IT TOOKS THE LEES AND PAP 30YEARS TO DESTORY J B JEYARETNAM
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It would be indeed interesting if someone were to bring this up in parliament and watch the reaction from a 'sleepy' MM Lee, citing our current domestic affairs concerning so-called freedom of speech and the sorry state of our 'democratic' media.Originally posted by Atobe:Persecutor :
Lee Kuan Yew Speaks
Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew, once one of the world’s most articulate voices of freedom, had this to say in 1956 as an opposition member of Parliament: “But either we believe in democracy or we do not. If we do, then we must say categorically, without qualification, that no restraint from any democratic process, other than by ordinary law of the land, should be allowed. If you believe in democracy, you must believe in it unconditionally. If you believe that men should be free, then they should have the right of free association, of free speech, of free publication. Then no law should permit those democratic processes to be set at naught. . .”
In a subsequent speech made when Singapore was part of the Malaysian federation, Lee articulated his feelings about freedom of the press and media. ”Let us get down to fundamentals. Is this an open or a closed society? Is it a society where men can preach ideas—the novel, unorthodox, heresies. . . where there is a constant contest for men’s heats and minds on the basis of what is right, of what I just, or what is in the national interest? Or is it a closed society where the mass media—the newspapers, journals, publications, TV, radio. . . feed men’s minds with a constant drone of sycophantic support for a particular orthodox philosophy?”
I wonder whether it would be a robust response or a complete denial.
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He did not commit anything why detain under ISAOriginally posted by Icemoon:I have a question.
Why wasn't Jeya detained by the ISD?
After all, they did detain some people from the WP during his time. -
really pity him. I bought his book in 2001 at Jurong. If Goverment want to catch u, they will find fault no matter how, they will check ur income tax, ur party account, everything they can spy on u, and if u do something wrong then they provide evidence, they use tax payers money to spy on Francis Seow in USA, which is unethical, they will charge CSJ for claiming $12 extra taxi fare etc..... so it all goes on and on if u r a threat to PAP u better becareful, if u r a ikan bilis, then no problem, incometax pay less they dont care alsoOriginally posted by TehJarVu:i saw him at city hall mrt entrance selling his books... still passionate in what he believes in....... -
Francis Seow seemed to be a Fellow at Hearveard University.Originally posted by t_a_s:really pity him. I bought his book in 2001 at Jurong. If Goverment want to catch u, they will find fault no matter how, they will check ur income tax, ur party account, everything they can spy on u, and if u do something wrong then they provide evidence, they use tax payers money to spy on Francis Seow in USA, which is unethical, they will charge CSJ for claiming $12 extra taxi fare etc..... so it all goes on and on if u r a threat to PAP u better becareful, if u r a ikan bilis, then no problem, incometax pay less they dont care also -
Those from the Workers' Party - who were detained by the ISD - were the worker-ants working in the background in the Workers' Party, providing the research brains and menial efforts to get things working in support of the seemingly single effort of JBJ.
Unfortunately, these 'behind-the-scene' WP workers were also social activists in their church, and believing in practising their faith to the fullest they also participated in the social welfare of foreign industrial workers in Singapore abandoned or abused by their Singaporean Employers.
This touched a raw nerve as it exposed the inability of the NTUC (under the control of the POWER OF ONE) in dealing with labor issues.
This situation provided the POWER OF ONE with the excuse that these Catholic social workers were an underground communist cell - similar to the Catholic Social Activist Groups practising the 'Liberation Theology' in the Philippines that undermined the Marcos Regime; as well as the dictatorial governments of Latin America.
This 'Liberation Theology' was -
"An activist movement led by Roman Catholic clergy who trace their inspiration to Vatican Council II (1963-65), where some church views were liberalized, and the Second Latin American Bishops' Conference in MedellÃn, Colombia (1968 ), which endorsed greater direct efforts to improve the lot of the poor.
Advocates of liberation theology have introduced a radical interpretation of the Bible, one that employs Marxist terminology to analyze and condemn the wide disparities between the wealthy elite and the impoverished masses in most underdeveloped countries.
This reflection often leads advocates to organize to improve living standards through cooperatives and civic improvement projects"
In one swoop - Operation Spectrum, it allowed the POWER OF ONE to remove the underfoot support to JBJ, as well as the embarrassing pin-pricks to the NTUC and its Secretary-General (who is a Minister without Portfolio in the PM's Office).
For the record, no evidence were produced by the POWER OF ONE that these group of Catholic Social Workers - who were also Workers' Party 'worker-ants' - can be 'sleeper cell' Communist Operators burrowing to take over the Workers' Party.
Read the Marxist Conspiracy and the Catholic Church. -
you mean the rest did commit something?Originally posted by t_a_s:He did not commit anything why detain under ISA
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I am fine with whoever be the leader. PAP, WP, SDA or SDP. As long as they keep singapore safe. Just look at brazil now, gangs fighting polices, damn dangerous...
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I always find it amusing when MM Lee travels oveseas and the press reports on it. All I see is old man Lee and Mrs riding camels and choo choo trains around tourist attractions on their formal visits. Not a bad deal for a guy who gets to travel on taxpayers money and and have a good time travelling in comfort and sightseeing in his golden years all on the pretext of work related trips. As for the press, its a riff raff press! All they do is make money out of ads and followed by brainwashing the masses with their 1 sided riff raff articles.
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What have you done for Singapore? What has J done for Singapore? What has MM Lee done for Singapore?
Ponder, think, then open your mouth.
