Is CSJ a hooligan politician as portrayed by our press?
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Sorry, it should be SM instead of MM.Originally posted by king108:
Sorry Mate, no offence to anyone..from reading the news, I am thinking nothings else but all things coming to an end for SDP.
SDP started by Mr Chiam and may also ended with Mr Chiam..from the way MM stated "it too late"
what an ending.. -
i must correct this when i set my eyes on it.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Please, MRT is an infrastructure, not an investment!! Economic viability is not a consideration here.
Do you think the power supply grid in Bungkok is giving Singapore Power enough return for them to switch on street lights, corridor lights... from 7 to 7? May be they should switch off the light and sell torch lights.
Do you think there are enough residents there to justify the supply of water? may be they should shut down the pump and supply via water truck, charge resident on per trip basis.
1. in economic terms, an infrastructure is an investment. it is an asset and therefore has value to an individual, a company or a nation.
2. since building infrastructures are an economic investment, thus the justification of having double jobs of supplying water via water trucks (perhaps u can consider suggesting to msian govt), selling torch lights to replace the electrical cables already in place is not justified. in fact it should cost more with the increase in petrol/diesel prices, labour costs and of course the materials u need to manufacture these gds/services. these are known as operational overheads. -
i thought he has choices? hmmm...Originally posted by casino_king:If he is a hooligan politician; he is forced by the ruling party to become like that. You cannot blame him.
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Thank God for our youth that Don't possess his kind of 'passion' n 'fire'. i will only wonder what kind of society in our next generation gonna be with politicians like him.Originally posted by LazerLordz:He has the fire that sadly, our youth do not possess. There is nothing hooligan about his actions, it's only those who have been brainwashed by the State into thinking that those are unbecoming actions, believe it to be so.
There's nothing clean and innocent about politics anyway, you play it honest and let it be seen, rather than trying to act as if it's something like Maggi Mee.
if he wants to prove something's not right, pls do himself a favour by submitting proof of what's not right so that the ruling party n the ones involved are not able to 'escape' as indicated in his 'accusations'.
there're laws in singapore. shouldn't a party leader politician know that at least?? -
We should not whitewash freedom of speech simply because of the extreme manner in which Chee chooses to exercise it.
As many have already pointed out, Chee has indeed raised some very important points and arguments which the ruling party has chosen to sidestep.
But due to his ruined credibility, the Ruling party is able to convincingly claim that Chee is making wild and baseless accusations, thereby opening himself to a barrage of legal action. -
it is true we shouldn't whitewash freedom of speech But if chee knows it's extreme in the manner he chose to exercise it then y did he still want to go ahead (n without proofing beyond doubts)? its suicidal for any politician.Originally posted by BillyBong:We should not whitewash freedom of speech simply because of the extreme manner in which Chee chooses to exercise it.
As many have already pointed out, Chee has indeed raised some very important points and arguments which the ruling party has chosen to sidestep.
But due to his ruined credibility, the Ruling party is able to convincingly claim that Chee is making wild and baseless accusations, thereby opening himself to a barrage of legal action.
since chee raised those important points and arguments, shouldn't he at least back it up with proof to nail the ruling party of its 'wrong doing'? where's the proof? this is so lacking in the opposition party which is important for the normal everyday singaporean to witness and understand what is right and wrong through another party's view. (and especially during election time when they are out campaigning) -
Most of his claims are based on half-truths and public sentiments, hardly solid enough to be considered real evidence.
What he and many others claim, such as the general fear factor and lack of judicial impartiality probably warrent merit, but proving them is another matter.
What we should really learn from his frequent outbursts at self-made rallies is that all is not as it seems, and while we are content to stay inside our comfort zone of a secure job and a stable family, we should not ignore the warning signs.
After all, SM Goh is indeed correct. The choice is in our hands. -
true, but seriously, would anyone really want half-truths?
his method of exposing the ruling party's act is flawed, not to mention that he's giving a rather bad aftertaste to the opposition teams (esp his)? -
i'd take the half-truths in a society where there is no FOIA legislation to allow citizens to open up government records and agency transcripts.Period.You live with the information you have, not the information you wish you had.Originally posted by tiggersgd:true, but seriously, would anyone really want half-truths?
his method of exposing the ruling party's act is flawed, not to mention that he's giving a rather bad aftertaste to the opposition teams (esp his)? -
fine with me on ur answer. u want to open up government records and agency transcripts?? u can...get urself into the parliament first. (i mean as in chee)Originally posted by LazerLordz:i'd take the half-truths in a society where there is no FOIA legislation to allow citizens to open up government records and agency transcripts.Period.You live with the information you have, not the information you wish you had.
and a white lie is still a lie. how much credibility can there be in half-truths? -
that's the biggest problem. Citizens should have the power to request for information to make an informed choice rather than have to get elected. This culture has to change, politics for the elite is not politics for the people.Originally posted by tiggersgd:fine with me on ur answer. u want to open up government records and agency transcripts?? u can...get urself into the parliament first. (i mean as in chee)
and a white lie is still a lie. how much credibility can there be in half-truths?
