Firms Struggle To Hire Local Workers!!
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In the example you raised, presume you are saying locals take home less because of CPF. Your CPF money goes to pay for your HDB flat, your medical insurance and your retirement. It's still your money...if it is not mandatory, Singaporeans won't save for their own retirement.Originally posted by SilverPal:Its not massive greed that make locals demand higher pay, well, not most of the time anyway.
Imagine a job that pays $2k SGD. A local can only take home $1.6k before taxes while a foreigner takes home $2k before taxes. Bearing in mind foreigners have no family comittment in sg, they can squeeze in to one 3 room flat with 6 other foreigners for the next 2-3 years.
What about locals? Assuming you have no friends, all your family members have died (saving you money on christmas and birthday presents), how long can you squeeze into a 3 room flat with 6 other people? 3 years? 6 years? Until retirement? Will there be a light at the end of the tunnel?
Our only hope to to become a quitter and steal jobs from others who are more expensive than us, such as those who really are in the first world.
Many foreigners are taking on lowly paid jobs and earn far less than 2k a month. How much do you pay your maids?
If we want a higher quality of life than our foreign competitors, we must be more productive than they are. Steal jobs from others who are more expensive? Of course, that's the way to go in our globalised economy. If you can offer your skills at a lower price and yet perform as well as your foreign counterparts, you get the job. If they can do better than you at a lower price, you lose yours. If the government tries to protect your job by not allowing foreign workers in, your boss will just move his business overseas. Then Singapore will lose twice: once because you lose your job and twice because the government loses their taxes from the company. -
more jobs were created in the 2nd quarter, 36500!!!
but unemployment rose to 2.9%. this is because more people, especially those with tertiary education entered the job market. -
I neglected to realise the different uses of the CPF, thanks for informing me.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:In the example you raised, presume you are saying locals take home less because of CPF. Your CPF money goes to pay for your HDB flat, your medical insurance and your retirement. It's still your money...if it is not mandatory, Singaporeans won't save for their own retirement.
Many foreigners are taking on lowly paid jobs and earn far less than 2k a month. How much do you pay your maids?
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I never had a maid before so I wouldn't know how much a maid is paid. Assume its $1k SGD.
A foreigner can bring back to phillipines (According to converter slightly less than $34,022.472 Pesos per month. Assume that in the end they only bring back $10k Pesos per month, at the end of 1 year, they will have $120k Pesos.
I do not claim to know the economy of phillipines but its does seem that they have a greater spending power in phillipines than in sg don't you think?
If I chose to become a maid, I would earn $1k SGD per month. minus CPF I will take home $800 SGD per month. At the end of the year I will have $9.6k SGD (assuming no expenditure) with $2.4k SGD in CPF. Assume I work as a maid for 2 years, I would have $4.8k SGD in CPF. Would I be able to buy a flat or car with that amount of money? What else can I do with that money? Invest? If I was good at investing, would I be a maid?
Now the question: Since the fillipino maid can take home $10k Pesos by the end of the first year, how long would I need to work as a maid to have the same spending power (in sg since I have no money to migrate) as the fillipino (spending in phillipines)?
I did not factor in taxes in since I assume that any tax would affect both local and foreigners alike. -
Your filipino maid is not able to buy a flat or car in Singapore as well. The fact is, if you work as a maid, you are competing at the same level as your maid. You earn the same sort of salary and you can only expect to have to the same quality of life, ie. $10k pesos in the Phillippines. You can withdraw your CPF if you renounce your citizenship and emigrate there....and you will enjoy the same benefits as your maid.Originally posted by SilverPal:If I chose to become a maid, I would earn $1k SGD per month. minus CPF I will take home $800 SGD per month. At the end of the year I will have $9.6k SGD (assuming no expenditure) with $2.4k SGD in CPF. Assume I work as a maid for 2 years, I would have $4.8k SGD in CPF. Would I be able to buy a flat or car with that amount of money? What else can I do with that money? Invest? If I was good at investing, would I be a maid?
