The Atomic Bombs and the Japanese
-
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Don't agree with you there.
The Japanese are a hugely conservative people; even the royal family is treated as gods. The only way they can get past the 'pride', 'ego' and hierachy system of their tightly knit nation is to disregard conventional laws and send the message to their leaders by [b]other means.
Anything else will be slamming against a brick wall. [/b]
Even if you are right, you just proved my point.
The Japanese, as a people and a culture, cannot and are not able to own up to their past (please refer to above posts on the behaviour of the imperial soldiers, I hope you agree it is shocking).
As I said, I don't agree. It is up to them to change, to learn that they are wrong. Now if the system is built such that it is not able to assimilate corrections, it is quite worrying (sorry for being mildly sarcastic) given their recent past, don't you think so? -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Allow me to quote your signature-->blind belief in authority is the single greatest enemy of truth (Albert Einsteint).
Our govt holds parliaments where difference of opinions are raised but are ultimately of little consequence since it is almost a one-party govt anyway and MPs like Tan Soon Khoon who spoke up were unfairly criticised by heavyweight ministers. Just like the PTC, which gives the illusion of protecting consumer rights over transportation, but does little to combat greedy operators who apply for fare hikes again and again. Incidently, all such operators are GLCs.
So really, it is simply an ideal, and opinion that is being related. There is no difference when comparing our meek stand to our own govt against that of the Japanese people.
One does not compare it on the basis of a 'heinous crime' or trivialise those actions to our govt's own actions, because the Japanese leaders did not [b]deny that war atrocities were committed. They simply refused to apologise unconditionally for it.
Like i said, living in denial. [/b]
Anyway, step by step now. So they did not deny the atrocities? How is calling an all-out, brutal invasion of China an "incident" not a denial? How is first saying that yeah, "we caused a lot of pain and suffering, but we suffered too" not dodging the issue? Oh by the way, the west forced us down the path of war, because we really wanted an empire but the westerners refused to let us have it.
And if they really did not deny their part in the atrocities, what is the point if they do not sincerely apologise? -
You're obviously ignoring what i said.Originally posted by Gedanken:I take it you're being deliberately thick. Of course it's greed - unless it involves the yen, it's a bloody free-for-all as far as they're concerned, so much so that their response to torture and murder pales in comparison to the rash they break out in when it looks like the yen's going to make another drop.
Would anyone for that matter do something, which while incidently could be called 'noble', but will most likely cause severe suffering to the masses?
We're not in any position to pre-judge the lives of others and their actions from an armchair.
If you're so one-tracked into thinking it's merely and simply about greed, and just repeating your deadpan link to 'torture' and 'murder', then you're just barking up the wrong tree. -
I was responding to this based on the assumption that sourketchup was inaccurately comparing a 'henious crime' committed by the japs with common practices of SG politics. (and those of countries around the world)Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, come on - are we resorting to the "but teacher, he did it too" argument?
The current generation of japs did not perform those atrocities, thus are not responsible for any 'henious crime'. What they are responsible for is living in denial.
A opinion generated by their 'ego' and 'pride'.
In short, they disagree with the rest of the world concerning the extent of their war crimes. -
I have no doubt that 'little boy' and 'fat man' were dropped precisely for those reasons you suggested.Originally posted by Gedanken:Alternatively, the message could have been sent by a couple of atomic weapons. Whoops, they did that already.
By the lines of your argument, Billy, the Japs had EXACTLY what was coming to them when they got nuked. Whaddaya know, I agree with that.
In fact, if they are headed back to rearmament as boy in blues described, they need to be nuked again to keep them in line. After all, their postwar attitude doesn't reflect any signs of learning and by your argument above, they cannot self-regulate effectively, so someone's got to do it for them.
But if you're insanely suggesting that others should be nuked to fit into your line of thought, you're madly mistaken.
Carnage and nuke war do not solve opinionated problems.
-
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Say what?!
You're obviously ignoring what i said.
Would anyone for that matter do something, which while incidently could be called '[b]noble', but will most likely cause severe suffering to the masses?
We're not in any position to pre-judge the lives of others and their actions from an armchair.
