Civilians suffer when army becomes political tools
-
News update reported two more Israeli soldiers taken hostage.
First salvos from tank formation and air strike by jets of Israeli forces mark the incursion of Gaza, who wanted to create a buffer zone from rocket fire of militants.
Palestine side, the militants continue to strike Israeli civilians targets with rockets.
Israeli military struck civiliansÂ’ installation such as the power station at the beginning of the incursion resulting in 750,000 Palestine civilians without power supply.
Creating of a buffer zone against rockets fire and saving a kidnapped soldier is the justification given for military aggression resulting in usurping of othersÂ’ sovereignty.
Civilians both side suffer when soldiers and tanks become tools of political agenda.
Small State like Singapore that spend billions in defence, armed to the teeth already, ought to refrain from insensitive purchase such as aggressive and very expensive Apache helicopters which would end up as white elephants or worst cause an arms race in the region which lead to the endless vicious cycle of tensions and arms purchase.
And did the historical baggage of Spore resulted in not issuing statement to urge restraint on the Israelis let alone condemnation? Yet quick to comment on N Korea missile launch when it is very much the arena of the world powers.
Comments, views pls -
It is unfortunate that after the Israelis have withdrawn from the Gaza area, and returning the land to the Palestinians, the Hamas Government "allowed" its activists to attack an Israeli guard post (located on Israeli soil) and to kidnap an Israeli Draftee-Soldier as hostage for negotiations.Originally posted by qpicanto:News update reported two more Israeli soldiers taken hostage.
First salvos from tank formation and air strike by jets of Israeli forces mark the incursion of Gaza, who wanted to create a buffer zone from rocket fire of militants.
Palestine side, the militants continue to strike Israeli civilians targets with rockets.
Israeli military struck civiliansÂ’ installation such as the power station at the beginning of the incursion resulting in 750,000 Palestine civilians without power supply.
Creating of a buffer zone against rockets fire and saving a kidnapped soldier is the justification given for military aggression resulting in usurping of othersÂ’ sovereignty.
Civilians both side suffer when soldiers and tanks become tools of political agenda.
It was an unproked and senseless attack by the Hamas activists, which resulted in deaths on both sides during the attack, and with the safety of the kidnapped Israeli soldier becoming an added burden to Hamas game-plan.
The Israeli response was heavily punitive to show that they will not tolerate such Hamas attacks - whether kidnapping an Israeli citizen or a military personnel.
The strong and continuing Israeli military push - at the risk of endangering the life of the kidnapped soldier - clearly show that they will exact a high price from the Hamas provocation.
The Israeli seems to make it clear that no such actions will have any beneficial outcome - that even with a final exchange of prisoners (if it happens), the other costs to damaged properties and additional lives lost will have to be taken into final accounting.
Hamas will experience a "hollow victory" after all events are taken into consideration.
As much as the Israeli actions can be seen to be justifiable, it is unforgiveable that the safety of civilian has not been given priority during the Israeli military actions.
Are the Israelis to be blamed singly in their military actions that resulted in collateral damage to civilian lives and properties ?
Unfortunately, being provoked by the indiscriminate rocket attacks by Hamas activists on Israeli civilian townships does not make callous Israeli military action any more justifiable.
However, as outsiders to the conflict, without being immersed into the psychic of the daily Israeli-Palestinian Life - can we give any definite and fair comments to the actions taken by both sides ?
The Apache helicopters, F-16 C/D planes, new stealth Frigates, adopting of submarines warfare - and investments in the development of the F-35 Future Fighter Plane - are all not 'White Elephants'.
Small State like Singapore that spend billions in defence, armed to the teeth already, ought to refrain from insensitive purchase such as aggressive and very expensive Apache helicopters which would end up as white elephants or worst cause an arms race in the region which lead to the endless vicious cycle of tensions and arms purchase.
We will never know when the crunch comes, and raising the expertise levels to be able to defend ourselves will require us to train for at least five to ten years; and all these trainings will be expended in a short and explosive conflict that will determine our future,
Can we afford to sleep and then learn the art of military warfare in six months or a year - depending on when we perceive a threat to be one, before stepping onto the starting block to begin training ?
How much time do we need to develop the expertise and smoothen out the kinks in managing the intricacies of mobilising, co-ordinating an army of different specialists weapons and support systems; all trained to be integrated to provide one decisive punch to decide an outcome in as short as possible one explosive moment in time ?
Our SAF has taken a course of 40 years - from 1966 to this date - to be where we are today.
Looking back at the early days of 1966, can the SAF of that year - with the weapons systems of that period - give us any credible deterrent against anyone who may wish us harm, or can we contribute to regional security in any convincing way when facing current potential threats ?
Without a "credible stick in our drawer" - will anyone take us seriously to be able to look after ourselves, and contribute to any regional team efforts ?
Why take a negative view as an "Arms Race" ?
Look at it as a "Positive Regional Contribution " to our "mutually assured security and survival "
Although Singapore was aided by Israeli to help set up the early SAF - almost immediately after Singapore was evicted from Malaysia, our gratitude has to be tempered by the morality of the events.
And did the historical baggage of Spore resulted in not issuing statement to urge restraint on the Israelis let alone condemnation? Yet quick to comment on N Korea missile launch when it is very much the arena of the world powers.
Comments, views pls
Can we allow our moral values to take second place as a result of gratitude ?
During the April 1996 UN General Assembly debate on a 'Resolution Condemning Israeli military attacks against the civilian population in Lebanon - which was introduced by Indonesia - Singapore spoke out against attacks on civilians and supported the resolution.
