PM Lee, MM Lee demand apology from SDP for NKF remarks
-
not that SJis wrong in his comments in the papers but he should not have openly done that in the public. this period is very sensitive.
be smart and learn from other oppositions -
In the Singapore system, many times, the people who have the money to buy expert witnesses, but lawyers to do legal research, buy investigators to find "evidence" win. Nothing to do with the truth or untruth in the matter. So I agree with what you wrote above.Originally posted by thinkoutofthebox:See the parallels or similarities between Durai's initial lawsuits against the 2 ex-employees of NKF and this new pap lawsuit against the SDP.
In the NKF cases, the ex employees of NKF both lost because they were denied access to information and evidence, not because they were wrong. They were eventually proved right. In fact they did not even lose but just settled out of court due to lack of financial resources.
Durai was able to win due to a lack of transparency and accountability which prevented access to information and also because of his strong financial strength..
Durai also employed the tactics of silencing and intimidation through defamation lawsuits.And now we see the Pap doing exactly the same thing as Durai,ie using defamation lawsuits to try to silence the opposition.
Clearly, justice was denied in the NKF case due to the lack of transparency and accountability. Without this, how can the public be sure that the suing party is right even if they win in court?
A victory in court doesn't imply that the truth and justice has prevailed. Only transparency and accountability can do that.
And how does the SDP get the evidence when the accounts of Temasek are so secretive and evasive...????????Why does the pap not open the account book of Temasek wide open to prove that there are really no hanky panky...??????Why so afraid....?????Who is playing the cat and mouse game here in this case..???????And by the way,the SDP did not say that Temasek is corrupted but they only ask that the Pap be more transparent regarding the accounts of Temasek so as not to follow the bad example of NKF.Anything wrong with that request...??? -
so smart and young Singaporean knows who to choose.
-
That's right.Go buy the newspaper with with an open mind.Read the articles and then compare with what the straits times and the pap said regarding defamation.Then make your own decision regarding who is really telling the truth.Even people who are pro-paps should go buy the newspaper and read it for themselves.Don't just think that something is black just because the pap said that it is.Go see for yourself and you may be surprised that what you thought was black is actually pure white. If you are not doing it for your country at least do it for yourself and for your children's future.
-
You signed on just to post this?Originally posted by thinkoutofthebox:That's right.Go buy the newspaper with with an open mind.Read the articles and then compare with what the straits times and the pap said regarding defamation.Then make your own decision regarding who is really telling the truth.Even people who are pro-paps should go buy the newspaper and read it for themselves.Don't just think that something is black just because the pap said that it is.Go see for yourself and you may be surprised that what you thought was black is actually pure white. If you are not doing it for your country at least do it for yourself and for your children's future.
Anyhow, regarding your views on the NKF-PAP parallels, it has long been established by many other people well before you came to this conclusion.
So this is nothing new. -
this is something that can be predicted but did not know so early
-
yeah what sort of income do you have to base such judgement? Are our kids world class citizens or quiters? what is life when ministers pay themselves millions of dollars and you don't have a right of choice? Has PAP created a livable society for singaporeans or foreigners? Ask yourself!Originally posted by enginboi:people uprise when their life is affected, not when you hav a stable income and a house to go back to, with no worries for three meals, children with good schools, enrichment classes, tuitions, and have streets safe to walk on even at night....so wat civil rights do you wan??? an opposition that just defame the government without solid evidence?? i dun mind having an opposition, but the real jobs of these people is to come up with solid plans for the better of singapore and solve practical problems, not going around saying wat is no good or wat wrong did the government do...
you wan democracy?? just look at taiwan, they have plenty of oppositions that claims to fight for democracy...they even fight in the parliament for you to see. and have you any idea how much bad debt does taiwan have?? give you a clue, it is in mulitples of billions. And do you know how much reserves does singapore have??? ever wonder how did singapore survive the asian financial crisis??? so you prefer to have more rights or you prefer to hav no job tomorrow?? wake up your idea!!!! -
Did the SDP and / or CSJ defamed by speaking lies about the Government and the NKF saga ?
Considering that the KPMG report had been published and clearly pinned some of the blame on the Government and its MINISTRIES (How many? ) - is there defamation ?
