Violinist not allowed to defer NS
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Hah, the pang of guilty conscience strikes hard. Someone's reacting.Originally posted by iveco:Please read the Mods' comments if you do not want your IP address screened out.
Off-topic personal attacks should NEVER ever be tolerated under ALL circumstances.
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To further my point, iveco is slapping his own face.
Off-topic personal attacks
in this case should refer to his comment about banhammer looms and the wicked smiley.
If anyone deserved a warning, iveco should be the first on the receiving end. -
Troll alertOriginally posted by Nelstar:To further my point, iveco is slapping his own face.
Off-topic personal attacks in this case should refer to his comment about banhammer looms and the wicked smiley.
If anyone deserved a warning, iveco should be the first on the receiving end. 
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The paedophile is alerting to himself.Originally posted by iveco:Troll alert -
I don't know how to pull strings neither I am gifted talent. However, if this mentioned is gifted talent then he should serve NS then go and pull his strings. Gifted talent regardless of ten, twenty years later still gifted.
How to respect him if he don't love his country. Please let other countries go and accept him will also no an issue anymore. I would let him go, if he deemed fit and don't come back because of "pa pa ma ma" problems. To me, he is no more than a waterlily that followed the tide only
Will be corroded and vanished in the ocean. Go, please go, I wish you "soon hong, soon hong".. -
how come commitment to homeland must be ns?Originally posted by king108: I don't know how to pull strings neither I am gifted talent. However, if this mentioned is gifted talent then he should serve NS then go and pull his strings. Gifted talent regardless of ten, twenty years later still gifted.
How to respect him if he don't love his country. Please let other countries go and accept him will also no an issue anymore. I would let him go, if he deemed fit and don't come back because of "pa pa ma ma" problems. To me, he is no more than a waterlily that followed the tide only
Will be corroded and vanished in the ocean. Go, please go, I wish you "soon hong, soon hong".. -
Because giving up two of the best years in your life to do national service is a huge sacrifice for any 18-year-old boy, whether you are as talented as Ike or just an ordinary ah beng. In fact, a less talented person has far fewer opportunities and options available to him than a more gifted person. Selective deferment for the extraordinarily gifted penalizes the mediocre and smacks of elitism of the worst kind.Originally posted by Ito_^:how come commitment to homeland must be ns?
I do not like the current system either, but at least it is fair to all. One might consider if it is possible to allow deferment for everyone who can show proof that they are in full-time education. Even that, too, will be unfair for those who have to undertake part-time studies for financial and other reasons. There are also others who wish to defer NS because of family and personal reasons eg. sick parents, young children etc.
One alternative solution is to take some ideas from Sweden and Taiwan...Every able-bodied male must complete his NS liability but he can serve anytime between the ages of 17 and 30. That window is generous enough to accommodate the educational and personal needs of Singaporeans.
I am also in favour for NS of some form for women but that is a separate issue. -
2nd warning to all.....
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Originally posted by Ito_^:how come commitment to homeland must be ns? I don't know how to love my country with completiness if I don't serve my national service..
I studied no much..I thought it's a sacred duty for all singaporean.. -
the swedes love their military service and country..as for singapore...yes we all know the case. between 17 and 30 if it were me and i got admitted into an institution overseas hell i'd never come back and im sure i'm just one amongst tens of thousands who share the same sentiments.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Because giving up two of the best years in your life to do national service is a huge sacrifice for any 18-year-old boy, whether you are as talented as Ike or just an ordinary ah beng. In fact, a less talented person has far fewer opportunities and options available to him than a more gifted person. Selective deferment for the extraordinarily gifted penalizes the mediocre and smacks of elitism of the worst kind.
I do not like the current system either, but at least it is fair to all. One might consider if it is possible to allow deferment for everyone who can show proof that they are in full-time education. Even that, too, will be unfair for those who have to undertake part-time studies for financial and other reasons. There are also others who wish to defer NS because of family and personal reasons eg. sick parents, young children etc.
One alternative solution is to take some ideas from Sweden and Taiwan...Every able-bodied male must complete his NS liability but he can serve anytime between the ages of 17 and 30. That window is generous enough to accommodate the educational and personal needs of Singaporeans.
I am also in favour for NS of some form for women but that is a separate issue. -
How do you propose to defend this dot?Originally posted by Ito_^:how come commitment to homeland must be ns? -
In a way I do not blame MINDEF for not wanting to allow his deferment and my best guess is that MINDEF is afraid that he will not come back after deferment cos he might be so attracted to greener pastures overseas.
It all boils down to my previous question, can Ike give a 100% guarantee that he will come back to serve? -
I agree a more flexible system like those used by the swedes is better. As for women doing NS, the best vocation for them would be ER nurses. SMM can open up a course specially for them, and they will be enlisted directly there. Of course, exit controls should apply to them as well. It isn't fair that girls have unbridled freedom to go anywhere they want as and when they like, while their male counterparts are tied down by the burden of national defence.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Because giving up two of the best years in your life to do national service is a huge sacrifice for any 18-year-old boy, whether you are as talented as Ike or just an ordinary ah beng. In fact, a less talented person has far fewer opportunities and options available to him than a more gifted person. Selective deferment for the extraordinarily gifted penalizes the mediocre and smacks of elitism of the worst kind.