Prior to this, the Singapore UN Representative also made clear our position in a speech to the UN General Assembly:
BILAHARI KAUSIKAN (Singapore) said that, while Israel had claimed the right to security, Lebanon, too, had legitimate rights to security and territorial integrity. All States in the region should enjoy the same rights which should be respected. Any attacks against civilian targets were unwarranted. The world deplored terrorist acts and military attacks against civilian populations. The deaths of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) peace keepers was also a cause for concern. The United Nations force should not be obstructed and the safety of its personnel and the civilians it protected ensured.
He welcomed Security Council resolution 1052 (1996) adopted on 18 April, expressing the hope that it would be implemented immediately. The Assembly should also strongly and directly reaffirm the importance of a comprehensive, just and lasting settlement of the Middle East conflict as a significant contribution to international peace and security, as set out in General Assembly resolution 50/21 of 4 December 1995
General Assembly Plenary - 4 - Press Release GA/9069 116th Meeting (AM) 25 April 1996 -
FYI, Israel moving into lebanon. Bombed their airport this morning. Its escalating like fire on fuel there...
-
France criticised Israel's campaign including Beirut airport attack as a 'disproportionate act of war'.Originally posted by Pitot:FYI, Israel moving into lebanon. Bombed their airport this morning. Its escalating like fire on fuel there... -
Having a big airforce that combined with 200 Bionixs armoured vehicles seen to be a open-secret strategy or wat people call forward strategy that mimick that of 1948 Israel preemtive war tactics.Originally posted by Atobe:
The Apache helicopters, F-16 C/D planes, new stealth Frigates, adopting of submarines warfare - and investments in the development of the F-35 Future Fighter Plane - are all not 'White Elephants'
Are we exhibiting disproportion act of arming ?
Many fighters jets might be effective in airstrike but Spore airspace is small, wat signal we giving to others ? How many fighter jets do we really need ?
50,100,1000 etc Who decides ? citizens or politicians ??
Also Singapore perceived strategy may suit the Israelis more.
Comments pls -
It is not disproportionate once you look beyond our traditional "threats". A threat can come from anywhere, and the most volatile geo-political threats are in North Asia.Originally posted by qpicanto:Having a big airforce that combined with 200 Bionixs armoured vehicles seen to be a open-secret strategy or wat people call forward strategy that mimick that of 1948 Israel preemtive war tactics.
Are we exhibiting disproportion act of arming ?
Many fighters jets might be effective in airstrike but Spore airspace is small, wat signal we giving to others ? How many fighter jets do we really need ?
50,100,1000 etc Who decides ? citizens or politicians ??
Also Singapore perceived strategy may suit the Israelis more.
Comments pls
The RSAF and RSN doctrine is changing to meet a more expeditionary and bluewater threat beyond our little shores and into the South China Sea. SLOCs are our lifeblood, and we need to show we can defend the Straits of Malacca or at least present a formidable deterrent.
Not to be arrogant, but which Armed Forces in SEA has the ability to defend the South China Sea or have AWACs coverage up to the Spratlys? I'm not talking about equipment alone, but a cohesive system in place?
Bionix and other new armour/anti-armour vehicles will serve the SAF in good stead as we seem to be moving towards more peacekeeping roles.The trend is there, and defence spending is still decent and not over the top in my opinion. -
Yes, most of our equipment for the SAF are just pure 'white elephants' or 'paper tigers'. We just don't have the personnel to fully utilise the equipment to persecute a war against those who seek to undermine our national sovereignity. Another well-known meaning for SAF is Serve And F**k off. Most of our NSmen do not have the correct training nor mindset to win any wars that will happen in the future.
In any case, civilians will always be the ones to suffer whenever any instrument of the goverment become political tools. -
Originally posted by qpicanto:
If we look at the air space around Singapore, should we confine our vision to "the block of air space rising skywards and bounded by the limits of our ground borders only " ?
Having a big airforce that combined with 200 Bionixs armoured vehicles seen to be a open-secret strategy or wat people call forward strategy that mimick that of 1948 Israel preemtive war tactics.
Are we exhibiting disproportion act of arming ?
Many fighters jets might be effective in airstrike but Spore airspace is small, wat signal we giving to others ? How many fighter jets do we really need ?
50,100,1000 etc Who decides ? citizens or politicians ??
Also Singapore perceived strategy may suit the Israelis more.
Comments pls
Or, should we view the air space of the entire South-east Asian region as our operational zone ?
Can we defend ourselves only when the threat enter the block of air space rising vertically skywards - defined by the internationally recognised border lines ?
If your answer is negative to the above, then the size of our airforce is not too big for our defense needs.
With regards to the Bionix armored personnel carriers, these serve as "battlefield taxis" - providing fast movement and protection for our valuable personnel when moving into the thick of battle, and also serving as a direct heavy fire support to cover the "fire and movement" of the disembarked soldiers.
Are the 200 armored personnel carriers too many, when the total strength of the SAF Infantry personnel far exceed this number ?
It is the usual civilian problem - not enough taxis when you need them most on a rainy day.
The decision on the numbers are decided by a committee formed by the Heads of the SAF Specialist Arm, the office of the General Staff, the Civilian-Political heads in the Ministry of Defense, and with supporting advise from the Specialists at DSTA and DSO.
In Singapore, the policy of weapon systems is not based on some vanity of personal dream or ambitions, but on well thought out defence philosophies that guide in the forming of integrated weapon systems and platforms based on some strategic objectives.
The current airforce size working with the navy ensures our national interest is not threatened all along our lines of communication - on the surface of land, sea, and below - as well as in the air.
These lines can be threatened beyond immediate national boundaries, and extend Westward (or NWW) - up the entire Straits of Malacca into the Bay of Bengal; Eastward (or NE) - into the entire South China Sea; Southwards - in the south-west-west direction towards the Sunda Straits to Perth, and Darwin in the other south-eastern direction.
