MM Lee owes Singaporeans an apology
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I realised I can love your daughter and make her live here to love singapore..Originally posted by alien2:my daughter was born there, and now she just graduate with honours and intend to live there as a foreigner.
Called in advance future Father In Law. -
I don't have the exact figures, but the last time I remembered a report indicating that the President of the united states earns much lesser than our PM/SM/MM. In fact, Clinton was really poor during his stint as president (his wife earns much more than him), his financial health got only much better after he retired from politics (giving talks, etc).Originally posted by DummiesInc:May I know how much are the ministers in the USA paid? Thank you.
The German head of the country (can't spell the actual word) lives in a 1-room flat, and earns if I did not remember wrongly, about 100k plus EUROS PER YEAR, much much lesser than our PM/SM/MM (who earns about SGD 100k plus PER MONTH). -
our ministers' salary is a few K a day.
how much does an average worker earns a month? -
Originally posted by freakass:
not 100%, but quite there. Temasek has a hand in almost everything in Singapore
For your information, umemployment rate has gone DOWN. Cost of living going up is due to the effect of globalisation. This is an unavoidable situation unless u want Singapore to lag behind the other developed countries. And lastly, I dont understand why people blame low income on the government also. Why do people just blame everything on the government? Singapore is not made up of 100% government companies, so the government does not control your income. There are so many MNCs around. Your income is determined by your personal working ability and qualifications. Do not blame it on the government. You expect the government to feed you?
[/b] -
feedback?Originally posted by freakass:Yes I think I lost the argument... Vote for the opposition if u want to and let all hell break loose... BUT bear the consequences yourself!
I cannot deny that some of your arguments make sense but do you think that the opposition will be able to solve those problems? I still believe that it is better to let the experienced party handle such issues through our feedback rather than throwing the problems to greenhorns...
I'm going for lunch... Bye guys! Be back later...
when do the govt ever listen to us?
nobody wants the opposition to run the country. but having oppositions in the parliament is a must. -
some european countries have less graft than we do. the ministers there are definitely not getting 100k a month.Originally posted by freakass:Sometimes I feel that many Singaporeans are very narrow-minded. As long as the PAP does something which doesnt seem to benefit individuals directly or obviously, they shoot the PAP. These people, which are the majority, do not see the big picture. You have to ask yourself whether the actions taken by the PAP benefit the nation as a whole? Only when there is progress and stability in a nation can the government pay more attention to the individual needs. I feel that they are already trying their best to strike a balance between the two. Opposition parties, on the other hand, try to wind support by promising to do this and that for the individuals, but is it really possible to carry out the promised actions when they really take over? There are many other factors to consider you know? It's not as simple as "My residents need a playground. I'll get it done tomorrow." The opposition parties also tend to argue that the ministers' salaries are way too high, but I feel that this is a must to prevent corruption. If ministers were paid peanuts, no one would want to volunteer to become one and there is bound to be high levels of corruption in the government. -
I agree. Opposition IS A MUST.Originally posted by dragg:feedback?
when do the govt ever listen to us?
nobody wants the opposition to run the country. but having oppositions in the parliament is a must.
For a democracy, we are a joker. 80+ seats, and only 2 held by opposition.
Without a voice in check, all hell breaks loose! The PAP can happily declare higher income, etc without even bothering about us.
Why? Coz they will say we voted them in. We ENDORSED their high pay. Forget about their crap about creating internal oppositiion within the party. All members of the same family will support their own people.
Finally, I say again, Politics IS NOT a career. I feel many MPs go into politics for all the wrong reasons (extra cash per month, woo hoo!). I see many MPs (including some ministers) sleeping during Parliament. Pay them $11k+ to sleep... hmmz...
The wealth distribution in a kingdom has to be done properly. Pay high to yourself, and pay peanuts to your people, and the risk of rebellion increases (just look at the many dynasties that collapsed coz their rulers live in abundant wealth while their people suffer). Live frugally, and distribute your wealth to your people, and the stability of the country increases. No one can deny PAP's pay is very skewed, so much more than the average singaporean (heck, even their MP allowance $11k+, is much more than the average singaporean). -
what makes you think only the youngsters are complaining? are you sure the older generation is very satisfied?Originally posted by freakass:What's with Singaporeans these days? I am not saying that we should listen blindly to the PAP, but are you sure that the opposition can govern Singapore better than PAP?