If you're so one-tracked into thinking it's merely and simply about greed, and just repeating your deadpan link to 'torture' and 'murder', then you're just barking up the wrong tree. [/b]
Read the accounts presented by boy in blues. From any perspective, be it in an armchair or on ground zero, none of those actions could by any measure of the imagination be condoned. It is literally torture and murder, and that's not a matter of judgement - it's blindingly obvious. -
It's no more insane than a Japanese sticking his hands in his pockets, looking at the sky and whistling when faced with the magnitude of what happened, and even more insane if they're now considering rearmament.Originally posted by BillyBong:But if you're insanely suggesting that others should be nuked to fit into your line of thought, you're madly mistaken. -
I dont care about the past, in fact now I love japanese culture . Japan Airlines, Ayumi Hamasaki , Sushi , Tokyo ....etc
-
Protectionism is definitely one circumtantial defect of Japanese culture: the inability to open up.Originally posted by sourketchup:Don't agree with you there.
Even if you are right, you just proved my point.
The Japanese, as a people and a culture, cannot and are not able to own up to their past (please refer to above posts on the behaviour of the imperial soldiers, I hope you agree it is shocking).
As I said, I don't agree. It is up to them to change, to learn that they are wrong. Now if the system is built such that it is not able to assimilate corrections, it is quite worrying (sorry for being mildly sarcastic) given their recent past, don't you think so?
Their gross reliance on native language, govt intervention on industry protectionism, relatively closed market and their own basic conservative nature says it all.
They are not about to change overnight, though there are signs of reforms.
Let them worry about their own inadequacies, as it will have a greater impact on them rather than the rest of the world if they do not embrace change. One day, the Japs will learn the world does not revolve around them. -
There's no need to regurgitate everything others have said.Originally posted by Gedanken:Say what?!
Read the accounts presented by boy in blues. From any perspective, be it in an armchair or on ground zero, none of those actions could by any measure of the imagination be condoned. It is literally torture and murder, and that's not a matter of judgement - it's blindingly obvious.
That's not to say anyone denies that they did perform such acts during their occupation.
But if that's all you're intent on serving as your basis for argument, then you need not carry on since i already got your point 3 posts back. -
Of course there's a need to regurgitate what others have said. It's all right there in front of you, but you're hell bent on denying the blindingly obvious. If reason doesn't get the point through, I'll have to resort to repetition.Originally posted by BillyBong:There's no need to regurgitate everything others have said.
That's not to say anyone denies that they did perform such acts during their occupation.
But if that's all you're intent on serving as your basis for argument, then you need not carry on since i already got your point 3 posts back.
Don't try claiming that you got it because you obviously haven't, as reflected by your attempts to play down the scale of what took place. -
so do some of the chaps posting here .... judging by entries in the Original babes forum, they love japanese babes just fine ........Originally posted by Boeing787:I dont care about the past, in fact now I love japanese culture . Japan Airlines, Ayumi Hamasaki , Sushi , Tokyo ....etc
but nevermind .... that gives me hope that we'll all learn to get alone one day ..... -
When accused of war crimes, they did not violently protest. On that basis, govts from affected countries demanded vasts sums of monetary compensation on behalf of the comfort women of their country and for other acts stemming from inhuman treatement to human experimentation.Originally posted by sourketchup:Allow me to quote your signature-->blind belief in authority is the single greatest enemy of truth (Albert Einsteint).
Anyway, step by step now. So they did not deny the atrocities? How is calling an all-out, brutal invasion of China an "incident" not a denial? How is first saying that yeah, "we caused a lot of pain and suffering, but we suffered too" not dodging the issue? Oh by the way, the west forced us down the path of war, because we really wanted an empire but the westerners refused to let us have it.
And if they really did not deny their part in the atrocities, what is the point if they do not sincerely apologise?
This sums up their likely position. The debate to apologise or not may have already been tossed up behind closed doors; the question was probably how, if the japanese govt did apologise, to address the millions (perhaps billions) of financial compensation demanded. In that sense, how much is enough in terms of financial cost?
Should the current generation of Japanese suffer the fallout of their ancestors? And i'm talking about the common folks who have no direct responsibility to those atrocities.
The first responsibility of a govt is to their own people. And that means the current generation of people, not those of the past. If by apologising means incurring a financial debt of epic proportions, creating a recession and record unemployment levels, then people will truly question if it is indeed in their best interest to do so.
I'm not condoning the position of their leaders, but at this junction, there may not be a suitable option that satisfies both sides. Not yet anyway. -
Are you that naive to think that it's that simple?Originally posted by BillyBong:I was responding to this based on the assumption that sourketchup was inaccurately comparing a 'henious crime' committed by the japs with common practices of SG politics. (and those of countries around the world)
The current generation of japs did not perform those atrocities, thus are not responsible for any 'henious crime'. What they are responsible for is living in denial.
A opinion generated by their 'ego' and 'pride'.
In short, they disagree with the rest of the world concerning the extent of their war crimes.
