Singapore Police, and on Prank and Crime
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ill re-enforce was u're talking about with a real case.Originally posted by zanza:... okay , i shall explain further to the treadstarters question.
In the above situation, there is no crime, only a possible breach of contract.
There is no crime present in the above situation unless the person misrepresents the item he is selling or his identity, then there is fraud present.
Adding on, about the case of the police officer saying that he does not provide such services.
In effect ,by your request , you are asking the police officer to "warn" ,in otherwords threaten the seller for you, the police officer was being civil when he told you that they do not provide this type of services,
last year my friends and i decided to get several sets of 6600 from a person, whom bail out on us after receiving cash. we made a police report, the uniformed personnels made many personal comments, etc etc. same thing. there was a real loss of like 900 bucks altogether.
when we met the investigating officer, he called up the seller and had a chit-chat with him. after finding more, and several days later, he acted as the negotiator, and explained to us (i forgot much of the details) that it does not result in a fraud, but a civil suit of that breach of agreement. and the seller in question promised to pay back the money in installment, which he never did, either that or my friend whom acted as a proxy intentionally took it and hoped we do not ask. (which reminds me to ask him again, once and for all.)
right now, it doesn't qualify for me to bring the case up again, but it doesn't please me that he got away scot free juz becuz it doesn't result in a criminal case.
but what i think is that the officer should take in more initiative to call up the seller and ask him what is going on before assuming anything at all. like the io above did.
and i also notice those people sitting there seems very hard to show off their knowledge in understanding of the case.. even if it means they are assuming 90% of what happened. buey tahan them.
one more example.. some people like to abuse or threaten with police. i think maybe they are dulan with such people.. but the unprofessionalism stands.
best is speak with an IO and describe everything to him/her imo.
this time im on the other end.
i was selling my laptop to this middle aged uncle. somehow he spoilt the thing and decide that i should claim responsibility for his mishandling of equipment. there were arguments over the phone, i tried my best to help him out, and he took it upon his own pleasure to hurl insults and vulagrs over the phone, threatening to bring his friends to find me. i told him off that would be taken as a threat. he backed off. finally, he threatened me that he would call the police and called my house and told my worried mom that i cheated him and he had called the police, which i dissmissed it off as blanks because if he had called, than it wouldn't be him but a police that would called me.
there are people who think the police can solve anything. both sides of the coin you know..
anyone can tell how many criminal offences he already commited?
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seriously i agree with the example the PO gave , if say your friend wanted to treat you to dinner , but ended up not coming , what can you do ???
EVEN if you go to de chief of police , and tell him that my friend promise me to treat me to dinner tonite , but ended up not coming at all (put aeroplane) , and den show him a sms , indicating that your friend really promise you that he will treat you to dinner ... i think he will advice you that its part and parcel of life ....
the only thing FOR ME I CAN ADVICE YOU IS ! ALWAYS HAVE BLACK AND WHITE , and stop going to the police station and wasting ppl time .....
i not saying that you can only go to the police station to only report crimes , but u can also go there to ask for advice on certain matters , But you are asking stupid questions that you know , that noting can be done ... -
was there a black and white ? your case is strong cos money has already change hands .... is something like con.ing caseOriginally posted by Ito_^:ill re-enforce was u're talking about with a real case.
last year my friends and i decided to get several sets of 6600 from a person, whom bail out on us after receiving cash. we made a police report, the uniformed personnels made many personal comments, etc etc. same thing. there was a real loss of like 900 bucks altogether.
when we met the investigating officer, he called up the seller and had a chit-chat with him. after finding more, and several days later, he acted as the negotiator, and explained to us (i forgot much of the details) that it does not result in a fraud, but a civil suit of that breach of agreement. and the seller in question promised to pay back the money in installment, which he never did, either that or my friend whom acted as a proxy intentionally took it and hoped we do not ask. (which reminds me to ask him again, once and for all.)
right now, it doesn't qualify for me to bring the case up again, but it doesn't please me that he got away scot free juz becuz it doesn't result in a criminal case.
but what i think is that the officer should take in more initiative to call up the seller and ask him what is going on before assuming anything at all. like the io above did.
and i also notice those people sitting there seems very hard to show off their knowledge in understanding of the case.. even if it means they are assuming 90% of what happened. buey tahan them. -
ya.. that is the point, the threadtstarter im not very sure if that has taken place.. but if the police has taken the initiative, call the person up to ask what is going on and offer his advice to both of them, it might avoid some needless trouble.Originally posted by gUms:was there a black and white ? your case is strong cos money has already change hands .... is something like con.ing case
ok he didn't, i re-read the whole post. but i still feel the police should call up the person, but not a requirement to do so. online auction isn't a deal between friends, its a "business" transaction between two strangers.. i suppose alot of people couldn't care to take it seriously. -
eXample ar .... you go buy car but b4 you buy de car the sales man told you , my shop gives 3 month warranty , any problems b4 3 months we will fix for you , but with-in 3 months your car got lots of problems , but when u send back the car , de shop doesnt wan to do anything for you , and shoo you away ..
even the police cant do anything ... the only way is you hire a lawyer , and bring them to court , and let de judge decide. -
since there is black and white , why didnt you hire a lawyer and bring de matter up to court ?