DO NOT VOTE FOR THE OPPOSITION JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK THAT THE PAP DOES NOT DO THINGS THE WAY YOU WANT THEM TO BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION MAY NOT BE UP TO YOUR STANDARD TOO. ONLY VOTE FOR THE OPPOSITION IF YOU THINK THEY CAN DO THE JOB BETTER THAN THE PAP.
I realise Singaporeans these days really like to complain a lot... I think this is the result of higher levels of education... Youngsters these days think and argue too much... It is a good sign but I think it's used in the wrong manner... Basically I see that people argue for the sake of arguing.. The whole point being that they do not want to lose the argument... Just take the LKY conversation on TV as an example... Those people have gone over the line lah seriously... They want LKY to respect the youngsters but are they respecting him? Think about it...
there are always two sides to a coin!!! -
nobody can take away what he has done for singapore. and i am sure it is fair to say that this country has repaid him enough too.Originally posted by manlovedoggie:That's MR LEE KWAN YEW to you all guys here! Stop disrespecting him here by making senseless remarks here!
Since when does the MM owes any S'poreans anything for that matter?
If he was not around, S'pore will not have anything at all.
Show some respect to the FATHER OF S'pore!!!
anyway there is no way to say that without him singapore wont have anything at all. this statement is an insult to the people who has worked with him during those days. were there no capable people around then? -
oh ya, and we are the only country with a ridiculous SM and MM roles.
This sounds like a company with 3 CEOs.
Do you have a company that is willing to pay for 3 CEOs to do the same CEO job?
Pls bear in mind, that these people should retire from politics and let the younger take over. I respect MM Lee for bringing Singapore into what it is today, but pls let go when the time is up.
It is likened to Alex Ferguson, whom won the treble for Man U in 1999, then refused to let go and retire in glory, but continue on till today. Now, people don't remember him for the treble, but of his failures after that.
Ang PEng Siong, whom was once the fastest man in the world, refused to retire, and at the end, was forced to retire CRYING coz he could not find any sponsors. Now we only remember Peng Siong for crying, not for the fastest man in the world.
The above are examples of people whom do not let go, and ended up dragging on their lives in frustration. -
Do not think that we Singaporeans are children of the govt. (ie the govt asks us to do what, we do what)
In fact, in a corporation perspective, since we contribute money to the board of directors to run the company, we are SHAREHOLDERS.
We are shareholders whom are actually more important than the management (coz if the management screws up, we can get new management to take over).
Thus, the govt is doing a service FOR US, coz we PAY them. -
quote:Originally posted by freakass:
Sometimes I feel that many Singaporeans are very narrow-minded. As long as the PAP does something which doesnt seem to benefit individuals directly or obviously, they shoot the PAP. These people, which are the majority, do not see the big picture. You have to ask yourself whether the actions taken by the PAP benefit the nation as a whole? Only when there is progress and stability in a nation can the government pay more attention to the individual needs. I feel that they are already trying their best to strike a balance between the two. Opposition parties, on the other hand, try to wind support by promising to do this and that for the individuals, but is it really possible to carry out the promised actions when they really take over? There are many other factors to consider you know? It's not as simple as "My residents need a playground. I'll get it done tomorrow." The opposition parties also tend to argue that the ministers' salaries are way too high, but I feel that this is a must to prevent corruption. If ministers were paid peanuts, no one would want to volunteer to become one and there is bound to be high levels of corruption in the government.
wha.......this statement i agree.............the pap really fullfill its promises to the people regarding alot of things........and during the recent show of all the 4 party members that came up to TV to make a speech.......i was laughing at the way SDP held their speech...............if they really had the power and the will to help the residents........please DO IT more in action......
and again......nothing is really offensive here......don't kill me for my own personal views okay?? -
you have the 5Cs. so i am right to say that you are assuming everyone is doing as well as you are?Originally posted by sportsmandom:Boys and Girls,
Say what you like. I have benefitted from the Singapore system and I will continue to support the PAP. Without them, i will not be able to achieve what I have today.
