The Atomic Bombs and the Japanese
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Originally posted by BillyBong:
Disagree with you there. The Japanese population were aware of what happened in the lands they conquered. They KNEW. Newspaper articles were published on how the officers competed to see how many Chinese they could decapitate. Millions of men were sent out to fight, loot, pillage and rape. These men were sons, brothers, husbands, relatives. The Japanese civilians killed would have keenly and greedily exploited the East Asians, nay, enslaved them (i.e. us) if they had won. Japan during that era was a nation geared towards the building of a slave empire for their race. They are not a people duped into their actions by an upper crust as you claimed.
The word '[b]thought' was used i believe.
In any case, torture of prisoners and experimentation will always been kept secret, with the general public completely unaware of the going-ons within the POW camps.
It's the same with the Afghan POWs at Guantanamo base. Had the whistleblowers not discretely slipped video footage and pictures of prisoner abuse to the press, would the general public have believed hearsay?
Japanese on a whole, cannot be blamed for the mistakes of their ancestors. And many of them are apologetic and ashamed of their historical past, but cultural taboo and national pride prevents them from 'doing the right thing'.
The ones to be blamed are the senior political figures who have deliberately whitewashed the significance of Japan's history, and marginalised the atrocities for what they actually are. [/b]
And no, they are not being "blamed" for the mistakes of their grandparents. They are being criticised, and rightly so, for refusing to face up to their past. Your terms "cultural taboo" and "national pride" are just convenient, slimy excuses that could have been used by them. How about being open and honest and coming clean?
Say a robber came to your house, raped your womenfolk, killed most of the men and tortured the children. The robber's children then denied most of the acts, how would you feel? -
How can the atomic bombs and the acts of the Japanese not be related?Originally posted by kheldorin:If this topic is truly about the anniversary of the atomic bomb, then the atrocities of the Japanese has no relevance either. The anniversary is just a poor excuse to bring up this issue again.
The Japanese did not deny what they did was wrong. They have issued countless statements of apology admitting their wrongdoing. And contrary to popular perception, debate in Japan about what happened is not restricted or regulated. Different political parties would take on a different stance. So how can you judge the entire Japanese race when they all have different view points?
So what type of apology is sufficient to satisfy everyone's pride and ego?
The Americans were not squemish about using the bombs on the Japanese precisely because of the well-documented record of the heinous acts of the Japanese (executing prisoners, atrocities towards the Chinese civilians in the Sino-Japanese war).
They did not apologise. To apologise is to take responsibility for their actions and show that they are at fault, and that they are sorry. They "regretted", to use their word, what happened. Well, I "regret" that the prices of our MRT rides would be rising soon; I "regret" too, that some of our male folks are exploiting girls in Batam; I further "regret" the sometimes harsh censorship of films in Singapore. Does "regret" fit what their grandparents did?
What "pride" and "ego" are you talking about? Am I being "proud" and "egoistic" in thinking the Japanese should face up to their past? Are the Jews "proud" and "egoistic" in capturing and putting on trial former concentration camp commandants?
And regarding holding the whole Japanese race responsible for not "regretting" enough, well, that is how a nation is judged, my friend. If not enough of them are willing to get things right, the whole group gets blamed by history. The Japanese are doing very poorly compared to the Germans, both during and after the war. Many Germans risk their lives and their families' lives to oppose the Nazis, many actually killed in the process. Japanese officers did attempt to mount a coup, to prolong the war, not to stop it.
Anyway, i think we can only pray that the atomic bombs would never be used again. And for that to happen, a nation that is planning to exploit its neighbours like what the Japanese attempted must never rise again. -
At some point, instead of claiming others are simply giving 'slimy excuses' for the japs, being gracious to a nation who is recognized as being responsible for countless atrocities is better than being completely prejudiced against them.Originally posted by sourketchup:Disagree with you there. The Japanese population were aware of what happened in the lands they conquered. They KNEW. Newspaper articles were published on how the officers competed to see how many Chinese they could decapitate. Millions of men were sent out to fight, loot, pillage and rape. These men were sons, brothers, husbands, relatives. The Japanese civilians killed would have keenly and greedily exploited the East Asians, nay, enslaved them (i.e. us) if they had won. Japan during that era was a nation geared towards the building of a slave empire for their race. They are not a people duped into their actions by an upper crust as you claimed.
And no, they are not being "blamed" for the mistakes of their grandparents. They are being criticised, and rightly so, for refusing to face up to their past. Your terms "cultural taboo" and "national pride" are just convenient, slimy excuses that could have been used by them. How about being open and honest and coming clean?
Say a robber came to your house, raped your womenfolk, killed most of the men and tortured the children. The robber's children then denied most of the acts, how would you feel?
How can we blame civilians for what their soldiers did? It's like blaming the israeli civilians for Zahal's recent strike that killed 56 lebanese, or blaming the general population of Chechnya for Shamil Basayev's and his rebel acts of kidnapping and violence.
Even if the plight of innocents was distinctly printed in the papers (i hardly think the imperial army would print anything other than propaganda victories to instill 'pride' in their people), what would you expect the civilians to do? Declare open revolt against the emperor and his subjects?
And your comparison is not valid because you claim 'children then denied most of the acts'. I have worked with numerous Japanese clients and customers and they all admit to some form of shame over what their ancestors did in WWII, but such discussion is taboo in Japan: No one speaks about it in the mainland.
You should speak to Japanese and know the people and their culture before you hurl sweeping remarks like that. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
So it is "taboo" to discuss this in Japan proper. What does that tell you about Japan?
