Were the young rude to MM?
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Originally posted by BillyBong:
naive?
No politician serves himself for dinner on a plate.
All politicians have their own agenda; Lee Senior doubtless had his reasons for offering himself at a forum. Whether it was to get a feel of the under-30 educated class or to drive home the message that voting for PAP is essential, it doesn't matter.
It's simply naive to think someone as experienced as MM Lee would 'accept the offer to come on national TV to have this talk' because he felt obliged to do so.
And as far as comments go, the best people can do is stay objective. There will always be those who side with the critics and those who insist that the forum was fair and respectful.
Only conservatives would enshrine MM Lee to such an extent that to [b]ask any tough question would be viewed as a sign of blatant disrespect. [/b]
i dun have any problems with that. sure, i'll take it with a pinch of salt.
nobody say that the younger generation cannot ask tough questions and if asking these 'tough' questions will lead to and viewed as a sign of blatant disrespect. it is How and the Delivery Method (along with the Attitude) that makes one viewed that and having a reaction to them as being rude.
perhaps being rude is ok with the younger generation? so does shouting to your parents not equate to being rude? of course they were not shouting at the MM...anyway perhaps the best is to ask yourself what is considered rude in the first place (or u might want to ask your mum?). this is jia jiao. bo dua bo suay.
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I hardly think that either party was rude or arrogant. I felt that they spoke to each other as equals. Those that complain that MM Lee didn't provide direct answers to the queries, you will usually find such sort of things happening at public forums or any Q&A sessions. It is not the fault of the respondent to answer that way.
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oh well then lets put it down as differences in opinions towards whether the person should be revered and how the person should be spoken to.Originally posted by tiggersgd:naive? i dun have any problems with that. sure, i'll take it with a pinch of salt.
nobody say that the younger generation cannot ask tough questions and if asking these 'tough' questions will lead to and viewed as a sign of blatant disrespect. it is How and the Delivery Method (along with the Attitude) that makes one viewed that and having a reaction to them as being rude.
perhaps being rude is ok with the younger generation? so does shouting to your parents not equate to being rude? of course they were not shouting at the MM...anyway perhaps the best is to ask yourself what is considered rude in the first place (or u might want to ask your mum?). this is jia jiao. bo dua bo suay. -
at least in the courtroom you have a judge presiding over the case and keep counsels in check if they go overboard. the word 'dialogue' should suggest an amiable conversation and tone down the aggression.Originally posted by Nelstar:Barristers are the most horrible lot.
As MM Lee is a practitioner of the law, he basically cuts in, shoots, and dissect the young ones with all his experience as a lawyer, a solicitor, a barrister, the wrong words, phrases used.
The young attempts to question without basis and the old one puts them to the blade.
Felt like a courtroom battle with no judge running it.
Did MM Lee gave the young ones enough time to put forward statements to strengthen their stand? Did the young ones give MM Lee ample time to reflect before dropping another question?
Er.. both sides ought to be hung and shot. They both treated each other with contempt. The young ones too eager to just make the MM kick the bucket, the old one trying to make the young ones foolish. -
To some extent, i'll accept that the younger people do appear bolder, less restrained and more impulsive. But at any time during the forum did they express themselves rudely?Originally posted by tiggersgd:How and the Delivery Method (along with the Attitude) that makes one viewed that and having a reaction to them as being rude.
perhaps being rude is ok with the younger generation? so does shouting to your parents not equate to being rude? of course they were not shouting at the MM...anyway perhaps the best is to ask yourself what is considered rude in the first place (or u might want to ask your mum?). this is jia jiao. bo dua bo suay.
Absolutely not. In fact, Lee Senior had a field day cutting through their questions simply because he already knew the answer and had formed his own impression without further ellaboration.
Aloof and arrogant. Now isn't that dismissive attitude more condescending?
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In fact, as a general question: what exactly or how exactly did the youths present themselves to draw the flak of being 'rude' and disrespectful' in the first place?
I watched both telecasts on CNA and i never thought the forum was at any point disorderly. All the letters written to ST Forum merely chide the 10 youths as 'rude' or lacking in respect but was unfinished in their specifics; then in typical and unoriginal fashion, the writers proceeded to discuss the past exploits of the MM and what he did for the country. -
do you think some of the letters were scripted by the pap/government??Originally posted by BillyBong:In fact, as a general question: what exactly or how exactly did the youths present themselves to draw the flak of being 'rude' and disrespectful' in the first place?
