Not A Word Of Thanks From 'Xenophobic' Man
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Well, according to Buxton, the chap had a while to react to him. Probably he was just out to spite Buxton.
With the casual preference towards [b]"Singlish" even amongst the best educated, it has to be reflexxive second nature to respond with the full understanding of the impact of the word Xenophobic.
It has to be almost like a "knee-jerk" response in a sudden confrontation.
How many Singaporean can truly make such a response in a sudden confrontation, and with any understanding to the full meaning and application of such a technical word ?
If the event did happen the way it was described, the Singaporean concerned must be well educated, and peeved to be taught a lesson in manners by an "Ang Moh".
It perhaps reflect a certain degree in reasserting false pride for having one's poor etiquette being exposed - ( to recover from one's inferior position by aggressively being superior ? ).
Inexcusable to say the least but I wonder why couldn't Buxton let it pass, if he is prepared to hold it open long enough ?
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Hell, there is no smoke without fire. If Buxton had not acted like a silly child and acted like his years, and realised that the world's a tough place where s.hit happens and we all pick ourselves up and move on; this whole incident wouldn't have happened.
If I had a chap running after me wanting a little Thank You; which I might not have said due to many different factors like human falliability, I'd oblige him with a nasty remark about how hard up he is for acknowledgement and acceptance to have a hard-on about another human being's thanks.
Geez. -
Yes, I missed that part concerning his commitment to a local family, it is an error on my part for assuming that there was an axe to grind towards Singapore.Originally posted by Gedanken:Hmm. Atobe, those are a few tenuous points you've made there.
Buxton isn't some expat who's just been assigned to Singapore by his parent company. He's chosen to settle down in Singapore, so what makes you think he has an axe to grind?
Second, if Xenophobic Man is middle aged, he would have been attending school at a time where, attending the right school, he could easily have developed enough vocabulary to know what xenophobic means, or at least fidn the meaning out. It's a bit of a stretch to rule out his being a Singaporean on this basis.
Finally, Buxton has settled down in Singapore and raised a family. It stands to reason that he would have had enough exposure to the local population (especially seeing as how he married into it) to tell a local from a foreigner, doesn't it?
Given that it was an event that occurred in a very casual setting, perhaps ... could there be some slight shade of racial or cultural superiority in bringing this issue up ?
How often has anyone of us hold the door open but received not even a word of thanks and let the matter passed ?
Will I go out of my way to create some problem for myself by making a snide remark of saying "Thank You" to myself - on the other person's behalf as he passes me - when I am prepared to hold the door open, and the other party decide not to express his gratitude - (for whatever reasons) ?
Fortunately, my pride held its place, and I have not made that an issue, as the number of "thankful response" that I have encountered was enough to cover those from the silent ones. -
same goes.... some mutter below one's hearing range... mistakes happen with cultural differences.... I have to tolerate the profuse gratitude from an old lady, who continuously expressed her thanks for helping her get into the elevator and identifying her correct floor, while I was troubled with the terms of a contract to be negotiated.... it lasted from the Ground Floor to the 30th Floor.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, according to Buxton, the chap had a while to react to him. Probably he was just out to spite Buxton.
Hell, there is no smoke without fire. If Buxton had not acted like a silly child and acted like his years, and realised that the world's a tough place where s.hit happens and we all pick ourselves up and move on; this whole incident wouldn't have happened.
If I had a chap running after me wanting a little Thank You; which I might not have said due to many different factors like human falliability, I'd oblige him with a nasty remark about how hard up he is for acknowledgement and acceptance to have a hard-on about another human being's thanks.
Geez.
We need to take the world as it is, and have a good laugh - except when our world could have been made better when it is within the hands of the P.O.O -
Originally posted by Atobe:
I don't read it as a racial or cultural issue, Atobe. Regardless of that factor, it's undeniably poor manners not to thank someone when he's held the door for you, isn't it?
Yes, I missed that part concerning his commitment to a local family, it is an error on my part for assuming that there was an axe to grind towards Singapore.