As far as I know, other than his insistence on a strong central government (which pretty much has done right by us), he hasn't stumbled much yet. Point to the bad economic condition and look at the economies of Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and China. Still think he did such a bad job?
I find that too many singaporeans want change in government just for the sake of change, without thinking what this would bring. You speak about having more say in government policies. I would rather have elite intelligent representatives deciding public policy rather than a system which caters to every idiot with an opinion like the US. A government that can enact policy with speed and efficiency, instead of being locked in endless argument or nitpicking.
The mob is always dumber than a intelligent ogliarchy (just look at some of the ridiculous statements that have garnered a strong backing simply because they appeal to our bottomline without giving consideration to simple economic or political realities). Especially if there are strict rules on the ogliarchy to control corruption curb personal over public interest. -
Our time will come, when Singaporeans are allowed a chance to contribute - but can we ?Originally posted by kivichio:What have you done for Singapore? What has J done for Singapore? What has MM Lee done for Singapore?
Ponder, think, then open your mouth.
Judging by what MM LKY had said in an extensive interview with TimeAsia Magazine, can we seriously believe a person who believe in himself so seriously as being the cleverest and shrewdest person in the First World.An Extract from TimeAsia Magazine:
Was the creative political viciousness displayed by the Alternative Parties in the recent Singapore Election 2006, or was it a star display of the vicious trait that is characteristic of MM LKY himself ?
TIME: But the U.S. is a very non-Singaporean society. It's messy and noisy, and it has turmoil.
LEE: You must have contention, a clash of ideas. If Galileo had not challenged the Pope, we would still believe the world is flat, right? And Christopher Columbus might never have discovered America.
TIME: You don't allow much contention in Singapore.
LEE: [The lack of contention] here could be a problem. But I do not believe you must have that degree of contention and political viciousness to be creative ... The exaggerated exploitation of political positions, just to do the other side in, it's so counterproductive, unnecessary. Take Hurricane Katrina. The politicking was incredible. So George W. Bush was not quick off the mark when Katrina struck. But I don't think his adversaries were simply that worried about New Orleans; they just wanted to put Bush down.
TIME: But you would concede that Singapore now needs more contention and turmoil?
LEE: Surely, surely. Ideally we should have Team A, Team B, equally balanced, so that we can have a swap and the system will run. We have not been able to do this in Singapore because our population is only 4 million, and the people at the top, with proven track records—not just in ability, but in character, determination, commitment—will not be more than 2,000. You can put their biodata in a thumbdrive.
We also have a different culture, a different way of doing things. The individual is not the building block. It's the family, the extended family, the clan and the state. The five crucial relationships are: you and the prince or the ruler, you and your wife, you and your children, you and your parents, you and your friends. If those relationships are right, everything will work out well in society.
Is it not typical MM LKY brilliance in weaving a tall tale to an external audience - that knows nothing in depth of Singapore and Singaporeans - and attempt to convince the world at large about the supposed paucity of Singaporean Talents and Righteous Characters ?
Surely, again, in the recent Singapore Election 2006, the Alternative Political Parties have proven his views wrong again ?
His vanity and insecurity is displayed in his attitude of insisting in the exclusive capabilities being only in the Ruling Party, and politicising every public institution in Singapore.
As far as I know, other than his insistence on a strong central government (which pretty much has done right by us), he hasn't stumbled much yet. Point to the bad economic condition and look at the economies of Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and China. Still think he did such a bad job?
This can only result in a shrivelling of Singapore similar to the Communist Countries ruled by the Supermacy of the POWER OF ONE.
For your information, the Singapore economy is still relatively shaky, and an unemployment situation still worsening with continued quiet retrenchments.
Where did you get your information from concerning the deteriorating economies of our neighbors ?
Did you not read of the optimistic outlook in the economies of Japan; Thailand; Malaysia; Indonesia; and least of all Peoples' Republic of China.
Unfortunately, when the elite begin to believe too much in their own infallibility, and believe that everyone else is an idiot - except themselves, that is the beginning to the end.
I find that too many singaporeans want change in government just for the sake of change, without thinking what this would bring. You speak about having more say in government policies. I would rather have elite intelligent representatives deciding public policy rather than a system which caters to every idiot with an opinion like the US. A government that can enact policy with speed and efficiency, instead of being locked in endless argument or nitpicking.
MM LKY had enacted policies with speed and efficiency, and bull-dozed aside all opposing views, only to admit forty years late that perhaps he should have listened to those voices.
Two lasting ruinous policy caused by LKY's willful and dogmatic rule have left us with a declining population caused by the 2-Child Family Planning Policy of the 1960s; and an employment situation that is constantly dependant on multi-national corporations as Singapore's own small and medium enterprises were wiped out by Government Owned Companies that were established to provide lucrative support services to the MNCs. -
continuation:
Even if the Elite believe that the mob is always dumber that an intelligent oligarchy, how long can the intelligent oligarchy continue to hide the truth from a mob that is becoming better educated, better informed, and becoming wiser to the efforts of 'filling the stomach, to dull the minds' ?
The mob is always dumber than a intelligent ogliarchy (just look at some of the ridiculous statements that have garnered a strong backing simply because they appeal to our bottomline without giving consideration to simple economic or political realities). Especially if there are strict rules on the ogliarchy to control corruption curb personal over public interest.[/b]
Even with the 'strict rules on the oligarchy to control corruption to curb personal over public interest' - are these in anyway effective, or have they been circumvented by other legislations ?