I do not like the current system either, but at least it is fair to all. One might consider if it is possible to allow deferment for everyone who can show proof that they are in full-time education. Even that, too, will be unfair for those who have to undertake part-time studies for financial and other reasons. There are also others who wish to defer NS because of family and personal reasons eg. sick parents, young children etc.
One alternative solution is to take some ideas from Sweden and Taiwan...Every able-bodied male must complete his NS liability but he can serve anytime between the ages of 17 and 30. That window is generous enough to accommodate the educational and personal needs of Singaporeans.
I am also in favour for NS of some form for women but that is a separate issue. -
one violinist, or even one pianist for that matter, doesn't really matter to Singapore ... even if he turns out to be the next beethoven or mozart ... nobody in Singapore will starve if he absconds, nor does anyone in mindef or the society gives a rat's ass if he does not intend to stay in Singapore forever ... in the end, it's about equality ... I put in my two AND HALF years of my golden decade, the peak of my life, getting only my bachelors when my peers in other countries are already finishing up their masters or have already spent a few years in the work force ... but I do not bemoan the time spent (nor the fact that my shoulder injuries will never allow me to play tennis or badminton every again) this is the burden of citizenship, a price to be paid,... all I ask, is that there be fair and equitable distribution of this burden, else it'll make a mockery of the rest of us.Originally posted by THE ANALYST:In a way I do not blame MINDEF for not wanting to allow his deferment and my best guess is that MINDEF is afraid that he will not come back after deferment cos he might be so attracted to greener pastures overseas.
It all boils down to my previous question, can Ike give a 100% guarantee that he will come back to serve? -
So Fatum,
may I know what is your main point of your post and do you agree/disagree with what I posted and do you oppose/support what I posted?
Feel free to state your feelings, I am generally an open person. -
my reply is just specific to that particular post alone, sorry, I didn't quite catch your previous ones ... I was pre-occupied with that chap with a racial inferiority complex ....Originally posted by THE ANALYST:So Fatum,
may I know what is your main point of your post and do you agree/disagree with what I posted and do you oppose/support what I posted?
Feel free to state your feelings, I am generally an open person.
my point is just that ... it's about equality and not about the chap ... mindef is not going to miss him in particular, or anyone in general, mindef's task is to make sure that we have enough manpower to keep the green machine running, it's not in the business of cultivating the arts (or the sciences) in Singapore .... if he decides to head for greener pastures, before or after NS, no one is going to stop him ..... not mindef, nor any Singaporeans ... but his time is up, it's time to pay his dues ...
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Well, so far I guess everyone involved in this discussion is of 2 camps. One being in favour of letting Ike defer NS for his music studies. The other (which I happen to be strongly supportive) is to get him to serve first before he leaves overseas.
In view of that, why not let us take a poll and see what is the result. Let me start the ball rolling. Let's be civilised about this and not call anyone names. Everyone is entitled to his/her vote. The end results while does not necessay represent the general public, it will give us some ideas what is the general sentiments on this matter.
Allow Ike defer his NS for music studies: 0 vote
Do not allow Ike defer his NS for music studies: 1 vote (mfscrewu) -
Allow Ike defer his NS for music studies: 0 vote
Do not allow Ike defer his NS for music studies: 2 vote (mfscrewu) (Anti-ruleSS) -
Originally posted by iveco:As for women doing NS,
It isn't fair that girls have unbridled freedom to go anywhere they want as and when they like, while their male counterparts are tied down by the burden of national defence. Forgive me to selectively quote, I think singapore girls are great, they too love singapore. I definitely respected them.
Our 1st Lady was from the Army, every singapore girls should learn from her as a model in real life.
I said she is great. -
That NS only takes 2 years of one's life is a common misconception.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Because giving up two of the best years in your life to do national service is a huge sacrifice for any 18-year-old boy, whether you are as talented as Ike or just an ordinary ah beng. In fact, a less talented person has far fewer opportunities and options available to him than a more gifted person. Selective deferment for the extraordinarily gifted penalizes the mediocre and smacks of elitism of the worst kind.
I do not like the current system either, but at least it is fair to all. One might consider if it is possible to allow deferment for everyone who can show proof that they are in full-time education. Even that, too, will be unfair for those who have to undertake part-time studies for financial and other reasons. There are also others who wish to defer NS because of family and personal reasons eg. sick parents, young children etc.
One alternative solution is to take some ideas from Sweden and Taiwan...Every able-bodied male must complete his NS liability but he can serve anytime between the ages of 17 and 30. That window is generous enough to accommodate the educational and personal needs of Singaporeans.
I am also in favour for NS of some form for women but that is a separate issue.
In truth, NS is a relatively life long committment because upon completion, one will be periodically recalled to serve reservist up to your late 30s and early 40s depending on the situation. A necessary requirement to maintain combat readiness.
