FTs - Stop Giving Them.......
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It has been argued that Singapore needs FTs, at least in certain fields. I'll buy that but stop giving them PRs and Citizenships. This is going to draw a lot of flake from the FTs/former foreigners who lurk in this forum.
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aiyo! why so short-sighted? Most of our S'porean ancestors came here as FTs, right? If our ancestors were not given the rights to stay here in S'pore (ie citizenship), then where will you and I be???
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When our ancestors came here, the environment was totally different from what it is today. The population was small, opportunities aplenty and the place was just opening up. They built this place. It's not the same now. Jobs are increasingly more difficult to come by and the pie is not getting bigger, at least not fast enough. That's why we can't have the FTs nibbling at it and straining our infrastructure as well. If their "talent" are needed here, fine, let them work here. Give them work permits or whatever but not citizenship.
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Concepts and assumptions are concepts and assumptions. Usually they are unproven or untruths. It will be worse it such assumptions are just excuses for government to shift their responsibility to look after its own citizens.
It is certainly not good corporate governance to govern a country based on some wild assumptions which run contrary to our basic social fabric like loyalty of government to citizens begets loyality of citizens to the nation.
If we need a few Foreign talents here and there for certain specialist areas of works and professions, just confine the permits and privileges specifically for such categories but not across the board or let employers choose freely among the cheapest labor force in the world.
People stick out the neck for their government doing NS and paying certain high fees and taxes and chipping in in bad time to forego certain CPF to employers. So why should people's interest be taken so lightly on some unproven assumption that all foreign talents will be talents and allow employers to take them as they like across the board.
Due to lack of accountability to the people over the past 40 years many policies were formulated based on such unproven assumption resulting in high costs of living which cause our loss of economic competitiveness and many problems as posted to the feedback unit.
Today, there is a tendency to govern the whole nation by assumptions of all kind, including lately the assumption that pro-PAP ward will object to upgrading for Potong Pasir or Hougang wards according to objective schedule.
Assumptions about contribution of foreign talents is too general and sweeping. It is right for citizens to stand their ground and desist from being over-whelmed by such highly risky and fallacious assumptions which tend to excuse the government of problems and inefficiencies.
Leaders should be held accountable to all such assumptions as otherwise we may just one day lose all the jobs and opportunities to more foreigners without even foreigners contributing anything to the economy or job creations as assumed.
We might end up foreigners taking us for a ride and leaving us at the next downturn for their own country of origin.
Why work on assumptions over such matter as citizens loyalty and government's duty to preserve jobs and opportunities for their own citizens. -
I think it is very simple. Our rules regarding citizenship for FT should mirror those of the countries the FT come from.
Meaning, if their country welcomes Singaporeans, then we should welcome their citizens. If their country have strict policies against emigration, we should apply the same to their citizens seeking to come here.
I am sick of seeing so many foreigners here from countries that make it near impossible for us Singaporeans to work/live in, even when we are more than qualified. -
Quote: "If we need a few Foreign talents here and there for certain specialist areas of works and professions, just confine the permits and privileges specifically for such categories but not across the board or let employers choose freely among the cheapest labor force in the world. "
That in essence is the gist of the problem concerning the FT policy. -
when you chabot out of Singapore to another country, so you'll be FT ? PR ? ... or unwanted immigrants ? ..... -
Adopt an open skills admission system like the Australians do.
Only industries which lack specific skill-sets amongst its workers should be given permits to hire from abroad.
We DO NOT need a flood of workers who are duplicating skills/services found here. -
I read some of these foreigners such as Indian national good in IT skill compared to the local which is the reason they were invited to work.
Some of the foreign professionals worked in Spore to use this country as a base to other country to work. The important thing is as long as they contribute, they should be welcomed with open arms.
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that's just a self-propagating myth ..... there's nothing that the Indians can do and the local chaps can't .......Originally posted by will4:I read some of these foreigners such as Indian national good in IT skill compared to the local which is the reason they were invited to work.
Some of the foreign professionals worked in Spore to use this country as a base to other country to work. The important thing is as long as they contribute, they should be welcomed with open arms.
there's only one reason: competitive wages ......
and I can tell you, it's a global tide .... you can run, but you can't hide .... any country you can think of running off too ... the Indians and the Chinese professionals are there in force too .... and worse, you'll be competing for jobs in the same level with them too .....
best advice ... don't stop learning and upgrading your skills ... if you demand higher pay, then you sure as hell got to have the skillset to back it up ... in this global era, it's the only way ..... you can b.itch, you can whine, you can petition the goverment to kick them out and keep them out, but ultimately, the forces of economics are going to decide things for you ... you think by keeping people out you can keep your job ? ... heck, the whole company will relocate overseas anyways ... -
Well saidOriginally posted by Fatum:that's just a self-propagating myth ..... there's nothing that the Indians can do and the local chaps can't .......