In the 21 May 2006, Sunday edition of the Sunday Times, Page 21, the article on 'Ex-Korean leader's last diary entry: Meeting with MM' had included a brief quote on MM LKY's lecture during the Citibank Legacies of Leadership Lecture held at Seoul on last Thursday night.
If the last statement is not a 'world class understatement' to an audience that do not have first hand information on the extensive hold that the First Family has on Singapore Incorporated.
MM LKY said that leadership is not an abstraction. What leadership means is that the people must identify themselves with the leader.
They must see the leader as one of them and the leader must instill confidence in the people that he will do them no harm, will do good and will not rule to benefit himself and his family.
Everyone knows that national corruption is the enrichment of the leadership by illegal means, through embezzlement, raiding of the national treasures.
What if the leaders get rich through unopposed passing of legislations - when they are in total control of the Legislature - and can pass all legislations at their own will ?
Was the astronomical increase to the Ministerial salaries put through a referendum, or at least with the Party Whip lifted to allow every Member of Parliament to vote according to their personal conscience and conviction ?
What if the Elite Oligarchy was able to circumvent all checks and balances that were supposedly put in place - as in the Elected President with limited powers that are later removed when those limited powers are deemed to be nuisance ?
Politics is the art of preventing people from taking part in affairs which properly concern them.
Paul Valery (1871 - 1945), Tel Quel 2 (1943)
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
Ronald Reagan (1911 - 2004) -
1. How much of those in the Government are really elites? Have anyone ponder and asked the Government?Originally posted by kivichio:What have you done for Singapore? What has J done for Singapore? What has MM Lee done for Singapore?
Ponder, think, then open your mouth.
As far as I know, other than his insistence on a strong central government (which pretty much has done right by us), he hasn't stumbled much yet. Point to the bad economic condition and look at the economies of Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and China. Still think he did such a bad job?
I find that too many singaporeans want change in government just for the sake of change, without thinking what this would bring. You speak about having more say in government policies. I would rather have elite intelligent representatives deciding public policy rather than a system which caters to every idiot with an opinion like the US. A government that can enact policy with speed and efficiency, instead of being locked in endless argument or nitpicking.
The mob is always dumber than a intelligent ogliarchy (just look at some of the ridiculous statements that have garnered a strong backing simply because they appeal to our bottomline without giving consideration to simple economic or political realities). Especially if there are strict rules on the ogliarchy to control corruption curb personal over public interest.
2. How much of these are really building Singapore?
3. Are you sure they are doing good for Singapore? -
I wonder why many have wanted a new ruling party to rule Singapore?
Have you think of the consequence of a leadership, which is untested and unrecognized globally?
Having saying that, think about at the moment now, most of us are still currently working and have a family to support, do you wish to jeopardize all "entitlements"? Imagines a day where investors pulling out of Singapore, What will we left with?
Nothing? All we have is human resources and nothing natural we can produce, unlike other countries like Malaysia are still able to survive with oil and plantations.
What's wrong a total government? So we have a good and natural leader, who we think they give a job at least to most of us, food to feed our family, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Think of consequence, where 2 major parties are challenging each other internal, without the consideration with the major threat from the outside global economy.
Yes, maybe we need a strong opposition party as a guidance, a pusher to the government to strive better and greater achievements, but not to the extend of opposition toppling the government, in my view; I see this as a disaster.
As I have been observing the forums and I have see many sarcastic critiques on our leaders and government? I guess we should be grateful and thanks-giving for what we have now as compared to what Singapore is 30 years old.
Without a strong leadership, can we achieve what we own today? Do we still a steadfast economy as compare with the Asean countries, given that we are the only country among many that lack of natural resources.
Yes, our standard living has increased incrementally, but that's unpreventable to what I see, as there are so much uncertainty in today's global changes. Inflation is seemed likely in many countries today.
Again, when the opposition parties said they will want to lower cost of standard living, de-privatize our public transport company, I see that as a fallacy. Where to get the resources to reduce the living standard, from the taxpayer's money? De-privatize mean earning no profits, and will our transport company improve and seek better services as today we are considered as a world class transport in the world.
What we need is a government that can provide us with necessities and a shelter we can sleep peacefully every night. -
Atobe, if I could summarize your main points for brevity, I believe the following are your concerns:
1) Singapore Economy is still shaky as there are quiet retrenchments
2) MM Lee was particularly vicious in the last round of elections.
3) Singapore faces an aging population problem.
4) You are afraid of corruption.
5) You feel that Singaporeans are disenfranchised regarding politics.
Well, Singapore was able to manuever the worst of the Asian Crisises. We have avoided a stagnated economy like Japan (which has only recently begun to improve), did not need IMF aid like Korea, nor did we our industries suffer near record breaking bankruptcies (true across the board, especially in Korea, Taiwan and Thailand). China's economy is flourishing inspite of rather than because of her political leadership.
Why are there retrenchments? Because we have fallen proverbially into the high wages-export market dilemma that Japan has fallen into and which Korea and Taiwan are now desperately trying to fend off also. Are those retrenched a majority? Do I see unemployment rocketing? No, its an adjustment and Singaporeans have to understand the government is not responsible for giving you a high paying job, a nice condo and a country club. Are the retrenched homeless? No, they live in cheap affordable government housing. Are they hungry? No, food prices have not been artificially inflated with protective tarriff policies and remain cheap for our income level. Do we all need cars? No, Singapore's public transport and relatively light jams are the envy of East Asia. Do we complain endlessly that not all of us have the good life, without endeavoring my own effort to make things better? YES
Perhaps MM Lee gave the opposition short shrift, but is that a surprise? He has always emphasised that a strong central government is what allowed Singapore the flexibility to quickly respond to the global environment. We don't have the natural supremacy or the rich resources of the US to adopt selfish shortsighted public sating policies.