1) They don't think they did anything wrong in the first place
2) There are rumbles about rearmament, plans which include aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons
Can you reasonably say that we have nothing to be concerned about here? They show absolutely no sign of understanding how their actions in WW2 are wrong, and now they want to go out and get new weapons. Hello? Anyone home?
Mind you, before you go down another "but he did it too" track, yes, in the same light I am particularly concerned about where the US is currently headed and the Australian government's attitude towards native title. just because other people do it doen't make it right, so let's please get that straight. -
There are opinions and there are alternatives.Originally posted by Gedanken:Of course there's a need to regurgitate what others have said. It's all right there in front of you, but you're hell bent on denying the blindingly obvious. If reason doesn't get the point through, I'll have to resort to repetition.
Don't try claiming that you got it because you obviously haven't, as reflected by your attempts to play down the scale of what took place.
Just because you see it your way doesn't mean others should too.
If you're so narrow-minded and prefer shoving your points down other people's throats, then there's no point in having a discussion. -
Oh, so witness accounts are just opinions, are they? What about piles of mutilated bodies? Are they just opinions too?Originally posted by BillyBong:There are opinions and there are alternatives.
Just because you see it your way doesn't mean others should too.
If you're so narrow-minded and prefer shoving your points down other people's throats, then there's no point in having a discussion.
The key issue here isn't financial compensation, it's acknowledgement of the horror of what they did during the war, hopefully giving their victims some reassurance that it will never happen again. instead, they want to rearm while denying their wrongdoing. That's just plain scary to anyone who's not blinkered.
I put it to you that you're the one being narrow-minded, by glibly glossing over the facts while harping on your point that because they weren't there, they've got absolutely no connection. -
Rather are you so gulliable to believe everything you read?Originally posted by Gedanken:Are you that naive to think that it's that simple?
1) They don't think they did anything wrong in the first place
2) There are rumbles about rearmament, plans which include aircraft carriers and nuclear weapons
Can you reasonably say that we have nothing to be concerned about here? They show absolutely no sign of understanding how their actions in WW2 are wrong, and now they want to go out and get new weapons. Hello? Anyone home?
Mind you, before you go down another "but he did it too" track, yes, in the same light I am particularly concerned about where the US is currently headed and the Australian government's attitude towards native title. just because other people do it doen't make it right, so let's please get that straight.
I'd sooner trust the Japs with Nukes than Iran or North Korea.
Every govt has an agenda. Theirs is simply for homeland defence against a very real threat in the North.
If you prefer to entertain conspiracy theories on the Japanese on other reasons why they would want to purchase weapons, then go right ahead... -
Did i deny that those things happened? Did i in any way state that they didn't deserve what they got?Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, so witness accounts are just opinions, are they? What about piles of mutilated bodies? Are they just opinions too?
I put it to you that you're the one being narrow-minded, by glibly glossing over the facts while harping on your point that because they weren't there, they've got absolutely no connection.
Have you suddenly run out of substantiated arguments that you now resort to wild conjectures and ridiculous assumptions, things that i never mentioned at all?
Get this through your thick skull: the japanese of the past, and the Japanese of the now are two different generations. They do not deserve to be lumped together to make an economical package for your convenience. Granted they still live in self-denial, but that problem lies with their leaders.
Let them wake up on their own. -
You still don't get it, do you?Originally posted by BillyBong:Did i deny that those things happened? Did i in any way state that they didn't deserve what they got?
Have you suddenly run out of substantiated arguments that you now resort to wild conjectures and ridiculous assumptions, things that i never mentioned at all?
Get this through your thick skull: the japanese of the past, and the Japanese of the now are two different generations. They do not deserve to be lumped together to make an economical package for your convenience. Granted they still live in self-denial, but that problem lies with their leaders.
Let them wake up on their own.
I'm sure people were happy to leave well enough alone and pretend that everything was hunky-dory, and oh no, we MUST be politically correct at all costs, just like you are doing now. Well, well, well, a lot of your sort were proven wrong on December 7 1942, and more recently on September 11, 2001.
So sure, convince yourself that you've got a good handle on things and it's all love and sunshine.
You ARE aware that Japan has plans to build two carriers by 2010, aren't you? Sure, it's just rumours - everybody reads Jane's just to get the latest goss on who's boffing who on Big Brother. Self defence? What the devil does a carrier have to do with self defence? It's purely for projection of power, unlike destroyers or other navy craft.
