MM Lee wants Singaporeans...
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I never understood how we could have Speak mandarin campaigns here in singapore. Does the government realise that by having Speak mandarin campaigns they are actually using taxpayers money to improve one communitys language. In that case we should also have Speak Bahasa Melayu campaigns, Speak Tamil campaign, Speak Eurasian Campaign etc. We cant use taxpayers money to soley improve languagae constraints of a single community. It does not make sense!Originally posted by ShutterBug:After decades of Speak Mandarin Campagne, we now have an over-supply of people who speaks Singlish-English with a strong Mandarin accent.
It will take quite a while to reverse this damage.
Back in my school days, Mandarin as a 2nd language was something we all had to reckon with in order to progress in school. So many of us, myself and my fellow classmates, suffered academically because of this.
Now, HE is making a U-turn urging us to speak "world standard English", and Mandarin is no longer a compulsary subject to ace in order to progress. Now the alphabet 'Z' is pronouced as "zee", but when I pronouced it back in the early 70s I was sternly corrected to pronounce it as "zat".
I come from a family of Peranakan bloodline, we largely speak English and Teochew or Malay at home, while I mostly converse and communicate in
English or Teochew.
How do you think I feel about all this crap?? I feel like one of their many subjects of experimentation!! -
dialects affect language ability?
we have not had any dialect programmes for decades. yet our chinese and english standard is only ordinary. -
I believe this mandarin campagne is all about sucking up to the rise of China.Originally posted by gill_hfc:I never understood how we could have Speak mandarin campaigns here in singapore. Does the government realise that by having Speak mandarin campaigns they are actually using taxpayers money to improve one communitys language. In that case we should also have Speak Bahasa Melayu campaigns, Speak Tamil campaign, Speak Eurasian Campaign etc. We cant use taxpayers money to soley improve languagae constraints of a single community. It does not make sense! -
MM Lee also encouraged young Chinese Sporean to learn Bahasa Melayu during the aftermath of the Tsunami.Originally posted by gill_hfc:I never understood how we could have Speak mandarin campaigns here in singapore. Does the government realise that by having Speak mandarin campaigns they are actually using taxpayers money to improve one communitys language. In that case we should also have Speak Bahasa Melayu campaigns, Speak Tamil campaign, Speak Eurasian Campaign etc. We cant use taxpayers money to soley improve languagae constraints of a single community. It does not make sense! -
aiya...to sum up....whatever asian language we must learn arh........Originally posted by will4:MM Lee also encouraged young Chinese Sporean to learn Bahasa Melayu during the aftermath of the Tsunami. -
It isn't about ordinariness of the spoken English or command of the English language, but rather, the ability to swicth fluidly between dialects, and English.Originally posted by dragg:dialects affect language ability?
we have not had any dialect programmes for decades. yet our chinese and english standard is only ordinary.
But people here, thanks to Mandarin Campagne, have gotten way too comfy with Mandarin and allowed English language to become a stumbling block. I have come across service providers in the commercial retail industry, who dares say to me; "Sorry sir, we no speak Engerish, you can call someone speak Mandarin to call and ask for you?" This was Stamford Tyres at Lokyang Road.
As it stands now, sales staff in shopping centers islandwide, assumes that you speak Mandarin and automatically greets you and ask if you need help in Mandarin.
As such, how are we to improve on English? Or rather, how long will it take people at large to acknowledge the imprtance of commanding reasonable spoken & written English laguage.
MM says that it is to our advantage to have sound grasps of Mandarin, but really, HOW MANY of us are actually venturing into China???? The younger generation in China are gravitating towards English (American English) - and we're supposed to gain their welcome by speaking Mandarin????
What kind of logic is this?? I don't hear that Germans in Germany expects visitors to speak German, or Japanese in Japan insists we speak Japanese to be well accepted, or even America to expect Mandarin or Cantonese speaking investors to speak American English to do business with them??
Why should China be allowed to be so high-handed??? Who the heck are they??? Big in economy SO WHAT? Everything has its ups and downs, what goes up, surely will come down. Nothing in this world is forever.
Therefore I say, this Mandarin issue should be an option to individuals. Not something we allow to be shoved down our throats as well.
English is important, as it is the main international language in every industry. -
It's the same experience that I have, despite tons of tuition, I barely scraped through my MT at both the Os and As, in fact, it took me three times to pass it at the As.Originally posted by ShutterBug:After decades of Speak Mandarin Campagne, we now have an over-supply of people who speaks Singlish-English with a strong Mandarin accent.
It will take quite a while to reverse this damage.
Back in my school days, Mandarin as a 2nd language was something we all had to reckon with in order to progress in school. So many of us, myself and my fellow classmates, suffered academically because of this.