As to the age problem, do you really think the government can be completely held accountable for this? Its reached crisis proportions in Korea and Japan. Most rich, affluent (how did this come around huh?) countries find that as people become more educated and well-off, their tendencies are usually inclined to limiting the brood to one or two for a better quality of living. Singapore has launched campaigns and incentives to encourage family building, but its Singaporeans who have not bitten. You argue for greater personal autonomy, but you want the government to step into the most intimate of our decisions?
Corruption? Surely you jest? I will not deign to reply to this. Our little trite scandals about housing purchases are not in the league of the little fiefdoms that politicians in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, Indonesia, Malaysia and the rest of the world have established.
As to the matter of disenfranchisement, 66.6% voted PAP. That is a fact. Voter turnout is amongst the highest at over 90% due to compulsory voting. People apparently seem to think that the PAP is doing an adequate job, contrary to the whining and complaining. Its simple to take pot shots from the sidelines, but few really appreciate the world class job that a dedicated elite has done for Singapore. -
Some times, human will need a motivation to go on..If JB is no around or retired, the motivation will be gone.
Hence, although JB may be destroyed, but do pray hard that he don't retire in order to have the motivation.
I studied no much..but I know myself without a target..life can be very miserable.
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LKY and the other founding fathers of modern Singapore had ZERO EXPERIENCE when they stepped into the seats of Government; and neither do the thousands of new graduates, who enter the job market annually.Originally posted by babymac13:I wonder why many have wanted a new ruling party to rule Singapore?
Have you think of the consequence of a leadership, which is untested and unrecognized globally?
Having saying that, think about at the moment now, most of us are still currently working and have a family to support, do you wish to jeopardize all "entitlements"? Imagines a day where investors pulling out of Singapore, What will we left with?
Nothing? All we have is human resources and nothing natural we can produce, unlike other countries like Malaysia are still able to survive with oil and plantations.
What's wrong a total government? So we have a good and natural leader, who we think they give a job at least to most of us, food to feed our family, I don't see anything wrong with it.
Think of consequence, where 2 major parties are challenging each other internal, without the consideration with the major threat from the outside global economy.
Yes, maybe we need a strong opposition party as a guidance, a pusher to the government to strive better and greater achievements, but not to the extend of opposition toppling the government, in my view; I see this as a disaster.
As I have been observing the forums and I have see many sarcastic critiques on our leaders and government? I guess we should be grateful and thanks-giving for what we have now as compared to what Singapore is 30 years old.
Without a strong leadership, can we achieve what we own today? Do we still a steadfast economy as compare with the Asean countries, given that we are the only country among many that lack of natural resources.
Yes, our standard living has increased incrementally, but that's unpreventable to what I see, as there are so much uncertainty in today's global changes. Inflation is seemed likely in many countries today.
Again, when the opposition parties said they will want to lower cost of standard living, de-privatize our public transport company, I see that as a fallacy. Where to get the resources to reduce the living standard, from the taxpayer's money? De-privatize mean earning no profits, and will our transport company improve and seek better services as today we are considered as a world class transport in the world.
What we need is a government that can provide us with necessities and a shelter we can sleep peacefully every night.
Yet we all learn on-the-job, or draw on the experience from those around us who are willing to help.
If Singapore cannot survive without the Ruling Political Party, then the present Ruling Party has not done their duty to ensure that Singapore will have a Public Institutional System that function with each change of Political Parties that form the Government.
The Singapore Public Institutions must remain non-political and independent of the influences of Party Politics, so as to be able to serve Singaporeans regardless of whichever Political Party that takes over the seat of Government.
Looking at other First World Countries, PM Tony Blair of UK had ZERO EXPERIENCE when he stepped into No 10 Downing Street, and yet he turned UK around and steered UK for the last two terms of five years each.
If the UK Conservative Party is to win the next UK Elections, its Party Leader - David Cameron will have little political experience in Government too.
This same situation exist in every First World Country, but the Public Institutions have been established to run the country in a structure that allow them to operate independently from the Executive Branch of Government.
Can this be said of Singapore, where the POWER OF ONE has placed their own clones to oversee the operations of each and every Public Institutions ?
At a personal level, if you insist on experience to take on the job, how did you first get your job without any experience - except for a paper graduation certificate ?
If no one believe in you, would you have got your job, with some guidance and direction that allow you to perform and show your true abilities ?
Can Singapore continue into the next phase of development, if we are afraid to move into the unknown with an open and alert mind ?
Governing Singapore can be like a yatch race - similar to the Americas Cup - where the entire crew will work in unison to the Captain's steering of the yatch, with so many unknown challenges facing them.
One has to trim the sail, or let it billow to catch the favorable wind according to the circumstances at hand.
Experience comes with each success or failure, but an alert and diligent mind will push the person - with leadership quality - to rise to the occassion.
The SAF has been built along these lines, and leaders have always been found amongst those who dare to take the lead.
For your information, 'Profits and Privatisation' will always go-hand-in-hand otherwise China will not attempt to unload all the State run companies that have been money losing enterprises and require annual state subsidies.
Privatisation will lead to greater efficiency and higher level of accountability and transparency.
This was seen in the UK during Magaret Thatche's long period of being the Prime Minister of UK, and a prime mover to privatise all major companies. -
Originally posted by kivichio:
These are not merely personal concerns, but stating the facts as printed in my post.