At some point, instead of claiming others are simply giving 'slimy excuses' for the japs, being gracious to a nation who is recognized as being responsible for countless atrocities is better than being completely prejudiced against them.
How can we blame civilians for what their soldiers did? It's like blaming the israeli civilians for Zahal's recent strike that killed 56 lebanese, or blaming the general population of Chechnya for Shamil Basayev's and his rebel acts of kidnapping and violence.
Even if the plight of innocents was distinctly printed in the papers (i hardly think the imperial army would print anything other than propaganda victories to instill 'pride' in their people), what would you expect the civilians to do? Declare open revolt againts the emperor and his subjects?
And your comparison is not valid because you claim 'children then denied most of the acts'. I have worked with numerous Japanese clients and customers and they all admit to some form of shame over what their ancestors did in WWII, but such discussion is [b]taboo in Japan: No one speaks about it in the mainland.
You should speak to Japanese and know the people and their culture before you hurl sweeping remarks like that. [/b]
And, er, the Mid-east conflict is a different kettle of fish compared to what happened in the 30s and early 40s in east Asia. What is happening in the Middle East is much more complex. To put it simply, Israel as a nation is not planning on building a slave empire of Arabs.
I am sorry, but the Japanese at that time do know what they are trying to build. I think we are willing to forgive, but to forgive, the perpetrator has to acknowledge his misdeeds. I feel sorry that horror of nuclear power has been used on civilians. And I have no doubt that the Japanese who are aware of the true and full extent of the atrocities that happened (300 000 killed and raped in once single city) are truly sorry. But the nation has to stand up and apologise, not pretend that it never happened.
Those friends of yours should have the conviction and guts to stand up and make things right. As a German officer who tried to kill Hitler puts it:"the whole world should know that we had the conviction to make the attempt, never mind the success or failure of the attempt". This officer committed suicide when the bomb attempt failed to prevent the secret police from finding out the names of his co-conspirators.
Maybe you should try telling the comfort women that the Japanese prime ministers had already expressed their regret. I wonder what would their sentiments be. -
SourKetchup,
The argument should be about the use of atomic bomb and yet, all that is written is about the 'denial' of the Japanese atrocities and how the Japanese should apologise. You might as well ignore the atomic bomb completely and just state your agenda outright instead of hiding behind false pretences.
Please read the statements of apologies again. They did more than just express their 'regret'.
You're not satisfied with how they apologised. You're not satisfied with how they took responsibility for their actions. The Japanese war criminals have been put to trial similar to their Nazi counterpart. Yet, you are still not satisfied. How does one decide how the Japanese should take responsibility for their actions? The only fair way is through the legal process. And the Japanese has undergone through that. Yet, that is not enough. You want justice to be done according to how you see fit, not according to the judicial process.
So, yes, it is a matter of 'pride' and 'ego'.
You forget that we are judging the Japanese today, not the Japanese then. And the Japanese now is not the atrocity-commiting people they are in the past. These issues you have against the Japanese is a far cry from a scenario in which they will "rise up to exploit their neighbours". -
kheldorin, I think you're the one who's misinterpreted the context here.
We're talking about whether people today should be sorry that the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and therefore it's not unfair to juxtapose our current attitude with that of the current Japanese attitude. They're not too sorry, and there's no reason we should be either.
On top of that, the actions taken to keep the Japanese on a tight leash since the end of WW2 have been externally imposed. After all, did the Japanese themselves try their military for war crimes, or were those trials carried out by the Allies? Make no mistake that whatever changes have taken place have not at all been instigated by the Japanese themselves, so there's no atonement there.
Have a think about it. They didn't self-correct and instead were made to behave by the countries that they lost the war to. On top of that, they don't acknowledge the horror of their actions to any degree approaching the current German revulsion against what the Nazis did. Given half a chance, do you really think it's impossible for them to become warlike again? If you do, it's right up there with Chamberlain's "peace in our time" dream, and we all know where that went.
Billybong, your argument that the Japanese people wouldn't do anything just doesn't hold water. Over the past few decades they've thrown out a number of prime ministers on account of shady deals that said ministers have been involved in. Put that next to the attitude they have towards the war, and the picture emerges that while they won't stand for corruption, murder and torture's just fine by them. -
There comes a time where we must learn to forgive past actions and not blindly attack the current generation, who have absolutely no direct responsibility to the crazed fanatics of Imperial Japan.Originally posted by sourketchup:So it is "taboo" to discuss this in Japan proper. What does that tell you about Japan?
And, er, the Mid-east conflict is a different kettle of fish compared to what happened in the 30s and early 40s in east Asia. What is happening in the Middle East is much more complex. To put it simply, Israel as a nation is not planning on building a slave empire of Arabs.
I am sorry, but the Japanese at that time do know what they are trying to build. I think we are willing to forgive, but to forgive, the perpetrator has to acknowledge his misdeeds. I feel sorry that horror of nuclear power has been used on civilians. And I have no doubt that the Japanese who are aware of the true and full extent of the atrocities that happened (300 000 killed and raped in once single city) are truly sorry. But the nation has to stand up and apologise, not pretend that it never happened.
Those friends of yours should have the conviction and guts to stand up and make things right. As a German officer who tried to kill Hitler puts it:"the whole world should know that we had the conviction to make the attempt, never mind the success or failure of the attempt". This officer committed suicide when the bomb attempt failed to prevent the secret police from finding out the names of his co-conspirators.