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wad questions are considered stupid?Originally posted by gUms:i not saying that you can only go to the police station to only report crimes , but u can also go there to ask for advice on certain matters , But you are asking stupid questions that you know , that noting can be done ...
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obviously i cant list out all de stupid question , but u ought to use common sense to know wat is stupid and wats not ...
chEeRs -
I would advise you all to stop abusing our law enforcers.. I had worked with many IO, SIO and still got contact with many of them. None of them sounded like the way you written. You can let me have your real name and IC. I am sure the officers in charge will make sure those juniors officer are dealed if they are wrong. However, make sure you stand firm..and don't bend. Cause I will be embarrassed. -
About requesting the officer to call up the seller is something the officer absolutely cannot do. Neutrality is important in this case.
Anyway the case doesn't seems to constitute any criminal offence, thus the police cannot do anything. However, if you insist on making a police report, it is your right to do so. However, the result of such a report will be the same. The IO in charge of the case will probably interview you and then tell you that no offence has been commited. If you want the police to take any further action, you must obtain a magistrate's complaint from the court. Otherwise, it ends here.
I think what angered you is the way the counter officer attended to you. He could have done better to explain to you the police's stand and procedures on matters like these in a professional manner. However, the advices and anology he gave is accurate, so live and let live lar. Just focus on the matter itself. After all, we are all human, prone to all kind of weaknesses like stress, fatigue etc. -
Originally posted by Xyse:
I can't read through - it is too confusing
Today was my first time being a victim of online auction prank. Aka, decided on meet deal and meet up location and last min, the seller went missing.
Being annoyed, and amused at the same time. I decided to walk to the nearest neighbourhood police centre to seek some advice and maybe named a crime to such act. Crime is a bad choice of word, I will talk more about it later to tell you why.
It was nearing 10pm, thus the centre was pretty quite. At the gate, I was greeted by what? No security guards? So I went closer and found out that two police officer was looking at a LCD screen. A small peep at the screen, I am roughly able to make out something of a web forum or sort.
A "execuse me" made me two enermy as one of the grumpy guards come to me and ask me "what i want". I told him I come for some advise and consultant, his expression was like looking at a mad man or he clearly cant hear what I was saying and just let me exchange my pass and make my way to the lobby.
Lobby. not much people left, prolly 1-2 police man and another one sitting at the information counter fumbling some stuff on the desk, obviously bored.
So I told him that I would like to have someone to speak to regarding a recent event and probably put a name on the crime. YES! CRIME! WRONG WORD.
He suddenly look amused and probably fix this in his mind. "this young man got pranked and cant get his first edition psp and thus come here and think he could write a police report roflmao"(ok, i made that up, but it would be closed, I can swear to it).
Well, he maintain the amused expression throughout the encounter. I ask him if playing such auction prank was a crime, he say "no". I ask him if he is ethical, morally right and normal, he say "nope".
Fine.
He then give me one of the worst analogy I have yet to heard.
"if your friend promise to treat you a dinner, but he did not turn up and refused your call, what can you do? make a case?"
Make a case if obviously what the police meant by making a police report. You can probably conclude with this statement that he took me for being childish with his last pun(aka "make a case?").
If my friend do something like that, I would probably visit him personally at his home and give me a piece of my mind. But the problem is as a active online trader, we have come to learn to trust each other to honor deals(apart from items condition where sometimes people just banter lies and dog poo). Breaking this trust is just unhealthy for the community if left unattended. It is also a form of harussment as it is a real irritation.
He continues with his annoying hints of trying to make me understand that this is a small matter and get over it kind of stuff and body stretches. I decided to pay them no mind as my main objective is to get information.
When I started to knock some sense into him that I am indeed serious in wanting to seek information instead of making a report. He started to talk alittle sense until we talk about proof. Ha, I got sms and the prankster phone number, so being naive I wanted to let him take alook. But he just ignore them and say that sms is not enough.
Eletronic proof isnt proof? We gotta try emailing middlemen companies to prepare stock for large orders and then laugh at them later when we say we got no monies!
He then say that the person replying the sms might not be him and thus it isnt valid. WOW GOOD POINT! IMPERSONATING, OR MAYBE PHONE THIEF IS NOT A CRIME! or maybe one that the police think it's amusing.
So I got the only trace(phone number) of this impersonating phone thief trying to sell me psp! how horrible! and yet the officer only nods to himself as if his alternate personality is agreeing with his other half steadfast mind. Did he even request a look at the sms and numbers when i was readying to provide?
Nope.
Then he go about something of level such as big crime small crime. Threatening to kill is big crime and threatening other stuff is smaller crime.
Yeah right. I will pick a random stranger who threatens to kill me over a random stranger who waste my time and travel expenses anyday in Singapore. No guns = sharp weapon or raw might. If you see the person who threaten to kill you with a sharp weapon or tensing his muscle towards you, you either run or shut ur door in his face. As compared someone play a prank at you, you sit like a idiot wasting an hour or so smsing or trying to call through worrying about the welfare of a stranger feeling helpless. The former seems better since you are in control.