Here is a short extract from Sintercom
Dereliction of Duty?
Some government agencies are notoriously known to be bureaucratic and inefficient but now they seem to be worse. They could be guilty of dereliction of duty.
The KPMG audit report on NKF showed that for the past 7 years several agencies and ministries were aware of the irregularities in NKF but none had the appetite to take on the NKF. They were either cowed by NKF's bullying behaviour or simply did not have the sense of duty to stop the misuse of public donations.
The National Council of Social Service (NCSS) and Ministry of Health (MOH), who had been the Central Fund Administrator (one that approves a charity's ability to collect tax-exempt donations) of NKF, reportedly attempted to have meetings with NKF to verify their concerns over its operations. But these meetings were later stopped after NKF browbeaten one for "attacking its integrity" and sidelined the representative of the other. -
Article #1: I don't find it defamatory at all!!
Government's role in the NKF scandal
Ministers went out their way to defend NKF even as people were unhappy over the organisationÂ’s operations
In all the hand-wringing and breast-beating by the Government over the NKF issue, Singaporeans must not lose sight of one thing: Such a scandal is inevitable given the kind of secretive and non-accountable system, bred by the PAP.
The Government now tries to exonerate itself by playing the innocent and gullible party duped by greedy NKF officials.
It forgets that in April 2004, Minister Khaw Boon Wan had, in reaction to public unease about the NKF, sought to appease Singaporeans by telling them that the Ministry of Finance “would have reacted many years ago” if there was any breach of rules by the NKF. (See Channel News Asia report on right.)
At the same time the Second Minister for Finance, Mr Lim Hng Kiang, said that the NKF had “quite a sound record” because it spends “ore than 80 percent of its funds on its beneficiaries” (See Straits Times report on right) whom we now know are not kidney patients.
Clearly, alarm bells were raised. People could see that something was wrong and they had expressed their unhappiness over the years.
And yet, the Government which had the power to do something, chose not to.
Not only did it choose not to rein in NKF but it also continued to praise the charity and encouraged people to donate to it.
With assurances from not one but two Ministers, the charity went on its merry way.
The question that is on everyoneÂ’s lips is: If Mr TT Durai had not taken out the legal suit, would the Government have bothered to look into the NKF records? NKF would in all likelihood have continued to operate with the GovernmentÂ’s blessings.
The NKF fiasco is not about bad practices. It is not even about negligence on the GovernmentÂ’s part.
It is about greed and power.
It is about the idea that the political elite must be paid top dollar, no matter how obscene those amounts are and regardless of who suffers as a result of it.
It is about a system engineered over the decades by the PAP that ensures that it and only it has access to public information and by fiat decides what is allowed and what is not.
It is about what a “democratic society, based on justice and equality” should not be.
Singaporeans must note that the NKF is not an aberration of the PAP system. It is, instead, a product of it.
To ensure that there is transparency and that Singaporeans are kept informed of matters directly affecting them and their future, the Government must:
One, disclose the breakdown of the cost of building HDB flats and the profits HDB makes.
Two, reveal where and how GIC uses our savings.
Three, disclose the salaries of the top executives of Temasek Holdings and other GLCs.
Four, declare the assets and incomes of its Ministers.
Five, reform the election system to ensure that it is free and fair.
It goes without saying that someone must be held accountable over the sordid NKF affair. However, real accountability starts much higher up. -
Article #2: Tell me whats defamatory about this?
It is impossible not to notice the striking resemblance between how the NKF operated and how the PAP runs . It would take someone foolishly blind not to be concerned with how our financial reserves and CPF savings are dealt with. Here are the similarities.
Mind Boggling salaries
Mr Durai was paid $50,000 a month. He charged an average of almost $33,000 a month to his corporate credit card.
He was paid overtime and given backdated salary increments. His leave that was not taken were converted to cash.
And yet, Mrs Goh Chok Tong, in all her wisdom, brushed these aside and defended Mr Durai saying that his salary of $600,000 is “peanuts”.
Compare this to what her husband, Mr Goh, said when the prime minister wanted to pay himself $160,000 a month and the ministers $120,000 a month: “You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.”
Peanuts seem to be a rather popular plant in PAP circles.