there's only one reason: competitive wages ......
and I can tell you, it's a global tide .... you can run, but you can't hide .... any country you can think of running off too ... the Indians and the Chinese professionals are there in force too .... and worse, you'll be competing for jobs in the same level with them too .....
best advice ... don't stop learning and upgrading your skills ... if you demand higher pay, then you sure as hell got to have the skillset to back it up ... in this global era, it's the only way ..... you can b.itch, you can whine, you can petition the goverment to kick them out and keep them out, but ultimately, the forces of economics are going to decide things for you ... you think by keeping people out you can keep your job ? ... heck, the whole company will relocate overseas anyways ... -
exactly...but some people just want to whine, encouraged by certain opposition party supporters..Originally posted by Fatum:that's just a self-propagating myth ..... there's nothing that the Indians can do and the local chaps can't .......
there's only one reason: competitive wages ......
and I can tell you, it's a global tide .... you can run, but you can't hide .... any country you can think of running off too ... the Indians and the Chinese professionals are there in force too .... and worse, you'll be competing for jobs in the same level with them too .....
best advice ... don't stop learning and upgrading your skills ... if you demand higher pay, then you sure as hell got to have the skillset to back it up ... in this global era, it's the only way ..... you can b.itch, you can whine, you can petition the goverment to kick them out and keep them out, but ultimately, the forces of economics are going to decide things for you ... you think by keeping people out you can keep your job ? ... heck, the whole company will relocate overseas anyways ...
Britain used to be the world's supplier of textiles and steel before and just after the Industrial Revolution. The jobs of their textile workers, steel workers and miners have all gone to cheaper economies...yet Britain is very successful by becoming the world's biggest financial centre. If British workers have to pick up new skills, why should we be exempted?
Protecting jobs will not work in the long run. However, I do not object to protecting low-skilled jobs in the casino for Singaporeans...the casino should be an exception in that it can afford to pay high wages and its operation can have an adverse effect upon Singaporeans. Giving its waiters higher pay will not significantly affect its bottomline at all.. -
stop being so xenophobic. s'pore's domestic market is not big enough to generate the wealth that we have today. that's why we have an outward-looking policy. and when we are 'outward-looking', we become part of the whole globalization process. this openess also means that we s'poreans have to let in foreign workers (both work permit and employment pass) to our job market.
being a dynamic workforce is one of the things that will give s'pore the edge over our cheaper competitors. imagine that if you are Microsoft or Dell or IBM...would you set up base in s'pore if our emplyment rules make it almost impossible for you to hire foreigners to work for you? -
sigh..childish, naive, xenophobic locals who can't even type in proper english lamenting about the same old topics over and over again. as a singaporean myself i'd gladly give the jobs to talented foreigners over these nimwitts who think jobs will come to them if nobody else takes it and everything falls from the sky
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Previously, a malaysian/indon?
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Then this is placing a question on what I saw in Australia - they were offering FRESH australian graduates the chance to work in Singapore ( and no it is not the native english teachers) . The Singaporean company just basically told one girl (my friend) that Immigration will give 6 month temp visa to find a job in Singapore about a year ago . She got it and went to Singapore to work.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:exactly...but some people just want to whine, encouraged by certain opposition party supporters..
Britain used to be the world's supplier of textiles and steel before and just after the Industrial Revolution. The jobs of their textile workers, steel workers and miners have all gone to cheaper economies...yet Britain is very successful by becoming the world's biggest financial centre. If British workers have to pick up new skills, why should we be exempted?
Protecting jobs will not work in the long run. However, I do not object to protecting low-skilled jobs in the casino for Singaporeans...the casino should be an exception in that it can afford to pay high wages and its operation can have an adverse effect upon Singaporeans. Giving its waiters higher pay will not significantly affect its bottomline at all..
That boggles me on the purpose of a foreign talent policy . If we are to look for people with talent and experience - why pick up fresh foreign graduates without experience? And this girl's pay is higher than what most singaporean overseas graduates would be paid. So that defeats the purpose of lowering wages.
Why train a foreigner when your local graduates require the work experience and then open the doors to foreigners claiming there are no experienced singaporeans ? Isn't that a revolving door syndrome ? Anyone care to explain? -
And her results were not that fantastic either - just average passes
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I can accept that we need some FTs.
But to me it seems that the government is doing it to the point of overkill. Giving subsidies to some less-privileged but talented foreign students is fine with me, but it seems that every single fella who's a foreigner can get those subsidies. It seems to me that the government worships anything that's foreign while telling the locals to shut up and stop whining.