If we had a FOIA legislation that empowers any ordinary citizen with legal assistance to issue a binding request for records and any information not covered under the OSA or ISA, many problems like lack of transparency would have been solved. -
i get ur point now. thanks. currently, i think CST n Low is hampered by these lack of information as well. can they not request for them?Originally posted by LazerLordz:that's the biggest problem. Citizens should have the power to request for information to make an informed choice rather than have to get elected. This culture has to change, politics for the elite is not politics for the people.
If we had a FOIA legislation that empowers any ordinary citizen with legal assistance to issue a binding request for records and any information not covered under the OSA or ISA, many problems like lack of transparency would have been solved.
btw, what's a FOIA? -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
He seem to be foolish in what he had done, but to me alone I felt so sorry to him because he is actually fighting with his hands and legs all tied up.
Chee Soon Juan has fire and heart, but he doesn't know how to use it.
After years of trying to expose the Ruling party for contentious issues such as neopotism and corruption, having been badly mauled by defamation suits, he has become [b]vindictive of the both MM Lee and PM Lee.
As a result, he has lost his own focus on politics.
Is he fighting for the people? Or for himself? Whatever the case, he has clearly lost his way by making this a personal vendetta against MM Lee and PM Lee.
[/b]
I pity his family, his supporters and his own future that have ruined for doing something that we all thinks is "scary"
He shall be remembered by me in my whole lifetime. -
Robertteh, may you introduce yourself? Member of any of the political parties?
I have seen a lot of your posts in these forums, they make interesting reads. You are very serious and passionate about the political situation in Singapore.
Why exactly do you take so much effort to write all these threads? -
1. an investment in an asset must be depreciated over times. How do we account for the depreciation of AYE???Originally posted by tiggersgd:i must correct this when i set my eyes on it.
1. in economic terms, an infrastructure is an investment. it is an asset and therefore has value to an individual, a company or a nation.
2. since building infrastructures are an economic investment, thus the justification of having double jobs of supplying water via water trucks (perhaps u can consider suggesting to msian govt), selling torch lights to replace the electrical cables already in place is not justified. in fact it should cost more with the increase in petrol/diesel prices, labour costs and of course the materials u need to manufacture these gds/services. these are known as operational overheads.
infrastructure is an investment for the nation as your pay for your children's education. do you have a forecast of ROI for your children before you pay their school fees?
2. why dont' we wait till there are enough residents before we build water pipe and electrical cables?
3. if we shut down stations that are not profitable, shouldn't commuters from those profitable stations pay less fares? Does SMRT treat each station a seperate business entity with their own operating overheads?
We are ciitizens, not customers!
In time to come, those living areas where there is no access to MRT will be demanding to pay less tax. -
Are you saying that the WP copied SM version to form their "You got choice" something like that. I doubted..Originally posted by BillyBong:After all, SM Goh is indeed correct. The choice is in our hands. -
I am just like many other forumers here who have certain points of view about our current political evolution at this crucial point of our history.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Robertteh, may you introduce yourself? Member of any of the political parties?
I have seen a lot of your posts in these forums, they make interesting reads. You are very serious and passionate about the political situation in Singapore.
Why exactly do you take so much effort to write all these threads?
The next generation of Singaporeans should maintain a greater interest in their own future as the first-generation leaders will not take care of their interest forever. No one will take care of their interest except themselves. The time is now in the transition to a third-wave technology-driven or knowledge-intensive society.
If they do not have a view then they will sway with the wind or fall for anything. There is a need for new governing philosophy among the younger generation to do better than the top-down elitist approaches of the past which could only achieve so much and no more. This is a new age which calls for mass participation through knowledge application and empowerments of every one in every field. Is this vision too idealistic. I do not think so. Western Europe can have democracy and progress all at the same time while attaining economic and social vibrancy. The people in Finland and Switzerland take the route of democracy and mass participation through practical knowledge application which leads to innovation and creativity.
We are taking the narrow route of top-down elitist system which has to keep up with answering to failures and shortcomings such as high costs and controls without benefiting the masses.
We have to keep up with shutting up of dissent closing of blogs or licensing of the press and media to prevent revolt. Isn't this rather a narrow and closed system which will not involve the younger population to stay vibrant and competitive.
