Israel Attacks Lebanon
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Originally posted by the Bear:
au contraire, it was INSIDE lebanon. as mobydog has pointed out.
however, the whole thing comes down to this: why the hell did Hezbollah go kidnap 2 soldiers in Israel? -
Israeli has continued with ground offensive 2 days after bombing of Qana village which killed 54 civillians and the earlier deliberate bombing of UN post killing 4.
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Inside Israel or Lebanon, it all depends on which version's map you are looking at, since the "Border Line" keep changing from those major wars.Originally posted by protonhybrid:au contraire, it was INSIDE lebanon. as mobydog has pointed out.
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Originally posted by Dounut:Inside Israel or Lebanon, it all depends on which version's map you are looking at, since the "Border Line" keep changing from those major wars. gd one!
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Israel is only responding how a cornered animal would respond, with all their might.
If you were cornered with no way to run and your opponent only wants your total and absolute annilation, what would be the best course of action? They don't want you to shift out, they don't want you to surrender, they don't even want to throw you in jail. They want you to disappear from the face of the earth. How?
And if later, in Bear's words, they "hide behind their daughter" and you end up with a situation of, either I shoot the girl to kill her and the terrorist, or i get shot at, what should be the best course of action? Should I shoot the girl and live another day? Or should I turn and run and get shot in the back?
Its very easy to sit halfway around the world and condemn Israel and Lebanon, but once we understand where they are coming from, suddenly, it doesn't become as clear cut as before.
Everyone likes to say how stupid Bush junior is for attacking Iraq. We call him monkey (I do anyway), dog, and sucker of various body parts. But think about it one moment. Did he get drunk one day and decided to invade Iraq? Don't forget that USA is not like sg, where one person in power can decide anything. The US President has to have his decisions questioned and attacked, sometimes get insulted etc for any and every decision. Its nothing like a certain Leeder from a certain country who can say anything and no one can debate that decision and stay out of jail for long.
Bush isn't the best leader in US history. He managed to cover that up by taking his peoples' attention away from the problems at home and his poor leadership. He managed to get contracts for american companies in iraq without having to put up with unfriendly dictators and competition from european companies. Although this back fired from the increase in oil prices due to instability.
I'm not saying he is smart, nor am I justifying his action. I'm not claiming I'm right nor am I saying I'm well informed. All I'm saying is that, leaders of countries usually have a reason for their actions, especially if they do not have absolute control over their countries.
Same for Israel, if today I allow you to "arrest" my soldiers because you used your version of the map, tomorrow you can draw a new map without Israel in it and arrest more soldiers and civillians, claiming that you are in the right. Do I have to use your map again?
Today I give you money for kidnapped soldiers, tomorrow what is going to stop you from kidnapping more soldiers for even more money? If i gave in to your demands, will you honour your aggreement? Or will you simply kill my soldiers instead?
Israel is no angel. They have done shocking things to their foes. But the arabs are no angels either. They are just as guilty as the Israelis of atrocities. -
bravo! at last some balanced view on and of both sides...Originally posted by SilverPal:Israel is only responding how a cornered animal would respond, with all their might.
If you were cornered with no way to run and your opponent only wants your total and absolute annilation, what would be the best course of action? They don't want you to shift out, they don't want you to surrender, they don't even want to throw you in jail. They want you to disappear from the face of the earth. How?
And if later, in Bear's words, they "hide behind their daughter" and you end up with a situation of, either I shoot the girl to kill her and the terrorist, or i get shot at, what should be the best course of action? Should I shoot the girl and live another day? Or should I turn and run and get shot in the back?
Its very easy to sit halfway around the world and condemn Israel and Lebanon, but once we understand where they are coming from, suddenly, it doesn't become as clear cut as before.
Everyone likes to say how stupid Bush junior is for attacking Iraq. We call him monkey (I do anyway), dog, and sucker of various body parts. But think about it one moment. Did he get drunk one day and decided to invade Iraq? Don't forget that USA is not like sg, where one person in power can decide anything. The US President has to have his decisions questioned and attacked, sometimes get insulted etc for any and every decision. Its nothing like a certain Leeder from a certain country who can say anything and no one can debate that decision and stay out of jail for long.