This is a huge expanse of water, which our navy cannot be everywhere at the same time, and the navy cannot be effectively making any appearance with any immediate timeliness that the airforce can offer.
If the defense posture is similar to the Israelis, it is co-incidental and a result of similar thinking of a small nation.
The difference between the Israeli and Singapore experience is obvious when we view the many bilateral defence arrangements that Singapore has with our neighbors - which is non-existent between Israel and her neighbors.
Singapore is in a region where all countries subscribed to the concept of regional co-operation and mutual respect and working through ASEAN.
Unfortunately, Israel is in a neighborhood where no one accept their existence from the moment the country was artificially carved out - by colonial rulers - from the Land which the Israelis (or more accurately the Jews as a nation and a people) had disappeared in their history, and with a new country imposed by colonial rulers on those who had lived there for historical generations. -
To start with, are you a Singaporean ? Have you served National Service ?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Yes, most of our equipment for the SAF are just pure 'white elephants' or 'paper tigers'. We just don't have the personnel to fully utilise the equipment to persecute a war against those who seek to undermine our national sovereignity. Another well-known meaning for SAF is Serve And F**k off. Most of our NSmen do not have the correct training nor mindset to win any wars that will happen in the future.
In any case, civilians will always be the ones to suffer whenever any instrument of the goverment become political tools.
If both are in the negative, is there any point in discussing this any further ?
However, if you are a Singaporean and have yet to serve NS, then be a little more patient and you will have the opportunity to be one of those personnel to ensure that the SAF equipment will not be "just pure white elephants".
The NSmen are people like you and I, and if everyone is like you - believing that the SAF is what you claimed to be "Serve And F * * k" , then how do you expect any of our NSmen to "have the correct training nor mindset to win any wars".
I am not sure of your confident certainty that "wars will happen in the future" - or that any country will threaten Singapore that will need our SAF to be mobilized to fight a war to defend our shores.
Will Singapore be involved in any joint-operations in support of any UN sanctioned military efforts ?
It is unlikely that the Singapore Government will allow any of our NS conscripted soldiers to participate in any foreign wars that place our NS draftee soldier in any direct line of fire.
Can Singapore afford to lose our limited manpower in any fight on foreign shores, and for a war that is no immediate concern to us ?
We can contribute to such efforts in areas that do not put our limited and valuable manpower resource in any direct line of fire - similar to our Navy and Airforce personnel performing secondary support service away from the combat zone, but still providing and ensuring security along parallel lines to the battle area.
If you think that many equipment are all wrapped up in tarpaulin and put in mothball is an indication that "we just don't have the personnel to fully utilise the equipment to persecute a war" then you are mistaken.
Most of the equipment in storage will be utilised when the entire SAF is mobilized to face any threats, and there will be enough for replacement of equipment that have been damaged or destroyed in the course of war.
With the efficient minds of the General Staff, DSTA and DSO and working on the foundations laid by two great Defence Ministers' minds in Dr Goh Keng Swee and Dr Tony Tan - rest assured that the SAF will be potent.
Those who "farked around" during training will learn the hardway when the crunch comes, and a price will be paid either with their lives lost, or that of their buddy whom they are supposed to work as a team.
Whether the SAF is a credible force or not is not determined merely by concepts, weapon systems or platforms, but by the attitude of you and I - who should speak up and correct what we see is wrong, as much as we get the flak for doing so.
If you are not in a position of authority to change, then work to ensure that you get into that positon of authority - unless if you decide to throw in the towel and decide to let your next generation to experience the same system again. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Basically the defence policy has expanded the reach of the air force very much at the expense of the Navy. The Navy modernisation perhaps was view as less effective and agggressive in 'land grab' forward strategy. Navy only got a boost last few years with larger vessels despite the fact that Spore is surrounded by seas and that the strategic importance of Malacca Straits is there all along.
If we look at the air space around Singapore, should we confine our vision to [b]"the block of air space rising skywards and bounded by the limits of our ground borders only " ?
Or, should we view the air space of the entire South-east Asian region as our operational zone ?
Can we defend ourselves only when the threat enter the block of air space rising vertically skywards - defined by the internationally recognised border lines ?
If your answer is negative to the above, then the size of our airforce is not too big for our defense needs.
With regards to the Bionix armored personnel carriers, these serve as "battlefield taxis" - providing fast movement and protection for our valuable personnel when moving into the thick of battle, and also serving as a direct heavy fire support to cover the "fire and movement" of the disembarked soldiers.
Are the 200 armored personnel carriers too many, when the total strength of the SAF Infantry personnel far exceed this number ?
It is the usual civilian problem - not enough taxis when you need them most on a rainy day.
The decision on the numbers are decided by a committee formed by the Heads of the SAF Specialist Arm, the office of the General Staff, the Civilian-Political heads in the Ministry of Defense, and with supporting advise from the Specialists at DSTA and DSO.
In Singapore, the policy of weapon systems is not based on some vanity of personal dream or ambitions, but on well thought out defence philosophies that guide in the forming of integrated weapon systems and platforms based on some strategic objectives.
The current airforce size working with the navy ensures our national interest is not threatened all along our lines of communication - on the surface of land, sea, and below - as well as in the air.
These lines can be threatened beyond immediate national boundaries, and extend Westward (or NWW) - up the entire Straits of Malacca into the Bay of Bengal; Eastward (or NE) - into the entire South China Sea; Southwards - in the south-west-west direction towards the Sunda Straits to Perth, and Darwin in the other south-eastern direction.
This is a huge expanse of water, which our navy cannot be everywhere at the same time, and the navy cannot be effectively making any appearance with any immediate timeliness that the airforce can offer.
If the defense posture is similar to the Israelis, it is co-incidental and a result of similar thinking of a small nation.
The difference between the Israeli and Singapore experience is obvious when we view the many bilateral defence arrangements that Singapore has with our neighbors - which is non-existent between Israel and her neighbors.
