???? on Housing
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I have a very big ? on housing (part of livelihood) here:
I hear from 1st generation sgporean that in the initial nation building stage where HDB is implemented, it usually take less than 10 years for a household (single working person) to repay fully the loan taken.
In this current time, I observed that nowadays a HDB loan requires a household (2 person, both wife and husband) & usually 20~25 years or more of working life to complete the repayment.
Base on this observation:
1) Aren't we turning worst? Most households (husband & wife) need to continue to work and worry till the completion of the Housing loan? This indirectly also cause other social problems on the next generation.
2) It seems that we are indulging in larger and larger housing debt and using more of future $ to fuel our current needs and expenditure?
Someone pls advise me. I got a sense that part of our progression is using future $ to fuel our current needs. I have no economic education background, but anyone with common sense will find this weird, right? -
You have to account for inflation, the current state of the property market, the larger size of the flats, and the higher quality of construction and workmanship. Otherwise it is not fair to compare between HDB prices then and now.
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Hi thanks. I know someone will reply to me in such way, but the realism is both husband and wife have to work to substain the loan nowadays compared to the olden days. Btw, my observation is drawn from the same-size housing (I am not so illogical to draw observation from different basic factorsOriginally posted by dakkon_blackblade:You have to account for inflation, the current state of the property market, the larger size of the flats, and the higher quality of construction and workmanship. Otherwise it is not fair to compare between HDB prices then and now.
)
I am neither an academic in this area nor an expert in what your mentioned, but a normal civilian looking for enlightenment to my doubts.
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You see, the "inflation" answer is false. What happens normally is that "inflation" will never be that bad unless engineered by the gahman.Originally posted by thinker:I have a very big ? on housing (part of livelihood) here:
I hear from 1st generation sgporean that in the initial nation building stage where HDB is implemented, it usually take less than 10 years for a household (single working person) to repay fully the loan taken.
In this current time, I observed that nowadays a HDB loan requires a household (2 person, both wife and husband) & usually 20~25 years or more of working life to complete the repayment.
Base on this observation:
1) Aren't we turning worst? Most households (husband & wife) need to continue to work and worry till the completion of the Housing loan? This indirectly also cause other social problems on the next generation.
2) It seems that we are indulging in larger and larger housing debt and using more of future $ to fuel our current needs and expenditure?
Someone pls advise me. I got a sense that part of our progression is using future $ to fuel our current needs. I have no economic education background, but anyone with common sense will find this weird, right?
The people who benefits from such exorbitant housing price increases are the people who have extra houses to sell... the very rich.
In Thailand, a professional computer programmer I know can pay off her house in about 7 years.
So you are right, Singaporeans are suckers but as long as we have a single party dictatorship, we will always be suckers. -
To be fair to the pap, many first worlds also have very expensive housing - Hong Kong, Japan and many cities in US.Originally posted by casino_king:You see, the "inflation" answer is false. What happens normally is that "inflation" will never be that bad unless engineered by the gahman.
The people who benefits from such exorbitant housing price increases are the people who have extra houses to sell... the very rich.
In Thailand, a professional computer programmer I know can pay off her house in about 7 years.
So you are right, Singaporeans are suckers but as long as we have a single party dictatorship, we will always be suckers.
But whether they are freehold, 999 or 99 years i am not sure. -
Yes, I agree. The situation is actually not improved, but become worse. People have to work more years for the same size of house. as long as you have debt, you are not free
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Become worse is an understatement. It is very bad... the gahman can do something about it but they never will... not this gahman anyway. Got us into this siht then try to pull wool over our eyes and say stupid things like 1st world and so on.Originally posted by diamond008:Yes, I agree. The situation is actually not improved, but become worse. People have to work more years for the same size of house. as long as you have debt, you are not free
1st world salaries are much higher and social protection much better... here only the rich gets better and better.
That is what single party dictatorship does... -
I am rising this issue because:
1) I hope to be enlightened in this issue
2) Since nowadays there are no more permanent or life-long jobs/careers, how can a household (both wife & husband) not worry constantly on this huge debt? This huge debt is permanently and real, while jobs/careers are dynamically changing. Suppose a newly wed couple is approximately 25 years old and by the time the loan is repaid, both are probably more than 50 years old each? Seems to be one is borned to study till 20+ and worry & work till old. Life is fixed in this way??? -
Originally posted by thinker:
Migrate lor... why you think so many people migrate. You want your children to suffer like that? Exploited by the dictators? The problem is that the poor cannot migrate and the very rich no point migrating.