Maybe you should try telling the comfort women that the Japanese prime ministers had already expressed their regret. I wonder what would their sentiments be.
Again, i must emphasize that we must learn to forgive, not FORGET. History and those who created it can never be changed and while we acknowledge that the Japanese leaders and soldiers were a murderous lot, we cannot simply lay the burden of blame on the future generations of Japanese.
Otherwise, where will it end? How can we move forward if we cannot forgive the past? You stated that the middle east conflict was a different ball game, but how is it different? Endless hatred, inability to forgive and fanatical zealots of every denomination created under the guise of religion intent on the other's destruction. Tit-for-tat spats, historical claims to land, ransom kidnappings and targeted assassinations.
The middle east is simply a projection of rash actions between mortal enemies, exactly what would happen if China, Japan and Korea did not exercise restraint. When the Japanese foolishly published a textbook which glossed over the wartime atrocities, the Chinese rightly went on a rampage against Japanese-based companies, while the local police did little to stop them. Had both countries not been separated by a sea, isn't it possible to have another la-middle east conflict style hotzone in asia?
As for having the courage of one's convictions to oppose the govt and 'stand up' as you say, how many of us here dare to stand up to our own govt over unjustified and repeated public transport price hikes, widening wages and underhanded election tactics, apart from writing forum articles to express our displeasure?
And you expect the Japanese people, a hugely conservative people, to aggressively overrule their govt's refusal to admit to their past misdeeds? Claus von Stauffenberg will be forever martyred for his failed assassination attempt on Hitler, but he died a true patriot, trying to save his country from dictatorial oppression.
How many right-minded civilians will willingly lay down their lives for something much less?
Their present govt is merely living in denial; to oppose an ideal is not something many people will risk their lives for. -
Their people will do exactly what any nation would do and no more. If their leaders were discovered to be corrupt, they would certainly be impeached by public opinion if anything.Originally posted by Gedanken:Billybong, your argument that the Japanese people wouldn't do anything just doesn't hold water. Over the past few decades they've thrown out a number of prime ministers on account of shady deals that said ministers have been involved in. Put that next to the attitude they have towards the war, and the picture emerges that while they won't stand for corruption, murder and torture's just fine by them.
How would forcing their govt to admit to misdeeds of the past benefit them? Not only will those affected countries demand monetary compensation and probably bankrupt the Japanese treasury, their economy would likely go into recession, perhaps creating even worst economic problems than the current difference of opinion.
Yes, this whole argument is based solely on a differing opinion: ours and the Japs. I don't accept what the Japanese leaders have done, but that doesn't give me a license to go lambasting their common folks for failing to take action into their own hands. It's like what Chee Soon Juan is doing right now. There is obviously some issues that the govt should answer for, but there are proper channels to raise them. One does not make a point by championing the path of civil disobedience, in direct contravention of the law. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
WOOP! There it is!
How would forcing their govt to admit to misdeeds of the past benefit them? Not only will those affected countries demand monetary compensation and probably bankrupt the Japanese treasury, their economy would likely go into recession, perhaps creating even worst economic problems than the current difference of opinion.
It started with greed, and it's carrying on with greed. They couldn't give a good goddam about what they did because as far as they were concerned, they were out to rob other countries, and as long as the almighty yen was served, that made it all right - patriotic even. -
Hmm, a couple of guys called Mohandas, Martin and Malcolm might disagree with you there. They achieved both political and social changed by those exact means.Originally posted by BillyBong:There is obviously some issues that the govt should answer for, but there are proper channels to raise them. One does not make a point by championing the path of civil disobedience, in direct contravention of the law. -
It was exactly the atrocities of the Japanese during WW2 that justified the use of 2 atomic bombs. What no relevance?Originally posted by kheldorin:If this topic is truly about the anniversary of the atomic bomb, then the atrocities of the Japanese has no relevance either. The anniversary is just a poor excuse to bring up this issue again.
The Japanese did not deny what they did was wrong. They have issued countless statements of apology admitting their wrongdoing. And contrary to popular perception, debate in Japan about what happened is not restricted or regulated. Different political parties would take on a different stance. So how can you judge the entire Japanese race when they all have different view points?
So what type of apology is sufficient to satisfy everyone's pride and ego?
Before some of you continue to avoid the main issue with misplaced kindness on the japanese people as a race, pls be reminded that it was the constant visits of the Yasukuni shrine by the head of the japanese government that is showing the world how remorse they are for what they did during WW2. If their head of state agrees not to visit the shrine, or move away the tablets of the class A war criminals from the shrine, nothing would have happened.
How much apologies needed? learn from the German. there is no need to talk about mercy and kindness. the world is not blind, atonement is not what money can buy. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
First, I fully agree with you that we should forgive and move on. We cannot forget, neither can history. We should try to forgive. But it is not made easier if the leaders that they elected pay their respects to their war dead, who include soldiers who committed unspeakable crimes, and the wartime leaders. It has been suggested that a way can be done to get around this by removing the shrines of the war criminals(how strange, can you imagine a shrine to Hitler or Himmler? Or say, a national visit to a shrine to a mass murderer.....you get my drift) to another location, but it was turned down. Sigh.....
There comes a time where we must learn to forgive past actions and not blindly attack the current generation, who have absolutely no direct responsibility to the crazed fanatics of Imperial Japan.
Again, i must emphasize that we must learn to forgive, not FORGET. History and those who created it can never be changed and while we acknowledge that the Japanese leaders and soldiers were a murderous lot, we cannot simply lay the burden of blame on the future generations of Japanese.