A system based on Meritocracy is good for everyone. I came from a poor family and today, I own all the 5 Cs. Yes, I have worked hard but if the system does not support meritocracy , then I will not be here today.
My heartiest thanks to the government and my vote goes to you! Keep up the good work! Singaporeans need you! Singapore needs you!
remember this, you are i each carry only 1 vote. if you are doing very well i really see no reason why you will want a change in the current political climate. but there are others who do!!! -
so legal corruption is better than illegal corruption? Like I said, it is all in the mindset. Many people enter politics for the wrong reasons.Originally posted by gohkatkat:quote:Originally posted by freakass:
Sometimes I feel that many Singaporeans are very narrow-minded. As long as the PAP does something which doesnt seem to benefit individuals directly or obviously, they shoot the PAP. These people, which are the majority, do not see the big picture. You have to ask yourself whether the actions taken by the PAP benefit the nation as a whole? Only when there is progress and stability in a nation can the government pay more attention to the individual needs. I feel that they are already trying their best to strike a balance between the two. Opposition parties, on the other hand, try to wind support by promising to do this and that for the individuals, but is it really possible to carry out the promised actions when they really take over? There are many other factors to consider you know? It's not as simple as "My residents need a playground. I'll get it done tomorrow." The opposition parties also tend to argue that the ministers' salaries are way too high, but I feel that this is a must to prevent corruption. If ministers were paid peanuts, no one would want to volunteer to become one and there is bound to be high levels of corruption in the government.
Opposition parties are limited in what they can do coz the PAP uses resources wrongly for themselves when it is the PEOPLE's resources.
How can PAP = govt. Vote for opposition, and we limit your funds to your area? Is this how a gentleman should behave? a first world govt to behave? Respect the views of the PEOPLE!
And no, I won't vote for SDP, coz they are silly people following an equally silly person. I will vote for WP, coz they are very credible this time round, their people handled PAP's personal attacks really appropriately.
When the opposition asked for the PAP MPs to go full-time like they intend to, how did the MPs reply? Oh... being a full-time MP need not necessary be a good thing. This is dodging the question. No one asked you whether its a good thing or not. People ask you whether you are willing to go full-time. Basically, all I can see is, they want to have their cake and eat it at the same time. -
Originally posted by freakass:
what makes you think the opposition cant do it? have you ever given them a chance?
[b]Before you vote for the opposition parties, think about the following...
It is ever so easy for one to crticize someone else's work, but being able to point out the flaws doesn't necessarily mean that one can take over and perform the job better. The opposition parties have brought out many convincing arguments on the loopholes and inefficiency of the PAP's system of government, but if you decide to vote for them just based on their arguments, please consider whether they themselves are up to the job. Will they mess things up instead?
We all know that movie critics have got lots to say about movies, of which some comments are really true and accurate, but does that mean that these critics can be good actors and directors themselves?[/b]
chiam see tong was given a chance to run potong pasir. voters there continue to vote him in because he can do the job!!!
if you go for an interview you want to be given a chance to try out the job dont you?
based on your belief we singaporeans must vote for PAP forever and ever? -
Look at Singapore development over the last 40 years. It is super impressive!
[/b][/quote]
the ministers' pay is the most impressive. -
wha.......this statement i agree.............the pap really fullfill its promises to the people regarding alot of things........and during the recent show of all the 4 party members that came up to TV to make a speech.......i was laughing at the way SDP held their speech...............if they really had the power and the will to help the residents........please DO IT more in action......
and again......nothing is really offensive here......don't kill me for my own personal views okay??
two sides to a coin. there are good and bad oppositions too. -
Fellow Will4, you got choice too..quickly apologise to Fellow Alien2..he may considered you infront of me..Originally posted by king108:I realised I can love your daughter and make her live here to love singapore.. Called in advance future Father In Law. -
The idea of 5Cs was a sham created by the 'scholarly' and short-sighted. Whatever it stood for, it was eventually warped into a 'status' issue that turned the middle-upper income singaporean society into a materialistic one.Originally posted by sportsmandom:Boys and Girls,
Say what you like. I have benefitted from the Singapore system and I will continue to support the PAP. Without them, i will not be able to achieve what I have today.