Now, HE is making a U-turn urging us to speak "world standard English", and Mandarin is no longer a compulsary subject to ace in order to progress. Now the alphabet 'Z' is pronouced as "zee", but when I pronouced it back in the early 70s I was sternly corrected to pronounce it as "zat".
I come from a family of Peranakan bloodline, we largely speak English and Teochew or Malay at home, while I mostly converse and communicate in
English or Teochew.
How do you think I feel about all this crap?? I feel like one of their many subjects of experimentation!!
I'm of Borneo and Straits Peranakan heritage, even my Hokkien is smattered with Malay phrases...and my family took Malay as their mother tongue back from the days of the British.
It's a guinea pig world, and with all these campaigns changing year after year, it's looking very much like a circus.
I think -
Its true that some sales rep are more fluent in Madarin than in English but it would not be fair to attribute that to the Mandarin Speaking Campaign. It just so happen that they are either brought up in a Mandarin/dialect domineering family or simply just not good in English.Originally posted by ShutterBug:It isn't about ordinariness of the spoken English or command of the English language, but rather, the ability to swicth fluidly between dialects, and English.
But people here, thanks to Mandarin Campagne, have gotten way too comfy with Mandarin and allowed English language to become a stumbling block. I have come across service providers in the commercial retail industry, who dares say to me; "Sorry sir, we no speak Engerish, you can call someone speak Mandarin to call and ask for you?" This was Stamford Tyres at Lokyang Road.
As it stands now, sales staff in shopping centers islandwide, assumes that you speak Mandarin and automatically greets you and ask if you need help in Mandarin.
As such, how are we to improve on English? Or rather, how long will it take people at large to acknowledge the imprtance of commanding reasonable spoken & written English laguage.
MM says that it is to our advantage to have sound grasps of Mandarin, but really, HOW MANY of us are actually venturing into China???? The younger generation in China are gravitating towards English (American English) - and we're supposed to gain their welcome by speaking Mandarin????
What kind of logic is this?? I don't hear that Germans in Germany expects visitors to speak German, or Japanese in Japan insists we speak Japanese to be well accepted, or even America to expect Mandarin or Cantonese speaking investors to speak American English to do business with them??
Why should China be allowed to be so high-handed??? Who the heck are they??? Big in economy SO WHAT? Everything has its ups and downs, what goes up, surely will come down. Nothing in this world is forever.
Therefore I say, this Mandarin issue should be an option to individuals. Not something we allow to be shoved down our throats as well.
English is important, as it is the main international language in every industry.
Although I must agree with you that Mandarin should be an option rather than a compulsory subject, I for one am thankful that Mandarin was shoved down my academic throat during my younger days. Many Singaporeans are becoming highly valued for employment in the PRC and HK because of their strong command of English as well as their ability to communicate in Chinese (both spoken and written). We do have an edge over many of our ethnic Chinese counterparts in Asia in that respect.
The size and growth of the Chinese economy is an opportunity for us to tap in. If you are big enough, you can afford to be high handed too. That's the law of the jungle. At the moment the PRC is on the ascendancy and even if that is not forever, I will live for that moment to fatten my own purse. Why let the opportunity slip by?
I know many Chinese who have acknowledged their inability to communicate well in English which is why overseas service providers go all out to communicate with them in Mandarin. On the other hand, the younger generation, whilst increasingly adept in speaking English, tends to prefer to communicate in Mandarin. I do long for the day when they are able to read English documents as well as Singaporeans. But that would mean Singaporeans like me would have outlived our usefulness in the PRC.
edit: typo -
bilingual. easier said than done.
everyone of us can claim able to speak at least 3 languages,
mandarin , english and dialet. but how many of us can claim we can speak and write them well?
i can say my command of english not as good as MM lee but my mandarin speaking capability is definitely better than him. he cant start the ball rolling how to ask us to start.
BG george yeo only start to polish his third class mandarin when aljunied was on the verge of losing to WP. mah bo tan mandarin can hardly be understand.
visit china say learn mandarin impt. go UK say singaporean must speak good english.
Korean , Jap, HK, Taiwan dont speak much english, yet they are doing OK. either something wrong with our economy structure or something wrong with him. -
our leaders speak one of the worst chinese.
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ah ok. well call, but see if u can make it discreet. i'll tell u the connection later privatelyOriginally posted by LazerLordz:hmm, well I can easily confirm.Will just call this friend of mine, and I'll know if its her.