Otherwise, where will it end? How can we move forward if we cannot forgive the past? You stated that the middle east conflict was a different ball game, but how is it different? Endless hatred, inability to forgive and fanatical zealots of every denomination created under the guise of religion intent on the other's destruction. Tit-for-tat spats, historical claims to land, ransom kidnappings and targeted assassinations.
The middle east is simply a projection of rash actions between mortal enemies, exactly what would happen if China, Japan and Korea did not exercise restraint. When the Japanese foolishly published a textbook which glossed over the wartime atrocities, the Chinese rightly went on a rampage against Japanese-based companies, while the local police did little to stop them. Had both countries not been separated by a sea, isn't it possible to have another la-middle east conflict style hotzone in asia?
As for having the courage of one's convictions to oppose the govt and 'stand up' as you say, how many of us here dare to stand up to our own govt over unjustified and repeated public transport price hikes, widening wages and underhanded election tactics, apart from writing forum articles to express our displeasure?
And you expect the Japanese people, a hugely conservative people, to aggressively overrule their govt's refusal to admit to their past misdeeds? Claus von Stauffenberg will be forever martyred for his failed assassination attempt on Hitler, but he died a true patriot, trying to save his country from [b]dictatorial oppression.
How many right-minded civilians will willingly lay down their lives for something much less?
Their present govt is merely living in denial; to oppose an ideal is not something many people will risk their lives for. [/b]
I absolutely do not advocate violence towards the present generation of Japanese. Anyway, the anger, which burns most, and appropriately in Korea and China, did not boil over into overt acts of violence i.e. kidnappings or assassinations, as you put it.
As to comparing our government's actions on the rise in living costs and various steps taken during elections to a government's denial of heinous crimes AND continued worship of war criminals, well, you get the idea.....
Of course i cannot speak for all East Asians baffled and outraged by their odd behaviour, but I think a sincere and heartfelt acceptance of responsibility, an apology and a national soul-searching would be a nice start, wouldn't it?
For their citizens to speak up hardly compares to what the brave group of Germans did, who dared to oppose Hitler in Nazi Germany.So again, the comparison is not valid. To turn it around, if Germans can risk their lives for a better country, can't the Japanese spend some effort in facing up to the truth? As I brought up earlier, the only coup (well, attempted) was mounted to prolong the war, not to stop it. The Japanese should face up to their past and attempt to expunge the stain in their culture that drove them down the path to war.
As our Minister Mentor related in an anecdote, Germans would put into their resumes their ranks and the military campaigns they took part in WWII, because they have apologised, they have come clean and they have made a new start. The Japanese, in contrast, has a blank in that part of their lives. How tragic, for them and for us.
The invasion of China was an "incident", the figures from the Rape of Nanking was inflated, and so on and so on, sigh... -
How would trying to help the nation face the past equate to the path of civil disobedience and in direct contravention of the law?Originally posted by BillyBong:Yes, this whole argument is based solely on a differing opinion: ours and the Japs. I don't accept what the Japanese leaders have done, but that doesn't give me a license to go lambasting their common folks for failing to take action into their own hands. It's like what Chee Soon Juan is doing right now. There is obviously some issues that the govt should answer for, but there are proper channels to raise them. One does not make a point by championing the path of civil disobedience, in direct contravention of the law. -
They took responsibility for their actions by honouring war criminals? Right.....Originally posted by kheldorin:SourKetchup,
The argument should be about the use of atomic bomb and yet, all that is written is about the 'denial' of the Japanese atrocities and how the Japanese should apologise. You might as well ignore the atomic bomb completely and just state your agenda outright instead of hiding behind false pretences.
Please read the statements of apologies again. They did more than just express their 'regret'.
You're not satisfied with how they apologised. You're not satisfied with how they took responsibility for their actions. The Japanese war criminals have been put to trial similar to their Nazi counterpart. Yet, you are still not satisfied. How does one decide how the Japanese should take responsibility for their actions? The only fair way is through the legal process. And the Japanese has undergone through that. Yet, that is not enough. You want justice to be done according to how you see fit, not according to the judicial process.
So, yes, it is a matter of 'pride' and 'ego'.
You forget that we are judging the Japanese today, not the Japanese then. And the Japanese now is not the atrocity-commiting people they are in the past. These issues you have against the Japanese is a far cry from a scenario in which they will "rise up to exploit their neighbours".
I judge the Japanese then as a murderous, brutal and sadistic race. I despise the Japanese now because, they as a race, refuse to face up to their past.
I am not asking for the nation to flagellate themselves for goodness' sake! Just a heartfelt, sincere apology, instead of twisting and turning around, using ambiguous words and generally trying to dodge the issue. Can you imagine their emperor or their prime minister ever kneeling down at our war memorial besides Raffles City, like how the German chancellor knelt down spontaneously in front of a memorial in Poland? Me neither. That really shows the gulf between how far the Germans have come. Germany is now a fully integrated, respected member of the modern world. Compare this to the feelings of Japan's immediate neighbours towards her.
I'm sorry if you think I have an agenda. I have none. War is suffering. The Japanese inflicted horrible crimes on other people, they got two atomic bombs at the end of the war that they started. There are memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the victims, and rightly so. Can you name me a memorial to the people they slaughtered, tortured, raped and performed experiments on? -
Japan is softening its opposition to the use of military force.Originally posted by sourketchup:They took responsibility for their actions by honouring war criminals? Right.....
I judge the Japanese then as a murderous, brutal and sadistic race. I despise the Japanese now because, they as a race, refuse to face up to their past.