Singapore is in a region where all countries subscribed to the concept of regional co-operation and mutual respect and working through ASEAN.
Unfortunately, Israel is in a neighborhood where no one accept their existence from the moment the country was artificially carved out - by colonial rulers - from the Land which the Israelis (or more accurately the Jews as a nation and a people) had disappeared in their history, and with a new country imposed by colonial rulers on those who had lived there for historical generations.
[/b]
These are political decisions, citizens have a right of input as far as the defence policy is concerned. How can we best ensure the degree of aggressiveness of our defence posture is not over emphasized. Especially relevant in our political climate where keys cabinets posts are drawn from the military -
The Middle East crisis has pushed the crude oil to breach the US$78 per barrel. US $ also up.
Israeli Ambassor to UN just said that it is a respond not an aggression.
Indonesia has asked the UN to intervene.
US urged for release of Israelis soldiers and military restraint.
What Mr Olmert the PM of Israel hopes to achieve really? -
I guess he may be trying to prevent an unfavourable precedence to be set by letting the neighbouring states know that its not ok to kidnap his soldiers, its not ok to shoot rpgs into his country, etc.Originally posted by qpicanto:The Middle East crisis has pushed the crude oil to breach the US$78 per barrel. US $ also up.
Israeli Ambassor to UN just said that it is a respond not an aggression.
Indonesia has asked the UN to intervene.
US urged for release of Israelis soldiers and military restraint.
What Mr Olmert the PM of Israel hopes to achieve really?
Although the morality and effectiveness of his actions are largely questionable. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
I did my 2 years plus of nonsense and I still sense that our NSmen are not ready. I learnt the Serve And Fark Off meaning off from my unit officers, and really have to admit that it's true. Comparing our boys to the Israeli Defence Force, we really seem very nua... SAF isn't ready for total war which differs from Just War which we guys are very well trained... The Israelis eat so much nonsense from Hamas and Hizbollah that they can drop the niceties of war and do things that may get them charged in the Hague Court. Are anyone of us ready to commit atrocities? I seriously doubt so.
To start with, are you a Singaporean ? Have you served National Service ?
If both are in the negative, is there any point in discussing this any further ?
However, if you are a Singaporean and have yet to serve NS, then be a little more patient and you will have the opportunity to be one of those personnel to ensure that the SAF equipment will not be [b]"just pure white elephants".
The NSmen are people like you and I, and if everyone is like you - believing that the SAF is what you claimed to be "Serve And F * * k" , then how do you expect any of our NSmen to "have the correct training nor mindset to win any wars".
I am not sure of your confident certainty that "wars will happen in the future" - or that any country will threaten Singapore that will need our SAF to be mobilized to fight a war to defend our shores.
Will Singapore be involved in any joint-operations in support of any UN sanctioned military efforts ?
It is unlikely that the Singapore Government will allow any of our NS conscripted soldiers to participate in any foreign wars that place our NS draftee soldier in any direct line of fire.
Can Singapore afford to lose our limited manpower in any fight on foreign shores, and for a war that is no immediate concern to us ?
We can contribute to such efforts in areas that do not put our limited and valuable manpower resource in any direct line of fire - similar to our Navy and Airforce personnel performing secondary support service away from the combat zone, but still providing and ensuring security along parallel lines to the battle area.
If you think that many equipment are all wrapped up in tarpaulin and put in mothball is an indication that "we just don't have the personnel to fully utilise the equipment to persecute a war" then you are mistaken.
Most of the equipment in storage will be utilised when the entire SAF is mobilized to face any threats, and there will be enough for replacement of equipment that have been damaged or destroyed in the course of war.
With the efficient minds of the General Staff, DSTA and DSO and working on the foundations laid by two great Defence Ministers' minds in Dr Goh Keng Swee and Dr Tony Tan - rest assured that the SAF will be potent.
Those who "farked around" during training will learn the hardway when the crunch comes, and a price will be paid either with their lives lost, or that of their buddy whom they are supposed to work as a team.
Whether the SAF is a credible force or not is not determined merely by concepts, weapon systems or platforms, but by the attitude of you and I - who should speak up and correct what we see is wrong, as much as we get the flak for doing so.
If you are not in a position of authority to change, then work to ensure that you get into that positon of authority - unless if you decide to throw in the towel and decide to let your next generation to experience the same system again.
[/b] -
that you do not walk into a nation and kidnap soldiers, an act of criminality against a person of war.Originally posted by qpicanto:The Middle East crisis has pushed the crude oil to breach the US$78 per barrel. US $ also up.
Israeli Ambassor to UN just said that it is a respond not an aggression.
Indonesia has asked the UN to intervene.
US urged for release of Israelis soldiers and military restraint.
What Mr Olmert the PM of Israel hopes to achieve really?
You want, you engage them head-on.If you kidnap, then the gloves come off.
I'd do the same as Olmert if I had my soldiers kidnapped.I'd have my people to answer to too.. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
My sympathies are with you if your impression has been formed by some NSF Officers or NCOs - who may not be as motivated as the corp of commanders during the early days of National Service; when the complaint - of the early NS days - was that the commanders were "too real" playing soldier.
I did my 2 years plus of nonsense and I still sense that our NSmen are not ready. I learnt the Serve And Fark Off meaning off from my unit officers, and really have to admit that it's true. Comparing our boys to the Israeli Defence Force, we really seem very nua... SAF isn't ready for total war which differs from Just War which we guys are very well trained... The Israelis eat so much nonsense from Hamas and Hizbollah that they can drop the niceties of war and do things that may get them charged in the Hague Court. Are anyone of us ready to commit atrocities? I seriously doubt so.