Now the question: Since the fillipino maid can take home $10k Pesos by the end of the first year, how long would I need to work as a maid to have the same spending power (in sg since I have no money to migrate) as the fillipino (spending in phillipines)?
The fact is, if we choose to live in a first world country like Singapore and enjoy the quality of life in a first world nation, we must be able to compete at a higher level than your maid. And btw, a car is a luxury and damages the environment. You can get by more easily in Singapore without a car...use public transport. -
Very true. Assuming that I take the CPF factor out of the equation so that I am competing at the same level as my maid. That fact remains that, we do not choose which country to live in, we are citizens of our respective countries, like it or not.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Your filipino maid is not able to buy a flat or car in Singapore as well. The fact is, if you work as a maid, you are competing at the same level as your maid. You earn the same sort of salary and you can only expect to have to the same quality of life, ie. $10k pesos in the Phillippines. You can withdraw your CPF if you renounce your citizenship and emigrate there....and you will enjoy the same benefits as your maid.
The fact is, if we choose to live in a first world country like Singapore and enjoy the quality of life in a first world nation, we must be able to compete at a higher level than your maid. And btw, a car is a luxury and damages the environment. You can get by more easily in Singapore without a car...use public transport.
With full knowledge of her return to phillippines, and her ability to return there to her friends and family, she can take up such low paying jobs in sg. But with the knowledge that its going to cost me a bomb (since I'm earning so low wages) to migrate to a country whose language and culture is foreign to me, and I might have to remain in sg to live the rest of my life, then suddenly we come to realise that my spending power is significantly less that hers.
Its like how the Indians and PRCs here are able to undercut local workers as they know they can convert their savings to their local currency in their own countries and their spending power back home might be more that their employers spending power in sg.
Hence many singaporeans, with knowledge that they MIGHT not be able to migrate, due to whatever reasons, would have to take the highest possible paying job they can get. Any job that does not give them the means to support themselves and maybe 1 or 2 dependents cannot possibly in good sense be considered.
Hence, (most) poorer singaporeans cannot be said to be choosy or picky about their jobs but rather pragmatic. Even when using public transport.
Of course I cannot use myself as an example for this discussion as I represent the typical entry level office worker. -
Originally posted by SilverPal:
Singaporeans can emigrate to Malaysia, Indonesia or even China where the costs are lower and their life savings (after selling that HDB flat) will go pretty far. As reported in Zaobao, graduates from Sichuan University are taking on jobs as nannies in Beijing for S$300 a month. Your dollars will go further there.
[b]Hence many singaporeans, with knowledge that they MIGHT not be able to migrate, due to whatever reasons, would have to take the highest possible paying job they can get. Any job that does not give them the means to support themselves and maybe 1 or 2 dependents cannot possibly in good sense be considered.
Hence, (most) poorer singaporeans cannot be said to be choosy or picky about their jobs but rather pragmatic. Even when using public transport.
b]
I note that the Minister of Health is also considering this option when he suggested building retirement homes in Batam etc. That is a possible and logical option. -
Hence many singaporeans, with knowledge that they MIGHT not be able to migrate, due to whatever reasons, would have to take the highest possible paying job they can get. Any job that does not give them the means to support themselves and maybe 1 or 2 dependents cannot possibly in good sense be considered.
As we should too The point I want to make is that Singaporeans cannot blame the bosses for hiring foreigners if foreign workers can do the same job for less. Bosses also want to earn as much as they can.
We must do what the foreigners cannot at every level in every field. There will be those who cannot compete and fall by the wayside...if these are few in number, their families and charities can help them. If too many Singaporeans cannot be as competitive as foreigners, we will be in deep trouble.
Problem is: many Singaporeans are blissfully unaware of the challenges confronting them. Fatum said that China produces 25 million graduates per year...even if just the top 0.01% of a single year's graduates come to Singapore, we will be in trouble. Singapore graduates must be more able than their Chinese counterparts, go into emerging industries and acquire technology that is not available in China. But that is not going to be enough, as the Chinese will catch up eventually. We have to continually upgrade our skills and stay a step ahead as the government keeps saying....there is good reason for that.