The fact is that, besides a few flowery communicaes, we've got nothing that says that they're sorry and it won't happen again, and when they start beefing up their weapons stocks, you'd have to be a fool not to be wary. -
Ah, there we go again, your favourite "but he did it too" defence. Well done, Mr Cochran, but this isn't primary school anymore.Originally posted by BillyBong:I'd sooner trust the Japs with Nukes than Iran or North Korea. -
The problem does not lie with the leaders. The sickness lies in their culture and their society. And that is precisely why they have to face up to their past and lance this abscessOriginally posted by BillyBong:Did i deny that those things happened? Did i in any way state that they didn't deserve what they got?
Have you suddenly run out of substantiated arguments that you now resort to wild conjectures and ridiculous assumptions, things that i never mentioned at all?
Get this through your thick skull: the japanese of the past, and the Japanese of the now are two different generations. They do not deserve to be lumped together to make an economical package for your convenience. Granted they still live in self-denial, but that problem lies with their leaders.
Let them wake up on their own. -
Please feel free to have the last say, since it's pointless to discuss anything with you given your very high resistance to alternative arguments.Originally posted by Gedanken:Ah, there we go again, your favourite "but he did it too" defence. Well done, Mr Cochran, but this isn't primary school anymore. -
Giving up, are we? Or are you just going to try and disguise that under the aegis of pacifism?
Oh yeah, I'm the one who's resistant while you're the one who uses the same childish argument over and over and over and over and over again. -
PRC should invade Japan and make it into an Autonomous Region lor.lol
-
My sentiments exactly!Originally posted by sourketchup:The problem does not lie with the leaders. The sickness lies in their culture and their society.
Singapore expresses regret over Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni Shrine
Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 15 August 2006 1358 hrs
Singapore has expressed its regret over Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi's visit to the Yasukuni Shrine on Tuesday.
In a statement, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said that the Singapore Government's position on the visits to the shrine in Tokyo has been articulated many times and remains unchanged.
The statement said: "These visits are both a Japanese domestic issue and an international diplomatic concern. From the latter point of view, it is a fact that such visits have and will continue to provoke strong reactions in China, Korea and other parts of Asia.
"They thus are not helpful to the larger common interest of building closer relations and cooperation in East Asia, including Southeast Asia. We hope that this larger common interest which Japan undoubtedly shares will not be overlooked by Japan." - CNA/ir
//
S. Korean gov't denounces Koizumi's shrine visit
The South Korean government said Tuesday it was deeply disappointed and angered by Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's latest visit to the controversial Yasukuni Shrine honoring Japan's Class-A war criminals.
The Foreign Ministry said in a spokesman's statement that the visit would strain South Korean-Japanese relations and obstruct regional cooperation and friendship in Northeast Asia.
"The South Korean government regrets that Prime Minister Koizumi paid a visit to Yasukuni Shrine despite repeated concerns and opposition from the international community. We sternly note that such a nationalistic attitude has worsened South Korean-Japanese relations and disturbed Northeast Asia's regional cooperation and friendship," said the statement.
"Japan will have to build confidence with neighbors if it is really willing to contribute to regional peace and prosperity and play a responsible role in international society," it said.
Earlier on Tuesday morning, Koizumi visited the shrine in Tokyo, defying repeated warnings from Seoul, Beijing and other regional countries victimized by Japan's war of aggression in the early parts of the past century.
Koizumi had visited the shrine five times since taking office in 2001, but the latest trip was the first time he went there on Aug. 15, the anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War II.
Aug. 15 is also celebrated in Korea as Liberation Day.
South Korea, China and other countries oppose the shrine, which honors Japan's 2.5 million war dead including executed war criminals, as they consider it a glorification of Japan's past militarism.
Seoul, Aug. 15 (Yonhap News)
Posted at : Aug.15,2006 13:38 KST
//
Downer attacks Japan PM for shrine visit
Mark Dodd
August 15, 2006
ALEXANDER Downer today openly criticised the Japanese prime minister for visiting a controversial World War II shrine because among those honoured at the site was a "class A" war criminal.
In tougher comments than those made in Japan two weeks ago, the Australian Foreign Minister said Junichiro Koizumi's pilgrimage to the shrine made people feel the Japanese were not showing respect to the dead from other nations.
A former South Korean spy who penetrated into North Korea, holds a head of a doll of Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi during anti-Japan rally against Koizumi's war shrine visit near the Japanese embassy in Seoul, Tuesday, Aug. 15, 2006. South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun on Tuesday urged Japan to repent for its past history and take substantial steps to resolve the dispute over the war shrine that critics say glorifies Japan's militarist past. The letters on the banner read " Oppose war shrine visit." (AP Photo/Ahn Young-joon)
Riot police block anti-Japan protesters marching towards the Japanese embassy in Seoul. Reuters