Mr Durai had apparently forgotten that his job was to help people stricken with kidney disease, not to enrich himself.
If he wanted to earn the kind of salaries that corporate managers earned he should join a business enterprise whose mission is to maximize profit, not a charitable organization like the NKF whose mission is to provide medical assistance to those who unfortunate enough to need it.
Again, how is this different from the ministers who claim that without the high salaries, they would not have the incentive to serve in the cabinet?
The simple answer is: There will be others who are no less capable, and even more dedicated, willing to serve this country.
Like Mr Durai, the ministers cannot claim that they deserve to get the mind-boggling salaries because of the work they do, especially when their performances have been questionable given the hardships that Singaporeans continue to have to face in todayÂ’s high cost.
Lack of transparency
Right up till Mr DuraiÂ’s ill-fated court room appearance, few people knew about the shenanigans that were going on within NKF.
Everything was shrouded in secrecy until the jaw-dropping revelations recorded in the KPMG audit.
How does this compare to the PAP? The Government of Singapore Investment Corporation (GIC) is a business entity set up, and chaired by Mr Lee Kuan Yew to manage and invest our national reserves.
Incredibly, the GIC will not give an account of its investments (how and where our money is invested, and the profit/losses they record) to the people. Even Parliament is not privy to the information. The GIC operates in secrecy.
The HDB is no better. It continues to stonewall longstanding questions about the actual cost of building the flats and the profits it makes when it sells these flats to the people.
What about the CPF? Many Singaporeans are still concerned that the Fund is broke and that is the reason why the Government comes up with all these schemes to retain our CPF savings even when we retire.
Defamation suits
Singaporeans have know this for a long time but it needed the NKF scandal to drive home the point: The use, or rather abuse, of defamation laws in this country has led to a situation where wrong-doings cannot be exposed.
Two Singaporeans, Mr Archie Ong and Ms Tan Kiat Noi, had raised the alarm on the abuses of NKF funds, accusing NKF officials of paying themselves obscenely high salaries and bonuses, and flying first class on business trips.
Mr TT Durai promptly smacked them with lawsuits.
Unable to fight the huge sums of money involved in a defamation suit, Mr Ong and Ms Tan capitulated and settled the case out-of-court, both having to pay damages and costs amounting to tens of thousands of dollars. This happened in 1997 and 1998.
This had the effect of silencing all critics of NKF.
It wasnÂ’t until 2005 that Mr TT Durai decided to sue the Straits Times for making similar accusations against the NKF.
The difference was that this time, the Straits Times had deeper pockets than the NKF and could contest the suit all the way.
The truth spilled out and we now know that NKF officials had not only flown first class and paid themselves bonuses of up to 14 months, (not to mention Mr DuraiÂ’s $600,000 slalary) but had also installed gold-plated taps, bought a fleet of luxury cars, and took trips to !
In other words, Mr Ong and Ms Tan were right. The only thing they were guilty of was that they were not rich enough to fight Mr Durai in court.
Does this remind you of the PAP?
Its officials, strarting from Mr Lee Kuan Yew on down, regularly sue their political opponents.
The cases of Mr J B Jeyaretnam, Mr Tang Liang Hong, and Dr Chee Soon Juan are just a few examples.
Authoritarian control
It is obvious now that the NKF was run in an autocratic manner. The KPMG report said: “Power was centred around one man, and was exercised in an ad-hoc manner through Mr Durai and his coterie of long serving assistants.”
Is not power in centred around one party, if not one individual?
With the PAP monopolizing power and making sure that no one has the means to challenge that hold on power (by banning protests, introducing GRCs, suing political opponents, making legitimate democratic actions criminal offences, etc.) are we not witnessing the NKF but on a larger and national scale?
If there is a lesson that the NKF fiasco has taught us, it is that good governance cannot do without democratic practices which include openness, transparency and accountability.
The use of the media
It would have been impossible for the NKF to raise the kind of money they did if it werenÂ’t for the use of MediaCorp to stage all the charity shows and using teary-eyed artistes to pull at the heart-strings of donors.
With control of the media, the PAP Government has likewise been able to present good news to the people and take credit for them (justified or not), hide the bad news, and portray the opposition in the most undesirable light possible.