I am not asking for the nation to flagellate themselves for goodness' sake! Just a heartfelt, sincere apology, instead of twisting and turning around, using ambiguous words and generally trying to dodge the issue. Can you imagine their emperor or their prime minister ever kneeling down at our war memorial besides Raffles City, like how the German chancellor knelt down spontaneously in front of a memorial in Poland? Me neither. That really shows the gulf between how far the Germans have come. Germany is now a fully integrated, respected member of the modern world. Compare this to the feelings of Japan's immediate neighbours towards her.
I'm sorry if you think I have an agenda. I have none. War is suffering. The Japanese inflicted horrible crimes on other people, they got two atomic bombs at the end of the war that they started. There are memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the victims, and rightly so. Can you name me a memorial to the people they slaughtered, tortured, raped and performed experiments on?
Sixty-one years ago this Sunday, the United States dropped an atom bomb on Hiroshima. Three days later, on Aug. 9, the United States dropped another one on Nagasaki. Ever since, the Japanese have been committed to nuclear abolition and a pacifist constitution.
But in its desire to become a "normal" country, Japan is rapidly changing its constitution, its principles and its military capabilities.
Some Japanese have even broached the taboo subject of Japan acquiring its own nuclear arsenal.
In 1999, going on the offensive for the first time since World War II, Japan's Self Defense Forces fired on vessels suspected of being spy ships.
And new dramatic offensive capabilities are on the horizon. Japan is acquiring an in-flight refueling capability so that its air force can conduct long-range bombing missions.
In December 2004, the Diet -- Japan's parliament -- passed new defense guidelines that modified a longstanding ban on arms exports so that the government could fully ‘cooperate’ with the United States on missile defense.
Leading Japanese government spokesman Shinzo Abe raised the possibility of launching a pre-emptive strike against Korea's missile capacity.
Both Abe and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi support revising Article 9 of the constitution, which bars the military forces from participating in war.
Even if constrained by its constitution, Japan's military capacity has been active for a long time. Japan spends much more on defense than any other country with the exception of the United States and Russia. It has a quarter of a million people in its armed forces. It has an overall level of technology surpassed only by that of the United States.
Perhaps the most troubling part of Japan's military renaissance is the potential for Japan to become a member of the nuclear club. Tokyo has plenty of nuclear material and the technology to weaponize it. Japan reportedly could produce an arsenal of nuclear weapons in as little as six months.
Japan may officially go nuclear, driving a stake through the heart of the nonproliferation regime.
The rising sun appears to be rising again. And that's not good news for world peace. -
Those suffered most from the barbarity were women. They were not only raped by the Japanese, they were often brutally killed by the Japanese after the rape. "Sometimes (Japanese) cut off their breassts to reveal their white ribs; sometimes Japanese pierce through their lower body with bayonets, let them cry in pain! Sometimes they sticks wooden sticks, reed pipe or carrots into their lower body and stir, until they are dead, Japanese soldiers clap their hands and loudly laugh alongside" (Ref. The Record of the Brutal Acts of the Japanese Invaders, Political Department, KMT Military Commission, Published July 1938 ).
A Chinese who were taken by the Japanese to serve as a cook told the following story after he escaped:
"On December 16th, I went to the streets, smoke and fire flames had not yet been extinguished. The number of the dead bodies of my countrymen was terrifyingly large, especially there were many corpses of women... Eight of ten of them had their abdomens being cut open, intestines squeezed out. There were several mothers laid died together with their fetuses covered by blood... the breassts of these female bodies were either cut off or bayoneted into a mixture of flesh and blood ..."
(Ref. "Blood debt--- Eye witness of the brutal acts of the enemy in the Capital", DaGong paper, Feb. 7th, 1938 )
Another Chinese who buried bodies in the suburbs told the following:
"The bodies in the villages, piled up in tens or hundreds, laid in ditches, ponds, fields or among haystacks. The horror of the scenes is hard to describe. Especially women..., their faces were dark, teeth fell, cheeks broken, blood in their mouth, their breassts had been cut off, chest and abdomen had been pierced through, intestines dragged on the ground, lower abdomens had been kicked at, their bodies had been bayoneted randomly."
(Ref. "Photographic history of the atrocities of the Japanese army", DaHua Publishing House, 1946 edition. )
During the period of the NanJing massacre, inside and outside the city, many female bodies laid like this: in a house close to the city wall at the XinZhong gate, laid the body of woman in her sixties, her lower body bloated; on north YangPi street, a girl laid dead, with her abdomen being cut open and intestines dragged out, two eyes wide open, blood in the mouth. In GuYiDian street, a girl of age twelve laid dead, her under-ware was torn, her eyes closed and mouth open. These facts tell us: these women not only died under the butcher' knifes of the Japanese, they had been humiliated before they died. -
The crime of rape that the Japanese committed were extremely savage, just like their brutal murders. The Japanese officers never restrained these brutal acts, they even encourage them, to satisfy their soldiers animal desire. As a consequence, Japanese invaders raped wherever they went. In ShangHai, SuZhu, WuXi, HangZhou... Japanese invaders did the same. The fate of the women in NanJing were particularly miserable.
After the fall of NanJing, Japanese invaders searched everywhere in NanJing in groups, whenever they found women, they gang raped them. "The Japanese brutal acts witnessed by foreigners" by Tian BoLie recorded the reports of the atrocities in NanJing, most of them were rape. Just take a few, and one can see the crimes of the Japanese army:
"December 14th, noon, Japanese soldiers broke into a house in JianYin street, they kidnaped four girls, raped them for two hours.
