NS pay increases
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http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/primenews/story/0,1870,120188,00.html?
Wonder if this is enough to shut some people up(they know who they are), or do they still want more?
They'll probably find something else to bitch about, anyway.
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 17 May 2002).] -
well, as a father, I have forked around $500 to subsidise my son's monthly expenses while he is serving NS! I have no grouses except that his morale is depressing! It's high time that the govt is looking into their welfare or try to prop up their courage. Many feels that their allowances are worst than Sri Lakan maids. Their sacrifices are tremendous and training tough, make them happy so that they will stay on and defend a country called home.
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First and foremost, NS is not so much as to make money but rather learn some skill to defend thy country when in need. Agree that the pay is low but there's a large amt of singaporean serving it at anyone time. It's not justifable to pay them "market rate". Basing on some simple cal : 20,000 nsmen say drawing $1K per month will sum up to 20 million... To fuel these expenses, the govt will therefore have to increase gst to 25%, income tax 40% and so on. You want that?
My feeling for NS had being a mixed one.. During my days in NS, i join the crowd and start cursing and swearing. Looking back now, i realised how much i have learned from it. Setting aside the duty as a singaporean to serve my country, i had become more independent. Have learned the hardship of life and the fact that mom and dad are not alway there to give me whatever i want. Somehow.. i grown up after NS.
Looking at the bright side, unreaseanable treatment befall on us gave us also an oppoturnity to learn how to cope with it. Lookink back again, i had much more unreasonable traetment from my boss now then in NS.
Don't be depress. Take the responsbility like a man and go thru the 2 yrs with your head up. Treat it like a part of growing up journey. At the end, you will not regret those lessons and experiences gain. -
let's say your son, as recruit, earns about $200. you say you fork out an additional $500 per month for him? YOUR SON'S MONTHLY EXPENDITURE WORKS OUT TO $700???Originally posted by Heartlander:well, as a father, I have forked around $500 to subsidise my son's monthly expenses while he is serving NS!
where is the problem here, the nsf pay or your son's expenditure? considering that food and accommodation is taken care of, what does your son spend that $700 on? granted, the recruit's pay of $200 monthly is measly, but the root of your problem here is not the measly nsf pay, it is your son's grossly high monthly expenditure.
you said so yourself, our youths are making a sacrifice. it is a SACRIFICE, not a JOB. theres a difference. i did my time for the love of my country, not for the money, even if back then the money were high.I have no grouses except that his morale is depressing![/quote]
is your son so materialistic that his morale is dependant solely on his monthly allowance? furthermore, are you implying that money can buy our soldiers' happiness, our soldiers' morale?[quote] It's high time that the govt is looking into their welfare or try to prop up their courage. Many feels that their allowances are worst than Sri Lakan maids. Their sacrifices are tremendous and training tough, make them happy so that they will stay on and defend a country called home.
the SAF has done a whole lot to look into the welfare of our soldiers, sometimes too much. are you even aware, that today in tekong, recruits take air-conditioned buses into the jungle for their training? i am very sure that other fellow army resevists here upon knowing this welfare thrown at today's recruits, will shake their heads in wonder, as did i when i first saw with my own eyes the fleet of air-conditioned buses parked at the MT line of tekong, ready to transport our recruits.
so wat else do you want for your son, heartlander? air-conditioned bunks? five-course meals? one maid per section of troops?
this is ns we are talking bout, not a boarding school.
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RockerZ! -
As yourself had said...it is an *ALLOWANCE*. Their basic needs, food, clothing, housing is taken care of. $300++ for weekends....although not alot, is enough to get by. If he spend on movies, makan....that is his choice.Originally posted by Heartlander:well, as a father, I have forked around $500 to subsidise my son's monthly expenses while he is serving NS! I have no grouses except that his morale is depressing! It's high time that the govt is looking into their welfare or try to prop up their courage. Many feels that their allowances are worst than Sri Lakan maids. Their sacrifices are tremendous and training tough, make them happy so that they will stay on and defend a country called home.
As seow_leow said...we can't afford to pay NSF huge allowance, it will put a strain on our economy. But if you dear son signed on as a professional soldier, and did not get his due pay, then make your case. You must understand your son is serving his duty to his nation, and not a job!!
But think the restructing is long overdue. Cause is only fair that those who sweat like mad in the field, get more than those sitting in the office doing paperwork.