Yet despite so many problems as posted in the past and the "20 major problems of the government" in another thread, the first generation leaders are still fearful of change or relaxation of past control system. Bother the old and the young are having to contend with one another. Is this what we want for progress or solve our many problems. Unless we change, time will change all of us and we will all be becoming more and more apathetic to politics or political development and losing out to other more vibrant societies in this country. -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:another believer that public transport has to be profitable beyond equitable costs.
Sometimes, the whole climate and society's way of doing things has to be totally rebuilt and changed. Public transport must be able to self sustain and minimum pay their employee a quality wage package isn't it. I think they deserved something better..
Actually, if everyone get better wage package, the public transport will no be any more an issue isn't it?.
Hope that we can expect more then. Why go for less -
Freedom of Information Act, as in the UK...you can use this to compel government departments to release official data, as long as they are not secrets that threaten national security and interests.Originally posted by tiggersgd:btw, what's a FOIA?
I agree with that idea but I disagree that just because we do not have access to information we can make things up and slander others. CSJ ought to leave politics...he is a bane, not an asset to the Opposition. -
CSJ is more suited to civil society activism than regular Parliamentary politics, but the thing is...there ain't a place for such people yet, time will tell though..Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Freedom of Information Act, as in the UK...you can use this to compel government departments to release official data, as long as they are not secrets that threaten national security and interests.
I agree with that idea but I disagree that just because we do not have access to information we can make things up and slander others. CSJ ought to leave politics...he is a bane, not an asset to the Opposition.
hmm.. -
chee is as hotheaded as a rookie..he'd probably fit better into taiwan's WWE parliament.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
1. an investment in an asset must be depreciated over times. How do we account for the depreciation of AYE???
infrastructure is an investment for the nation as your pay for your children's education. do you have a forecast of ROI for your children before you pay their school fees?
erm...i dun understand ur children's education part y do u link ur children to infrastructure? unless you're a leech on your children for your daily expenses (read ROI = returns on investment) in future? btw, you don't calculate ROI on human beings in that way. else, HR personnel will be extremely busy calculating which staffs' ROI is up and time to terminate their services. perhaps, your HR is calculating urs now?
as for AYE depreciation, i didn't know a fixed asset depreciates. land (and structures on it) only increase in monetary terms. unless the nation is at war and other exceptions. u obviously didn't study economics or accounting b4 or perhaps you are thinking of a car? that is depreciating in value from day one when u take the key from the sale advisor. don't you know? hmmm... 
2. why dont' we wait till there are enough residents before we build water pipe and electrical cables?
why don't you shift to a remote place where you have suggested on water trucks (which will only come to you once in a week.) and torch lights (pls get enough batteries) to survive on? do you like to try and feedback what's its like? i'll be all ears then.
3. if we shut down stations that are not profitable, shouldn't commuters from those profitable stations pay less fares? Does SMRT treat each station a seperate business entity with their own operating overheads?
We are ciitizens, not customers!
In time to come, those living areas where there is no access to MRT will be demanding to pay less tax.
[b] what gd will it do if the stations are there and its shut? remember the white elephant posters issue in buangkok? what does the residents want? now they have gotten it and have proven to the authority and the rest of the public that it is indeed under-utilised...what's next? shut it down again?
take the NEL line for instance, its fares are much higher than other lines. why so? the line still have station/s that are not operating bcos like what u have mentioned >> shutting it down that are not profitable.
sad to say, SMRT or any train operators will take it as a business entity for their line of operation. if not who is going to help pay the salaries of the personnel involved? you?
citizens are still customers.
pay less taxes...yeah, sure. tell me when u have shifted to that remote island where water trucks and torch lights (with sufficient batteries) are your mode of getting water and light source in the night respectively. perhaps then your demand for paying less taxes will be heard in parliament. -
hi, i'm only taking your quotes in part. i apologise if i read you differently.Originally posted by robertteh:I am just like many other forumers here who have certain points of view about our current political evolution at this crucial point of our history.
The next generation of Singaporeans should maintain a greater interest in their own future as the first-generation leaders will not take care of their interest forever. No one will take care of their interest except themselves. The time is now in the transition to a third-wave technology-driven or knowledge-intensive society.
If they do not have a view then they will sway with the wind or fall for anything. There is a need for new governing philosophy among the younger generation to do better than the top-down elitist approaches of the past which could only achieve so much and no more. This is a new age which calls for mass participation through knowledge application and empowerments of every one in every field. Is this vision too idealistic. I do not think so. Western Europe can have democracy and progress all at the same time while attaining economic and social vibrancy. The people in Finland and Switzerland take the route of democracy and mass participation through practical knowledge application which leads to innovation and creativity.
We are taking the narrow route of top-down elitist system which has to keep up with answering to failures and shortcomings such as high costs and controls without benefiting the masses.