I watched both telecasts on CNA and i never thought the forum was at any point disorderly. All the letters written to ST Forum merely chide the 10 youths as 'rude' or lacking in respect but was unfinished in their specifics; then in typical and unoriginal fashion, the writers proceeded to discuss the past exploits of the MM and what he did for the country. -
No idea. But i cannot allow myself to be swayed into believing that the propaganda machine is so ellaborate. The same way i refuse to believe the conspiracy theory that the numbered votes are part of a tracking system designed to weed out dissidents.Originally posted by hisoka:do you think some of the letters were scripted by the pap/government??
Then again....
Well if they thought that was rude, how would they view BBC's Hard Talk? -
actually i have no idea what to think about the trackign system.Originally posted by BillyBong:No idea. But i cannot allow myself to be swayed into believing that the propaganda machine is so ellaborate. The same way i refuse to believe the conspiracy theory that the numbered votes are part of a tracking system designed to weed out dissidents.
Then again....
Well if they thought that was rude, how would they view BBC's Hard Talk?
the way they carry it out, there is a very real possibility of tracking. and the excuse of how to differentiate real from fake votes is like so dumb. -
I'm not sure how it works myself but i was under the impression it should be a transparent system?Originally posted by hisoka:actually i have no idea what to think about the trackign system.
the way they carry it out, there is a very real possibility of tracking. and the excuse of how to differentiate real from fake votes is like so dumb.
Anyhow, the method can be altered to ensure the person is not paired to the number but the vote is still legitimate.
Just register the person's IC, then let the person pick a random vote from the tray. No way is the conspiracy theory of tracking a person thru the serial number going work then. -
yupz. or just do somethign like the money notes. no serial number needed.Originally posted by BillyBong:I'm not sure how it works myself but i was under the impression it should be a transparent system?
Anyhow, the method can be altered to ensure the person is not paired to the number but the vote is still legitimate.
Just register the person's IC, then let the person pick a random vote from the tray. No way is the conspiracy theory of tracking a person thru the serial number going work then.
i don't think anythign in sg is really transparent anyway too bad.... -
Extract from Channelnewsasia Site
"In the face of youthful fire, a lesson in politics" by : Lee Ching Wern, TODAY - Date : 13 Apr 2006 1113 hrs (GMT + 8hrs)
Was it not supposed to be a "NO HOLDS BARRED DISCUSSION" ?
No topic was out of bounds, no question was too impudent.
A man whose sharp intellect has silenced opponents for decades in Parliament - a leader whose no nonsense image has unnerved many over the decades - sat across 10 young Singaporeans and heard them rant about their frustrations with a Government that they said controls too much and their indignation over a political field that did not appear to be level.
In a forum aired on Channel NewsAsia on Wednesday night, Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew was asked questions that were blunt and candid to a degree rarely seen here.
How could an election which is largely uncontested be deemed a mandate for the ruling party? Is his a party of bullies? Are they arrogant? Does he still pull the strings in the Government led by his son, Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong?
This reporter was one of the 10 Singaporeans - all below the age of 30 - who quizzed Mr Lee on questions often whispered but rarely asked of him.
We vented our frustrations on issues like fairness and unfairness - like why Opposition wards were not entitled to upgrading funds and how the GRC system made it so difficult for the Opposition to win.
Mr Lee, on the other hand, gave us a tutorial on the reality of politics and the meaning of governance.
"There is no level playing field of any government helping opposition to win votes," he said.
His point was simple. He was not against Singapore having an opposition.
In fact, opposition could never really be eliminated. "But the Opposition we have now is not up to the mark."
But with a system that favours the ruling party, could Singapore get rid of a rogue PAP government if the party turned bad down the road?
"Once the PAP goes soft, it will be displaced," said Mr Lee. Then, a group of capable people with a proven track record could form a strong opposition and make their mark.
But the ruling party had no intention of letting matters drift to a point where people reached that level of unhappiness. As for GRCs, they were the only way to ensure the representation of minorities and women.
Again, the meaning of politics resonated through the dialogue.
While we spoke about civil liberties, elections and opposition, MM Lee made it a point to stress that politics went beyond just these.
He said: "You assume the politics is about elections and election contests. I do not see it that way."
He cited a definition of politics found in an American dictionary, which describes politics as the "art or science of governance of a country".
"Translated into real terms it means how my life is affected by the Government. Do I have a job? Do I have a home? ... Is there a future for my children? If you do not have any of these things, you are going to find agitation," said Mr Lee.