Atobe, if I could summarize your main points for brevity, I believe the following are your concerns:
1) Singapore Economy is still shaky as there are quiet retrenchments
2) MM Lee was particularly vicious in the last round of elections.
3) Singapore faces an aging population problem.
4) You are afraid of corruption.
5) You feel that Singaporeans are disenfranchised regarding politics.
Those were my personal views of LKY - which have been formed by consistently studying him, and found him to be a very insecure person, who require him to flash his tough guy image and the ruthlessly vicious side; but smart enough to prevent such views from gaining any currency amongst the First World, by way of some deft move in a dismissive nonchalance way.
What industries have Singapore has that is comparable to that in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, or even Thailand - let alone comparing with China ?
Well, Singapore was able to manuever the worst of the Asian Crisises. We have avoided a stagnated economy like Japan (which has only recently begun to improve), did not need IMF aid like Korea, nor did we our industries suffer near record breaking bankruptcies (true across the board, especially in Korea, Taiwan and Thailand). China's economy is flourishing inspite of rather than because of her political leadership.
Does Singapore have the level of industry, and the volume of economic and industrial output as these countries, which got these countries to expose themselves to the financial battering that each of these countries were subjected to - (except for China) ?
Your comments are quite amusing in that you claim that the Government is NOT RESPONSIBLE for giving anyone a high paying job, a nice condo, and a country club; when it has been THE SINGAPORE GOVERNMENT dabbling in all these fields to present Singaporeans with high paying jobs, HDB estates that are designed by private architects or with new designs resembling condominiums, and getting NTUC to set up Golf Clubs for the industrial workers.
Why are there retrenchments? Because we have fallen proverbially into the high wages-export market dilemma that Japan has fallen into and which Korea and Taiwan are now desperately trying to fend off also. Are those retrenched a majority? Do I see unemployment rocketing? No, its an adjustment and Singaporeans have to understand the government is not responsible for giving you a high paying job, a nice condo and a country club. Are the retrenched homeless? No, they live in cheap affordable government housing. Are they hungry? No, food prices have not been artificially inflated with protective tarriff policies and remain cheap for our income level. Do we all need cars? No, Singapore's public transport and relatively light jams are the envy of East Asia. Do we complain endlessly that not all of us have the good life, without endeavoring my own effort to make things better? YES
The Singapore Government had willfully forced wages to climb during the 1980s, so as to drive out the industries that require cheap labor; and feverishly pushed Singaporeans to a higher technological level by gearing the education system towards industries that pay higher wages for higher skills.
Do you seriously believe that retrenchments have not led to mortgage defaults - whether Private or HDB homes ?
Across Asia, in all countries affected by the financial crisis, the common characteristic is that a retrenched person will have no means of servicing the home mortgage, which obviously will result in a default situation.
Singapore is no exception, with the 1997 economic downturn hitting home and followed so quickly by another in 2002, do you seriously believe that there is no increase in homeless Singaporeans ?
Unfortunately, that is a clever excuse that is only too conveniently framed to allow the perpetuation of himself and his continued relevance in current politics.
Perhaps MM Lee gave the opposition short shrift, but is that a surprise? He has always emphasised that a strong central government is what allowed Singapore the flexibility to quickly respond to the global environment. We don't have the natural supremacy or the rich resources of the US to adopt selfish shortsighted public sating policies.
The centralising of Power and the unquestionable wilfull exercise of his influence - even when he is supposed to be taking a back seat - throughout the last forty over years, has been the cause of the present day woes (as already described) - which has been so cleverly labelled as being structural.
Who has been the cause of such structural failures in the economy and in the labor force ? -
continuation:
This problem has to do with the Family Planning Policy and the Stop-at-Two Programs of the 1960s that were so wilfully pushed, despite voices that had alerted and advised LKY and his cabinet of the long term pitfalls.
As to the age problem, do you really think the government can be completely held accountable for this? Its reached crisis proportions in Korea and Japan. Most rich, affluent (how did this come around huh?) countries find that as people become more educated and well-off, their tendencies are usually inclined to limiting the brood to one or two for a better quality of living. Singapore has launched campaigns and incentives to encourage family building, but its Singaporeans who have not bitten. You argue for greater personal autonomy, but you want the government to step into the most intimate of our decisions?
Unfortunately, the 'I-Know-Better' attitude over-ride every other voices of that period, and which LKY admitted forty years later that he wished he had listened to those voices.
I am amaze that your final statement here could have been caused by what I have written. How could my last post resulted in such a conclusion ?
How about considering the following statements made by some prominent members concerning the
Corruption? Surely you jest? I will not deign to reply to this. Our little trite scandals about housing purchases are not in the league of the little fiefdoms that politicians in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China, Indonesia, Malaysia and the rest of the world have established.
'High Wages of Singapore Ministers to Prevent Corruption' :
"The fact that the top echelon civil servants in Singapore are enjoying such high remuneration in itself is a form of corruption.
Any salary that is well above what that is actually needed for a "comfortable" life style is corruption.
The only difference between Singapore and the so-called corrupt-prone
countries is that Singapore's "corruption" is built into the salary. You don't ask for it. It is already given to you.
Actually a high salary is a reward for corruption.
I don't think high salary has any thing to do with corruption prevention. If you are corrupt, you are corrupt. This is vividly illustrated in the US by CEO's of large organisations. High salaries (plus shares) do not stop corruption. "
Was it a fact that 66.6% of the valid vote counted have been given to the PAP ?