Bush isn't the best leader in US history. He managed to cover that up by taking his peoples' attention away from the problems at home and his poor leadership. He managed to get contracts for american companies in iraq without having to put up with unfriendly dictators and competition from european companies. Although this back fired from the increase in oil prices due to instability.
I'm not saying he is smart, nor am I justifying his action. I'm not claiming I'm right nor am I saying I'm well informed. All I'm saying is that, leaders of countries usually have a reason for their actions, especially if they do not have absolute control over their countries.
Same for Israel, if today I allow you to "arrest" my soldiers because you used your version of the map, tomorrow you can draw a new map without Israel in it and arrest more soldiers and civillians, claiming that you are in the right. Do I have to use your map again?
Today I give you money for kidnapped soldiers, tomorrow what is going to stop you from kidnapping more soldiers for even more money? If i gave in to your demands, will you honour your aggreement? Or will you simply kill my soldiers instead?
Israel is no angel. They have done shocking things to their foes. But the arabs are no angels either. They are just as guilty as the Israelis of atrocities. -
no lah,usa have also help a lot of people around the world,of course which country does not protect his people interest,very hard for us to judge,cause we might be wrong if we judge the only things we could rely on its history and records.Originally posted by killstyle:precisely. u know why that fake Bush invaded Iraq?
becos he knows very well there are no WMDs in iraq.
look at north korea the nuke power. fake bush dare to touch kim? no. becos
he knows very well kim will bomb him to kingdom come if he try to be funny
the only way for iran not to become the next iraq is to have nukes.
bo pian these fake 'free world' fcukers US, UK, Japan, only understand the nuke language. aka law of the jungle.
as far as i know usa is not interested in expanding the land or powder through out middle east,there is a lot of saying but still we are just commoners,how we know?japan is along side with the usa cause they have also in a way or another they are rite.
so do you think japan,uk and those nation who is richer have more abilty to have nuke than compare to north korea and iran,what i trying to show you its the intention of the nation,its wrong the people is not living better off,they are even can not consider 3rd world,they are left out connecting with the world,this will bring more hurts to its own nation and his people,the jap learns it the hard way they just doesnt want history to repeat
but when democratic and freedom of speech can be attain,the people in that country will be better,not so much hateral and misunderstanding,peace can be attain,cheers
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What SilverPal has quoted are more rational facts ! !Originally posted by tiggersgd:bravo! at last some balanced view on and of both sides...
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Originally posted by Dounut:
define rational n facts...for me, i think its also more balanced, no?
What [b]SilverPal has quoted are more rational facts ! ! [/b] -
Err... Gentlemen.. Aïta Al-Chaab is well inside Lebanon whichever map you are using.Originally posted by Dounut:Inside Israel or Lebanon, it all depends on which version's map you are looking at, since the "Border Line" keep changing from those major wars. -
You gotta be kidding me.... Look at the British mandate map prior to 1947.. what does it say ? Palestine ??Originally posted by the Bear:more than that.. WAY WAY more than that...
btw, the "Palestinians" don't exist.. as admitted by the PLO themselves no less
Same logic why we call people of Iran - Iranian, Syria - Syrian, Iraq - Iraqi Singapore - Singaporean.. you mean we don't exist ??
frankly, i find it strange that in this day and age, anti-semitism by the neo- Nazis is not tolerated, but open threats to Jews by leaders of countries are
Much worst.. people have been jailed for denying the Holocaust in Austria and Germany.
oh well, it is said that politics is filthy
But America takes the cake... Just look what's happening to Mel Gibson recently ... he is getting hit by the full force of the american media , and who controls the US media ?
BTW, do you know that In USA, it is illegal to boycott Israel, but can boycott Canada, UK and any other country... but not Israel.