A system based on Meritocracy is good for everyone. I came from a poor family and today, I own all the 5 Cs. Yes, I have worked hard but if the system does not support meritocracy , then I will not be here today.
My heartiest thanks to the government and my vote goes to you! Keep up the good work! Singaporeans need you! Singapore needs you!
So much that PM LHL had to intervene and unveil another set of '5Cs' which leaned entirely towards ethics and morality. His wish was to moderate an already ugly culture from becoming decadant. A reflection of the ruling party if you will.
Which '5Cs' do you belong to then? From your flippant replies, it hardy qualifies for the 2nd set.
Being gracious that you have made it while others have not doesn't seem to be one of your 'virtues'. At this point, you're probably engaging in another round of self-praise that your hard work earned you your current status.
And just so you know, 'hard work' is no longer viewed as 'value-add'. A hard-worker can still get retrenched, as evident by the massive unemployment rates of 2003-2004. We are only just beginning to dig ourselves out of the hole.
Take a long look in the mirror. Your condescending attitude and unrepentent arrogance are typical hallmarks of the Ruling Party.
It is no wonder you steadfastly stand by them and their actions right or wrong. -
Originally posted by sportsmandom:
Your last line is most amusing.
See the reponse from some of the forumers and you see what I mean by political immaturity.....
Naive and immatured responses and waste my time answering to them.....while they are writing, I have gone to sleep...ha ha ha...
Freakass....let them talk until the cows come home and they will still insist they are right in their views and opinions............don't waste your time with them......
Treasure what we have....our government have a proven track record and we should continue to give them our utmost support..... Our founding father has fighted hard and create such a lovely country for us and we should be grateful.........
Never bite the hand that feeds you.....without him, you won't have the time to happily writing comments on this forum......=
As with a loyal 'dog', you bite the 'scraps' thrown at you by your master and dare not question why you cannot be eat a 'full meal'. In time your loyalty will be rewarded with still more 'scraps'. Yet you will always remain the 'dog' you deserve.
There is no question that MM Lee and his PAP have made SG what it is today. Yet there are many issues that remain unanswered. And the culture he has developed is one of a babysitter. The continued insistence that only 'MY WAY' works. A system that breeds arrogance and dismissive attitude all round.
When success flows, the Ruling Party will claim all the credit like a conceited board of directors basking in overellaborate glory.
But when a system fails, they blame the peasants and absolve themselves of all fault, even washing their hands of it.
When there was a dearth of creativity and stagnation in the market, they blamed the people for lacking invention and entrepreneurship, but failed to notice that their education system and numerous economic barriers (both of which were created by the govt) diluted the ability to 'think out of the box' and stifled creativity.
Now Tharman Sharmugaratnam is desperately giving the education system a long-overdue RELOOK and OVERHAUL.
When one of their number made a SGD500 million mistake, it was whitewashed as an expensive tuition fee. Such mistakes would surely be punished with immediate dismissal in the private sector and accountability to the shareholders. Not so in this case.
When several of the family members were implicated in a property scandal, it was hush-hushed and watered over. Yet they make a mountain of molehill when it concerns an opposition party member.
This is the govt you support: BLINDLY, FAITHFULLY and UNQUESTIONABLY. -
So quick to concede?Originally posted by freakass:Yes I think I lost the argument... Vote for the opposition if u want to and let all hell break loose... BUT bear the consequences yourself!
I cannot deny that some of your arguments make sense but do you think that the opposition will be able to solve those problems? I still believe that it is better to let the experienced party handle such issues through our feedback rather than throwing the problems to greenhorns...
I'm going for lunch... Bye guys! Be back later...
Given your propensity to jump on the govt bandwagon so easily and so cheaply, i would have imagined a sterner rebuke would have been waiting?