And I do not think that an individual's interests should be the overrriding factor when choosing what to study...marketable skills are more important. -
As we should too The point I want to make is that Singaporeans cannot blame the bosses for hiring foreigners if foreign workers can do the same job for less. Bosses also want to earn as much as they can.
We must do what the foreigners cannot at every level in every field. There will be those who cannot compete and fall by the wayside...if these are few in number, their families and charities can help them. If too many Singaporeans cannot be as competitive as foreigners, we will be in deep trouble.
Problem is: many Singaporeans are blissfully unaware of the challenges confronting them. Fatum said that China produces 25 million graduates per year...even if just the top 0.01% of a single year's graduates come to Singapore, we will be in trouble. Singapore graduates must be more able than their Chinese counterparts, go into emerging industries and acquire technology that is not available in China. But that is not going to be enough, as the Chinese will catch up eventually. We have to continually upgrade our skills and stay a step ahead as the government keeps saying....there is good reason for that.
And I do not think that an individual's interests should be the overrriding factor when choosing what to study...marketable skills are more important.
i fear one day singaporean future leader will think like you. fittest survive. you are assuming that most employer are ethical and will always put priority in employing singaporean. how many cases are true? you tends to compare our salary to china/indian/thailand etc but fail to address the true cause of problems that is high standard of living. and a salary that doesnt match. do singaporean prefer high standard of living or lower cost of living? it depend on what class of income you belong to. i am not fighting for myself nor those upper and middle class singaporean, who mostly can fend for themselves in this capitalism market or i simply call it big fish eat small fish world.
i do hope we can fight for those unfortunate fellow singaporean who are stuck in high cost of living and salary competing with foreign workers(not talent). how lower a expectation standard of living can we still ask these groups of singaporean to go? how are we going to tell these groups of ppl to be realistic about? how much productivity are we still gona squeeze them out? how marketable can we ask them to be?
maybe retraining is a way out for some but not all.
but yet again this isnt a simple issue isnt it. economically, social responsibility of govt/employer,managing expectation, a pro govt union movement.
sometimes i feel our govt does one thing better than the north korean regime. brainwashing. -
You are wrong,the paid is too low in some servicing industry,n yet the working hours increases,F**k the government!!!!Originally posted by Kenashi:singaporeans don't like to work in service industry, they think that it is too lowly for them, they rather starve
eat A&W loh
air n water -
Precisely the points!
IF not for the high salaries of the ministers (just one of the contributing factors) salaries and living costs wouldn't be so absurdly skewed.
And of course, their universal excuse that it is rising oil prices... right....
right now, a lot of people are just waiting for the old tree to fall and plant a new one that will bear fruits with smaller or fewer seeds and more flesh... -
Not that no people want to work for Isetan , of course i won't work for Isetan if Isetan offered me pathetic pay , right ?
Before Isetan make this statement , they must make known to why they are not getting Singaporean to work for them , it's about $$$$ la .
$750 for a cashier's job ? 44 hrs per week , odd hours , reached home 10pm , no overtime , no incentives , orchard food expensive , transport expensive ..... expenses high ? How to work ?
work liao , month end also negative in $$$ , what for ?
Sinagapore work must have take home $800 than can survive . Gross must have $1100 la , to be fair .
take home lesser than $600 , eat what ? -
Problem is, our gov can't see or don't want to see that $800 p/mth is not enough!Originally posted by Poolman:Not that no people want to work for Isetan , of course i won't work for Isetan if Isetan offered me pathetic pay , right ?
Before Isetan make this statement , they must make known to why they are not getting Singaporean to work for them , it's about $$$$ la .
$750 for a cashier's job ? 44 hrs per week , odd hours , reached home 10pm , no overtime , no incentives , orchard food expensive , transport expensive ..... expenses high ? How to work ?
work liao , month end also negative in $$$ , what for ?
Sinagapore work must have take home $800 than can survive . Gross must have $1100 la , to be fair .
take home lesser than $600 , eat what ?
They think we can survive on PEANUTS! -
Guess life for other "ppl" is different frm us the typical worker trying to make ends meets though
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Why has the Sg worker become so unemployable compared to the foreign worker?
