Violinist not allowed to defer NS
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There is also a rule indicating a pre -enlistee need to furnish a bod ofOriginally posted by LazerLordz:If Korea, a nation technically still at war, can have a period of enlistment lasting a decade, there is no reason why we cannot..
No one is exempting him from NS, and will it cause anyone sleepless nights if he enlists at 27?Sure, he will enlist now at 19 and probably leave for greener pastures after he has ORDed, knowing there is nothing here worth serving for.
Artistic types have very long memory, you cast them out once, and they will remember you for life.
Somehow, if we are to keep our talents here, better show them that we value them.We have penalties, we are supposed to gravitate to being a developed society, but all I see are witch-hunts appearing once more.
Ask yourselves if you put on your uniform to defend narrowminded interests or to create a society where pluralism exists.I'm more inclined to think I served my time so that others may have the privilege to grow in their own way safely.
But sadly, most people cannot grasp the concept of real service.
seventy thousand to go abroad to study. If he ran away, take away his
money. -
Precisely.Originally posted by will4:There is also a rule indicating a pre -enlistee need to furnish a bod of
seventy thousand to go abroad to study. If he ran away, take away his
money.
Oh well, if this nation wants to sink itself in the long run, go right ahead. Sometimes, giving a fucking damn about it only serves to bring misery to the self. -
For goodness' sake... just let the guy go and get his education overseas, and make him sign an undertaking to ensure that he returns to Singapore eventually to do his NS liability. Warn him that if he were to ever default on NS he would be subject to full prosecution to the full extent of the law upon stepping on Singapore's shores again.
He's talented, but that does not make him an elite. Elitism is all about favouring one type of people over the other on virtue of birthright or wealth. In this case, it's due to his ability. That does not make him an elite in any way.
You may say that if he's so good, his ability will not diminish after two years of NS. Well, let me ask you: are you a good violinist yourself? Otherwise you're in no position to be judging his ability.
And it's not as if every single mother's son is going to default on his NS liability just because we grant deferment to one person. I will willingly stay back and hold the fort for this one guy so long as he promises to return one day.
You may say it's unfair to let one guy defer his NS, but I say it's even more unfair to prevent a talented person from fully realising his dreams. It's really hypocritical to say that we should develop our arts scene locally and yet deprive this one person from nurturing his abilities in the arts.
So Lazerlordz, count me in as another NSman who supports giving this guy deferment. -
Hahaha...Originally posted by BillyBong:I view elitism or 'elite' as a group of individuals who, through birth status or inherited power, consider themselves several rungs up the ladder, and manipulate their considerable influence to shape factors to their benefit. Compared to the peasants, they are afforded special privileges (or unfair advantages) that flow with their position.
Humpty Dumpty: When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.
Alice: The question is, whether you can make words mean so many different things.
(Through the Looking Glass, Lewis Carroll)
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well ... I like to think I'm an egalitarian too ... that nobody is more equal than others, and that we are all talented and gifte in some ways ....
and as I've said, it's not about him absconding or defaulting a la Melvin Tan if he's granted deferrment ... the SAF won't collaspe if one string twanger runs away ... but it's about the system ....
count me as one of those against granting him deferment ... -
Unfortunately there are people here who do not see far enough.
If you allow someone to defer for music lessons, you must allow others to defer for cooking courses, law courses, gardening courses...the list goes on. How do you decide who is gifted enough and who is not? The one who gets accepted in Oxbridge or Ivy league collages should be given deferment over those with places in NUS/NTU or the polytechnics?
The nation is making biotech the 4th pillar of our economy. Arguably that is more vital to Singapore than some pianist or violinist...so we should defer those who take biotech courses?
What about the sob sob stories of those who need to earn a decent income to support their families with elderly parents and young children? Sorry, but they are not gifted enough?? -
I agree..Originally posted by Fatum:well ... I like to think I'm an egalitarian too ... that nobody is more equal than others, and that we are all talented and gifte in some ways ....
and as I've said, it's not about him absconding or defaulting a la Melvin Tan if he's granted deferrment ... the SAF won't collaspe if one string twanger runs away ... but it's about the system ....
count me as one of those against granting him deferment ...
I prefer a system allowing everyone to serve anytime between 18 and 30 but until the system is changed, it must be applied equally to all. -
For all you know, after he goes there (be it before or after serving), he could jolly well not be coming back. Afterall, at the moment, with a music qualifications, what can he do in Singapore? There are more opportunities in the west for him. While most of us probably won't lose any sleep regardless of what age he enlisted, but it definitely caused a lot of disatisfaction that the law have been bent once more.Originally posted by LazerLordz:No one is exempting him from NS, and will it cause anyone sleepless nights if he enlists at 27?Sure, he will enlist now at 19 and probably leave for greener pastures after he has ORDed, knowing there is nothing here worth serving for.