"NS is a duty to the country and not an employment. NSFs are therefore paid an allowance and not wages like salaried employees. The monthly NS allowance is meant for basic personal upkeep, taking into consideration that most NSFs stay in camp, where accommodation, food and clothing are provided." - Quote from Mindef site. -
Certain camps in Singapore are short of beds and checking out is a must for my son and to check in at the wee hour of the night is costly as taxi is the only mean of transport in order to report in time! If you are staying in one remote corner of Jurong and have to report to Tekong, how much you have to pay 3-4 times a week? Some of you may be out of touch with reality and please do not talk through your nose as I support my son for a good cause and no matter what has happened to him or any other NS men, it's a sense of duty well cater for!
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Why the f*** did the government spend millions of dollars to build an MRT system to connect the frigging island only to have you bitch about your baby boy having to take a taxi to report on time? Book in time is 2359 hrs LATEST, which means that assuming worst case 45 mins from Jurong to Pasir Ris MRT there will still be sufficient time for baby boy to take a bus from MRT to camp and report in on time and when bus/MRT services ARE STILL RUNNING. Which is not necessary because I know for a fact most if not all units(esp those which are housed in more remote places) provide chartered bus services to and from the nearest MRT nowadays. So theres no one else to blame but your own son for being lazy or not having enough brains to calculate the time he needs to get to camp on time by bus/MRT. I have cousins who stay in Jurong and were recruits at Tekong recently, if they had the ability to take MRT from home to Pasir Ris in time to catch the chartered bus by 1900 to book in on time why can't your son?Originally posted by Heartlander:Certain camps in Singapore are short of beds and checking out is a must for my son and to check in at the wee hour of the night is costly as taxi is the only mean of transport in order to report in time! If you are staying in one remote corner of Jurong and have to report to Tekong, how much you have to pay 3-4 times a week? Some of you may be out of touch with reality and please do not talk through your nose as I support my son for a good cause and no matter what has happened to him or any other NS men, it's a sense of duty well cater for!
Stay out unit? Big fucking deal. I made $450 at most while serving NS even as a 3SG in 1999, in a stay out unit. I never had to ask my parents for a single cent from the minute I entered NS, even as a recruit making $200(or $180 including deductions) I stayed at Bt Timah and was based in Tekong for BMT, traveled to and from the island, had to pay my own pager/mobile bills, all my expenses and even had savings to buy my own scanner using my own earnings(remember this is 1997 where a $500 scanner is considered cheap). Not a single cent came from my parents, though I turned down repeated offers from them to supplement my income.
Blame your own baby boy for not knowing how to live within his means, and you for indulging him.
My monthly expenses in Australia, excluding utilities and rent, don't even approach $700. I can only imagine what kind of lifestyle baby boy leads.
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 17 May 2002).] -
In time of war got taxi or not???
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Couldn't said it better myself...Originally posted by seow_leow:In time of war got taxi or not??? -
since when did tekong have a shortage of beds? when i was there, there were too many beds! and all new 'king coil' beds unlike the rusty, rickety 'spring-net' beds of the old camps. to my knowledge, all nsf personnel assigned to tekong regardless of post are assigned a bunk for the simple reason that it is understood the difficulties personnel may face if they were to commute to and from tekong everyday.Originally posted by Heartlander:Certain camps in Singapore are short of beds and checking out is a must for my son and to check in at the wee hour of the night is costly as taxi is the only mean of transport in order to report in time! If you are staying in one remote corner of Jurong and have to report to Tekong, how much you have to pay 3-4 times a week?
book-in at the wee hours of the night? the last fast craft into tekong is 2330hrs, do you pamper your son so much that you consider 11.30pm as 'wee hours of the night'? and with this timing, how can one be unable to take public transport? the last train is 11.45pm, later than the last fast craft, and service 89 from pasir ris still runs at this time.
i am in serious doubt as to whether your son truly is reporting into camp as he claims. perhaps you may wish to investigate if he is sneaking off somewhere without your knowledge. that would explain a lot, especially his grossly high monthly expenditure and his 'reporting in at the wee hours of the night'.
well-catered for? but my impression from your posts is that you are arguing that it is NOT well-catered for?Some of you may be out of touch with reality and please do not talk through your nose[/quote]
i dont talk thru my nose. i, as well as some others here, have been through it all, some even worse than your son. i too went thru BMT in tekong. i was even posted to tekong. i live in bt panjang, so i know what its like to commute long distances to and from tekong, for over a year i did that. if ever i took the taxi, it was my fault for being late, there is no way that the booking in timing was so late that public transport has ceased.