You seem to have fallen into the trap that the Ruling Party can make it while the OPPOSITION cannot. Or that voting the opposition is a MISTAKE.
The Ruling Party will have you believe that the WP or SDA are
'dangerous', that their policies spell ruin for the country. But first of all, are we talking about running a coalition govt? We are merely looking at running a town council. It is obvious that even if the opposition were to win the unlikely margin of just 20 seats in parliament, not one of them will be installed as a minister overseeing national affairs. The Ruling Party will make sure of that.
We are looking at the merits of having an alternative OTHER than the Ruling Party to run a town council. The Ruling Party claim that they can do a better job. But on what basis should the people judge?
MM Lee said in TODAY papers last week, speaking in regard to East coast GRC: Would you prefer to have a Ruling Party MP running your estate, with the backing of the govt? Or would you prefer an non-PAP MP running your estate? How will he be able to solve the flooding problem in Bedok?
My first question would be: why is there even flooding in bedok? Is it because Prof S Jayakumar's team has not done their job then?
Even the 'invincible' can prove fallible.
With the quality of opposition available in the WP at least, are you so quick to dismiss them as 'not up to mark'? -
yes i know dragg.......you are super duper good with all those many many many arguments............oh nothing offensive though......just take heart.......Originally posted by dragg:wha.......this statement i agree.............the pap really fullfill its promises to the people regarding alot of things........and during the recent show of all the 4 party members that came up to TV to make a speech.......i was laughing at the way SDP held their speech...............if they really had the power and the will to help the residents........please DO IT more in action......
and again......nothing is really offensive here......don't kill me for my own personal views okay??
two sides to a coin. there are good and bad oppositions too.
a person's heaven may be hell....similarly......another person's hell may be heaven......... -
quote:Originally posted by freakass:
Sometimes I feel that many Singaporeans are very narrow-minded. As long as the PAP does something which doesnt seem to benefit individuals directly or obviously, they shoot the PAP. These people, which are the majority, do not see the big picture. You have to ask yourself whether the actions taken by the PAP benefit the nation as a whole? Only when there is progress and stability in a nation can the government pay more attention to the individual needs. I feel that they are already trying their best to strike a balance between the two. Opposition parties, on the other hand, try to wind support by promising to do this and that for the individuals, but is it really possible to carry out the promised actions when they really take over? There are many other factors to consider you know? It's not as simple as "My residents need a playground. I'll get it done tomorrow." The opposition parties also tend to argue that the ministers' salaries are way too high, but I feel that this is a must to prevent corruption. If ministers were paid peanuts, no one would want to volunteer to become one and there is bound to be high levels of corruption in the government.
Freakass,
this is some of my vlews to rebut your points. You claim that the opposotions capitalise on the issue of our minister's salary to make ppls vote for them.
Yes, it is true that having a huge fat paycheck is a way to prevent corruption,......BUT wat type of ppls are u gonna attract? I tell u, it is the SALARY MEN. They type of ppls that just want to have connections, earn prestige and help them springboard into the government owned enterprises as some high ranking ppls. Serving ppls should be one that is done out of passion, out of love and concern to the general well-being of the nation. When you earn a high pay check, you will choose to live in private estates and lock yourself up in the ivory tower and choose to 'imagine ' the problems of the ppls, instead of really understanding their worries. Just look at our MP in white seating for parliament, ,most of them are either looking around feeling bored, some are caught dozing off, you really will question their sincerity and lvl of interest in serving the ppls. When ask upon their views of the issue, they will just go " Yes, Yes......!!" WHY? "Because our heavenly LKY said so, so must say yes......." All this is just gerrymandering. Ironically, most of the time, i it is the oppostion that are questioning the government. For example, Steve Chia, went on to harp on the defense minister to release the figures of those that died during NS. It was then ppls knoe of the high death rate was mainly due to some reason........., if not, many ppls esp the foreigners will think our NS is a walk in the garden.