The officers of early NS days were then reputed to be "heartless task masters" - as they were trained by the Israelis and were also not from the 1949 age group first to be called up for NS.
Those in the first NS call-up group that formed the corp of commanders were from the Civil Service, or teachers, or transferred from some other government agencies to help provide the initial leadership corp - were resentful but mature, and had a sense of purpose and understanding.
Has the initial pioneering spirit dissipated after forty years - as a result of restrictions to commanders' privileges and initiattives due to the implementation of guidelines to rein in the excesses of overzealous and abusive commanders - believing themselves to be Rambo-like veterans, swaggering with Ray-ban sunglasses and all ?
As the years passed, the book of guidelines for do's and don'ts seems to get thicker with each training accident, or death of a NSF soldier.
Throughout the forty years of National Service, the SAF has depended on the same pool of young Singaporean males - unprepared, poor physique, poor attitude, apprehensive - although the youths of today seems to take more pride in body building and physical training.
The backbone of the SAF is formed by NSF Citizen-Soldiers, similar to the Israeli Defense Force, whose soldiers are also largely made up of Israelis Citizen-Soldiers.
The recent case of the Israeli Corporal who was kidnapped by Hamas look more like a "nerd, or a computer geek" then the tough IDF soldier you had described.
Despite "geeks" like this Israeli Corporal - the IDF still has a formidable reputation, which is not built from the effort of any single soldier, but the sum total of everyone pushing themselves to achieve the objectives of the mission.
The reputation of the SAF is very highly recognised amongst the Defense community in South-east Asia; highly complimented from those whom we exercise with; and our equipment and training levels are the envy of our neighbors.
Our pilots have the highest flight hours compared to the training hours available to some of our neighboring countries due to their tight budget constraints dictated by a poor economy.
Are we prepared to commit atrocities when the crunch comes ?
It depends on the cause and motivation that push our mind and body to do the impossible.
Part of the SAF training is to help us to toughen and condition our bodies and minds, to discover those part of ourselves that is left in the dark and never seen the light of day.
Did you know that you had the stamina to last out the 5km run within the set time limit, or the torturous route marches with full battle packs ?
You probably did not know that you had the fear of height, and that you can overcome that fear by trusting your instinct, your training, and your buddies ?
Did you feel the power of the 5.56mm bullet each time you pull the trigger ?
What were the thoughts in your mind each time you look down the target range and pull the trigger ?
Surely you must have felt the agressive anger when pushed to the limit by unreasonable commanders giving "truly stooooopid" orders ?
The darkside of your mind will automatically show up when you feel yourself being threatened, pushed to a corner, fearful for your safety and that of your loved ones, and the loyalty and camaradie with your NSF buddies will get you to do the next impossible thing in self-defense so as to survive - and what constitute atrocities will no longer seem so during war.
There will be situation when your moral judgment will be demanded - as can be seen in the current case when a platoon or section of US soldiers had suffered war fatigue, with their moral judgment and values being lost when they gang raped an Iraqi girl, and shooting her family members to death.
Everyone has a dark side in our personality and character, moderated by the better side with our values, our upbringing, our education, and our family ties.
The depth of these values will determine how each and everyone of us will respond and be ready to make sacrifice for the real values that we placed in those close to our lives, and for the abstract values of defending our country, our way of life, our home.
For our sake, when in a military uniform, you should hone your animal instinct to survive, to be constantly alert for danger, to be keen in your senses - sight, hearing, smell and taste, be cunning and swift in the process of the mind.
The animal instinct is vital for your survival to be available at the beginning of each day.
Like in the computer game, your extermination will be useless to the group and can only handicap the advance to the next level. -
Originally posted by qpicanto:
Although the Straits of Malacca is an international waterway and open to all military or civilian ships from all nations, the rights to protect and ensure safety and security rest with Malaysia and Indonesia.
Basically the defence policy has expanded the reach of the air force very much at the expense of the Navy. The Navy modernisation perhaps was view as less effective and agggressive in 'land grab' forward strategy. Navy only got a boost last few years with larger vessels despite the fact that Spore is surrounded by seas and that the strategic importance of Malacca Straits is there all along.
These are political decisions, citizens have a right of input as far as the defence policy is concerned. How can we best ensure the degree of aggressiveness of our defence posture is not over emphasized. Especially relevant in our political climate where keys cabinets posts are drawn from the military
Singapore has no business for the SAF up the Straits of Malacca, although we have the "Rights of Passage".
It is only when the sea lane is specifically blockaded to prevent ships from arriving into Singapore that the SAF will be called to ensure that the Sea Lanes are not shut by some declared foreign government policy.
The air force has the ability to provide immediate response, and is critical to both land and sea forces - as without air cover, both forces will be easily neutralised - as was seen in WW-2, when the British battleship and Cruiser were both sunk by a small Japanese air force off the east coast of Peninsular Malaya. During the "Yom-Kippur War" the Israeli air force was neutralised by the Egyptian SAMs brought cloer to the front line, and allowing the Egyptian land forces to successfully retake the Sinai Peninsula.
The power of the air force is a huge force multiplier to the land or sea forces.
If you notice, the development of the SAF has been on a step-by-step incremental advance, from providing an immediate home defense; to a defensive philosophy of attack in depth - (although not declared ) ; and now a Defense Force that is able to project its presence far beyond our shores.
The Navy has seen new investments with newer LST - that resemble a smaller scale USN LSD - that provide new abilities for the SAF to perform long range missions.
The new SAF investments in the Stealth Frigates will provide force protection for the long range missions met with the new LST; and when both are operated with the newly acquired submarines - the SAF will be able to provide a very credible expeditionary force to counter any threats to Singapore, or in support of any missions that serve and meet the values of Singapore.