i know everyhting about fast craft timings into tekong, booking-in times, accommodation, etc.
i went thru ns surving solely on my nsf allowance and not a single cent from my parents.
i know what its like. do you? or is your knowledge based only on hearsay from your son?[quote] as I support my son for a good cause and no matter what has happened to him or any other NS men, it's a sense of duty well cater for!
its good that you support your son. parents play a vital role where moral support is concerned. but perhaps you may wish to re-examine the form of the support that you are providing.
i am not here to teach you how to raise your son. that is your responsibility and your privilege. what i am saying is, i get the impression that there is something seriously wrong with what your son is telling you about his difficulties with ns. the problems that he is facing do not seem to stem from a lack of welfare from the SAF. -
Heartlander, I think its just wiser to ask ur son to get out of the house earlier and make his way as quick as he can. 11.30pm isn't THAT late. If thats the last ferry to tekong, he should be waiting for the ferry by 11.15pm, and shouldn't even incur midnight charge if he takes cab.
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Well, I think heartlander's opinions reflect those that many singaporeons have, in that since we all have to serve NS and have no choice and are forced to, that the government "owes us one". In a sense, it is true which is why America stopped conscription after a while due to human rights issues. (conscription is actually a violation of human rights)
However, if everyone were to adopt this kind of attitude, then who is going to serve NS, and how is the government going to be able to pay for it? Some compromises have to be made. We can choose to compare ourselves to women who don't have to serve NS at all, or the well-paid soldiers in countries where conscription is not practiced; but why not compare ourselves to the conscripts in Russia who have it worse than us? Or the people living in third-world dictatorships where they would willingly trade some of their rights if that could buy them a better and safer life?
I guess what I am trying to say is that I can understand where heartlander is coming from, but that doesn't mean I agree with it, at least not entirely. Just try to compromise a bit, and see why the government has to do what its doing now. Also, like I said earlier, just try to appreciate what you have instead of complaining about what you don't have. I think NSmen in Singapore can be considered well-paid mercenaries by conscription standards already. As a sidenote, I think women should serve NS too but that's a completely different issue.
[This message has been edited by chamenos (edited 19 May 2002).] -
nsf allowance is definitely due for a raise. but the rate is too high. 75% is such a tremendous jump. i would say a rate of 30% would be better.
the rest of the money should be sent to where they really need, if we are talking about welfare to our soldiers: upgrading and renovation of the old camps. some of our old camps are in a terrible state. the buildings are in dire need of repainting, they are still using decades-old beds and cupboards, facilities are not working, etc, etc. perhaps this is due to the fact that upkeep of the camp is the responsibiltity of the camp's resident unit, and money for upkeep comes from the annual budget allocated to these camps. this money goes into a lot of other things and is often not enough for upkeep. i say it would be better if money is allocated to such camps specifically for upgrading or renovation to make them more comfortable for our troops. -
Yup. I agree. The money should be spent on maintaining the buildings etc. My toilets dont flush, and a trip to the toilet is like a trip to hell. As one who will benefit from this allowance increase, I would be hypocritical to say that I am not happy, but still, I feel that the money is better spent elsewhere.
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Still recall last time, we had to come out with our own money to paint the bunk, repair toilets etc, and the allowance was abt $240 then. =(Originally posted by YourFather:Yup. I agree. The money should be spent on maintaining the buildings etc. My toilets dont flush, and a trip to the toilet is like a trip to hell. As one who will benefit from this allowance increase, I would be hypocritical to say that I am not happy, but still, I feel that the money is better spent elsewhere.
But I rather they give us the money, then build all those golf courses. It doesn't benifit the majority of the NSman. -
Blanket generalisations of what is and what is not a human rights violation(be it by the UN, US, Amnesty International or any individual), without taking into account of the unique conditions that exist in different countries, is not only wrong, but obnoxiously arrogant.Originally posted by chamenos:In a sense, it is true which is why America stopped conscription after a while due to human rights issues. (conscription is actually a violation of human rights)
Chamenos, the terms "conscripted mercenary" is an oxymoron. -
I believe that if you are claiming to be supporting your son for a good cause, you wouldn't be posting this here.Originally posted by Heartlander:well, as a father, I have forked around $500 to subsidise my son's monthly expenses while he is serving NS! I have no grouses except that his morale is depressing! It's high time that the govt is looking into their welfare or try to prop up their courage. Many feels that their allowances are worst than Sri Lakan maids. Their sacrifices are tremendous and training tough, make them happy so that they will stay on and defend a country called home.