And I can safely say that some of these so-called FTs can't even hold a candle to what our local students can do. I know, because I've faced off against a number of them in class, and they really can't perform academically. Some of them do barely well enough to stay in NUS. -
you are a local singaporean yourself. i guess the description of "childish, naive, xenophobic" applies to you effectively.Originally posted by vito_corleone:sigh..childish, naive, xenophobic locals who can't even type in proper english lamenting about the same old topics over and over again. as a singaporean myself i'd gladly give the jobs to talented foreigners over these nimwitts who think jobs will come to them if nobody else takes it and everything falls from the sky -
well said. to them, locals can't generate peanuts.Originally posted by fudgester:It seems to me that the government worships anything that's foreign while telling the locals to shut up and stop whining. -
Was it any surprise that Saturday (1 July) edition of the Straits Times had again said that wages OUTSTRIP productivity ?
What has caused wages to outstrip productivity ?
With local unemployment hovering around 3 percent, what sector of the economy has caused this low productivity and such high wages ?
Have we not learn enough from so two prolonged recessions ? -
just hit the nail on the head with that one.Originally posted by Fatum:that's just a self-propagating myth ..... there's nothing that the Indians can do and the local chaps can't .......
there's only one reason: competitive wages ......
and I can tell you, it's a global tide .... you can run, but you can't hide .... any country you can think of running off too ... the Indians and the Chinese professionals are there in force too .... and worse, you'll be competing for jobs in the same level with them too .....
best advice ... don't stop learning and upgrading your skills ... if you demand higher pay, then you sure as hell got to have the skillset to back it up ... in this global era, it's the only way ..... you can b.itch, you can whine, you can petition the goverment to kick them out and keep them out, but ultimately, the forces of economics are going to decide things for you ... you think by keeping people out you can keep your job ? ... heck, the whole company will relocate overseas anyways ...
as them democrats'd say
"its the economy, stupid"(= -
Unfortunately, you have hit it on the head.Originally posted by fudgester:I can accept that we need some FTs.
But to me it seems that the government is doing it to the point of overkill. Giving subsidies to some less-privileged but talented foreign students is fine with me, but it seems that every single fella who's a foreigner can get those subsidies. It seems to me that the government worships anything that's foreign while telling the locals to shut up and stop whining.
And I can safely say that some of these so-called FTs can't even hold a candle to what our local students can do. I know, because I've faced off against a number of them in class, and they really can't perform academically. Some of them do barely well enough to stay in NUS.
We are throwing money at foreign students to come here so that they can laugh at how stupid we are. At the same time, Singaporeans have to be BONDED in order to get to study without paying fees.
To my little brain, something doesn't quite add up here.
obiterdicta -
this is precisely the source of all the discontent. Not because we are anti-immigrant, but they have to show that they can add value to the economy in more ways than mere wage competitiveness. We cannot always base our economy on wage differential, because that is not one major push for innovation or any emphasis on skill elevation.Originally posted by fudgester:I can accept that we need some FTs.
But to me it seems that the government is doing it to the point of overkill. Giving subsidies to some less-privileged but talented foreign students is fine with me, but it seems that every single fella who's a foreigner can get those subsidies. It seems to me that the government worships anything that's foreign while telling the locals to shut up and stop whining.
And I can safely say that some of these so-called FTs can't even hold a candle to what our local students can do. I know, because I've faced off against a number of them in class, and they really can't perform academically. Some of them do barely well enough to stay in NUS.
NUS has many foreign students who drop out after 1 or 2 years.Do they learn much? Are they diffusing their knowledge or hard work to us? I've not seen much, save for a few exceptions.Some of them are beggingly pathetic at their studies that they resort to leeching and etc.
Simply put, they should stop paying lip service to entrance prerequisites and TOEFL requirements.I'm but a student and a layman, but the impression that ITE students may have better academic qualities than at least half of the foreign students that are on campus, is very strong.
Talent has to be well-defined according to needs.Why open the dam when you don't have a sieve? You'd only spend extra effort cleaning up the reservoir, and it neutralises any theoretical advantage balanced immigration brings. If they can contribute in areas we cannot, they will make it big naturally. Why be the welfare agency for mediocrity when we have students here who struggle to pay their fees.
Halt the banal talk on wages, it's getting tiring.It's time to show why citizenship is supposed to be more valued than mere residency.You want to build a cohesive nation, make sure the balance is well-kept, and not unduly skewed.
The process of making Singapore Inc a versatile nation, is not easy.So don't make it harder by choosing to ignore the harsh reality that uncontrolled input into globalisation is not always the best way to go.In the end, you may gain a cheaper workforce, but not a cohesive society because you only appease the lowest common denominator.
Move beyond this labor argument and seek to develop our heartware, our tertiary and academia. -
This is the reason some foreign student n workers became arrogant to the extent soem of them looked down on the locals.Originally posted by The Peacemaker:well said. to them, locals can't generate peanuts.