Those SAF personnel - drawn into Politics and Government service - will probably know the true capabilities of the SAF; especially those who have served and risen through the rank and file - unlike those who flew a straight bee-line, red-carpetted path to the top.
They will know that although the SAF is a potent force, it has its limitation in terms of the limited resource pool of manpower that is available to support any missions of war activities.
The only way for Singaporeans to exercise our rights - to influence government policies and appointments from the SAF - is during the Elections.
If we feel that there are too many politicians are drawn from the SAF, perhaps Singaporeans will not cast their ballot in favor of any single or GRC candidates that are from the SAF. -
As a small State like Singapore what r your opinions on the impact of US influence on our defence policy? The projection of force could have been co-opted into the overall strategy of US Foreign policy?Originally posted by Atobe:Although the Straits of Malacca is an international waterway and open to all military or civilian ships from all nations, the rights to protect and ensure safety and security rest with Malaysia and Indonesia.
Singapore has no business for the SAF up the Straits of Malacca, although we have the "Rights of Passage".
It is only when the sea lane is specifically blockaded to prevent ships from arriving into Singapore that the SAF will be called to ensure that the Sea Lanes are not shut by some declared foreign government policy.
The air force has the ability to provide immediate response, and is critical to both land and sea forces - as without air cover, both forces will be easily neutralised - as was seen in WW-2, when the British battleship and Cruiser were both sunk by a small Japanese air force off the east coast of Peninsular Malaya. During the "Yom-Kippur War" the Israeli air force was neutralised by the Egyptian SAMs brought cloer to the front line, and allowing the Egyptian land forces to successfully retake the Sinai Peninsula.
The power of the air force is a huge force multiplier to the land or sea forces.
If you notice, the development of the SAF has been on a step-by-step incremental advance, from providing an immediate home defense; to a defensive philosophy of attack in depth - (although not declared ) ; and now a Defense Force that is able to project its presence far beyond our shores.
The Navy has seen new investments with newer LST - that resemble a smaller scale USN LSD - that provide new abilities for the SAF to perform long range missions.
The new SAF investments in the Stealth Frigates will provide force protection for the long range missions met with the new LST; and when both are operated with the newly acquired submarines - the SAF will be able to provide a very credible expeditionary force to counter any threats to Singapore, or in support of any missions that serve and meet the values of Singapore.
Those SAF personnel - drawn into Politics and Government service - will probably know the true capabilities of the SAF; especially those who have served and risen through the rank and file - unlike those who flew a straight bee-line, red-carpetted path to the top.
They will know that although the SAF is a potent force, it has its limitation in terms of the limited resource pool of manpower that is available to support any missions of war activities.
The only way for Singaporeans to exercise our rights - to influence government policies and appointments from the SAF - is during the Elections.
If we feel that there are too many politicians are drawn from the SAF, perhaps Singaporeans will not cast their ballot in favor of any single or GRC candidates that are from the SAF. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
The bestial nature of humans is not always wanted in a war, as it doesn't help the war effort. For example, the raping of the Iraqi girl or the infamous Japanese Sok-ching from WWII doesn't endear the civilians to the victors. Knowing when to apply atrocities is different from getting creative with cruelty. During SISPEC or BMT, is there any course on applying atrocity to enemies? Does any soldier in the SAF know how to use any Biological or Chemical weapon? Does anyone here know how to preserve human meat for consumption in the South East Asian climate. If it's not possible to get intel or MP personnel to extract information to return to one's own lines, do you know how to extract information? That's what I mean when our guys are very nua in the SAF.
My sympathies are with you if your impression has been formed by some NSF Officers or NCOs - who may not be as motivated as the corp of commanders during the early days of National Service; when the complaint - of the early NS days - was that the commanders were "too real" [b]playing soldier.
The officers of early NS days were then reputed to be "heartless task masters" - as they were trained by the Israelis and were also not from the 1949 age group first to be called up for NS.
Those in the first NS call-up group that formed the corp of commanders were from the Civil Service, or teachers, or transferred from some other government agencies to help provide the initial leadership corp - were resentful but mature, and had a sense of purpose and understanding.
Has the initial pioneering spirit dissipated after forty years - as a result of restrictions to commanders' privileges and initiattives due to the implementation of guidelines to rein in the excesses of overzealous and abusive commanders - believing themselves to be Rambo-like veterans, swaggering with Ray-ban sunglasses and all ?
As the years passed, the book of guidelines for do's and don'ts seems to get thicker with each training accident, or death of a NSF soldier.
Throughout the forty years of National Service, the SAF has depended on the same pool of young Singaporean males - unprepared, poor physique, poor attitude, apprehensive - although the youths of today seems to take more pride in body building and physical training.
The backbone of the SAF is formed by NSF Citizen-Soldiers, similar to the Israeli Defense Force, whose soldiers are also largely made up of Israelis Citizen-Soldiers.
The recent case of the Israeli Corporal who was kidnapped by Hamas look more like a "nerd, or a computer geek" then the tough IDF soldier you had described.
Despite "geeks" like this Israeli Corporal - the IDF still has a formidable reputation, which is not built from the effort of any single soldier, but the sum total of everyone pushing themselves to achieve the objectives of the mission.
The reputation of the SAF is very highly recognised amongst the Defense community in South-east Asia; highly complimented from those whom we exercise with; and our equipment and training levels are the envy of our neighbors.
Our pilots have the highest flight hours compared to the training hours available to some of our neighboring countries due to their tight budget constraints dictated by a poor economy.
Are we prepared to commit atrocities when the crunch comes ?
It depends on the cause and motivation that push our mind and body to do the impossible.
Part of the SAF training is to help us to toughen and condition our bodies and minds, to discover those part of ourselves that is left in the dark and never seen the light of day.
Did you know that you had the stamina to last out the 5km run within the set time limit, or the torturous route marches with full battle packs ?