Why are employers going for foreign workers?
Why is the Sg worker more expensive to employ than the foreign worker?
What's the Sg gov's responsibility to the Singaporean workers AND foreign workers?
With the way employment works here, the future doesn't look promising for the Sg worker...it sure looks bright for the foreign worker...imho.
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Why has the Sg worker become so unemployable compared to the foreign worker?
Ans: because they are willing to take ridiculously low wages
Why are employers going for foreign workers?
Ans: because they are willing to take ridiculously low wages
Why is the Sg worker more expensive to employ than the foreign worker?
Ans: because we(most of us anyway) actually have to live in Singapore for the long term. and hence are subject to the rising cost of living here.
What's the Sg gov's responsibility to the Singaporean workers AND foreign workers?
Ans: None, it appears. The government feels more responsible to employers, helping to ensure that they can squeeze the workers dry. This is essential to attract foreign companies to set up shop here and increase the government's corporate tax revenue.
With the way employment works here, the future doesn't look promising for the Sg worker...it sure looks bright for the foreign worker...imho.
Ans: Yes, for the foreign workers who are remitting their pay back home where the money goes a long way compared to here. They can go home and retire in comfort after some years of scrimping and saving here.
Possible solution?
Give up citizenship and migrate to those same countries the foreigners are coming from. Then come back to Singapore as foreign talent. Remitt most of your pay back home and build a nice retirement nest -
Compare the skills of the Singaporean worker with his foreign counterpart. A University graduate from Sichuan is willing to to work as a nanny for S$300 a month. Their factory workers are willing to work for a third our our salary and whilst we complain about the poor pay at Isetan, hundreds of Mainland Chinese are willing to come to work for that pay.Originally posted by macjoe:Why has the Sg worker become so unemployable compared to the foreign worker?
Why are employers going for foreign workers?
Why is the Sg worker more expensive to employ than the foreign worker?
What's the Sg gov's responsibility to the Singaporean workers AND foreign workers?
With the way employment works here, the future doesn't look promising for the Sg worker...it sure looks bright for the foreign worker...imho.
Why are employers going for foreign workers? Increase the profit margin, of course. Businesses are not charities...they aim to earn as much as possible within the law.
Singapore's responsibilty is to the majority of Singaporeans. That means to keep jobs in Singapore as much as possible and not lose them to cheaper economies. That means we must remain competitive and not pay our workers far more than what they deserve, in comparison with what their foreign counterparts are getting for that level of skill.
As for costs of living, Singaporeans are themselves driving up the cost of living. Why are more people buying cars if they cannot afford it? Why do Singaporeans have bigger properties than Hong Kongers on average? If Singaporeans cannot afford it, people shouldn't be buying condos and 5-room flats on 30-year mortgages. Why are more Singaporeans going overseas for holidays than ever before? Why do children have so much money to spend?
If the cost of living is so high, why do foreign workers want to work here for less pay and still save enough money to send home? They are prepared and willing to cut the frills and live on basics.
The truth is, Singaporeans expect first world standard of living but our skills do not measure up with workers in the first world on average. So people expect the government to impose protectionist policies but that will only drive businesses away.
There are some forumners who want Singapore to be a socialist welfare state, at a time when even communist China has turned capitalist. Singaporeans must stop burying their heads in the sand. -
Allow me to humbly correct you on this one;Originally posted by av98m:Why has the Sg worker become so unemployable compared to the foreign worker?
What's the Sg gov's responsibility to the Singaporean workers AND foreign workers?
Ans: None, it appears. The government feels more responsible to employers, helping to ensure that they can squeeze the workers dry. This is essential to attract foreign companies to set up shop here and increase the government's corporate tax revenue.
What's the Sg gov's responsibility to the Singaporean workers AND foreign workers?
Ans: Their own pockets. Period.
Look, all we have been told all these friggin decades, were to tighten our belts. So long as they can keep the economy growing by whatever percentage or margin, and so long as they receive revenues, would they care if anyone of us are able to get by?