Given that it was an event that occurred in a very casual setting, perhaps ... could there be some slight shade of racial or cultural superiority in bringing this issue up ?
How often has anyone of us hold the door open but received not even a word of thanks and let the matter passed ?
Will I go out of my way to create some problem for myself by making a [b]snide remark of saying "Thank You" to myself - on the other person's behalf as he passes me - when I am prepared to hold the door open, and the other party decide not to express his gratitude - (for whatever reasons) ?
Fortunately, my pride held its place, and I have not made that an issue, as the number of "thankful response" that I have encountered was enough to cover those from the silent ones.
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Let's face it, we're disgruntled when things like that happen to us. Yes, some of us shrug it off phlegmetically and perhaps sigh at the sorry state of affairs, but Buxton decided that he wasn't having any of that, and I for one don't see anything too wrong with raising something that clearly is a problem.
While someone's failure to say "thank you" is in no way life-threatening, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it isn't important, and equally important is apathy towards such things. To avoid confrontation, we often let sleeping dogs lie, but like I said, we're equally apathetic towards pregnant women and the elderly standing in buses and trains while healthy buffoons take up much-needed seats. Where, exactly, does the point lie where we say, "Enough is enough"?
Lest it look like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, I'd like to point out that change has to start somewhere, and that somewhere is often humble in comparison to the larger issue at hand. For example, race relations in the United States went through a radical change a few decades ago, and that process started with a black woman refusing to sit at the back of the bus. -
Yes, I certainly agree with you that one has to take a pro-active way of setting things right.Originally posted by Gedanken:I don't read it as a racial or cultural issue, Atobe. Regardless of that factor, it's undeniably poor manners not to thank someone when he's held the door for you, isn't it?
Let's face it, we're disgruntled when things like that happen to us. Yes, some of us shrug it off phlegmetically and perhaps sigh at the sorry state of affairs, but Buxton decided that he wasn't having any of that, and I for one don't see anything too wrong with raising something that clearly is a problem.
While someone's failure to say "thank you" is in no way life-threatening, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it isn't important, and equally important is apathy towards such things. To avoid confrontation, we often let sleeping dogs lie, but like I said, we're equally apathetic towards pregnant women and the elderly standing in buses and trains while healthy buffoons take up much-needed seats. Where, exactly, does the point lie where we say, "Enough is enough"?
Lest it look like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, I'd like to point out that change has to start somewhere, and that somewhere is often humble in comparison to the larger issue at hand. For example, race relations in the United States went through a radical change a few decades ago, and that process started with a black woman refusing to sit at the back of the bus.
However, being confrontational smacks of a certain degree of self-righteousness, or aggressive superiority of one's values over another - and perhaps Buxton saw Xenophobic Man as someone being inferior - not only in manners and values, but perhaps being inferior in physical size, and decided to take the confrontation to X-Man in a Public Place ?
There are many instances of social ugliness in Singapore - and the most common one is that of leaving a fast-food restaurant WITHOUT clearing one's table after having finished; or clearing the table for oneself by transferring all the items onto another table, for it to be cleared by someone else.
To kick-start some change, I do my small part by clearing my table before I leave, wiping the leftover from the table with the house-tissue, emptying my tray in the trash bin, and leaving the emptied tray on top of the bin.
At the local food-court, I will use my own tissue to clean any sauce that dripped onto the table, and bring my tray to the nearest mobile clearing station.
Is there any use to be confrontational to change bad social habits ?
Under certain circumstances, I will assert my rights if the bad social habits infringe on my rights - as in a cinema, when the bad social habit of answering a phone continuously. I will do so at the risks of a verbal exchange that lead to physical violence.
At the bottom line, perhaps Buxton has approached the entire episode from his own cultural perspective that has not yet been entirely immersed nor accepted the Singapore settings.