You probably did not know that you had the fear of height, and that you can overcome that fear by trusting your instinct, your training, and your buddies ?
Did you feel the power of the 5.56mm bullet each time you pull the trigger ?
What were the thoughts in your mind each time you look down the target range and pull the trigger ?
Surely you must have felt the agressive anger when pushed to the limit by unreasonable commanders giving "truly stooooopid" orders ?
The darkside of your mind will automatically show up when you feel yourself being threatened, pushed to a corner, fearful for your safety and that of your loved ones, and the loyalty and camaradie with your NSF buddies will get you to do the next impossible thing in self-defense so as to survive - and what constitute atrocities will no longer seem so during war.
There will be situation when your moral judgment will be demanded - as can be seen in the current case when a platoon or section of US soldiers had suffered war fatigue, with their moral judgment and values being lost when they gang raped an Iraqi girl, and shooting her family members to death.
Everyone has a dark side in our personality and character, moderated by the better side with our values, our upbringing, our education, and our family ties.
The depth of these values will determine how each and everyone of us will respond and be ready to make sacrifice for the real values that we placed in those close to our lives, and for the abstract values of defending our country, our way of life, our home.
For our sake, when in a military uniform, you should hone your animal instinct to survive, to be constantly alert for danger, to be keen in your senses - sight, hearing, smell and taste, be cunning and swift in the process of the mind.
The animal instinct is vital for your survival to be available at the beginning of each day.
Like in the computer game, your extermination will be useless to the group and can only handicap the advance to the next level.
[/b] -
What makes you think we have fallen short in that area?
-
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Bestiality refers to animal sexualities - how does that come into this discussion ?
The bestial nature of humans is not always wanted in a war, as it doesn't help the war effort. For example, the raping of the Iraqi girl or the infamous Japanese Sok-ching from WWII doesn't endear the civilians to the victors. Knowing when to apply atrocities is different from getting creative with cruelty. During SISPEC or BMT, is there any course on applying atrocity to enemies? Does any soldier in the SAF know how to use any Biological or Chemical weapon? Does anyone here know how to preserve human meat for consumption in the South East Asian climate. If it's not possible to get intel or MP personnel to extract information to return to one's own lines, do you know how to extract information? That's what I mean when our guys are very nua in the SAF.
It is not the cruel bestial nature that is desired but the animal instinct to survive and the traits that help the animal to survive that is needed for humans to be able to survive in a hostile environment.
The keen senses of the animal is lacking in humans accustomed to civilized living - how often are our sense honed to receive and discern - from a distance - the sights, sound, smell and tastes from the cacaphony of daily living ?
BMT and SISPEC are not the place to learn interrogation techniques - it is not part of the course at this level of training - as there is no need for it.
If you believe that Singaporeans are incapable of cruelty, think again.
Human cruelty towards another human exist in different forms every day in our lives - you and I cannot deny nor prevent this.
Some put their thoughts into actions and run foul with the Law, and have the Police hunting the offenders; those captured are tried and sentenced to be punished in creative ways devised by the Human Mind - to exact some compensation for the pain and suffering that was dispensed by the offender.
Others do it in a legal environment - as conducted by the Singapore ISD or Internal Security Department, SIS - and all remain untouched until a death occur during the "work in progress".
What do you think happened to the two Commando Trainees who died while training to resist cruel interogation techniques ? -
This is the trouble as the majority of the oil supply came from the Middle East.Originally posted by qpicanto:The Middle East crisis has pushed the crude oil to breach the US$78 per barrel. US $ also up.
Israeli Ambassor to UN just said that it is a respond not an aggression.
Indonesia has asked the UN to intervene.
US urged for release of Israelis soldiers and military restraint.
What Mr Olmert the PM of Israel hopes to achieve really? -
Originally posted by qpicanto:
Your questions are very interesting, and make me wonder if you are a student of defense policy ?
As a small State like Singapore what r your opinions on the impact of US influence on our defence policy? The projection of force could have been co-opted into the overall strategy of US Foreign policy?
Singapore is fortunate to be in a strategic geographical location that became even more important to the US Defense Strategic Plans when the Singapore Government invited US Defense Forces to use the Singapore Defense facilities.
In a region that is largely hostile to the presence of US Defense Forces - which has seen the withdrawal of base facilities and request for their transfer from most existing host countries - the Singapore offer can only be received as a refreshing welcome, that is valued highly by the US Defense Establishment.
This offer from the Singapore Government was not made out of altruistic reasons, as it also serve our own strategic interest to have the USA in our midst - despite the concern of our immediate neighbors and those not so near.
In order for Singapore not to be seen as a 'lackey' to the US geopolitical interests, the US Government must have been encouraged by the Singapore Government to spread the benefits of its presence around the region.
US Navy ships are sent for repairs in Malaysia; the ban was lifted on military contacts with Indonesia and aid continued to the Indonesian Armed Forces; relationship with Vietnam was restarted with new economic ties established; military aid and specialist training was given to the Philippines - despite having been evicted from the Clarke and Subic bases.
Singapore's Defense Policy is totally independent from that of the US, and there is no treaty of alliance between Singapore and the USA.
Given our small population and limited resources, it is unlikely that Singapore can be an equal defense partner to the USA - on the same basis as UK and the EU countries, or South Korea, and Japan.
Defense co-operation will only be in research and development; equipment commonality; and familiarity in operation planning, strategies and tactics; sharing of intelligence through regular exchanges in dialogues,
The SAF concept of force projection is part of our own overall defense strategy of "defense through aggressive attack in depth beyond our shores"; and has little to do with any scope of being an ally of the USA in any military operations. -
There is no excuse for harming civilians during an armed conflict, worst still when two opposing sides indiscriminately engage in a firefight with civilians inbetween.Originally posted by qpicanto:News update reported two more Israeli soldiers taken hostage.