Again, without a free media to expose the excesses of the Government, Singaporeans will never know what is going behind the scenes and officials like Mr Durai and the PAP will continue to use their “victorious” lawsuits as a measure of competence and absence of wrongdoing. -
So are you saying singapore is not a livable society for local singaporeans?? are you living in the drain or something?? dun be ridiculous, if you are capable of even thinking wat style of food do you want to eat for dinner later, you din even realise that you are better than billions others that dun even have anything to eat??? Singaporean have one of the better living conditions when compared to the best of the world. In united staes, a first world county, 70 million people, mostly blacks, stays in poverty with no water and electricity, this is a fact that emerge after the recent Hurricane Katrina hit USA, leaving alot of these people..dead. Whether you are able to compare with foreign talents is another issue all together. If you cant match their ability then you blame the government?? Blame yourself for not studying hard!!!! not everyone is equal, not everyone can live in luxury. this is a meritocratic society where the people with the best abilities gets the best, but overall i would say most of the citizens including the poor are well taken care of.Originally posted by katatonic:yeah what sort of income do you have to base such judgement? Are our kids world class citizens or quiters? what is life when ministers pay themselves millions of dollars and you don't have a right of choice? Has PAP created a livable society for singaporeans or foreigners? Ask yourself! -
i think the government biggest mistake is to make the people so dependant on the government....making people like you!!! that blames the government for thier failure...like wat some have said.....when americans live ina foriegn country, they come together to build a school, when singaporean live aborad, they write to the government to build the school for them. Please, you are responsible for your own fate, your own living conditions, your own wealth, not the government.Originally posted by katatonic:yeah what sort of income do you have to base such judgement? Are our kids world class citizens or quiters? what is life when ministers pay themselves millions of dollars and you don't have a right of choice? Has PAP created a livable society for singaporeans or foreigners? Ask yourself! -
Precisely. Just as we are not obliged to keep cabinet members in the lap of luxury by paying that gross amounts of money. How much? Nobody's telling!Originally posted by enginboi:i think the government biggest mistake is to make the people so dependant on the government....making people like you!!! that blames the government for thier failure...like wat some have said.....when americans live ina foriegn country, they come together to build a school, when singaporean live aborad, they write to the government to build the school for them. Please, you are responsible for your own fate, your own living conditions, your own wealth, not the government.
The government has lost its way. Long ago, LKY took the approach that nobody owes anyone a living. But today, it seems that does not apply to the government! -
Please be reminded that quoting a defamatory remark posted on a different website here may render you and the administrator of this website liable for damages as well.
A number of forumners here also ought to read up a little on the law... -
In the first place the article is not even deflamatory so what's there to sue.??????I believe the main purpose of the suit is to not allow Singaporeans to read the article and to censor any articles that the pap does not like.
Like me,most people could not find anything defamatory at all in the articles inside the SDP newsletter.In fact the points in the articles were exactly what many Singaporeans would like to ask and question the pap government and if the whole population read the articles I am very very sure they would start questioning the Pap and that I believe is the real reason why the pap start this defamation suit to silence the SDP and muzzle them.
Maybe the Pap are so afraid that their lawyers even claim that it is defamation if you after reading the newspaper you pass it to your spouse who then read it.This is really ridiculous.Who is the Pap trying to bullshit...??????Citizens are no more like those of the 1960's who are uneducated or lowly educated and easily conned.This is really a very obvious attempt by the pap to stop the citizens from knowing the truth .Why not just let the citizens read it for themselves and decide for themselves whether they agree with it or not since I don't see anything defamatory inside at all.??????Does the citizens of Singapore need the Pap to tell them what they can read and what they can't.IN my opinion this is another attempt by the pap to muzzle free speech and it goes against the constitution which says that citizens have the right to freedom of speech and especially when most people don't see any defamation at all in the articles. -
If you've noticed, the article was quoted around the world through newsfeeds, and every press release by the SDP has outranked in numbers any PAP rebuttal going by the collation of headlines by international wire feeds.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Please be reminded that quoting a defamatory remark posted on a different website here may render you and the administrator of this website liable for damages as well.
A number of forumners here also ought to read up a little on the law...