I feel we have been told long enough to take this and take that. It's high time they start TAKING some heed of general public unhappiness - and REALLY do something CONCRETE about it! -
Dear Sir,Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Compare the skills of the Singaporean worker with his foreign counterpart. A University graduate from Sichuan is willing to to work as a nanny for S$300 a month. Their factory workers are willing to work for a third our our salary and whilst we complain about the poor pay at Isetan, hundreds of Mainland Chinese are willing to come to work for that pay.
Why are employers going for foreign workers? Increase the profit margin, of course. Businesses are not charities...they aim to earn as much as possible within the law.
Singapore's responsibilty is to the majority of Singaporeans. That means to keep jobs in Singapore as much as possible and not lose them to cheaper economies. That means we must remain competitive and not pay our workers far more than what they deserve, in comparison with what their foreign counterparts are getting for that level of skill.
As for costs of living, Singaporeans are themselves driving up the cost of living. Why are more people buying cars if they cannot afford it? Why do Singaporeans have bigger properties than Hong Kongers on average? If Singaporeans cannot afford it, people shouldn't be buying condos and 5-room flats on 30-year mortgages. Why are more Singaporeans going overseas for holidays than ever before? Why do children have so much money to spend?
If the cost of living is so high, why do foreign workers want to work here for less pay and still save enough money to send home? They are prepared and willing to cut the frills and live on basics.
The truth is, Singaporeans expect first world standard of living but our skills do not measure up with workers in the first world on average. So people expect the government to impose protectionist policies but that will only drive businesses away.
There are some forumners who want Singapore to be a socialist welfare state, at a time when even communist China has turned capitalist. Singaporeans must stop burying their heads in the sand.
I do agree with your point that Singapore should remain competitve in that our locals MUST outperform the foreigners for the dollar. But issue at hand currently, is that by accepting what the foreigners are accepting in terms of salary, it doesn't balance up with local living costs. In simpler terms, salaries of locals can't meet local living costs - which by the way are ever-increasing, if you haven't noticed.
Predicaments of locals and that of the FTs, is totally different, as pointed out by many in here. Haven't you read them? -
the govt said recently that there are more than enough jobs. thats why we need the foreign workers.
isnt this amazing???? -
A graduate in Sichuan is not willing to work for S$300. That person is willing to work for RMB$1500. The conversion is the same but the spending power is very different.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Compare the skills of the Singaporean worker with his foreign counterpart. A University graduate from Sichuan is willing to to work as a nanny for S$300 a month. Their factory workers are willing to work for a third our our salary and whilst we complain about the poor pay at Isetan, hundreds of Mainland Chinese are willing to come to work for that pay.
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If the cost of living is so high, why do foreign workers want to work here for less pay and still save enough money to send home? They are prepared and willing to cut the frills and live on basics.
There are some forumners who want Singapore to be a socialist welfare state, at a time when even communist China has turned capitalist. Singaporeans must stop burying their heads in the sand.
Did you not read my post about the spending power? You can work for SGD$300 and earn RMB$1500. So you will ask me, why can't the local grads make ends meet earning SGD$2k = RMB$10k a month? You think?
Foreign workers do not see themselves earning a few measly hundreds a month but a few thousands in their local currency.
I do not blame the govt for the job outlook but rather, I wonder if anything can be dome on the ground to change this situation. -
Exactly what I have been trying to explain to oxford.Originally posted by ShutterBug:Dear Sir,
I do agree with your point that Singapore should remain competitve in that our locals MUST outperform the foreigners for the dollar. But issue at hand currently, is that by accepting what the foreigners are accepting in terms of salary, it doesn't balance up with local living costs. In simpler terms, salaries of locals can't meet local living costs - which by the way are ever-increasing, if you haven't noticed.
Predicaments of locals and that of the FTs, is totally different, as pointed out by many in here. Haven't you read them? -
They have lots of vacancies for security guards, cab driver, road sweepers, etc for you. As for FTs, they do the management position, which apparently, I'm sufficiently brain washed to believe that we do not have any locals capable to do that job.Originally posted by dragg:the govt said recently that there are more than enough jobs. thats why we need the foreign workers.
isnt this amazing???? -
Exactly why Khaw Boon Wan was considering retirement villages in Batam and JB. If we want to live in a first world country like Singapore, we can only expect first world prices.Originally posted by SilverPal:Exactly what I have been trying to explain to oxford.