December 14th, night, Japanese soldiers broke into the homes of Chinese residents, humiliated women, or took them away...
In the night of December 15th, a large group of Japanese soldiers broke into the dorm of Jingling University, raped over thirty women, several women were gang raped by more than six Japanese.
In the night of December 15th, many Japanese soldiers broke into the resident homes in ShanTiao street, humiliated many women.
December 16th, Japanese soldiers kidnaped seven girls from Infantry University, aged from sixteen to twenty-one. Five of them were later released. According to the report of 18th, they were raped over six times a day.
In the dusk of December 18th, about four hundred and fifty women fled to our office, requesting protection. Many of them were raped by Japanese...
(See. "The Japanese brutal acts witnessed by foreigners", p189--199, quoting the report from NanJing International Committee. )
Here, we only listed a few cases in the first couple of days after the fall of NanJing. In fact, "Rape...continued in large scale during six weeks after the fall of NanJing" (See. "Judgment of International Military Tribunal for the Far East " p458 ). These crimes were not only the acts of the Japanese soldiers, but also the acts of the Japanese low and high ranking officers... The principal criminal of the NanJing massacre himself, raped Din Lan and other two women near ZhongHua gate, raped Liu YuQing and other three women at SaiHongQiao, raped over ten women at other places.
(See. "Suit against the principal criminal of NanJing massacre", HePing Daily, December 31th, 1946).
Japanese invaders not only raped to satisfy their animal desire... These animals often gang rape women and then kill them and mutilate their bodies. Many women were gang raped by several, tens of Japanese, the results were usually the death of the victims. The bodies of this kind of victims were everywhere. ...
....
During the Massacre, among the rape victims, there were wives of professors, nuns, workers, teachers, students, etc,etc. Even more shocking is the following report:
"At the end of February, a refugee family of fourteen people were all murdered by Japanese. The youngest daughter was only fourteen, she died on two square tables, upper body dressed, lower body totally stripped of clothing, blood was all over the tables, her lower body was bayoneted twice. An elder daughter died in the bed, in the same way as the younger one. The mother died at the table, with a one year old baby in her arms. The baby was also cut by knife, intestines flew out of the body, too horrible to look at. Members of the International Committee went to investigate, and took photos, and sent the photos to members of US citizenship and the Jap embassy..."
" Young girls were usually not mature,..., the Japanese then tear open their lower body and gang rape them."
(Ref. "The Atrocities of Japanese Invaders", Du ChengXiang, Time Publisher, p55, 1939 edition )
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Even pregnant women were not spared. "At 7:30 PM of December 19th, two Japanese soldiers gang raped a seventeen year old woman who has been pregnant for 9 months, led to the abortion of the fetus, the woman became insane. (Ref. "Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East" p 451) Outside HongWu gate, Japanese soldiers raped a pregnant woman in a farmer home, and then cut open the abdomen of the woman and took out the fetus. In another case, Japanese soldiers wanted to rape a pregnant woman, her mother-in- law struggled to stop them, the Japanese were brutal than anything, they kicked the old lady, and cut the pregnant woman with knife, a fetus of several month flew out of the body, in a moment two lives ended like this.
(Ref. XinHua Daily, Feb 24th, 1951)
Many women were killed after being raped. One Japanese officer advised his subordinates, "To avoid too many troubles,...kill them after that" (Ref. "A Photographic history of the atrocities of the Japanese army" ) Many female victims could never tell their stories. But there was one woman escaped from such death. She originally lived at No 6, JianYin Street. She and several women were taken away by the Japanese, they washed clothes during the day, and were gang raped during the night. The elder ones were raped ten to twenty times a night, the younger and prettier ones, even more. On January 1st, two Japanese took her to an abandoned school, bayoneted her ten times, four times on the back of her neck, one wound in her arm, one on her face, four on her back, the Japanese thought she was dead and left. She was later found by passing-bys and sent to hospital, and finally survived. Some rape victims, though not killed, contracted sexual transmitted diseases, suffered all their lives. -
Japanese's killings were cruel and savage. their ways of killing are beyond human imagination. They took killing people as a game. For instance, Japanese invaders tied up more than one thousand refugees from several places in a square, and made them stand in rows. Some of them wore long robes, some wore suits, some were women, some were children, all bare-feeted. Japanese first sprayed gasoline on their body, and then shot them with machine guns, a big fire set off whenever a person was shot. Dying refugees being shot and burnt, their body shivered in pain, it was a field of flickering flames. Japanese invaders laughed wildly, took great pleasure in it.
(see: NanJing historical documents archive, Interview with Liu RouYuan who escaped to HuNan from NanJing, "Massacres in the Occupied areas", Vol. 5 )
Some Japanese soldiers took scores of refugees to a pond, forced them to take off their clothes and broke the ice to "catch fish", they froze to death immediately. Some resisted and were shot right at the spot, and then thrown into the pond. Japanese soldiers hang a young man for no reason at all with wire, and put dry wood below them, bake him slowly. After half of his body burned black, the Japanese soldiers left, shouting wild. One day, Japanese soldiers set a store on TaiPing avenue on fire and then forced the clerks to fight the fire. When people were fighting th fire, Japanese tied some the clerks and threw them into the fire and burnt them alive. On another day, some Japanese soldiers tied the hands and feet of some refugees and threw them into a shallow pond, then the Japanese threw grenades, blood and flesh flew all over, the Japanese laughed wild. In an other occasion, Japanese forced several hundred POWs to climb to the roof of the Department of Justice building, some knew they would definitely die, jumped off and died. Others climbed to the roof, Japanese then set fire from below, the POWs could not get down and cried painfully in the fire.