As to the matter of disenfranchisement, 66.6% voted PAP. That is a fact. Voter turnout is amongst the highest at over 90% due to compulsory voting. People apparently seem to think that the PAP is doing an adequate job, contrary to the whining and complaining. Its simple to take pot shots from the sidelines, but few really appreciate the world class job that a dedicated elite has done for Singapore.[/b]
Was this a result of your generosity towards the PAP, or simply you allowed yourself to be gullible to the boast claims from the PAP ?
Shall I refer you to the following site post in the thread :
Lee, With Less Support, Gets Singapore `Wake-Up Call'Originally posted by LinYu: dated 20 May 2006 3.31 p.m.
Note that the valid votes to the PAP came only from the contested wards; what about the other 32 constituencies that were uncontested, and allowed the Ruling Party a walk-over victory ?
Food for thought?
Source http://www.elections.gov.sg/parliamentary2006.htm
Amk GRC total voters = 159,872
Workers Party = 49,468
Pappy = 96,591
Total valid votes = 146,059
This means spoilt votes/could'nt wake up to vote/squatting in QT remand so can't vote = 13,813
So our beloved elections department conviniently took the percentage of valid votes the Pappy won and declared that they took 66.13% of the vote, neglecting to mention that it is 66.13% of the valid vote.
Now if you look at it from the raw stats point of view,
AMK GRC Total 159,872 = 100%
WP = 49,468 = 30.94%
PAP = 96,591 = 60.42%
Invalid = 13,813 = 8.64%
Guess they calculated it the other way maybe because a 60% STRONG MANDATE (bwahahaha) might be a little too embarassing for the dragon prince? Apparantly the 13.8k voters who were too frightened to vote opposition but did not want to give a mandate to LHL did not matter to the elections department? Food for thought yes? -
double post
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Thank you for a well thought out reply, but I found that some of your responses didn't fundamentally respond to the issues I raised.
What industries have Singapore has that is comparable to that in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, or even Thailand - let alone comparing with China ?
Singapore does not have natural resources. It does not have a huge population. It does not have a competitive edge in low costs compared to the region. Yet, it is a bustling hub of international commerce, has a growing cultural identity and provides a standard of living far above our neighbors. What industries have fueled this growth? The Shipping sector, both in terms of trade and servicing of vessels. The strong commericial sector that provides a regional HQ for many international firms in South East Asia. You can scarcely be implying that our economic progress and policy are irrelevant when we were labeled as one of the asian tigers and are still the study subject for countries that have weathered the asian crisis successfully.
feverishly pushed Singaporeans to a higher technological level by gearing the education system towards industries that pay higher wages for higher skills.
As for your statement above, are you blaming them for your high wages during the good times? You would prefer Singapore to remain a country of sweatshops and cheap labor? Higher skill set = higher pay.
And please be realistic. I have never said that times were as good as the booming 90s. My argument was that even for the unfortunate few, they still have the neccessities, and they do have the option to search for a now position in the workforce. Noone is saying it will be easy for a 50yr old "grey hair" to find a new job but tell me where in Asia this is not the case.
You say a high wage is corruption? A top-rated Investment Banker draws as much and he only handles companies and finances. A Minister like LHL makes decisions for the entire country. The matter is not the money but the influence that money brings. Just look at the States, Japan or Korea, where being a politician is an expensive occupation. We pay our politicians well so that they can make unbiased decisions for Singaporeans, rather than focus on interest groups who can line their pockets.
Again, you blame the entire aging issue on the government campaigns? Then why aren't their current campaigns and incentives for rearing a family successful? They expending the same effort and money as before? An affluent society, especially one where the gap between rich and poor is not as exaggerated as America, always faces a slow down in population. Look at Europe, Japan, Korea, et all.
66.6%, 60%... Correct me if I am wrong but is that still not a majority? And is the PAP to be blamed if there is no opposition in most districts? Do you want them to create opposition against themselves? -
Well, after all's said and done, there will always be those who complain about the PAP. My point in all of this is not to glorify the PAP as the best or anything like that, but rather to let those who constantly call for a change of leadership to reexamine their motivations
Have they done such a bad job looking at the current global situation?
Have Singaporeans as a whole suffered from gross negligence?
Do the opposition have a clear road map on how they can fix certain issues facing Singapore or are they just gaining popularity by ragging on the incumbent party?
Is the opposition a CREDIBLE Body to pass over leadership of a country like Singapore?
A lot of dissatisfaction seems to rise from the fact that MM LEE is a vicious bastard to those who cross him. That's not in dispute. However, I am sure alot of people (unfortunately the demographic that doesn't log online to such forums) believe that his decisions and policies allowed Singapore to raise itself to its current place in the global order. Are they all wrong? -
I will not say how good or what great things the opposition will do for us, but here I am going to say what you will get when you vote the PXP into power again...
Vote for PXP means:
1) You accept their system of government, a system of trampling on the basic civil rights of the citizens. You have no right to free speech, and that means criticisms will be censored, or worse, interpreted as defamatory and be charged. Even when you criticize court cases or its sentencing, you will be treated as contmpt of court, and be fined or jailed. In other countries, when their govt deliver poor performance or overtax their citizens, they are allowed to demonstrate and protest. Not in this system we have - you talk and you will be in trouble.
2) You accept a system of stiff fiscal penalties, from paying ERP and COE, to buying and maintaining a public flat - either for reasons of "limited resource" to "market pricing" excuses. You will be so broke and in debt that in later life, retirement is something no longer availble to you. You will work until you drop dead.
3) You accept a system of totalitarian rule, with laws to tell you how many children you should have based on your academic attainment, to freezing your CPF money based on your inability to manage your own retirement.