Everyone is surviving on what they have, and some with even worse financial situations. Don't you think that by 'helping' your son in this way is just saying that he has all the financial backing to do what he wants? Everyone has their kind of lifestyle, what your son has, is definitely luxurious, considering he only need to pay for transport and necessities.
The only solution is for him to curb his lifestyle, or to change his camp from Tekong to Changi, where he will pride from wearing a red beret and having $500 more than all of his peers. I believe with the increments, he can expect at least $600 more.
Good luck to you and i hope your son is enjoying his time in NS. Everyone goes through this phase, so we'd know what he's been through and where he's coming from. Maybe you can even ask him to post some comments for us?? We'd be most glad to provide solutions, don't we???
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I delicate this songz to Heartlanders son ^_^
Count himself damn unlucky for not even getting to eat authentic cook house food ^_^
(to the tune of Hotel California)
Down Seletar Expressway, cool wind in my
hair
Warm smell from the cookhouse,Â
Rising up through the airÂ
Up ahead in the
distance, I saw a fluorescent lightÂ
Nee Soon Medical Centre
I had to stop for
the nightÂ
There they stood in the doorway, my OCÂ
And PC as wellÂ
I was thinking
to myselfÂ
This can't be Heaven, this has to be HellÂ
And they opened the
tonner, and they showed me the wayÂ
There were sergeants down that corridor,Â
I
thought I heard them say...
Welcome to the Hotel BMTCÂ
Such a garang place (such a
garang place),Â
Such a garang faceÂ
Kena confine at the Hotel BMTCÂ
All throughout
the year (all throughout the year),Â
You can find me hereÂ
His mind was certainly
twisted,Â
He had a sadistic bentÂ
He had a lot of other PTIs he calls "friends"
Going round the parade square
Sweet summer sweatÂ
Route march to remember,Â
Route
march to forgetÂ
So I called up the OO,Â
I said "Sir, I want to die"
But he
said, "We haven't had a suicide here since 1999."
And still those voices
are calling from far awayÂ
Wake you up in the middle of the nightÂ
Just to hear
them sayÂ
Welcome to the Hotel BMTCÂ
FAIBEE-AXE! (FAIBEE-AXE!)Â
Faibee-axe
Plenty of canteen breaks at BMTCÂ
What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise)
Get your alibisÂ
Lizards on the ceiling, houseflies in your eyesÂ
We are all just
prisoners here of the Army's deviceÂ
And in the Specialists' Chambers, they
gathered for the feastÂ
They stabbed it with their plastic knivesÂ
But they just can't cut the beefÂ
Last thing I rememberÂ
I was running for the doorÂ
I had to
find a passage back to the place I was beforeÂ
"Relac ah, brudder," said the
RP, "until you ORD...
"You can book out anytime you likeÂ
But you can
never leave!" -
Blanket generalisations of what is and what is not a human rights violation(be it by the UN, US, Amnesty International or any individual), without taking into account of the unique conditions that exist in different countries, is not only wrong, but obnoxiously arrogant.
Conscription was scrapped in America, mostly due to the Vietnam War, where American (male) citizens were forced to fight and die in a war they didn't believe in or understand.
I think you're missing the point here; I was merely trying to draw a comparison between the situation in America when conscription was still in practice, and the situation in Singapore. The similarity present is that people in general do not like conscription since it violates their "right of choice", and provokes the same emotions. I did not at all mention that conscription in Singapore should be scrapped, as it was in America, just because it is a violation of human rights.
No where did I obnoxiously and arrogantly try to blanket-generalize what is and is not a human rights violation. A human right violation, is a human violation in any country, and in any unique condition that may exist in said countries. A human right violation, may however be more excusable and understandable in the different countries, if the unique situations that exist in them are taken into account.
For example, conscription in Singapore, though a violation of human rights, is excusable and understandable when viewed in a local context where the population is just too small to support a regular (non-conscription) armed force. Same way, the lack of freedom of speech in China, though a violation of human rights, is excusable and understandable when viewed in China's context, where the population is way too large to effectively control or allow dissent and rebellion, or other forms of anarchy.