It will take some time for a cross-exchange of flavors into his pot and ours, and hopefully it will be done in the most amicable way possible - without injured pride or body. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Dunno, Atobe - what exactly leads you to conclude that there's a hint of superiority? The way I see it, all the information within the original article is pointed at Buxton's expressing his disgruntlement at Xenophobic Man's lack of manners and the resulting consequences. I don't see anything in the article to imply that this started as a matter of anything more than a lack of manners.
However, being confrontational smacks of a certain degree of self-righteousness, or aggressive superiority of one's values over another - and perhaps Buxton saw [b]Xenophobic Man as someone being inferior - not only in manners and values, but perhaps being inferior in physical size, and decided to take the confrontation to X-Man in a Public Place ?
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Is there any use to be confrontational to change bad social habits ?
Under certain circumstances, I will assert my rights if the bad social habits infringe on my rights - as in a cinema, when the bad social habit of answering a phone continuously. I will do so at the risks of a verbal exchange that lead to physical violence.
At the bottom line, perhaps Buxton has approached the entire episode from his own cultural perspective that has not yet been entirely immersed nor accepted the Singapore settings.
It will take some time for a cross-exchange of flavors into his pot and ours, and hopefully it will be done in the most amicable way possible - without injured pride or body.
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I'll agree that Buxton's stance could be interpreted as self-righteousness, though. On the other hand, it could equally be that he was sufficiently annoyed to do something about the situation. It's a very subjective matter IMHO.
In and of itself, Buxton's "Your welcome" was not the deciding factor in this situation. Instead, it was Xenophobic Man's intransigent and recalcitrant attitude in unabashedly claiming, "I don't have to bow down to you". What did bowing down have to do with the situation? It appears that instead of Buxton putting himself in a superior position, Xenophobe placed himself in an imagined inferior position which he then tried to fight his way out of in the most Quixotic manner. -
The fact that X-Man had responded in the manner he did confirms my suspicion to this entire sorry episode as I have stated; and this is drawn from X-Man's reported remarks - "I don't have to bow down to you" - that was probably made in direct response to Buxton's body language, voice tone and pitch.Originally posted by Gedanken:Dunno, Atobe - what exactly leads you to conclude that there's a hint of superiority? The way I see it, all the information within the original article is pointed at Buxton's expressing his disgruntlement at Xenophobic Man's lack of manners and the resulting consequences. I don't see anything in the article to imply that this started as a matter of anything more than a lack of manners.
I'll agree that Buxton's stance could be interpreted as self-righteousness, though. On the other hand, it could equally be that he was sufficiently annoyed to do something about the situation. It's a very subjective matter IMHO.
In and of itself, Buxton's "Your welcome" was not the deciding factor in this situation. Instead, it was Xenophobic Man's intransigent and recalcitrant attitude in unabashedly claiming, "I don't have to bow down to you". What did bowing down have to do with the situation? It appears that instead of Buxton putting himself in a superior position, Xenophobe placed himself in an imagined inferior position which he then tried to fight his way out of in the most Quixotic manner.
Unfortunately, we do not have the same benefit of being physically present - during the confrontation - except to depend on the printed words from Buxton's side of his encounter with X-Man.
What about X-Man's side of this sorry episode ?
The fact that Buxton would make a 'mountain out of a molehill' towards X-Man's unresponsiveness to an uncomplimented courteous effort from Buxton probably shook X-Man up more then necessarily.
I am not making any excuse for X-Man, as I would have felt shocked that someone will run after me, to elicit an acknowlegement of thanks for something which I thought my unexpressed appreciation was known to such a kind gesture and effort made - by someone who probably have done it as second nature without demanding acknowledgment in return.
It was definitely not Buxton's "You're welcome" remark that was the deciding factor, but it was Buxton's direct up-the-face confrontation with X-Man over a very small issue.
By writing to the ST Forum, is Buxton perhaps seeking redress in gaining public sympathy in which he felt peeved with the outcome of an unfinished confrontation ?
As third parties, we have only Buxton printed views to go by, and it is based on Buxton's version that we learn of X-Man ability to pronounce clearly the word xenophobic - said so clearly for Buxton to understand and presumably without any excited Asian accented stuttering, and through the heated emotion of being confronted over a small issue.