I am rising this issue because:
1) I hope to be enlightened in this issue
2) Since nowadays there are no more permanent or life-long jobs/careers, how can a household (both wife & husband) not worry constantly on this huge debt? This [b]huge debt is permanently and real, while jobs/careers are dynamically changing. Suppose a newly wed couple is approximately 25 years old and by the time the loan is repaid, both are probably more than 50 years old each? Seems to be one is borned to study till 20+ and worry & work till old. Life is fixed in this way??? [/b] -
I don't encourage migration.Originally posted by casino_king:Migrate lor... why you think so many people migrate. You want your children to suffer like that? Exploited by the dictators? The problem is that the poor cannot migrate and the very rich no point migrating.
. I am borned here & am accustomed to the life here. 
. This is not the worst place afterall.
Anyway back to the topic, is the loan going to be increased over the decades? Next time a newly couple will need more than 25 years (i.e. probably 2 generation of working life?) to repay a housing loan?? No solution at all?
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Originally posted by thinker:I have a very big ? on housing (part of livelihood) here:
I hear from 1st generation sgporean that in the initial nation building stage where HDB is implemented, it usually take less than 10 years for a household (single working person) to repay fully the loan taken.
In this current time, I observed that nowadays a HDB loan requires a household (2 person, both wife and husband) & usually 20~25 years or more of working life to complete the repayment.
Base on this observation:
1) Aren't we turning worst? Most households (husband & wife) need to continue to work and worry till the completion of the Housing loan? This indirectly also cause other social problems on the next generation.
2) It seems that we are indulging in larger and larger housing debt and using more of future $ to fuel our current needs and expenditure?
Someone pls advise me. I got a sense that part of our progression is using future $ to fuel our current needs. I have no economic education background, but anyone with common sense will find this weird, right?
You are right in this. People should know about this too.
During GCT era, he allowed HDB prices to rise close to that of private condos.
And general property prices increased as well.
His marketing gimmick was that HDB owners will thus be richer,
when their property prices increase.
(He had Switzerland as role model then, when we are so much more to catchup)
However, when property prices increase, salary and businesses cost have
to increase.
Thus overall cost of living increased, and sometimes rather unproportionally.
(HDB make the most profit along the way.)
And this indirectly results in less cost competiveness compared to taiwan, korea, china, india, due to higher business cost and salaries.
Thus the problems we have now, is partly, if not largely, due to this single factor.
In other words, it was a BIG MISTAKE that PAP had made.
And now, add our super high vehicle/transportation cost to the picture.
And you know why we have such high business cost, salary
and thus less competiveness.
Why do you think the governemnt had run out of ideas and have to open a casino?
Why do you think government have to heavily subsidise and try retain MNCs here?
These are desparate measures infact, partly to correct wrong decisions and mistakes in the past.
The sticky issue is, high-cost of living is something that is almost irreversible.
If property prices fall alot, many people will lose money on their investments and you may see more bankrupcy. -
If you look at the trend... in the last few quarters, prices have been going up again since 2004... you think the dictators will stop it? They are the ones engineering the increase. If you have more than 1 property to sell, rejoice. If not, weep.Originally posted by thinker:I don't encourage migration. . I am borned here & am accustomed to the life here. . This is not the worst place afterall.
Anyway back to the topic, is the loan going to be increased over the decades? Next time a newly couple will need more than 25 years (i.e. probably 2 generation of working life?) to repay a housing loan?? No solution at all? -
Moreover, when general property cost rise in the past, who do you think make the most???
It is the rich who could afford to invest in other properties than their own housing. Probably MPs/Ministers like GCT himself ??
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You mean in another sense, we are employee a.k.a slaves to their gain?Originally posted by NuLife:
Moreover, when general property cost to rise,
who do you think made the most???
It is the rich who could afford to invest in other properties than
their own housing. Propably MPs/Ministers like GCT himself??
Does it also mean all the fund absorbed by the increasing loan is irregularly distributed indirectly/directly to the person/group through proper/'legal' means? -
Check this out:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=post_display&post_id=4675785 -
You are just made a sucker... everytime you get nearer after saving up all that money... wham you are hit with a gigantic bill like for inflated housing.Originally posted by thinker:You mean in another sense, we are employee a.k.a slaves to their gain?
Does it also mean all the fund absorbed by the increasing loan is irregularly distributed indirectly/directly to the person/group through proper/'legal' means?
Everybody else in the world gets affordable housing and the those who wants to get expensive housing. Not here, there is no cheap housing... the so called cheap HDB flats cost a lot more than Bangkok luxury housing.