Personally, I believe that a multi party system in which the views of Singaporeans from all walks of live and background is good for our country. Yes, PAP will always boast abt their MBA, PHD, harvard, cambridge scholar candidates, but seriously does education lvl tally with the ability to serve the ppls? Yes they may be academic geniuses but do they really understand the problems of the heartlanders? Can they apply their knowledge from txtbks to solve the daily problems the ppls face? Most importantly, are they willing to walk around to interact with ppls from time to time or will they choose to do that onli when it is election time? -
In a job interview, the potential candidate presents himself as having the capability of managing and doing well in the job offered within a short period of time. Then, when employed, he or she gets to go through a probation period.Originally posted by dragg:what makes you think the opposition cant do it? have you ever given them a chance?
chiam see tong was given a chance to run potong pasir. voters there continue to vote him in because he can do the job!!!
if you go for an interview you want to be given a chance to try out the job dont you?
based on your belief we singaporeans must vote for PAP forever and ever?
One, we should stop using job interviews as analogies for election. Unless there is a probation period for new MPs as well.
Two, a candidate is employed to go through the probation period because he or she reflected and performed well during the interview. In the process, application forms contain brief information about whether they have commited offences in the past. Now, tell me if the opposition candidates have presented themselves well enough, and whether they have put themselves across well enough to Singaporeans to deserve a seat in the Parliament. Mr Chiam is respectable because he earned his seat in Parliament. Mr Low had also risen to the occasion.
Now, please stop complaining about no democracy because there are only 2 miserable opposition seats in the Parliament. It is up to Singaporeans to effect changes if they have the courage and the capability. Singapore is a very young country - in time to come, if enough people are able to prove themselves as effective and capable members of parliament with alternative voices, Singapore can also evolve to be like US or other western countries. Again, it is not appropriate to compare Singapore with other western systems. Good to have them as benchmark, but we need to work hard to be like them.
For those who keep complaining about the government in forums, why don't you stand for election as an opposition candidate and prove that Singapore can be like the western systems sooner than expected? -
Originally posted by freakass:Sometimes I feel that many Singaporeans are very narrow-minded. As long as the PAP does something which doesnt seem to benefit individuals directly or obviously, they shoot the PAP. These people, which are the majority, do not see the big picture. You have to ask yourself whether the actions taken by the PAP benefit the nation as a whole? Only when there is progress and stability in a nation can the government pay more attention to the individual needs. I feel that they are already trying their best to strike a balance between the two. Opposition parties, on the other hand, try to wind support by promising to do this and that for the individuals, but is it really possible to carry out the promised actions when they really take over? There are many other factors to consider you know? It's not as simple as "My residents need a playground. I'll get it done tomorrow." The opposition parties also tend to argue that the ministers' salaries are way too high, but I feel that this is a must to prevent corruption. If ministers were paid peanuts, no one would want to volunteer to become one and there is bound to be high levels of corruption in the government.
Hi freakass,
I have a few questions for you:
Do u think media control and GRC is good for the people?
Do u think unfair election (as acknowledged by MMlee) is good for Spore?
Do you think such unfair acts are of a world class government??
Wont it make more people more naive and reliant and ignorant of the truth?
And prevents really good people from coming out?
U should know how HDB flats, living cost increases last 20 yrs in persue of such Swiss Std of living.
Do really think we are truly competent enough to persue Swiss Std of living?
Especially around 10+ yrs ago, when this target was set.
Do u think our over-reliance and pro-GLCs and MNCs policies are good for Spore?
When MNCs are busy moving out, what we need is more local private companies like Hyflux, Creative, Ossim, Venture like companies,
which our government had hamper in the past with its pro-GLCs and high-paying civil organisation.
Why do you think we have no other choice but Casinos?
Do you really think globalisation is main and only reason?
Do you seriously think All of our Elite-System's ministers have the Entrepenuer
know-how to command Ceos pay?
Do you think they know best when it comes to Entrepenuerships and
Economy?
The private sectors is a critical pillar of a nation's overall employment
and economy structure.
It is only now with global competition, and MNCs moving out,
they begin to realise this.
So now, do you think PAP and its Elite system knows best and had done
the best for Singapore???