The cost of living is tied in with our salaries. If bus drivers want higher salaries of 1.5-2.5k a month, you cannot expect bus fares to remain at 25 cents. If we lower costs at hospitals and polyclinics, we will have to cut the salaries of our nurses and doctors. If we want school fees to drop, we have to pay our teachers less.
Of course the purchasing power of S$1 in Sichuan is very different from that in Singapore. But you cannot expect to have a western-trained qualified surgeon to take out your appendix, your children will not have teachers of the same calibre as those in Singapore and you have to walk an hour to the nearest town just to send a telegram.
That's why Khaw Boon Wan said that Singaporeans have to moderate our expectations if we want cheaper healthcare. That follows in other fields as well. Our bus service and MRT are very good and comfortable compared to those in the UK...(try taking the London Underground in summer...jam packed and no aircon but costs 5 times more)...if we want even lower fares, we will have to accept a drop in quality.
The taxi driver Poolman says he can earn 2-2.5k a month with no problems. If we want to cut taxi fares, he may have to take a salary cut as well.
Lower salaries in Singapore will lower the cost of living and will make Singapore less attractive as a destination for foreign workers. But talented Singaporeans who can find jobs in the West where the pay is higher will move out, causing a massive brain drain. That is what's happening in China and India. I have met top Chinese doctors working in the best hospitals and Universities in the US, whilst the hospitals in their hometown in China are stuck in the 1950s. Sure, the returning Sichuan worker from Singapore will be able to afford much more than his neighbour in Sichuan, but he will not have access to these western-trained doctors either.
Lower salaries will lower the cost of living in Singapore but it will also make foreign imported goods and services more expensive and less affordable. Your barber may charge you less but you cannot afford that MP3 player or your laptop now. And by the way, your filippino maid could well decide to work for Hong Kongers instead.. -
Why would firms want to employ a foreigner if there are locals who can do the job just as well? It's because foreigners are willing to accept a lower pay. I agree that foreigners are willing to do that because their families in China or India can live very well on the meagre sum he sends home. But remember that his children in China do not have the kind of education your children have, neither do they have access to the kind of education, healthcare or transport system we are accustomed to.Originally posted by SilverPal:A graduate in Sichuan is not willing to work for S$300. That person is willing to work for RMB$1500. The conversion is the same but the spending power is very different.
Did you not read my post about the spending power? You can work for SGD$300 and earn RMB$1500. So you will ask me, why can't the local grads make ends meet earning SGD$2k = RMB$10k a month? You think?
Foreign workers do not see themselves earning a few measly hundreds a month but a few thousands in their local currency.
I do not blame the govt for the job outlook but rather, I wonder if anything can be dome on the ground to change this situation.
The cost of living in a first world nation like Singapore is obviously much higher than that in third world nations. Unless we are prepared to accept a lower standard of living, we must be ready to pay a higher price as well.
The solution is not to drastically cut the cost of living but to greatly increase our income. That is why we simply cannot afford to compete at the same level as foreign workers...on their terms. Some of you mentioned that FT are getting management jobs rather than menial jobs as road sweepers. Shouldn't we ask why is it that our graduates are not more highly valued as managers compared to foreigners? Pay is only one factor. If our graduates are far more effective managers than the FT, why should firms choose foreigners? If one of ours can bring in more income for the company than two foreigners, which boss would be daft enough to hire a foreigner instead at 20% less pay?
London paid its fund managers 1-million pound bonuses last Christmas, because these fund managers bring in billions for their financial firms. The UK hires thousands of foreign workers to build their liquified natural gas (LNG) facilities, but the engineers were British nationals who have been brought back from the Middle East at high salaries. Why? Because they have specialized knowledge that foreign engineers do not.
The reason local workers lose out to foreign workers is that their skills are not sufficiently covetable to justify the salaries they seek. -
please define lower standard of living?