Many of us who have served also have good memories. Why should we be helping him defend his love ones here when he is plucking his violin string over there when he has not served? In this aspect, I admit I am selfish, I am not gracious enough to offer my head for a bullet that is intended for his family in times of war. Will someone like to offer his instead? If we are to develop towards a better society, then rules should be followed. Why can't he go and pluck his violin strings after NS. If he is really that good, he should ask the Singapore Government to award him a scholarship even if he has to give the current one up.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Artistic types have very long memory, you cast them out once, and they will remember you for life.
Somehow, if we are to keep our talents here, better show them that we value them.We have penalties, we are supposed to gravitate to being a developed society, but all I see are witch-hunts appearing once more.
When I put on my uniform, I defend what is dear to me, that is my family and friends. Most of us served our time, expecting the next generation to follow in our footstep to defend this land. I do not possess such a noble thought of protecting someone's family while he plucked his violin strings elsewhere.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Ask yourselves if you put on your uniform to defend narrowminded interests or to create a society where pluralism exists.I'm more inclined to think I served my time so that others may have the privilege to grow in their own way safely.
But sadly, most people cannot grasp the concept of real service.
All we are asking for is fairness. If the law is there to serve the purpose, why should somebody be allowed to bend it so that it can help nuture this 'talent'? What about people who due to family problems need to ask for deferment and not allowed? Is it fair to this group of people? Does it mean the daily lives of this group of people is less important than violin boy's music studies? -
If you think this government is able to identify talents outside of their own little pet biotech projects, you are seriously wanked up there.
Deferment is reserved for SAFOS and PSC, and for what reason should it not be granted to individuals?National Security? Puh-lese
It's about centering their interests, not necessarily the interests of everyone. We;ve got a long way to go, and though I agree with OM that lengthening the enlistment timeframe is good, we cannot hold back and suddenly move away.
All we are saying is that, let the man do his part for Singapore in his field, and he will be more able to live in a narrative which is not broken in representation, so that he is more likely to stay a citizen.
And I thought they were so good at playing to the emotions...
(Note: It's not only about talents, we have to allow flexible enlistments for people who have a dire need in any other aspects, be it financial or health.You want to make the best of your people, you think ahead and out of the box.Don't give the excuse of planning difficulties as a one-size fits all reason...) -
Tally the votes here. Please add accordingly. Remove your name if it is the wrong vote.
Allow Ike defer his NS for music studies: 4 votes
LazerLordz, fudgester, Kuali Baba, Coquitlam
Do not allow Ike defer his NS for music studies: 4 votes
mfscrewu, Anti-ruleSS, fatum, oxford mushroom -
the system has to change with the times. We would do well to learn from nations with conscription who are under turmoil and war..Originally posted by Fatum:well ... I like to think I'm an egalitarian too ... that nobody is more equal than others, and that we are all talented and gifte in some ways ....
and as I've said, it's not about him absconding or defaulting a la Melvin Tan if he's granted deferrment ... the SAF won't collaspe if one string twanger runs away ... but it's about the system ....
count me as one of those against granting him deferment ...
The draft is making a comeback, and it has its merits.I support NS, but NS at the expense of national interests and longterm objectives will only defeat the original purpose as a pillar of stability. -
the system is not perfect of course, but where do you draw the line ? ... and how do you define "national interests" and "longterm objectives" ? ... some gifted mathematician or musician ? ... talented football players ? ... online gamers ? ... artists ? ... dancers ? ... you know ... I sashayed down catwalks in my teens ... should I perhaps have applied for deferrment to take a shot at the modeling scene of milan or paris ? ....Originally posted by LazerLordz:the system has to change with the times. We would do well to learn from nations with conscription who are under turmoil and war..
The draft is making a comeback, and it has its merits.I support NS, but NS at the expense of national interests and longterm objectives will only defeat the original purpose as a pillar of stability.
.... well, heck .. like I said ... I'm an egalitarian ... and I make no apologies for it ... and I walked the talk and paid my dues ...
let's go back to the basics and think back what National Service is all about eh, the SAF is in the business of War, it's not in the business of promoting the arts or the sciences, nurturing the next noble prize winner or beethoven ...