The issue with 'barring' Ike from pursuing a dream is the ripple-effect of self-righteous Singaporeans and their narrow-minded beliefs, forcing the govt's hand to enact new punitive laws across the board without taking into account the extraordinary circumstances.
It's a shame that Ike's pursuit of his first love: Music, has been ruthlessly put in a NATION's perspective and tossed about like kopitiam talk. People seem to forget that he is asking for a DEFERMENT, and not DEFAULTING NS. -
You have completely missed the point. I have no issue with deferment provided it is deferment available to all, not just to a handful of elite because they can play the piano or the violin. I do not see how their musical skills are so crucial for the running of the SAF that we have to make them an exception.Originally posted by BillyBong:That NS only takes 2 years of one's life is a common misconception.
In truth, NS is a relatively life long committment because upon completion, one will be periodically recalled to serve reservist up to your late 30s and early 40s depending on the situation. A necessary requirement to maintain combat readiness.
The issue with 'barring' Ike from pursuing a dream is the ripple-effect of self-righteous Singaporeans and their narrow-minded beliefs, forcing the govt's hand to enact new punitive laws across the board without taking into account the extraordinary circumstances.
It's a shame that Ike's pursuit of his first love: Music, has been ruthlessly put in a NATION's perspective and tossed about like kopitiam talk. People seem to forget that he is asking for a DEFERMENT, and not DEFAULTING NS. -
I never 'accused' you of being anti-deferment in the first place.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You have completely missed the point. I have no issue with deferment provided it is deferment available to all, not just to a handful of elite because they can play the piano or the violin. I do not see how their musical skills are so crucial for the running of the SAF that we have to make them an exception.
Why the defensive stand?
Until the passing of the new act to increase the punitive barriers to deferments, this option was available to almost all with legitimate reasons such as reading medicine, overseas studies, scholarships etc etc. Ike's case
= scholarship so under those circumstances, it would have been a simple case of filling up the paperwork and awaiting approval.
Unfortuately, his case comes at a bad time, especially after a couple of letters to the FORUM inpunged the reputation of a gifted Pianist on a national scale and brought to light the ugly side of people who staunchly support harsh measures to those who 'default'.
On the other hand, you seem to have fallen into the trap that those who 'skip' NS fall into the 'elite' catagory, which is again is speculative.
The govt is simply trying to move carefully so as not to antagonize public sentiment. I believe the ultimate decision after appealing should be a green light for Ike.
Any other decision and we will become the laughing stock of the international community.
Our grandiose claims to 'world-class' hinge on this outcome. -
have you ever served NS before ? ...Originally posted by BillyBong:I never 'accused' you of being anti-deferment in the first place.
Why the defensive stand?
Until the passing of the new act to increase the punitive barriers to deferments, this option was available to almost all with legitimate reasons such as reading medicine, overseas studies, scholarships etc etc. Ike's case
= scholarship so under those circumstances, it would have been a simple case of filling up the paperwork and awaiting approval.
Unfortuately, his case comes at a bad time, especially after a couple of letters to the FORUM inpunged the reputation of a gifted Pianist on a national scale and brought to light the ugly side of people who staunchly support harsh measures to those who 'default'.
On the other hand, you seem to have fallen into the trap that those who 'skip' NS fall into the 'elite' catagory, which is again is speculative.
The govt is simply trying to move carefully so as not to antagonize public sentiment. I believe the ultimate decision after appealing should be a green light for Ike.
Any other decision and we will become the laughing stock of the international community.
Our grandiose claims to 'world-class' hinge on this outcome. -
If he is a PR or foreigner living here, he will not face such problem. So what kind of fairness are you talking about here? Being A Singaporean, you are constrained by your obligation to your nation. I am not against NS, I am fully for the national defence. But seeing so many foreigners can easily become citizens without the NS nor ICT obligations really make me envy them. And best, they enjoy the same benefits, including the progress package (if I am not wrong). Why can't we make them serve ICT at the civil defence? At least we are talking about fairness now that all natural Singaporeans or "converted" Singaporeans do play some parts in the national defence. Giving the NS Men some releft is not sufficient - not even enough to have a decent meal. And what about those "converted" Singaporeans who did not convert their children's citizenship? They are keeping an alternative exit. Do you think they will stay here to fight for our country during emergency? They will claim that they did not serve NS and hence do not know how to shoot.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I do not like the current system either, but at least it is fair to all. -
I not a very pro-pap guy, but on this point I fully agree with you. NS have to be fair, if there's to be deferment let it be for all. Everyone has a talent, be it in musical or any others for that matter. You can be a great plumber, nurse, even house-husband, it's all a talent. But when it comes to NS, everyone must know it's a sacrifice. To be interrupted in the prime of your life, is something nobody would want. I feel sorry for the boy too and I wish him all the best, but he must know that want Singapore ask from him is something asked of for all the males in Singapore.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You have completely missed the point. I have no issue with deferment provided it is deferment available to all, not just to a handful of elite because they can play the piano or the violin. I do not see how their musical skills are so crucial for the running of the SAF that we have to make them an exception.