Here's the law -
http://www.bis.doc.gov/news/2002/umustcomply11_4_02.htm
Here's a case of McMaster Carr industrial supply company was recently fined $8,000 by this agency, and the company was not even boycotting Israel. Rather, their crime was: McMaster-Carr failed to report its receipt of boycott-related requests within the time period required by the antiboycott provisions
http://www.bis.doc.gov/News/2003/McMaster_Carr.htm
Israel has the US by their balls. -
they need israel as a foothold in the mid east. no israel no us middle-east interest guarantee. and besides, israel is one of the largest buyers of us arms the evangelical christians who make up a large political clout, especially in the bible belt will definately support israel i think if it was singapore was cornered, our scholar ministers and most saf reservists will be thousands of miles away while leaving only a handful of people left behind to find off the aggressors
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The problem in the Middle-east requires a long-term solution...that I agree with the US. Unfortunately, it is also the US and Israel that have no stomach for an effective long-term solution.
Such a solution must encompass the right to return of Palestinian refugees. There are 4 million Palestinian refugees, many of whom holding deeds to their land and keys to their homes, who have been displaced by the multiple Arab-Israeli wars. Unless Israel respects their right to return to their homes, Israel faces an opposition the size of Singapore from which terrorist groups like Hizbollah can always count on for support. Whatever international force you create to separate the two parties will inevitably end up being caught in the cross-fire.
With regard to the current crisis, Israel must understand that often it's the grief, not just the grievance, that feeds the circle of violence. A BBC interview with a Lebanese Christian doctor who is a victim of the bombing 2 days ago well illustrates this. He said, "I am not Hizbollah...I do not support the Hizbollah...but now I do."
Imagine someone who just want a peaceful life to bring up his children like we all do, someone who does not care about the politics or religious conflicts in the area. One day, Israel bombs his house and kills his family. He has no job, no house, no wife and no children...he has nothing to live for. Is it difficult to understand why such a person might want to strap a bomb belt around himself and blow up Israeli children and women, so the other side also experiences his grief? We can condemn such actions all we want and we should do so, but that will not stop the violence.
Until the 4 million displaced Palestinians are allowed to go home in Israel and the occupied West Bank, there will be no shortage of recruits for the likes of Hizbollah and Hamas. Even if Israel destroys one group, another will take its place.
What can Israel do if it will not ever allow Palestinian refugees the right to return (as they have said repeatedly)? This circle of violence will go on unless they intend to do what the Nazis failed to do to them some 60 years ago: exterminate the 4 million Arabs? I shudder at the thought but sometimes history does have the habit of repeating itself. -
Personally, I have a very bad impression of Israel, and I have become much more sympathetic to the Arab resistance groups, of which they should not be called terrorists like what Israel and US like to call them, but resistance fighters/ freedom figthers.
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You have already answer your own question.Originally posted by tiggersgd:define rational n facts...for me, i think its also more balanced, no?
Many people take their own sympathetic towords a certain group as the actual "Fact" of the situation, thus siding one side ! !
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The word Aïta Al-Chaab which you use, already decided that version of map & story you choose to believe ! !Originally posted by MobyDog:Err... Gentlemen.. Aïta Al-Chaab is well inside Lebanon whichever map you are using. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Ya lor.
This circle of violence will go on unless they intend to do what the Nazis failed to do to them some 60 years ago: exterminate the 4 million Arabs? I shudder at the thought but sometimes history does have the habit of repeating itself.
How come the Jews did not do it to the Nazis, of what these Arabs are doing to them today ? ?
Wasn't the situation of Jews much worst 60 years ago, than the "Displace Arabs" are facing today ? ? -
I used to be very pro Israel. I only knew what I heard in CNN and it seemed to me that the arabs are all evil and always trying to kill the jews who only wanted to be left alone.Originally posted by Dounut:You have already answer your own question.
Many people take their own sympathetic towords a certain group as the actual "Fact" of the situation, thus siding one side ! !
