matches with those weed smoking, militant vegetarian hippie liberal arts majors at the Arts' smoking corner here too .... (those people are retarded, really, they read stories in the indy media while smoking their daily joints and think themselves superior .... see ! ... i'm doing it too ... : P)
if that middle ground is missing, we'll end up with another kind of apathy; the cynical apathy that comes with an over diversity of viewpoints, legit ideas and views will simply get swamped by with crap conspiracy theories, drama and over-sensationalism, politicians will become actors, showmen, and the whole scene a circus, this is why I champed down on CSJ and his antics.
what you said about critical thinking is a good start, another is to plant the seeds of this middle ground in politics ... a group who is not afraid to acknowledge the good that the incumbent has done, while high-lighting it's short-comings, and discussing real and viable alternatives, instead of just playing political gadflies and being ranters and complainers ...
and sometimes it's not just politics... it can be social issues or simply trying to encourage people to feel a little more about people around them... like the underprivileged etc... their response seems to tell me that thinking beyond their immediate needs is such a chore... it's demoralising and sad....
and basically I'm just voicing my frustration... heh -
[quote]Originally posted by CaramelCrab:
Take the recent stepping down of Thaksin. [b]My point is that the people forget how the present government, no matter how corrupted or authoritative or dogmatic it may be, actually did shit LOADS for the lives of the people. That is why the peasants supported Thaksin. The rich dont care, the rich have too much time and money on their hands and they think they have earned their wealth without any help from the government. BULLSHIT. Whatever you have right now, whatever comforts, whatever opportunities you have in your hands, YOU DID NOT EARN IT ALL BY YOURSELF. Just fucking count yourself lucky to be born in singapore where you get mandatory education. You think you will be able to live as you are right now if you were born in the poor areas of india or worse, south africa?
The Ruling Party had acknowledged the supports in all previous GE Victory from the peoples in regard "Integrity" to rule.
We had our effective policing department such as CPIB to prevent corruptions and our comfort or orderly lives shall not be taken as compromising in any bribery wrong doings, if not we will back tracking to those countries like you've accused.
Singapore is definitely not the same because our old leaders had done very much positive changes in the systems, but not the new leaders whom just like to blame our peoples for not practical enough. -
Just to say. i am not fanatically pro-singapore government, but i am highly appreciative of what they have done with singapore. i am against crackdowns on the views of singaporeans. If i did not believe in having freedom of speech and views, i wouldnt even be posting this :p i know the singapore government isnt right in everything, (they tend to make alot of investment mistakes too), and at some times they can be overly paranoid too. (Like i think the jail term for that guy whatshisname for showing contempt towards the court and "insulting" our judical system may have been abit harsh.)
I agree. Whilst the ruling party has made mistakes and I do not concur with many of its policies, on the whole, they have done a good job.
CSJ insulted the court's independence and that would have been contempt of court in any common law jurisdiction. The decision to jail him was harsh, but the judge was also right in pointing out that CSJ showed no remorse whatever.
As for paranoia, the decision to ban political podcast is not only unnecessary but appears to be politically motivated. The linking of estate upgrading to how people vote is also unfair in my opinion. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:CSJ insulted the court's independence and that would have been contempt of court in any common law jurisdiction. The decision to jail him was harsh, but the judge was also right in pointing out that CSJ showed no remorse whatever.
Is he so great? I don't even seen him as someone that can benefit us. -
Yes, agreeably CSJ does not come across as someone who will benefit the people of Singapore, but we must admit that he sure does have the GUTS to speak up so bluntly - it's like putting his head in the lion's open jaws each time he makes a comment about PAP.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I agree. Whilst the ruling party has made mistakes and I do not concur with many of its policies, on the whole, they have done a good job.
CSJ insulted the court's independence and that would have been contempt of court in any common law jurisdiction. The decision to jail him was harsh, but the judge was also right in pointing out that CSJ showed no remorse whatever.
As for paranoia, the decision to ban political podcast is not only unnecessary but appears to be politically motivated. The linking of estate upgrading to how people vote is also unfair in my opinion.
However, the ruling party being what they are, would certainly continue to do things the way they deem fit and fair. Who, are we, to say that what they do with regards to 'the decision to ban political podcast' & 'linking of estate upgrading to how people vote' is wrong and unfair???
As far as I'm concern, we're all C_ockles in the Mud. -
PAP are a bunch of F**KING gangsters who only dare to bully their own ppl and bow to foreigners like a dogs!!!The leading examples are Lee Kuan Yew,Goh Chok Tong and Lee Hsien Loong,they are one hell of a disgrace to Singaporeans,Prosecute Them!!!!
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case in point .......Originally posted by drawer:PAP are a bunch of F**KING gangsters who only dare to bully their own ppl and bow to foreigners like a dogs!!!The leading examples are Lee Kuan Yew,Goh Chok Tong and Lee Hsien Loong,they are one hell of a disgrace to Singaporeans,Prosecute Them!!!! -
Dear Drawer Sir,Originally posted by drawer:
I shared your frustrations, the electorates votes is the only way to cast away them.
Let's see what is going to turn-out this round. -
The guts part is very true.Originally posted by ShutterBug:Yes, agreeably CSJ does not come across as someone who will benefit the people of Singapore, but we must admit that he sure does have the GUTS to speak up so bluntly - it's like putting his head in the lion's open jaws each time he makes a comment about PAP.
However, the ruling party being what they are, would certainly continue to do things the way they deem fit and fair. Who, are we, to say that what they do with regards to 'the decision to ban political podcast' & 'linking of estate upgrading to how people vote' is wrong and unfair???
As far as I'm concern, we're all C_ockles in the Mud. -
totally agwee, that is my observation too. in addition, people generally do not want to stick their heads out unnecessarily, much like wildebeests in their thousands running for their own lives instead of helping their fellow kind caught in the lion's jaws ...Originally posted by KittynMeow:Let's not forget that forummites are only a small proportion of the entire population of this tiny island... While it is heartening to see a lot more different views coming from the forummites, I'm just stating a matter of fact, from my dealings with people around... who don't blog or posts in forums... These are the majority of the people who are born post independence, educated under the brainwashing education system and by now have commitments like a job, family, kids, elderly to take care of and doesn't want risk anything to upset the sense of equilibrium they currently enjoy.... and these constitute quite a number of the voting public.
No matter how you choose to see my postings... I'm just pointing out that there will be a resilient public who doesn't want to change and doesn't want to speak up because they are all too comfortable with what they have and are given now... and to them, sacrificing that wee bit of freedom is no big deal. Go talk to 10 - 20 people who are in their 30-40s with young kids/babies at home... and see how many of them will tell you "it doesn't matter... anyway will walkover one wat"