In another occasion, several Japanese soldiers broke into a store and captured a young man, they forced him to take off his clothes. Then they poured nitric acid down from the top of his head, his body eroded right away. The young man shouted curses in anger in order to die fast. Japanese soldiers then followed him, shouting and making fun of him, until he died. Some Japanese gathered several hundred POWs together, scooped out their eye balls, cut off their ears and noses and then burned them alive. Even more savage, a group of Japanese soldiers gang raped a middle-aged lady, later they learned that the lady was pregnant, so they cut open the lady and took out the fetus. They took the fetus as a toy and played in the streets, met with a Japanese officer, they wavered the fetus on their bayonets to the officer, the officer returned a smile. The brutal killing game like this, who knows how many happened. probably thousands. we only listed a few instances. -
When someone mentions the word holocaust, most often people will relate that word with the Germans and Jews during World War II. When Japan is mentioned, the first things that come to mind are the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Nanjing Massacre is known as the forgotten holocaust and very oddly, it truly has been forgotten. In this forgotten holocaust, three hundred thousand people were brutally murdered and 20,000 women were raped in the city of Nanjing, during the years of 1937-1938 (Yao).
The Chinese Nationalist Government moved the capital of China from Peking to Nanjing in 1928. Nanking's population in the mid 1930s was well over one million, mainly because many refugees were fleeing from the Japanese army that had invaded China in 1931. Japan had entered China and other parts of Asia before World War II began, and didn't stop until the U. S. dropped the atomic bombs on Japanese soil in early 1945. It is said that the Japanese military machine was motivated by the aggression and uncontrollable desire for expansion and imperialism. On December 9, 1937, Chinese troops surrendered in the city of Nanjing, followed by a massive Japanese attack on the city (Yao).
For the next six weeks, this capital was filled with brutal, unhuman, and terribly violent acts now known as the Nanjing Massacre. The Japanese committed venomous acts against innocent civilians, Chinese soldiers, refugees, and many others. The crimes ranged from mass execution to burning, raping, and looting. On December 13, many of the refugees tried to flee for their lives by crossing the Yangtze River. When they arrived at the river there was no type of transportation for them to cross. The Japanese arrived and when many of them tried to swim the river, the Japanese started to fire at the people in the river and along the banks of the shore. When it was all over, one Japanese solider reported that the river was covered with women, men, and children of all ages, totaling more than 50,000 bodies. Within two days, the streets of Nanjing were called the "streets of blood," as dead human corpses began to cover the streets. Because the streets were piled with dead bodies, the Japanese had people dig huge ditches in the earth and dump hundreds, sometimes even thousands of bodies into these grave pits (Yao).
The Japanese would arrest and murder anybody thought to be a Chinese soldier. The safety zones that were set up to protect some of the citizens and refugees were raided and men were dragged out to be killed or were, more often that not, shot on the spot. Large numbers of young men were dragged out of the city to be massacred. Sometimes, they would take anywhere from several thousand to tens of thousands at one time. These mass executions were mostly done by machine guns and, in most cases, those who were still breathing were bayoneted one by one. There were even some instances where the Japanese would pour gasoline on these people and burn them alive. It was once reported that they poured gasoline on a group of people tied together and shot at them, watching the bullets strike their bodies, then catch fire (Gray).
Many atrocities were committed in and around the city, most of them against civilians. The Japanese soldiers thought that killing these innocent people were fun and games. They invented new ways to brutally murder these people. Some of these violent acts included stabbing, shooting, burning, gutting, excavating the heart, decapitation, drowning, punching the body and eyes with an awl, castration, and even punching or stabbing objects into the females vaginas (Yao).
Another name for this forgotten holocaust is "The Rape of Nanjing." Such a title is appropriate for all the raping that occurred in six weeks, when approximately 20,000 women were raped. The Japanese soldiers were such brutes, that if they didn't rape the women in their homes they would take the women out in the streets and rape them, very often heartlessly killing them afterwards. They would often kill them by stabbing them with bayonets in the vagina or slicing open their stomachs. Many of these women that were raped were left on the streets with their genitals hanging out and some sort of object sticking out of their vagina. They would rape pregnant women and cut open their bellies, take out the fetus and play with it as if it was a football. They made fathers rape daughters, and sons rape mothers, and if they objected to this, they were instantly killed. Women of all kinds and ages were raped. They raped seventy year-old women, nine year-old girls, nuns, and high class wives. Many of the young and pretty girls were taken from their families and homes for days. They would even storm into the safety zones and take women by hundreds at a time. The Japanese would gang rape women up to twenty times a day. When these women returned, they would often fall into a state of depression or they would commit suicide from shame (Gray).
The Japanese did not only commit inhumane acts in Nanjing, but their brutal actions spread all over Asia. The Japanese government knew what was happening in Nanjing from the protests that were made by the Japanese Embassy. Yet they did nothing to stop the cruel behavior. Now, the Japanese government denies that such massacres were actually committed in Nanjing. They say it is a story made up by the Chinese, the "Nanjing Massacre never occurred" (Yao). If this story is a lie, then why and how did so many people die? Why are there pictures taken of these brutal acts by the Japanese soldiers? What about the Japanese confessions and their diaries to prove all the things they did? What about the hundreds of thousands of people who witnessed these crimes? What about the trials where many of the high ranking soldiers were found guilty and punished for their injustices? There is too much evidence against the Japanese soldiers to deny such cruelties (Gray).