They have the cheek to call themselves 1st world and Bangkok 3rd world government. Taksin tried to do a LKY and before he can even start; his bluff was called and thinkers like the thread starter; university lecturers and students and media people organise themselves and kicked his rich a ss. -
Hi,Originally posted by thinker:You mean in another sense, we are employee a.k.a slaves to their gain?
Does it also mean all the fund absorbed by the increasing loan is irregularly distributed indirectly/directly to the person/group through proper/'legal' means?
I dare not speculate or say too much as it is a more complex
issue when it involves finianical terms and a nation overall economy etc etc.
Not my expertise.
But generally speaking we can see where our whole life's money is
going: HDB, Car's CEO, Taxes
Which eventutally ends up in the government.
Whos suffers most, those poor and lowly educated who gets brain-washed
easily by PAP and vote for them by using carrots such as the
life-upgrading, economic restructure packages,
without understanding long-term nation-wide implications. -
Why you take so long to pay? Ten years considered long leh.
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To me, LIFE is not getting any better if
- Tangible
1) DEBTS is mounting
2) Expenditure increases
3) $ decrease
- Intangible
1) Stress & worry mounting
2) promoting selfish mindset
3) humanity turns worst -
Just observed the promise and noise made by the ruling party:
- Lift Upgrading
- More useless parks
- Rising Cost cannot be controlled
- Useless Attack on A Minority over submission of forms
- Discrimination on the untested Opposition Candidates when all the ruling candidates have zero political experiences
- No one dare to mentioned about NKF.
The people will be paying for the Billion Dollars Bill for the Upgrade.
So, for the next five years, prepare to search your dustbin for Aluminium can for spare cash. -
Just ask yourself very simple question; if PAP is so good as they claim, why am I made to apy so much more for housing and transport compared to my comtempories in the neigbouring countries? Pay ministers so much to sit on their a ss and not solve these problems. Time to get in opposition to make them sit up.
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This month, when all the media is reporting the economics is the best in past 8 years, I just received a letter from bank, that the interest is raised, my monthly payment for my house increased by 37%!. my god, will my income raised 37% accordingly?
Of course, from the economics view, it's reasonable to raise the interest, but the reality is that if you are paying your house by installment, you will suffer badly. -
When the govt launched the asset enhancement scheme during the mid 90's, just imagine the liquidity flooding the pty mkt from the CPF coffer. All pty prices sky-rocketed like no 2morrow.Originally posted by thinker:I have a very big ? on housing (part of livelihood) here:
I hear from 1st generation sgporean that in the initial nation building stage where HDB is implemented, it usually take less than 10 years for a household (single working person) to repay fully the loan taken.
In this current time, I observed that nowadays a HDB loan requires a household (2 person, both wife and husband) & usually 20~25 years or more of working life to complete the repayment.
Base on this observation:
1) Aren't we turning worst? Most households (husband & wife) need to continue to work and worry till the completion of the Housing loan? This indirectly also cause other social problems on the next generation.
2) It seems that we are indulging in larger and larger housing debt and using more of future $ to fuel our current needs and expenditure?
Someone pls advise me. I got a sense that part of our progression is using future $ to fuel our current needs. I have no economic education background, but anyone with common sense will find this weird, right?
Queues for new HDB flats soared and Suppy & Demand rules kicked in, all new flats price also soared regardless of location.
The intention of using CPF for retirement is ready abused just for the sake of Swiss or "Switch" standard of living.
All HDB flat owners until today are mainly using CPF to manage the mortgages. Just imagine if the govt only allows 5% of CPF to use for housing, do U think the flats would cost so high? No one in the right mind would spend substantial part of their salary to pay the pty in cash and sacrifice other expenses
HDB has already set a floor price for all pty in S'pore. In fact, it is difficult to reverse the process and they are in dilema to solve the pty problems.
If reduce price too fast, pty market would crash and all banks here would be affected. The financial sector is the nerve center of every country and the govt would not allow it to be shaken.
just my 2 cents worth. -
I can see clearly CPF retirement cash savings end up in someone else's coffers.
And if they keep raising the bar, it'll just empty the CPF account and could even set one back in debts.
Is it really worth it to deplete yr CPF account just to get HDB flat?
Who's the true culprit? Maybe the uncalculating buyer.
Never forget caveat emptor.
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Blindly persuing Swiss standard without staring into the MirrorOriginally posted by quickstart:..just for the sake of Swiss or "Switch" standard of living.
and understand what 'class' PAP is made of.
GCT, GCT...
PAP, PAP...