We have to keep up with shutting up of dissent closing of blogs or licensing of the press and media to prevent revolt. Isn't this rather a narrow and closed system which will not involve the younger population to stay vibrant and competitive.
Yet despite so many problems as posted in the past and the "20 major problems of the government" in another thread, the first generation leaders are still fearful of change or relaxation of past control system. Bother the old and the young are having to contend with one another. Is this what we want for progress or solve our many problems. Unless we change, time will change all of us and we will all be becoming more and more apathetic to politics or political development and losing out to other more vibrant societies in this country.
regarding democracy, it is somewhat limited here. but with regards to the closing of blogs or licensing of the press n media to prevent revolt...i believe there's no shortage of news either thru traditional papers/press. and more IT savvy will search online for current news/affairs which interests them.
for blogs, take the racist remarks for instance. is it necessary? everyone will have different views on an issue but does that make it necessary to become a racist of a particular race? certainly not! its mutual understanding and respect for each other. its abt tolerance. we live in a multi-language, mulit-racial society. in this respect, it is even more important that our youths of the new generation know how to control their outbursts.
"The people in Finland and Switzerland take the route of democracy and mass participation through practical knowledge application which leads to innovation and creativity"
this is definitely a gd progression for the 2 countries...but it is also not a fair comparison for singapore and singaporeans by and large bcos, we ain't a big country...just a small dot. thus we need a different kind of innovation and creativity which only started of late (en masse). take for eg. china look upon singapore with much respect n regards for our practicality in terms of living standards(housing), transportation system and others. we're the only country, small enough to have things working beautifully. these are from the mouths of chinese xchange students in our local varsities and definitely agreed by their higher echelon (spelling?? sorry.) as well. -
We sure don't calculate ROI on human beings because we don't expect return of investment on human beings the same way we expect from other forms of investments. Investmant in infrastructure is different from other form of investment.Originally posted by tiggersgd:erm...i dun understand ur children's education part y do u link ur children to infrastructure? unless you're a leech on your children for your daily expenses (read ROI = returns on investment) in future? btw, you don't calculate ROI on human beings in that way. else, HR personnel will be extremely busy calculating which staffs' ROI is up and time to terminate their services. perhaps, your HR is calculating urs now?
as for AYE depreciation, i didn't know a fixed asset depreciates. land (and structures on it) only increase in monetary terms. unless the nation is at war and other exceptions. u obviously didn't study economics or accounting b4 or perhaps you are thinking of a car? that is depreciating in value from day one when u take the key from the sale advisor
Fixed asset don't depreciates? go ask your accountants. 
You think the government can cash in AYE or CTE for a value higher than its original costs of construction. Hehe, which accounting school did you come from?
Cars used to appreciate when COE went higher and higher. Assets appreciates or depreciates according to supply and demand and a lot of other factors. Do you know the difference between econ and accounts?Originally posted by tiggersgd:why don't you shift to a remote place where you have suggested on water trucks (which will only come to you once in a week.) and torch lights (pls get enough batteries) to survive on? do you like to try and feedback what's its like? i'll be all ears then. you need to act a lot cuter to distract my attention from the main topic. give me at least one reason why power cables and water pipes were built in places where there are not enough residents to pay for the current running costs.
I paid for the construction of the lines. payback from SMRT??? I am also paying for the salaries of the personnel involved.Originally posted by tiggersgd:sad to say, SMRT or any train operators will take it as a business entity for their line of operation. if not who is going to help pay the salaries of the personnel involved? you?
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Mindset that justifying the leeching of citizens should be changed. -
I also agreed ISA is also important but it had rarely been used except on those JI member plotting to bomb Yishun MRT station.Originally posted by Blue Dolphin:I must highlight that I have selectively quoted from the original post and may in the process not show the full thrust of the post.
I think ISA is important regardless of how mature a society is. Its existence is useful to allow impending threat to national security that may not be proven beyond doubt that the courts need to throw people in jail. It is important to note how the ISA has been implemented in the past few instances. I am glad that we managed to prevent JI from carrying out its act and mitigated its impact on our trade, as well as that of the region.
I am not sure the government fear the opposition making certain remarks. I grant that in any contest, competition, football matches, the winner is not known until the whistle is blown. I respect the PAP putting up a strong fight and not be complacent, for I want my government to be eternally vigilant and second to none.
If nothing else, the bungkok MRT incident highlighted the insightfulness of the government. Utilisation rate of the MRT is low and not economically viable. I, too, thought it was quite strange to build a MRT station and wait for passenger and thought some statistician was wrong and a proper survey was not carried out. So now, I am wrong and the MRT station is under utilised.