During World War II, so many horrible acts were committed against the innocent. When it was all over, the bodies were countless as well as the tears shed around the world. The Japanese stole the lives of many, and at the same time killed millions of innocent people. The horrible memory of the Nanjing Massacre still lives with many of those who survived through it. With all that happened in such a short amount of time, it's a shame that the Nanjing Massacre is labeled the forgotten holocaust--not only forgotten, but denied by the Japanese executioners. -
The Japanese are a hugely conservative people; even the royal family is treated as gods. The only way they can get past the 'pride', 'ego' and hierachy system of their tightly knit nation is to disregard conventional laws and send the message to their leaders by other means.Originally posted by sourketchup:How would trying to help the nation face the past equate to the path of civil disobedience and in direct contravention of the law?
Anything else will be slamming against a brick wall. -
Greed?!?! Huh?Originally posted by Gedanken:WOOP! There it is!
It started with greed, and it's carrying on with greed. They couldn't give a good goddam about what they did because as far as they were concerned, they were out to rob other countries, and as long as the almighty yen was served, that made it all right - patriotic even.
How does causing widespread recession = greed? The yen is hardly a strong dollar, with frequent almost unpredictable fluctuations on the Nikkei Index based on even the most subtle market forces. Even our Sing dollar is far more stable than theirs.
As for robbing and looting in conquered countries, there is a saying: to the victor goes the spoils.
Americans, Russians and to a lesser extent, British and other allied soldiers likewise looted from axis lands, 'robbed' if you will. Yet few if any were ever convicted. In that aspect, they are no different from the Japs. -
Our govt holds parliaments where difference of opinions are raised but are ultimately of little consequence since it is almost a one-party govt anyway and MPs like Tan Soon Khoon who spoke up were unfairly criticised by heavyweight ministers. Just like the PTC, which gives the illusion of protecting consumer rights over transportation, but does little to combat greedy operators who apply for fare hikes again and again. Incidently, all such operators are GLCs.Originally posted by sourketchup:As to comparing our government's actions on the rise in living costs and various steps taken during elections to a government's denial of heinous crimes AND continued worship of war criminals, well, you get the idea.....
Of course i cannot speak for all East Asians baffled and outraged by their odd behaviour, but I think a sincere and heartfelt acceptance of responsibility, an apology and a national soul-searching would be a nice start, wouldn't it?
For their citizens to speak up hardly compares to what the brave group of Germans did, who dared to oppose Hitler in Nazi Germany.So again, the comparison is not valid. To turn it around, if Germans can risk their lives for a better country, can't the Japanese spend some effort in facing up to the truth? As I brought up earlier, the only coup (well, attempted) was mounted to prolong the war, not to stop it. The Japanese should face up to their past and attempt to expunge the stain in their culture that drove them down the path to war.
As our Minister Mentor related in an anecdote, Germans would put into their resumes their ranks and the military campaigns they took part in WWII, because they have apologised, they have come clean and they have made a new start. The Japanese, in contrast, has a blank in that part of their lives. How tragic, for them and for us.
The invasion of China was an "incident", the figures from the Rape of Nanking was inflated, and so on and so on, sigh...
So really, it is simply an ideal, and opinion that is being related. There is no difference when comparing our meek stand to our own govt against that of the Japanese people.
One does not compare it on the basis of a 'heinous crime' or trivialise those actions to our govt's own actions, because the Japanese leaders did not deny that war atrocities were committed. They simply refused to apologise unconditionally for it.
Like i said, living in denial. -
I take it you're being deliberately thick. Of course it's greed - unless it involves the yen, it's a bloody free-for-all as far as they're concerned, so much so that their response to torture and murder pales in comparison to the rash they break out in when it looks like the yen's going to make another drop.Originally posted by BillyBong:Greed?!?! Huh? -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Alternatively, the message could have been sent by a couple of atomic weapons. Whoops, they did that already.
The Japanese are a hugely conservative people; even the royal family is treated as gods. The only way they can get past the 'pride', 'ego' and hierachy system of their tightly knit nation is to disregard conventional laws and send the message to their leaders by [b]other means.
Anything else will be slamming against a brick wall. [/b]
By the lines of your argument, Billy, the Japs had EXACTLY what was coming to them when they got nuked. Whaddaya know, I agree with that.
In fact, if they are headed back to rearmament as boy in blues described, they need to be nuked again to keep them in line. After all, their postwar attitude doesn't reflect any signs of learning and by your argument above, they cannot self-regulate effectively, so someone's got to do it for them. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Oh, come on - are we resorting to the "but teacher, he did it too" argument?
Our govt holds parliaments where difference of opinions are raised but are ultimately of little consequence since it is almost a one-party govt anyway and MPs like Tan Soon Khoon who spoke up were unfairly criticised by heavyweight ministers. Just like the PTC, which gives the illusion of protecting consumer rights over transportation, but does little to combat greedy operators who apply for fare hikes again and again. Incidently, all such operators are GLCs.
So really, it is simply an ideal, and opinion that is being related. There is no difference when comparing our meek stand to our own govt against that of the Japanese people.
One does not compare it on the basis of a 'heinous crime' or trivialise those actions to our govt's own actions, because the Japanese leaders did not [b]deny that war atrocities were committed. They simply refused to apologise unconditionally for it.
Like i said, living in denial. [/b]