First salvos from tank formation and air strike by jets of Israeli forces mark the incursion of Gaza, who wanted to create a buffer zone from rocket fire of militants.
Palestine side, the militants continue to strike Israeli civilians targets with rockets.
Israeli military struck civiliansÂ’ installation such as the power station at the beginning of the incursion resulting in 750,000 Palestine civilians without power supply.
Creating of a buffer zone against rockets fire and saving a kidnapped soldier is the justification given for military aggression resulting in usurping of othersÂ’ sovereignty.
Civilians both side suffer when soldiers and tanks become tools of political agenda.
Small State like Singapore that spend billions in defence, armed to the teeth already, ought to refrain from insensitive purchase such as aggressive and very expensive Apache helicopters which would end up as white elephants or worst cause an arms race in the region which lead to the endless vicious cycle of tensions and arms purchase.
And did the historical baggage of Spore resulted in not issuing statement to urge restraint on the Israelis let alone condemnation? Yet quick to comment on N Korea missile launch when it is very much the arena of the world powers.
Comments, views pls
The current situation escalated in the middle of the potentially hopeful talks between the HAMAS govt and Mamoud Abbas with dialogues agreeing on the national referendum Abbas planned to put forth, implicitly recognizing Israel as a sovereign nation.
Israel's committment to peace was never stronger when they made a forced withdrawal of most parts of the Gaza strip in response to Abbas's call for Israel to prove their committment to the cause. The decision to pull-out of Gaza was probably the most difficult, as many analysts feared giving up Gaza would allow Palestinian zealots greater access to Israel's borders and the added threat of rocket attacks on their cities, a fact that is now fast becoming reality.
The killing of 2 soldiers and snatching of one by an armed faction of Hamas has resulted in outrage by the Knesset, an effront despite Israel's earlier concessions. This truly complicates matters and is now testing Hamas, Abbas and Israel's resolve to seek diplomatic solutions, of which recent events seem to have caused a steep spiral downwards.
Hezbollah's brazen cross-border move is likely to be a joint Syrian-Iranian backed move to add weight to their presence in the area. In this effect, the Hezbollah are effective 'dogs of war' for these two openly hostile countries, political tools manoeuvred to maximise govt interests. How else can one explain Hezbollah's sudden emergence in the armed conflict after a long and uneventful ceasefire without provocation?
Lebanon's meek position was exposed when their Prime Minister tearfully begged for UN support into his now war-torn country, and despite his pledge to send army troops to secure the southern border to Israel, he is unlikely to act on them, a weakness Hezbollah is fully aware of.
This turn of events is likely to stretch into another 'intifada-style' stand-off, with all sides now looking hawkish at the negotiating table and the death toll is going to rise sharply before tapering off.
Of primary concern is the secure release or rescue of the 3 Israeli soldiers which started this chain of events, but all this is likely to end in tragedy. Why Hamas and Hezbollah continue in their efforts to disrupt peace leads to only one single reason - they have no such intention in the first place.
Neither do their financial backers - Iran or Syria. -
Projection of forces could probably mean more public resources would be channeled to Ministry of Defence, which already been allocated S$10B in 2006 budget.Originally posted by Atobe:Your questions are very interesting, and make me wonder if you are a student of defense policy ?
Singapore is fortunate to be in a strategic geographical location that became even more important to the US Defense Strategic Plans when the Singapore Government invited US Defense Forces to use the Singapore Defense facilities.
In a region that is largely hostile to the presence of US Defense Forces - which has seen the withdrawal of base facilities and request for their transfer from most existing host countries - the Singapore offer can only be received as a refreshing welcome, that is valued highly by the US Defense Establishment.
This offer from the Singapore Government was not made out of altruistic reasons, as it also serve our own strategic interest to have the USA in our midst - despite the concern of our immediate neighbors and those not so near.
In order for Singapore not to be seen as a 'lackey' to the US geopolitical interests, the US Government must have been encouraged by the Singapore Government to spread the benefits of its presence around the region.
US Navy ships are sent for repairs in Malaysia; the ban was lifted on military contacts with Indonesia and aid continued to the Indonesian Armed Forces; relationship with Vietnam was restarted with new economic ties established; military aid and specialist training was given to the Philippines - despite having been evicted from the Clarke and Subic bases.
Singapore's Defense Policy is totally independent from that of the US, and there is no treaty of alliance between Singapore and the USA.
Given our small population and limited resources, it is unlikely that Singapore can be an equal defense partner to the USA - on the same basis as UK and the EU countries, or South Korea, and Japan.
Defense co-operation will only be in research and development; equipment commonality; and familiarity in operation planning, strategies and tactics; sharing of intelligence through regular exchanges in dialogues,
The SAF concept of force projection is part of our own overall defense strategy of "defense through aggressive attack in depth beyond our shores"; and has little to do with any scope of being an ally of the USA in any military operations.
The government may want to let the people know more on the likely cost of this endeavour and scope of the force projection. In fact force projection is now the privilege of only a few rich and larger nations such as US, UK etc.
Singapore reliance on US advanced defence technology such as the jet engines and avionics would also means that itÂ’s also a projection of US technology unlike that of other European powers who has their indigenous fighter jets technology. This limits the international influence this policy may want to exert. Such technology is granted at the discretion of US government which hinges on the good relations with Singapore. But this also mean we cannot consider cheaper alternative such as such F-10 figter jet produced in China. -
The F-10 does not have the capability to fit within our force posture. It is at best, another Viper contender.
We are moving forward, not staying still. I am in agreement with the choice to place Singapore under a unspoken American defense strategy as long as we still dictate our own force direction and foreign policy.
We happen to have mutual interests with the Yanks after all, and it's more cost effective to leverage.