In either example stated above, a violation of human rights is -still- a violation of human rights, just that these violations are excusable and understandable in the unique conditions that exist in both countries.
As a more direct comparison, giving someone a death sentence does violate his right to life. But when taking in consideration that person killed 10 other people when unprovoked and with malicious intent, this violation of human rights becomes more excusable and understandable.
I think you have misinterpreted what I have said in my earlier post and perhaps you should re-read what I said.
Blanket generalizations of what is and what is not a blanket generalization of human rights violation, without taking into account the unique situation that may exist in the different contexts of different arguments, is not only wrong, but obnoxiously arrogant.Chamenos, the terms "conscripted mercenary" is an oxymoron.
Again, I don't think you've taken into consideration where I used the idea of a "conscripted mercenary"
This is what I wrote: "Also, like I said earlier, just try to appreciate what you have instead of complaining about what you don't have. I think NSmen in Singapore can be considered well-paid mercenaries by conscription standards already."
From the above, I was trying to draw a comparison between well-paid merceneries, and conscripts who aren't paid a cent. Singapore NSmen obviously fall into the middle, where we are conscripts, but are still paid; or given "allowance", etc. We are still given money for serving time in the military. Like I said in the earlier post, NSmen in Singapore can be considered well-paid mercenaries by conscription standards already.
I was trying to put our situation in perspective of how conscripts usually are not paid a cent, in trying to address Heartlander's complaints that NSmen were not getting "paid" enough, since NSmen are considered conscripts.
What I said is akin to saying, "I think cats in Singapore can be considered well-taken care of pets by wild-animal standards already." So yes, a "conscripted mercenary" is an oxymoron, and so is a "well-taken care of wild animal", and neither make sense.
However, if the context in which these terms are used is taken into consideration, such as a comparison intended to put a situation into perspective, then it makes sense.
To repeat myself again, blanket generalizations of what is and what is not an oxymoron, without taking into account the unique situation that may exist in different contexts in different arguments, is not only wrong, but obnoxiously arrogant.
Perhaps you should read more carefully and practice what you preach -
This song rocks!!!!! HOhohOHoh!Originally posted by greengoblin:I delicate this songz to Heartlanders son ^_^
Count himself damn unlucky for not even getting to eat authentic cook house food ^_^
(to the tune of Hotel California)
Down Seletar Expressway, cool wind in my
hair
Warm smell from the cookhouse,Â
Rising up through the airÂ
Up ahead in the
distance, I saw a fluorescent lightÂ
Nee Soon Medical Centre
I had to stop for
the nightÂ
There they stood in the doorway, my OCÂ
And PC as wellÂ
I was thinking
to myselfÂ
This can't be Heaven, this has to be HellÂ
And they opened the
tonner, and they showed me the wayÂ
There were sergeants down that corridor,Â
I
thought I heard them say...
Welcome to the Hotel BMTCÂ
Such a garang place (such a
garang place),Â
Such a garang faceÂ
Kena confine at the Hotel BMTCÂ
All throughout
the year (all throughout the year),Â
You can find me hereÂ
His mind was certainly
twisted,Â
He had a sadistic bentÂ
He had a lot of other PTIs he calls "friends"
Going round the parade square
Sweet summer sweatÂ
Route march to remember,Â
Route
march to forgetÂ
So I called up the OO,Â
I said "Sir, I want to die"
But he
said, "We haven't had a suicide here since 1999."
And still those voices
are calling from far awayÂ
Wake you up in the middle of the nightÂ
Just to hear
them sayÂ
Welcome to the Hotel BMTCÂ
FAIBEE-AXE! (FAIBEE-AXE!)Â
Faibee-axe
Plenty of canteen breaks at BMTCÂ
What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise)
Get your alibisÂ
Lizards on the ceiling, houseflies in your eyesÂ
We are all just
prisoners here of the Army's deviceÂ
And in the Specialists' Chambers, they
gathered for the feastÂ
They stabbed it with their plastic knivesÂ
But they just can't cut the beefÂ
Last thing I rememberÂ
I was running for the doorÂ
I had to
find a passage back to the place I was beforeÂ
"Relac ah, brudder," said the
RP, "until you ORD...
"You can book out anytime you likeÂ
But you can
never leave!" -
yeah nice song
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do i need extra money if i go to the army? is there anything i can buy in the army?