He explained how in the 50s and 60s, Singapore was in a state of agitation every day, with strikes, riots, homelessness, and unemployment.
"Today, over 40 years, we have transformed it assiduously because we attended to the politics of life. That's what it's about.
"What is the future? If you can have another political party to look after you the way PAP has, I say, my job is done, finished. I can go home and sit back and read the books I want to read," said Mr Lee.
At the end of the dialogue, he explained to us why he wanted to speak to us.
"Why am I talking to you? Because I think it is necessary for people like you and your generation to understand this is not a business of just voting or not voting.
"Politics has got to do with your life, your job, your home, your Medicare, our children's future," said Mr Lee. /ra TODAY
Did MM LKY's reply : "If I AM ARROGANT WOULD I BE TALKING TO YOUR ? " - give any answer to the question asked ?
Was this reply by itself the culmination of the arrogrance displayed towards the amateurish questions that were sheepishly, half-heartedly and caustiously made out by the young reporters ?
Watching this interview repeated over Channel News Asia from overseas was simply too embarrassing.
It was like having the retired Heavy Weight Champion Muhammad Ali - coming out of retirement to give a demonstration fight with some light weight enthusiast still learning the ropes of how to -
"Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee".
"There is no level playing field of any government helping opposition to win votes,"
No DEMOCRATIC Country will allow its Government to legislate new laws that make ineffective the Constitutions that give political rights to the Citizens.
The level playing field is guaranteed in the Constitution and it is the duty of the Government to ensure that the Citizens are given access to that playing field.
"Politics has got to do with your life, your job, your home, your Medicare, our children's future,"
Is Politics merely about jobs, home, Medicare or more about OUR FUTURE and that of OUR Children ?
What FUTURE is there when everyone is a SLAVE TO A SYSTEM DOMINATED BY THE POWER OF ONE, and one's FUTURE is dependant on the generosity from this POWER OF ONE ? -
That Dialogue - were we rude or .....?
Out of 10, 1 was away and 2 wanted to shy the limelight -
that whole programme of interviewing the group on Channel News Asia is utter rubbish. the journalist made their views known and it was aggressive. whatz so rude about that exactly? were they expected to kiss LKY's feet or something? ive seen interview of politicians on channels in London and the US. the questioning LKY received was very gentle. it was no big deal. Lots of other issues were not raised with LKY. A foreign journalist would have given LKY a hard time on the chair.
the singaporean journalist questioning was nothing. -
the girl in green spoke a lot while the others didn't speak up as much.
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The 10 journalists in the recent dialogue session with MM Lee were interviewed with Diana Ser tonight (20.4.2006) over CNA.
They have clarified the following views about that dialogue:
(1) What they want is choice.
(2) The older leaders always fear riots but there could be improvements without riots.
(3) The older leaders should not keep making comparison with countries with chaos. Why not compare with smaller countries in Europe which practise democracy and yet achieve progress without chaos.
(4) If leaders cannot change and cannot think out of the older mindset, who knows what will happen to the party 10 years down.
It is good to know there are young people today who understand the need to have choice or change for improvements to the autocratic one-man-knows-all system.
The reality of today's politics sadly is that our older leaders are dominating politics with the same older unchanging mindset based on paranoid that the country will be in chaos if they allow any choices or change of mindset.
Up to now even as PM Lee is trying to espouse openness and inclusiveness there is no sign there is any real change to MM Lee's past policies as expressed in that young people forum.
What then should the journalists or people do to create choice or cause change? Is there likelihood of change 12 years after GCT or say 5 years after LHL?
I think what the journalists have produced are not substantial to convince MM Lee to change. If they want to change they must stand for election and swing 10-20 percents of the votes from PAP then MM Lee will change. For now and many years ahead he would just stick to his old mindset and wait.
To MM Lee's way of thinking, it is too risky to change and there will be chaos unless he through PAP continues to hold powers for sometime and let people approve of all his past policies. Let us consider the following facts to see for yourself whether MM Lee will change?
(1) There is no such thing as fairness or government being fair to opposition.
(2) If necessary he will be unfair by amending the constitution on freedom of expression or the one-man-one-vote system to hold on to power.
(3) It is not his job to serve anyone not loyal to PAP and will not grant HDB estate upgrading fund to the opposition's wards even if its means going against rule of law and discriminating against citizens who pay the same tax
(4) He will not acknowledge there is high cost of living or dropping wages as he could always make comparison with worse countries to answer to such problems. Even if GLC or HDB are overcharging on land or fixed asset costs and when in Aug 2006 the bus operators' application for fare increases come up for review after posting it due to election, he might just give it approval for another round of fare increases even if the bus operators continue to make good profits.