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forget being bilingual. Can singaporeans just master ONE language? Nevermind that my mandrin sucks, its enough for me to converse with PRC chinese. But at least my english is of a fairly good standard. Ok sure it sucks when the briths keep wondering if I'm from USA(yuck who wants to be a yank) but hey at least they can understand me well.Originally posted by reyes:bilingual. easier said than done.
everyone of us can claim able to speak at least 3 languages,
mandarin , english and dialet. but how many of us can claim we can speak and write them well?
i can say my command of english not as good as MM lee but my mandarin speaking capability is definitely better than him. he cant start the ball rolling how to ask us to start.
BG george yeo only start to polish his third class mandarin when aljunied was on the verge of losing to WP. mah bo tan mandarin can hardly be understand.
visit china say learn mandarin impt. go UK say singaporean must speak good english.
Korean , Jap, HK, Taiwan dont speak much english, yet they are doing OK. either something wrong with our economy structure or something wrong with him. -
mm very good at sucking the balls of world powers hor... one minute chuck chinese aside when the US was vital to the security of his interests during the cold war, now suck china's sweet and sour balls as they rise.
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Originally posted by vito_corleone:mm very good at sucking the balls of world powers hor... one minute chuck chinese aside when the US was vital to the security of his interests during the cold war, now suck china's sweet and sour balls as they rise. no choice what......
what to do? -
I'm bilingual although i'm more of an engilsh potato. Say ratio - eng : chi = 80:20. but i can speak relatively good and fluent madarin and can still recognise and read chinese words/characters.
both sides of my family are english-speaking. and the only people i speak madarin and dialect to are my 2 grandmas. So i guess, that kinda helped too.
honestly speaking, the speak madarin campaign is totally stupid as now, so many people in China are indeed picking up English to catch up with those western and european countries.
Morever, English is an international language. It's the gateway to mass communication. Like what is expected of mass comm students; your english must be good.
but the pathetic thing about 70% of S'poreans, is that they are f*ckin' chee-nas and the standard of english they have and use is such a disgrace that i wouldn't call myself a Singaporean.
Let's just say there's segragation everywhere. English-oriented people would call chinese-oriented people chee-nas. and chinese-oriented people would call english-oriented people snobbish 'potatoes' (kentangs). We can never shed the images and perceptions.
And AMPs (angmoh pai or kentangs, english-oriented people) would associate with anything liberal and chee-nas (chinese-oriented people) would the opp.
To be strongly bi-lingual is difficult but it's possible. I can say i'm extremely versatile in communicating with people from all walks of life. Sometimes, i would converse in perfect english esp. to foreigners/prcs from western countries/china or eastern countries respectively. In that way, i wouldn't be disgracing anyone or displaying my pathetically poor articulation if i have any. (which obviously i do not)
I feel sorry for chinese-oriented fools, cause they can never communicate well with people from western countries. The 'lahs' and 'lehs' and 'paiseh', (Singlish) etc and broken english or heavily chinese-accented english is so damn irritating and purely displaying their ignorance and also badly reflects on how 'successful' our education system is (regarding language teachers and teaching of english).
During my parents' time, their teacher made it a point to drill their grammar well into their head. And they have no problems in articulation, or construction of correct sentences. Now that the system have changed, some teachers are even worse than the students! They communicate in broken english, Singlish or heavily-accented English. How disgraceful!
Speaking about Singlish as a national identity; we already have enough national identities. We don't need one more disgraceful one.
Why do we deem English more superior than Chinese/Mandarin?
Just take a look at those kids; the ah bengs/ ah lians, minahs/mats, anjacs, etc.
Their English is absolutely terrible. And their common language is chinese/mandarin. And when they try to 'impress' someone with their 'excellent' english, they would be making a fool of themselves; a total laughing stock. So who the hell wanna be like them??!!! -
u come live in UK and u'll find that its not just singaporeans who are guilty of 'excellent' english.Originally posted by trendz:Why do we deem English more superior than Chinese/Mandarin?
Just take a look at those kids; the ah bengs/ ah lians, minahs/mats, anjacs, etc.
Their English is absolutely terrible. And their common language is chinese/mandarin. And when they try to 'impress' someone with their 'excellent' english, they would be making a fool of themselves; a total laughing stock. So who the hell wanna be like them??!!!
ever heard cockney english? essex accents? midlands? chav-speak?
even the english can't get their language right -
American way of speaking English has always been a problem to me. I just can't understand what are they trying to say in some of their shows if there are no subtitles
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While this particular report on what the MM has said is not wrong, the MM has been incorrect in his prejudiced attitude to langauage which has been hurtful to whole generations of students.Originally posted by ^spidee^:BEIJING: Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew says Singapore should ensure all Singaporeans have a command of world standard English.
And if they are Chinese Singaporeans, they should be able to converse clearly in Mandarin.
MM Lee was speaking at a meeting with Singaporean professionals and students based in Beijing on Thursday.