Quoting and abetting are slightly different, and different jurisdictions have differing interpretations on defamation.Some might not even see the light in the jurisdiction concerned..
Let's not bother about this mountain made from a molehill, and enjoy the fact that Arsenal is in the European Cup final at last..politics? Bah. -
Actually, he's right that repeating or publishing defamatory material can cause liability to arise as well. IIRC, on a webpage, each view is counted as one instance of defamation? Might be wrong though.Originally posted by LazerLordz:If you've noticed, the article was quoted around the world through newsfeeds, and every press release by the SDP has outranked in numbers any PAP rebuttal going by the collation of headlines by international wire feeds.
Quoting and abetting are slightly different, and different jurisdictions have differing interpretations on defamation.Some might not even see the light in the jurisdiction concerned..
Let's not bother about this mountain made from a molehill, and enjoy the fact that Arsenal is in the European Cup final at last..politics? Bah.
Re Football...why would anyone be interested in following the (enormous) fortunes, egoes, trials and tribulations of groups of overpaid, overidolised, overexposed, underacheving bunch of bums kicking a ball around an oversized lawn. I was a fan once though. Until they started talking about xfer fees that topped £10m. Then although I still had interest, it lay solely in the gambling side of football.
And Oxford Mushroom, you seem to have this habit of leaving forumers in suspense.
i recall you posting a message to the effect of some people in the forums are making defamatory remarks and had to be pressed before you deigned to offer some clues about who you are referring to.
In your last post, you say that some need to read up on the law, but again, you end on a cliffhanger! If you think that the articles posted are defamatory, then out with it! You are not, after all, writing a drama serial here! -
You guys have to look at the OM vs Heng@ debates if you want more fun.
But there is more excitement to come after the GE. Liverpool will square off with West Ham in the FA Cup finals a week later. -
Is there any LAW existing in Singapore - when issues are interpreted and extended in the wildest possible way, as in the manner that the POWER OF ONE wishes, and the Judiciary to be "persuaded" by the POWER OF ONE to see in the same light ?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Please be reminded that quoting a defamatory remark posted on a different website here may render you and the administrator of this website liable for damages as well.
A number of forumners here also ought to read up a little on the law...
How did the brilliant minds of the POWER OF ONE - all put together - managed to interpret that the article printed in the SDP papers had made direct reference to the PM and MM - and that inferrence had been made that their individual reputation is publicly questioned to the extent that they are not fit to be in the public office that they are presently holding ?
Was it not an accusation thrown by the SDP towards the PAP - and not to any one person, or anyone specific from one Political Party towards the other Party ?
So, is this what FIRST WORLD POLITICS is all about - the fabrication of an illusion, and stretching the illusion to its most probable limits that can be stretched, and pulverising the other side according to the powers available to the one in power ? -
Originally posted by Atobe:Is there any LAW existing in Singapore - when issues are interpreted and extended in the wildest possible way, as in the manner that the POWER OF ONE wishes, and the Judiciary to be "persuaded" by the POWER OF ONE to see in the same light ?
How did the brilliant minds of the POWER OF ONE - all put together - managed to interpret that the article printed in the SDP papers had made direct reference to the PM and MM - and that inferrence had been made that their individual reputation is publicly questioned to the extent that they are not fit to be in the public office that they are presently holding ?
Was it not an accusation thrown by the SDP towards the PAP - and not to any one person, or anyone specific from one Political Party towards the other Party ?
So, is this what FIRST WORLD POLITICS is all about - the fabrication of an illusion, and stretching the illusion to its most probable limits that can be stretched, and pulverising the other side according to the powers available to the one in power ?
*yawnz* -
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear~Mark Twain (courtesy of Billy Bong's signature)
CSJ is not courageous.
He is irresponsible.
He is reckless.
He lacks wisdom.
As a leader, where will he lead his cohorts to?
Does he know?
Does he care? -
It makes no sense for Lee hsien loong to sue the sdp for defamation regarding the NKF articles in the newspaper because you know what....??????Lee hsien loong's name was never even mentioned once or referred to even once in both articles so how could it be possible that he is being defamed...?????I wonder,could he have been wrongly advised by his lawyer and did he even read the article himself.How could someone defame you if he never even talk about you...?????