This is a remarkable achievement on the part of X-Man who is a Singaporean, and whose mother tongue is not English.
You are definitely correct, and I sense a certain degree of inferiority and superiority on both sides - X-Man reasserting his own superiority in being made inferior by the audacious and condescending attempt by Buxton to teach some manners. A "kwai loh" boosted by his own sense of superior righteousness in etiquette correctness in trying to teach an Asian about courtesy - in Public ?
"Extreme Racism" aside, there exist fixxed attitudes of one race towards another even in this Twenty-First Century; and although not vividly expressed - as in Buxton's printed expose - one's perception towards another behaviour can be colored by one's innate values and opinions towards others.
Will Buxton have taken the trouble to write such an expose to the national paper in his original place of domicile - over similar incidents encountered with his own country men ?
Will his community have taken note of such a mundane incident that probably occur countless times on a daily basis ? -
what happened to our values..?
yes, it's rude to chase someone to ask for a thank you..?
but isn't it equally rude not to acknowledge one's good gestures..?
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Originally posted by Gedanken:Well said, sg. You've gotten right to the crux of the matter.
I am surprised this discussion goes so far. Personally it does not matter if that was Mr. Buxton, Mr. Chong or Mr Kumar, if I really owe him a thank you I would just say thank you. What happened sure did not reflect very well on the upbringing of Xman, unless he was very much engrossed in something and forgot to say thank you. On the other hand, Buxton can demand for 'thank you' or even a tip, if he does not deserve it I would just tell him his service wasn't good enough. I really can't see how this becomes a racial issue.
Have fun, and have a nice day. -
I'm just tired of arguing with a person who has that "he's always right attitude". You are just too stubborn to see other opinions.Originally posted by Gedanken:Oh, how very good. Run out of ammo, so you have to resort to, "yes, I'm wrong - big deal".
Now we know why you're backing Mr Xenophobe - you do pretty much what he does.
I have also said that the X-man was in the wrong in doing what he did. But buxton was also wrong in making such a a big fuss about it either. Period. -
That's conjecture, Atobe. Given that X-man already demonstrated a lack of manners, it is also entirely possible that he could have reacted in a hostile and manner to a situation that didn't call for it. There's nothing that conclusively shows that Buxton was acting superior, even though we of course cannot exclude that possibility.Originally posted by Atobe:The fact that X-Man had responded in the manner he did confirms my suspicion to this entire sorry episode as I have stated; and this is drawn from X-Man's reported remarks - "I don't have to bow down to you" - that was probably made in direct response to Buxton's body language, voice tone and pitch.
I disagree, Atobe. X-man could have acted in a mature manner and acknowledged his mistake, but instead he acted like a petulant child and escalated the matter, to the extent that even after disengaging from Buxton, he came back and started things all over again.Originally posted by Atobe:What about X-Man's side of this sorry episode ?
The fact that Buxton would make a 'mountain out of a molehill' towards X-Man's unresponsiveness to an uncomplimented courteous effort from Buxton probably shook X-Man up more then necessarily.
I am not making any excuse for X-Man, as I would have felt shocked that someone will run after me, to elicit an acknowlegement of thanks for something which I thought my unexpressed appreciation was known to such a kind gesture and effort made - by someone who probably have done it as second nature without demanding acknowledgment in return.
It was definitely not Buxton's "You're welcome" remark that was the deciding factor, but it was Buxton's direct up-the-face confrontation with X-Man over a very small issue.
Perhaps, but it's equally possible that he is simply pointing out a social issue that he sees for for the public to pay attention to.Originally posted by Atobe:By writing to the ST Forum, is Buxton perhaps seeking redress in gaining public sympathy in which he felt peeved with the outcome of an unfinished confrontation ?
That's not quite accurate, is it? Being Singaporean, X-man's mother tongue may not be English, but since it's so commonly spoken, why shouldn't we expect him to be realistically able to pronounce "xenophobic"?Originally posted by Atobe:As third parties, we have only Buxton printed views to go by, and it is based on Buxton's version that we learn of X-Man ability to pronounce clearly the word xenophobic - said so clearly for Buxton to understand and presumably without any excited Asian accented stuttering, and through the heated emotion of being confronted over a small issue.