(5) His judgments on all the major policies have been correct and infallible unless there are people who could stand election in GRC and deny him of votes.
(6) Despite the wrongs found in NKF, the government will not admit any mistakes were caused or condoned by the ministers or his government and when he simply denied it with some reluctant actions against Durai, there is nothing the citizens can do to pin him down for mistakes.
(7) Temasek will not be run with the kind of accountability and transparency as recommended by ex-president Ong Teng Cheong or anyone as he prefers to run it the way he chooses. -
The Media is just trying to make a molehole out of the issue.
The focus of the Dialogue should be the question asked and the replies given.
The time and effort taken in making the program shows the immaturity of the media in handling political issues.
Too much attention is given to the way the questions were posted instead of the content of the Dialogue.
The initial intention of the Dialogue was wasted and they have wasted the precious time of the youth and MM Lee.
It is sad to say that the general crowd, both young and old, are too concerned about the cosmetic nature of politics and remain stupid about resolving the important issues. -
It served its purpose....divert attentionOriginally posted by Medicated Oil:The Media is just trying to make a molehole out of the issue.
The focus of the Dialogue should be the question asked and the replies given.
The time and effort taken in making the program shows the immaturity of the media in handling political issues.
Too much attention is given to the way the questions were posted instead of the content of the Dialogue.
The initial intention of the Dialogue was wasted and they have wasted the precious time of the youth and MM Lee.
It is sad to say that the general crowd, both young and old, are too concerned about the cosmetic nature of politics and remain stupid about resolving the important issues.
On another thought...it's a wonder why the producers did not put in a moderator to help prevent the questions from rapidly fired @ MM...? -
<"Politics has got to do with your life, your job, your home, your Medicare, our children's future," said Mr Lee. /ra TODAY>
well said, well said!
I feel like a 2nd class citizen in my own country.
As a general manager of an IT company I have now become a taxi driver.
My 5-room flat which was worth $430k in 1997 has now depreciated to $290k.
I'll rather die than to fall sick as the medicare costs have escalated so much.
My children's future? I don't see any that's why I dare not have any kid! -
cmon... if he wanna hav dialogue wif young pple, he shld b able 2 understand how young pple express themselves... i find them 2 b spontaneous n active... rude? not very... 2 b fair they were a bit kan cheong at times so 2 other pple it might seem as a rude gesture... but would he rather hav pple seeing him engage youngsters who will jus gong gong sit there n let him fire away?
lau lee was not exactly rude lah... he was jus 2 authoritative n demanding n strong n pressuring in his attack on e young respondents who wanted so very much 2 address them views.... by shutting pple up n telling pple 2 listen 2 him (oh almighty one) is not rude at all, it is wat is expected of a lawyer by training who will make sure u chui ta lan when u utter a small mistake in ur speech...
talk abt for e good of e pple...
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i suspect they are trying to build a personality cult for MM Lee.Originally posted by Medicated Oil:The Media is just trying to make a molehole out of the issue. -
2nd generation citizens in their 40s who are more conservative, traditional or old fashioned some might say will find the youths rude, disrespectful.
but on the other hand, 3rd generation youths below 30s will think otherwise. it's actually a good thing we have youths that are not afraid to sound out their thoughts and question the authorities. isn't this what we want our youths to be? to show more concern in politics, things that will affect their lives, their future? -
stereotyping...Originally posted by Gordonator:2nd generation citizens in their 40s who are more conservative, traditional or old fashioned some might say will find the youths rude, disrespectful.
but on the other hand, 3rd generation youths below 30s will think otherwise. it's actually a good thing we have youths that are not afraid to sound out their thoughts and question the authorities. isn't this what we want our youths to be? to show more concern in politics, things that will affect their lives, their future? -
I certainly hope that they were rude to him because I did not bother to watch.
It will show every body that like all of us, he eat siht fcuk and scratch his balls once in a while... -
you know what the older generation will tell you?Originally posted by Gordonator:2nd generation citizens in their 40s who are more conservative, traditional or old fashioned some might say will find the youths rude, disrespectful.
but on the other hand, 3rd generation youths below 30s will think otherwise. it's actually a good thing we have youths that are not afraid to sound out their thoughts and question the authorities. isn't this what we want our youths to be? to show more concern in politics, things that will affect their lives, their future?
the younger generation has never tasted hardship. thats why they are not afraid to say and do things as they like.