- CNA/ir
On the importance of mandarin:
1. The Chinese don't need people to speak to them in Mandarin, they just prefer people who are clear thinking.
2. The mandarin we have is not exactly the same - they have difficulty understanding
3. Dialect is a better choice for business because it opens doors
Also, we have left entire generations now who don't understand even simple Malay - well, how do we communicate with both the north and southern neighbours.
With all due respect, he is not an expert in this area, and one really wishes that he would not beat this gong anymore and essentially leave it to the chosen minister/s to make their decisions - and not even try and influence them. -
MM Lee, should really retire. Because too many cooks, spoils the soup.Originally posted by ubuntu:While this particular report on what the MM has said is not wrong, the MM has been incorrect in his prejudiced attitude to langauage which has been hurtful to whole generations of students.
On the importance of mandarin:
1. The Chinese don't need people to speak to them in Mandarin, they just prefer people who are clear thinking.
2. The mandarin we have is not exactly the same - they have difficulty understanding
3. Dialect is a better choice for business because it opens doors
Also, we have left entire generations now who don't understand even simple Malay - well, how do we communicate with both the north and southern neighbours.
With all due respect, he is not an expert in this area, and one really wishes that he would not beat this gong anymore and essentially leave it to the chosen minister/s to make their decisions - and not even try and influence them. -
Have you ever worked in China before? I have business dealings with the Chinese and in my experience, I have the advantage because I speak Mandarin. Unlike my western colleagues, I can read their legal contracts myself and I can email them in Chinese on a Sunday morning.Originally posted by ubuntu:While this particular report on what the MM has said is not wrong, the MM has been incorrect in his prejudiced attitude to langauage which has been hurtful to whole generations of students.
On the importance of mandarin:
1. The Chinese don't need people to speak to them in Mandarin, they just prefer people who are clear thinking.
2. The mandarin we have is not exactly the same - they have difficulty understanding
3. Dialect is a better choice for business because it opens doors
Also, we have left entire generations now who don't understand even simple Malay - well, how do we communicate with both the north and southern neighbours.
With all due respect, he is not an expert in this area, and one really wishes that he would not beat this gong anymore and essentially leave it to the chosen minister/s to make their decisions - and not even try and influence them.
That gives me an advantage over western competitors. Western firms see that too: my house mate got a prime job in Beijing because he speaks and writes Chinese. He is Jewish but has a degree in classical Chinese...If anything at all, we should place more emphasis on Chinese in our schools.
There are too many Chinese dialects for one person to master but almost all Chinese business leaders will understand Mandarin...that has been China's education policy for years. As for Malay, sorry..but China is by far the greater economic power.. -
It's a personal preference.
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in most cases if you can speak fluent mndarin you have advantages in your businessor work in china. we cant deny that. dispite we can say many chinese in china re learning english but on the otherhand, many MNC are setting offices, factory in china to llearn about china in order to do well in china.
most legal documents are written in mandarin. most govt ministries speak mandarin only. if you are a business man there. who need who more?
that why in most cases, business venturing in china are mostly join venture.
for those who think english can get you anywhere, try country like Japan, korea, vietnam. -
its quite funny that people keep saying how impt mandarin in china is. i don't deny that, but SURELY those of u who work in china should also know how much PRC chinese revere non-local chinese who speak english. Things like, u get to cut long queues, people are extra polite, service minded etc. All this only confirmed a month back. And they worship the ang mohs.Originally posted by reyes:in most cases if you can speak fluent mndarin you have advantages in your businessor work in china. we cant deny that. dispite we can say many chinese in china re learning english but on the otherhand, many MNC are setting offices, factory in china to llearn about china in order to do well in china.
most legal documents are written in mandarin. most govt ministries speak mandarin only. if you are a business man there. who need who more?
that why in most cases, business venturing in china are mostly join venture.
for those who think english can get you anywhere, try country like Japan, korea, vietnam. -
they want to experience hardship posting on local terms mah, don't deny them the fun.Expatriates lead a different, less verbally colorful life, without the exotic spitting too .Originally posted by HENG@:its quite funny that people keep saying how impt mandarin in china is. i don't deny that, but SURELY those of u who work in china should also know how much PRC chinese revere non-local chinese who speak english. Things like, u get to cut long queues, people are extra polite, service minded etc. All this only confirmed a month back. And they worship the ang mohs. 
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sometimes i think this whole "promote a language" thing is such a wave, a trend thing, that disregards the actual reality of the situation. and then people all wanna jump on the bandwagon, not realising the bandwagon is being drawn by a dead donkey.Originally posted by LazerLordz:they want to experience hardship posting, don't deny them the fun.Expatriates lead a different, less verbally colorful life, without the exotic spitting too .