4) You accept a system of state controlled media propaganda where only one side of the story is promoted, and television that shows monologues between the leaders and their citizens. Anything else will be censored.
5) You accept a system of non-functioning parliament - Members of Parliament, which you are going to elect as your voice in government, are not allowed to speak nor vote on your interest or welfare. No matter what the their party candidates promises you of "adding value in parliament" or to "help the poor and sick", they are prevented from doing so in parliament, for if they try to speak and vote on the peoples' behalf (that's their job, really) they will face party disciplinary action for not supporting all policy or law put forward by their party leader. What is the big deal, you ask. Well, it means in plain language, your voices are gagged in parliament, the nation's highest decision making assembly. It means you had been silenced by the government.
6) You accept a system of non accountability to the people - from absense of tansparency of the country's reserve, to details of how many citizens lost their jobs or were downgraded in salary or rank. Nor is there independent audited figures to tell us how many foreigners we let in took away mid- to senior positions from citizen workers. You may sacrifice your years doing National Service, but this govt system do not protect your jobs, do not really subsidize your healthcare or govt built homes, and leave you out in the cold with media silence and parliamentary gag. They can grab numbers from thin air and publish them for public consumption, and with transparency lacking, you never know if the govt took you for a ride.
7) You accept a system of unmoderated and excessive elitism in this govt system, where you get top posts from paper certificates and no measurement of their proficiency nor performance. In fact, these "elites" (some called them scholars) can get into parilament without a contest, get top public office positions without any relevant background, and continue to hold their posts without delivering any improvement to the public. Not only uou will be burdened with their generous financial rewards, you will also have to put up with their frequent cost increases that you, the public has to pay for.
You elect a govt who when it comes to writing laws, or finalizing policies, do not have the obligation to ask the people, even if such laws and policies affect every citizens' lives. You elect a big-brother-knows-all govt who speaks of public feedbacks but never take them into consideration nor acted on them. Faulty policies and unfair laws were passed and who will suffer? It's YOU. Not the govt, not the elites who makes the decisions. Did they listen to you? Acted for your interest? Or did they put you in debt by squeezing your hard earned money by way of taxes, levies, penalties, HDB flats, CPF distortions, and fines?
9) You accept a Party lacking in integrity - when the leader push his son into office, put his relative to manage our national reserves, put his buddies to administer the laws, use public money for their party interests, punish and prevent free speech and criticisms, disallow their MPs to speak and act for the citizens, maintains an army of mercenaries, allows citizen to be incarcerated into a mental institution at the president's pleasure, sue opposition leaders into bankruptcies, character assassinate political opponents, pretending to be whiter-than-white rascals, and remove any contest to the presidency election.
Get rid of the dictatorship. -
I do not entirely agree with extremely high pay = corruption. To some extent, the earnings that are due a person based on performance should be respected as such.Originally posted by kivichio:You say a high wage is corruption? A top-rated Investment Banker draws as much and he only handles companies and finances. A Minister like LHL makes decisions for the entire country. The matter is not the money but the influence that money brings. Just look at the States, Japan or Korea, where being a politician is an expensive occupation. We pay our politicians well so that they can make unbiased decisions for Singaporeans, rather than focus on interest groups who can line their pockets.
Again, you blame the entire aging issue on the government campaigns? Then why aren't their current campaigns and incentives for rearing a family successful? They expending the same effort and money as before? An affluent society, especially one where the gap between rich and poor is not as exaggerated as America, always faces a slow down in population. Look at Europe, Japan, Korea, et all.
66.6%, 60%... Correct me if I am wrong but is that still not a majority? And is the PAP to be blamed if there is no opposition in most districts? Do you want them to create opposition against themselves?
The issue of contention is the repeated insistence of MM Lee that a minister's salary is a non-discussion point. An OB marker so to speak. What kind of a leader whitewashes questions on ridiculously high salaries for ministers without offering even the slightest of explanations? MM Lee has long preached transparency as one of the hallmarks of his govt's integrity. So why does he demonstrate an action tangent to his words?
His son, as finance minister, claims that an 'undisclosed' formula is used to peg a minister's salary. Is there any dollar indication to prove each minister's worth? Does that account for the 'sudden' retirement of Yeo Cheow Tong as Transport Minister, who held an eventful tenure in-charge of improving and reaching the 'world-class' target for transportation?
As for decision-making, keep in mind that decisions are made collectively as a cabinet team, and the Prime Minister only 'appears' to make the final decision on television or on paper, as leader of the govt. In the case of MM Lee who travels the world seeking foreign investment, he is left entirely to his own devices, as who would dare tap the old man on his shoulder and tell him he made a mistake? Even from elements within his own party?
'Family planning' was nudged along the way with plenty of sweeteners including cash incentives and school subsidies for those who 'stop at two'. At a time when the average Singaporean was struggling to make ends meet, who could resist such huge carrots? Did the govt (LKY) make the wrong decision back then? Undeniably. But back then, they were terrified of the population explosion and probably fumbled at a means to control it. Instituting a stop-gap option was perhaps the only choice available. What they truly failed to do was monitor the birth rates and nudge the country back in the right direction, abeit gradually.
60% is unequivocally a shameful result, regardless of whether it is a majority. It is obvious that in a face-saving campaign, the papers printed the best possible result for the people so that the Ruling Party could bask in some glory. And hasn't the govt been trying, abeit meekly, to convince the people that there is no need for true opposition voices in parliament by offering their own party members as bait? Lifting of the party whip? etc etc?