During turmoil and war, military laws apply ... deserters would be shot, it's a universal law, for any country the world over ... go google about deserters shot by the allies during WWII ... ditto Singapore ... but that's not peace eh ... the only way you can get everyone to make any sacrifice is to make sure that everyone makes that sacrifice ... no exceptions, no ? ...
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well ... to be anal, for SAFOS and PSC scholars and all that, they are not granted deferment but rather disruptions ...Originally posted by LazerLordz:If you think this government is able to identify talents outside of their own little pet biotech projects, you are seriously wanked up there.
Deferment is reserved for SAFOS and PSC, and for what reason should it not be granted to individuals?National Security? Puh-lese
It's about centering their interests, not necessarily the interests of everyone. We;ve got a long way to go, and though I agree with OM that lengthening the enlistment timeframe is good, we cannot hold back and suddenly move away.
All we are saying is that, let the man do his part for Singapore in his field, and he will be more able to live in a narrative which is not broken in representation, so that he is more likely to stay a citizen.
And I thought they were so good at playing to the emotions...
(Note: It's not only about talents, we have to allow flexible enlistments for people who have a dire need in any other aspects, be it financial or health.You want to make the best of your people, you think ahead and out of the box.Don't give the excuse of planning difficulties as a one-size fits all reason...) -
It seems you do not understand the meaning of case by case basis, along with your laundry list of predictable examples.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Unfortunately there are people here who do not see far enough.
If you allow someone to defer for music lessons, you must allow others to defer for cooking courses, law courses, gardening courses...the list goes on. How do you decide who is gifted enough and who is not? The one who gets accepted in Oxbridge or Ivy league collages should be given deferment over those with places in NUS/NTU or the polytechnics?
The nation is making biotech the 4th pillar of our economy. Arguably that is more vital to Singapore than some pianist or violinist...so we should defer those who take biotech courses?
What about the sob sob stories of those who need to earn a decent income to support their families with elderly parents and young children? Sorry, but they are not gifted enough??
Since you continue to preach rigidity of a the law and narrowly prefer to enforce a blanket ban on deferment, nothing i say will make a difference.
In your mind, i suppose any OTHER industry (cooking? Gardening?
) is BETTER than MUSIC. It's too bad you form such a cheap opinion of so wonderous a talent.
If you were to trade places with Ike, i wonder whether your position would be as noble as they are now.
Perhaps your view of this might change if you'step to the edge of the looking glass', and see a different perspective. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Please send ur feedback to Mindef for proposal n future generation of people seeking deferment should be happy.
I agree..
I prefer a system allowing everyone to serve anytime between 18 and 30 but until the system is changed, it must be applied [b]equally to all.[/b] -
Okay, let it be that way.Deferment and disruptions, eventually they still have to serve.Unless the monetary rewards from coming back to serve as a SAFOS scholar is more attractive than running away as a individual student that is not on scholarship..Originally posted by Fatum:well ... to be anal, for SAFOS and PSC scholars and all that, they are not granted deferment but rather disruptions ... -
He jolly well might not be coming back? Are you so quick to brand him a defaulter already? For all you know he might jolly well come back to serve too. Have you considered that as well?Originally posted by mfscrewu:When I put on my uniform, I defend what is dear to me, that is my family and friends. Most of us served our time, expecting the next generation to follow in our footstep to defend this land. I do not possess such a noble thought of protecting someone's family while he plucked his violin strings elsewhere.
All we are asking for is fairness. If the law is there to serve the purpose, why should somebody be allowed to bend it so that it can help nuture this 'talent'? What about people who due to family problems need to ask for deferment and not allowed? Is it fair to this group of people? Does it mean the daily lives of this group of people is less important than violin boy's music studies?
With music qualifications, do you doubt that he cannot find a niche market in Singapore to promote music and the arts? Are you comparing the relatively PALTRY PAY of musicians against the MONEYBAGS of investment bankers, litigation lawyers, CEOs of MNCs etc? How narrow-minded is that? There is more to just earning big bucks. and there are certainly more opportunities in the west, where music is well-established. But shouldn't we start somewhere? How else should we progress?
Your single comment of 'while he is plucking his violin strings' displays abject contempt for a fellow Singaporean. In times of war, will you be one of those who selectively chooses WHO TO AID IN BATTLE even if we all wear the same uniform? What a pity then that in such times, instead of being selfless, you choose to remain selfish.
You already mentioned that no one will lose sleep if Ike serves at a later date, so why express your insistence that he must serve NS FIRST? Will the Curtis Institute reserve his place for 2 years? Do you think every tertiary institution in the world is run in the same manner as our local Universities?