After sometime, my perception of the situation did not jive with the actions and reactions of the arabs and israelis and I read more into the current Mid East conflict and felt that, IMO its a standoff between Israel and her enemies.
Each dare not blink as they fear the other side would take the chance to destroy them. Both sides are scared to death of each other and both sides, especially those neutral non combatants, are sick of all the fighting, dying and uncertainty.
Sadly it is very difficult for each of them to see the other's view. -
how factual u can be, much more balanced or truthful when u quote " " in between the facts?Originally posted by Dounut:You have already answer your own question.
Many people take their own sympathetic towords a certain group as the actual "Fact" of the situation, thus siding one side ! ! and facts are facts...no 2 way abt it. while here i am lobbying for a more balanced POV...have u not understood that part? if i'm sympathetic towards one side, it will be that it is often not balanced in nature of the reporting...this is not a fair world to begin with, much less being bias. go figure.
well, if u so choose to think that way, then what more is there to continue with u? in fact, u have also decided ur view on this by ur answer above, no? 
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For the same action it can be called 'kidnaped Israeli soldiers' or 'snatched Hizbollah militant' by the media or rather whose media?Originally posted by #$%^&*:Personally, I have a very bad impression of Israel, and I have become much more sympathetic to the Arab resistance groups, of which they should not be called terrorists like what Israel and US like to call them, but resistance fighters/ freedom figthers. -
This is the longest bloody feud in history between the Jews and their spiritual cousins, the Arabs. Both tribes are descendants of Abraham.
Muslims who are not Arabs are outsiders and should not join in the fight because they have no blood ties.
Peace will come when the Arabs begin to love their children more than they hate the Jews.
Meanwhile, forgiving Hezbollah is God's function. The Israeli's job is to arrange that meeting. -
Are Jews the descendents of the people that is led by Moses during the Exodus and then subsequently to Joshua? During Joshua times, in order to establish the so called Promised Lands he did initiate wars to secure peace and land. Walls of Jericho anyone? No one in the city was spared lest a few!Originally posted by googoomuck:This is the longest bloody feud in history between the Jews and their spiritual cousins, the Arabs. Both tribes are descendants of Abraham.
Muslims who are not Arabs are outsiders and should not join in the fight because they have no blood ties.
Peace will come when the Arabs begin to love their children more than they hate the Jews.
Meanwhile, forgiving Hezbollah is God's function. The Israeli's job is to arrange that meeting.
Ok back to current Israel. They do in fact has a very long history with it's neighbors. That can all be resolved if they just vacate their current lands and do mass migration to US where there are alot more friendlier neighbors there. Why must Israelites hold obstinately to those lands with blood spilled every year? A sense of religious moral victory as satisfaction? -
What are you talking about.... If I tell you that "Lim Chu Kang Road" is in Singapore, would you tell me which map I should be pointing from .. Malaysia ?Originally posted by Dounut:The word Aïta Al-Chaab which you use, already decided that version of map & story you choose to believe ! ! -
Abraham had two women bore him sons.
Hagar(an Egyptian) gave birth to Ishmael - Arabs are Ishmael's descendants.
Followed by Sarah(a jew), who gave birth to Issac.
Ishmael was first born but mother was not Jewish.
So, the first born Jewish son was Isaac.
If one can argue with an Arab that Isaac was rightfully the first son and win the argument convincingly, the Arab will become enraged and kill him. -
I don't take any side. I only think & analyst what I know. I also never mention you sided one side, but only answering your question.Originally posted by tiggersgd:how factual u can be, much more balanced or truthful when u quote " " in between the facts? and facts are facts...no 2 way abt it. while here i am lobbying for a more balanced POV...have u not understood that part? if i'm sympathetic towards one side, it will be that it is often not balanced in nature of the reporting...this is not a fair world to begin with, much less being bias. go figure.
well, if u so choose to think that way, then what more is there to continue with u? in fact, u have also decided ur view on this by ur answer above, no?
What I feel is, if someone has already decided which party to side, it's difficult to carry on with the discussion in a more rational way.