Have you forgotten so quickly how the people threw out that ridiculous suggestion with their ballot by giving Venerable Chaim See Tong and Straight-talking Low Thia Khiang a STRONGER MANDATE in their wards, while all other contested grounds, save Bukit Panjang and Sembawang, finished with smaller margins for the Ruling Party? -
He sacrificed everything for the people, not politics. For those who think his efforts are in vain, he made some people, me included who once supported and believed in PAP, to awake from the fallacies of PAP. If PAP thinks they have won by "defeating" JB, then they are very wrong. Every JB they defeated, they win hundreds or even thousands of people like me who will hate PAP to the core for their bullying tactics and for that, I swear never ever to vote for PAP. Sometimes, battle victories are not easily recognized outright, but someday, people will look back and see how the efforts have been worth it. In all honesty, most of the people I know, I was surprised they are smart enough to understand how PAP has been monopolize the polictical scene and they don't like PAP either for that matter. I mean, how would anyone like their lives to be controlled and manipulated? Government says build casino they build, government say raise tax and GST they just go ahead, who cares what normal singaporeans think or say, they have no rights in this country!Originally posted by dragg:he sacrificed everything for politics.
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Originally posted by kivichio:
My apologies for not being able to provide a total reply in my last response, and I will attempt again to respond to your previous point :
Thank you for a well thought out reply, but I found that some of your responses didn't fundamentally respond to the issues I raised.
What industries have Singapore has that is comparable to that in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, or even Thailand - let alone comparing with China ?
Singapore does not have natural resources. It does not have a huge population. It does not have a competitive edge in low costs compared to the region. Yet, it is a bustling hub of international commerce, has a growing cultural identity and provides a standard of living far above our neighbors. What industries have fueled this growth? The Shipping sector, both in terms of trade and servicing of vessels. The strong commericial sector that provides a regional HQ for many international firms in South East Asia. You can scarcely be implying that our economic progress and policy are irrelevant when we were labeled as one of the asian tigers and are still the study subject for countries that have weathered the asian crisis successfully.Well, Singapore was able to manuever the worst of the Asian Crisises. We have avoided a stagnated economy like Japan (which has only recently begun to improve), did not need IMF aid like Korea, nor did we our industries suffer near record breaking bankruptcies (true across the board, especially in Korea, Taiwan and Thailand). China's economy is flourishing inspite of rather than because of her political leadership.
Comparing Singapore's small scrape in the 1997 and 2002 economic debacle with that of Korea, Taiwan and Thailand is not quite accurate.
Count ourselves lucky that our limited resources forced us into another direction of industry that is largely dependent on self-funded MNCs, and subsequent effects were much dampened that that of the Asian countries that you have compared Singapore with.
However, our PREVIOUS Asian Tiger status was driven not by our inner strengths of manufacturing or internal creative output that make us comparable to Korea, Taiwan or Thailand, as can be seen by our continued floundering in restructuring while the economies of Korea, Taiwan and Thailand are taking off with new found manufacturing and industrial creativity and new products for the World Market.
Have we anything similar to compare with - homegrown or MNC or otherwise ?
No, I am not blaming them for encouraging high wages during the good times; nor do I blame them for envisioning Singapore to move on to the next level.
feverishly pushed Singaporeans to a higher technological level by gearing the education system towards industries that pay higher wages for higher skills.
As for your statement above, are you blaming them for your high wages during the good times? You would prefer Singapore to remain a country of sweatshops and cheap labor? Higher skill set = higher pay.
However, I do blame them for continuously dabbling in making structural changes by using wages and CPF as a tool to force change - when at the same time they are such strong advocate of market forces as long as they can and are in control those forces.
Was it realistic to to push for such high wage levels - even during the good times - when Singapore labor productivity levels have been a source of concern by the Employers ?
This Employers' concerns were borne out by subsequent evaluations, which placed Singapore Worker productivity to cost ratio at the lowest level when compared to those workers from Korea, Taiwan or Thailand.
Please be assured, realism has never been far from my thoughts.
And please be realistic. I have never said that times were as good as the booming 90s. My argument was that even for the unfortunate few, they still have the neccessities, and they do have the option to search for a now position in the workforce. Noone is saying it will be easy for a 50yr old "grey hair" to find a new job but tell me where in Asia this is not the case.
It is not the unfortunate few, but a fair majority of the Singapore Upper and Lower Middle Income group that are finding themselves 'restructured' into unfamiliar territories - with new short term employment contracts, HDB mortgage financing taken over by "Private" Banks, continuously increase costs for basic services and food. The number in this Middle Income Group will soon dwindle, and the Lower Income Group may increase at the next survey.
This new Singaporean experience is being encountered against the backdrop of Government Linked Companies reporting stupendous annual increases in corporate earnings - while being the main employer of - (and at the same time being the biggest or sole providers of basic services to) - Singaporeans.
What about the other level of Singapore society - the Lower Income Group, and those that are BELOW the Lower Income Group ?
There are those that have occassionally hit the headlines, when their dead bodies begin to sift out of the one-room flats, or when they cannot afford to pay their Electric and Water Bills lead to their dark existence being discoverd, or when their rental default lead to eviction that pricks social conscience ?
Unfortunately, the state controlled media only dispense vast dosages of daily news that enhance the positive feel good spirit - after all how much can our senses tolerate the daily plights of ONE-roomers from the Singapore Heartlands ?
Incidentally, what kind of jobs do you think will be available to a 50year old - when I have seen young and qualified accounting graduates hawking, and young mechcnical engineer and graduates of other disciplines become taxi drivers ?