You should tone down your judgemental comments and instead reflect on the possible opportunities of how best a balanced decision can be made. Imagine Curtis Institue getting a "sorry, NS first" response to their invitation.
What an affront. -
Call it what you like, but the dudes still get their 'time out'.Originally posted by Fatum:well ... to be anal, for SAFOS and PSC scholars and all that, they are not granted deferment but rather disruptions ...
You guys wanna preach letter of the law, then insist that scholars serve NS first too. Why should a scholarship be a passport to 'disruption' ?
So long as scholars and medical students get their deferment, the debate will always rage on. -
I will do so...but to prevent abuse there must be a disincentive.Originally posted by will4:Please send ur feedback to Mindef for proposal n future generation of people seeking deferment should be happy.
I propose that those who defer NS to a later date be required to serve a longer period. After all, someone coming in at 28 is unlikely to be as physically fit as someone at 18. If we allow people to defer NS to a later date, the longer they defer, the longer also must be the period of service. -
What if pianist applies to be excused from chin ups and push-ups because his fingers are far too precious for his livelihood?
For example a Neuro Surgeon who relys on his stable hands to perform surgery is exempted from arms and field activities ! Even BMT ?
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Just so that you know what you are talking about, here is a link to the Minister's speech.Originally posted by BillyBong:Call it what you like, but the dudes still get their 'time out'.
You guys wanna preach letter of the law, then insist that scholars serve NS first too. Why should a scholarship be a passport to 'disruption' ?
So long as scholars and medical students get their deferment, the debate will always rage on.
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/resources/speeches/2006/06mar06_speech2.html
I don't agree that we should allow any disruption to anyone just because of tertiary studies, because the system must be fair to all. In this regard, I do not agree that PSC scholars should enjoy disruption unless there is an operational need for the SAF to do so.
As for medical students, there is such an operational need. Let's go back 20 years. When I enlisted, both medical and dental students were allowed disruption because we needed medical and dental officers in the army. This special treatment granted to these two groups has always been a source of grief and about 10 years ago, the policy was revised.
Dental services are outsourced to private dentists, supplemented by a small number of regular dental officers. Obviously we don't have enough DOs but we decided we do not need so many dentists anyway and so dental students were no longer allowed to disrupt.
What about medical students? A proportion of medical students who perform well enough during BMT to make it to OCS are allowed to disrupt and finish medical school, so that when they return they can be trained as medical officers. The rest were not allowed to disrupt and complete their NS as rifleman, signaller etc.
As a result, we have a rather morbid situation where there are doctors who are consultants in the hospital but do their ICT as riflemen. In view of the dire shortage of medical officers (there is a gradual attrition over the years due to downgrading, emigration etc), there have been recent attempts to make these rifleman doctors medical officers. But by then they are reservists and you cannot call them back for more than 40 days a year. The hospitals are also unable to let so many of these doctors go at the same time for MOCC. And how do you reduce the 9-month OCS course to 40 days? They have tried to do that, but from what I hear the results are far from satisfying and of course, they only solve the reservist MO shortage.
Therein lies the problem. For operational reasons, we need medical officers both in active and reservist service. You can train someone to be a driver during his 2 years of NS but you cannot do that (nor can the SAF afford to) train doctors during that period of time. The only solution is to allow some of them to disrupt for medical school so that the SAF can properly operate.
If you have a solution that does not involve disruption and yet provide the SAF with its medical officers, I am sure MINDEF will be happy to hear it. -
pull ups train arm and finger strength so the bastard can play better pianoOriginally posted by OH-FF:What if pianist applies to be excused from chin ups and push-ups because his fingers are far too precious for his livelihood?
For example a Neuro Surgeon who relys on his stable hands to perform surgery is exempted from arms and field activities ! Even BMT ? -
if citizens love their nation they will take up arms automatically and enthusiastically without the government having to force them, but if citizens feel no connection or bond with the nation we end up with a singapore-ns scenario where so many people from pre-enlistees to ex-reservists all grumbling and moaning about how lousy the country is. in this case, ns is not at fault, it is the country's leaders who have failed to win the hearts and minds of a people they so readily exploit
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The arguments for and against are pretty even.
Let's have a poll.
I say defer.
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This is one of the elements of truth that certain segments fear to approach.Originally posted by vito_corleone:if citizens love their nation they will take up arms automatically and enthusiastically without the government having to force them, but if citizens feel no connection or bond with the nation we end up with a singapore-ns scenario where so many people from pre-enlistees to ex-reservists all grumbling and moaning about how lousy the country is. in this case, ns is not at fault, it is the country's leaders who have failed to win the hearts and minds of a people they so readily exploit