This is a remarkable achievement on the part of X-Man who is a Singaporean, and whose mother tongue is not English.
The key issue here is X-man's lack of manners - after all, this is how the incident started. How he felt about it and what other issues he associated with it are driven by nobody besides himself. He apparently turned an issue about manners into a racial one, and from the looks of it, it was simply to draw attention away from his lack of manners. I'd read that as him being simply irresponsible and childish.Originally posted by Atobe:You are definitely correct, and I sense a certain degree of inferiority and superiority on both sides - X-Man reasserting his own superiority in being made inferior by the audacious and condescending attempt by Buxton to teach some manners. A "kwai loh" boosted by his own sense of superior righteousness in etiquette correctness in trying to teach an Asian about courtesy - in Public ?
"Extreme Racism" aside, there exist fixxed attitudes of one race towards another even in this Twenty-First Century; and although not vividly expressed - as in Buxton's printed expose - one's perception towards another behaviour can be colored by one's innate values and opinions towards others.
Will Buxton have taken the trouble to write such an expose to the national paper in his original place of domicile - over similar incidents encountered with his own country men ?
Will his community have taken note of such a mundane incident that probably occur countless times on a daily basis ?
As for what Buxton would have done in country of origin, who knows? He certainly seems vocal enough, and in countries where speaking one's mind is encouraged, it's entirely possible he could have done exactly the same thing. Chances are that someone would call him petty, but we don't have enough information to determine if that would have stopped him. -
Agreed. Apart from simple manners and maturity, there's really nothing much to this incident.Originally posted by sgdiehard: I am surprised this discussion goes so far. Personally it does not matter if that was Mr. Buxton, Mr. Chong or Mr Kumar, if I really owe him a thank you I would just say thank you. What happened sure did not reflect very well on the upbringing of Xman, unless he was very much engrossed in something and forgot to say thank you. On the other hand, Buxton can demand for 'thank you' or even a tip, if he does not deserve it I would just tell him his service wasn't good enough. I really can't see how this becomes a racial issue.
Have fun, and have a nice day. -
If I think you're wrong, I'll say so and tell you why. If you can't deal with that, it's not my baggage to drag.Originally posted by Anycall:I'm just tired of arguing with a person who has that "he's always right attitude". You are just too stubborn to see other opinions. -
Wahh
So much drama over what a bo liao ang moh said -
Bo liao is correct.Originally posted by tqw:Wahh So much drama over what a bo liao ang moh said
So Mr X did not say thank you. So bloody what? He was not very polite, but to hunt for a "thank you" is really petty too. -
I think its enough already lah. You so protect the ang moh for what? Other people already don't want to talk about it, you still kpkb. So free ah you?Originally posted by Gedanken:If I think you're wrong, I'll say so and tell you why. If you can't deal with that, it's not my baggage to drag.
You got your view but so do others mah. Why keep forcing yourself on others leh? -
I'm guessing when both buxton and his supporter gendaken here read the forum section in the papers, they intentionally leave out the boquets part. You know, when some singaporeans do actually do nice things and are polite.Originally posted by tqw:I think its enough already lah. You so protect the ang moh for what? Other people already don't want to talk about it, you still kpkb. So free ah you?
You got your view but so do others mah. Why keep forcing yourself on others leh? -
Tsk tsk tsk. Can't stand on your own now, can you?Originally posted by Anycall:I'm guessing when both buxton and his supporter gendaken here read the forum section in the papers, they intentionally leave out the boquets part. You know, when some singaporeans do actually do nice things and are polite.
Hmm, didn't Buxton write:Singapore has been very kind to me: regular work, a nice home and, above all, safety. I have great affection for this multiracial beacon of light in a terribly divided world.