Actually it was extremely disappointing that Lee hsien loong resorted to this defamation nonsense because i thought he was the nice guy who would not resort to such tactics like other politicans.He talked about a more open and inclusive society and so I expected him to be not so sensitive and to be more tolerant of diverse views so it was surprising and disappointing that he was using this defamation tactic. -
Archie Ong and Tan Kiat Noi raised the alarm on the abuse going on at the NKF but because they did not have the financial resources and the means to demand for more information from the NKF so they ended up getting sued by the Durai and had to pay defamation damages to Durai even though these 2 employees of NKF were eventually found to be right and Durai was found to be wrong but yet durai won.So the moral of the story is that the party winning the defamtion suit is not necessarily the party that is right but more often it is the party which has greater resources and greater finance and which has the control over the information and data.
That is why the SDP was right in asking for more transparency from the Pap with regards to how the CPF money of Singaporeans are being invested and asking for all ministers to declare their assets and income .Can this be considered as defamation...?????These are all matters of public interest and concern.Instead of giving a counter argument to the SDP or explain why they do not want to be transparent the pap instead resorted to defamation lawsuits to silence the questioning of the SDP.How can this be reasonable ...?????
The 2 NKF employees lost the lawsuit and had to pay defamation charges even though they were telling the truth,and such injustice happened because they did not have the financial means to fight against Durai in court and did not have the detailed accounts of NKF available.So likewise,the fact that the opposition candidates in the past lost the defamation suits and had to pay defamation damages to the Pap ,it does not mean that the opposition memebers were guilty but simply that they did not access to all the data and that is why we can't say that they were necessarily guilty or wrong and all the more why we need greater transparency.
And that is what the articles in the SDP newspapers were trying to ask for.GREATER TRANSPARENCY FROM THE PAP.So what is so defamatory about asking for greater transparency especially after what happened at the NKF...????Should not we all have learned sufficient lessons from the NKF not to repeat the same mistakes..?????And yet when a political party (the SDP) speaks up to tell us to learn from the lessons of the NKF,it got sued for defamation instead.What kind of logic is this and what kind of example is the Pap trying to show..???? -
Please use the Swiss standard of living that the incumbent loved to compare to previously.Originally posted by enginboi:So are you saying singapore is not a livable society for local singaporeans?? are you living in the drain or something?? dun be ridiculous, if you are capable of even thinking wat style of food do you want to eat for dinner later, you din even realise that you are better than billions others that dun even have anything to eat??? Singaporean have one of the better living conditions when compared to the best of the world. In united staes, a first world county, 70 million people, mostly blacks, stays in poverty with no water and electricity, this is a fact that emerge after the recent Hurricane Katrina hit USA, leaving alot of these people..dead. Whether you are able to compare with foreign talents is another issue all together. If you cant match their ability then you blame the government?? Blame yourself for not studying hard!!!! not everyone is equal, not everyone can live in luxury. this is a meritocratic society where the people with the best abilities gets the best, but overall i would say most of the citizens including the poor are well taken care of.
Are we anywhere near it? -
Well..well...these issues with CSJ..a guy with doctorate and a ex-NUS lecturer and with buch of educated people....I don't know whether to believe they the geniune opposition party. Seemed like a wayang to me among the partiesOriginally posted by reyes:sometimes i really question the existence of SDP? are they trule opposition party or decoy for the existing. xxx party.
it make no common sense for the whole party member to make such a accusation at the Elite top minister. and normally such a stupid accusation will give ruling party the reason to discredit the all opposition party.
about the NKF issue. SDP indeed make wrong accusation on baseless foundation. instead the accusation should be base on the accountability of top govt official. where is it? who should resign except the NKF former top exec? where is govt goverance to compliment the corp goverance?
Would you accuse someone if you do not have concrete prove....even if you are not educated.
Take the last election....CSJ shouted at then the PM lau goh...I just cannot believe that...even a gangster would know how to respect a pm..regardless how much hatred that he had in him(CSJ).
In olden days...secret societies' gangster will also pay some repects to whoever the heads of the secret societies...but look at this case now....what a joke...I don't know other countries would laugh at our wayang or not.
Just too real to be ture....the only words that I can describe....wayang.....