Finally feeling a little disappointed, I ask if the police could maybe call and warn him not to play such prank again for health of the online community(and maybe a little chat with the impersonating phone thief psp seller, lol, I wished I have said this just now). He said.
"We do not provide such [b]service."
Maintaining is a responsibility, NOT A SERVICE. Say, washing my cloths and tying my shoe laces is a service. As the recipient would have recieve a direct gain or advantage. Calling the asshole not to do it again is of a much wider scope since it is for the good of the community(this dude has done it more than just once to base some digging in yahoo auctions). And what the hell? He did not even care to look at the number to check if the owner of the HP had really lost his handphone, based on his own suggestions. Or maybe he was already murdered because his friend wanted to keep the psp for himself! roflwtf damn.
And wtf, police went down when kids are playing soccer on grass fields when people complain. Police cant call and warn a online nuisance.
He also told me that I could make a civil suit for such stuff. But also added, "sue him for what? wasting your time?". Then laugh at his own joke as if his alternate personality appeared again. Ass.
Giving up and totally disappointed. I thank him and check out of the building.
I am pretty sure such encounters are national service men. They probably treated their jobs as conscript labour and took no pride or dedication in them. I find them pretty much unfit to be in direct contact with normal civilians. Remember those tv ads about friendly neighbourhood where neighbourhood police ride bicycle waving at kids? No shit, thats in tv.
One last thing for those who do auctions online. As a buyer, insist on paying the seller first through bank transfer etc, thus it will count(to singapore police) as a cheat if he fails to turn up. Then again, the seller could sue you for slander if he wants to. And also your sms might not be the best evidence to use. These are based on what I have gathered from that officer at the station, but my guess is that they are far from the real laws since there are countless loopholes in them.
So where is the red line between prank and crime to local police?
And are all police encounters fellow members here had have as bad?
My first post btw, I have wrote a much more formal version of this post but was lost during submittion. Hope this isnt too bad.[/b]
First off - did you pay? If you made a payment , it is a crime that he did not turn up with the goods
Second - if you did not, it is a contractual breach if you bidded on the item - civil matter . You can opt to complain to the online auction site because ebay and the reputable ones will chase up on cases like that. -
if i recieved lowly police pay i wouldnt be bothered about such trivial matters too. you have yourself to blame for being so careless with your money.
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About contractual breach. Online auction sites like ebay and yahoo are not considered 'traditional auctioneer' by the law. Thus, these sites functions like an auction, but are not bounded by the laws regarding traditional auctions where the drop of the hammer will bound a contract. Thus, as long as no money has changed hand, no one is bounded by any contract or sort to buy or sell any items, even if someone 'bidded' successfully.Originally posted by fymk:I can't read through - it is too confusing
First off - did you pay? If you made a payment , it is a crime that he did not turn up with the goods
Second - if you did not, it is a contractual breach if you bidded on the item - civil matter . You can opt to complain to the online auction site because ebay and the reputable ones will chase up on cases like that. -
Technically, the police are not wrong in explaining to you that no crime was committed.Originally posted by Xyse:Today was my first time being a victim of online auction prank. Aka, decided on meet deal and meet up location and last min, the seller went missing......
......One last thing for those who do auctions online. As a buyer, insist on paying the seller first through bank transfer etc, thus it will count(to singapore police) as a cheat if he fails to turn up. Then again, the seller could sue you for slander if he wants to. And also your sms might not be the best evidence to use. These are based on what I have gathered from that officer at the station, but my guess is that they are far from the real laws since there are countless loopholes in them.
So where is the red line between prank and crime to local police?
And are all police encounters fellow members here had have as bad?
My first post btw, I have wrote a much more formal version of this post but was lost during submittion. Hope this isnt too bad.
Since the seller stood you up, he basically did a 'no-show' and perhaps decided not to sell the product or found someone willing to offer a higher price. There is no illegal action by performing this U-turn as the two of you did not sign a contract. Hence, there is nothing legal binding to link you and the seller.
Perhaps the police were a bit flippant in their response. They probably had the impression that your keen 'interest' in pursuing the matter was one born out of naviety. If there's one thing you should not expect from our boys in blue, it's diplomacy when addressing people.
Like any govt body, they will conform to the same bureaucratic rules and inflexibility of an inefficient machine. They do not know how to perform their duties beyond the scope of their boundary, nor will they have the urge to do so.
At the same time, the police force are ringing the changes to outsource their responsibility. Traffic accidents without injury or death are considered 'civil cases' and the police will not get involved. Unfortunately, this directly transfers such responsibilities to insurance companies and their lawyers, who may not be entirely impartial in the interest of money. I find this a step back rather than a beneficial move to disgruntled motorists, especially when it involves unreasonable road bullies who insist on 'no wrong' even if the facts are plainly against them.
For the TP, they have chosen to reduce their responsibility even though they are the best neutral body to access the situation and assign damages to each party.
But i'm digressing from the topic at hand.