I guess you don't read too well, do you? -
*sigh* For the gazillionth time, this isn't about race. What's it take for people to understand such a simple point?Originally posted by tqw:I think its enough already lah. You so protect the ang moh for what? Other people already don't want to talk about it, you still kpkb. So free ah you?
You got your view but so do others mah. Why keep forcing yourself on others leh?
Mind you, I was having a discussion with Atobe about this afternoon, and it doesn't look like he particularly minded exploring the topic. I was done with Anycall this morning, but if he wants to keep coming back for more, is that under my control?
Yes I have my view, and my view is that Anycall is wrong. Why you try to censor me leh? So free ah you? -
Jit eh tai ji ah neh bo liao ler an jua ai chap leh?Originally posted by sourketchup:Bo liao is correct.
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dood there's nothing wrong with him. maybe he grew up in a bad environment. you didn't have to chase after him for a word of thanks. it is nice to help him. but to help people just to chase them for a thank you is pathetic.Originally posted by dragg:extracted from straits times forum.
EVERY day in the media we are exhorted to welcome the arrival next month of the representatives of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank with 'four million smiles'. I hope that the 16,000 delegates are greeted with the genuine warmth which I received when I arrived here 16 years ago.
Now I am married to a lovely Singaporean and have two beautiful Eurasian children.
Singapore has been very kind to me: regular work, a nice home and, above all, safety. I have great affection for this multiracial beacon of light in a terribly divided world.
However, something that happened recently in United Square makes me wonder if there isn't still a shadow to Singapore's bright welcome of foreigners.
I happened to hold a door open for a middle-aged man. Now, I don't expect cringing gratitude, bunches of roses or boxes of chocolate, but when the person looks straight at you from a distance and walks up, it would be nice if he registered something. The man simply stared at me and passed by.
'You're welcome!' I said. He hesitated for a moment and looked at me.
'You're welcome!' I repeated. He muttered something I didn't catch and carried on walking. Intrigued, I followed him into a cafe nearby.
'Sorry?' I said. 'I didn't hear what you said.'
'I don't have to thank you!' he said, quite worked up.
'Well, it would have been nice,' I replied.
'I don't have to bow down to you!'
'Well, I didn't expect that! It's just social politeness to say thank you and I thought maybe you might...'
'Why should I do that to you?'
The degree of dislike in his tone shocked me and I went back to my wife and children, who were having lunch at a table nearby.
While I was eating, I could see the man out of the corner of my eye. He was waiting for his takeaway order and staring over at me, obviously planning something.
When he came out, he shouted something at me. I didn't catch it and said, 'Sorry?'
'I'm xenophobic!' he shouted quite proudly, thumping his chest.
'Pleased to meet you!' I said, 'I'm Brendan!' He waddled off.
This was an obviously articulate and well-educated man, not some small-town redneck. Yet he seemed so proud to proclaim his racial prejudice in full view of 50 lunchtime diners. It quite spoilt my appetite. I had thought this kind of reaction to foreigners here had gone out with the last millennium.
There are about 4.3 million people in Singapore. 'Four million smiles' leaves about 300,000 unaccounted for.
I wonder how many people feel like the man I met. I really do hope that when 'the world' arrives next month, it will be greeted by bright smiles and not by the dark scowl of Mr Xenophobic.
Brendan Buxton
and from the way the thign is written you sound sacarstic. the thing is he didn't asked for your help but you helped him. which is a good thing. but you chase him and hounded him for a thanks which is stupid. then you followed him all the way to the cafe which is very weird. then you become sacarstic and that's when you asked for it. -
Then you got read what other people post?Originally posted by Gedanken:*sigh* For the gazillionth time, this isn't about race. What's it take for people to understand such a simple point?
Mind you, I was having a discussion with Atobe about this afternoon, and it doesn't look like he particularly minded exploring the topic. I was done with Anycall this morning, but if he wants to keep coming back for more, is that under my control?
Yes I have my view, and my view is that Anycall is wrong. Why you try to censor me leh? So free ah you?
I where dare censor you You think too highly of yourself heh heh
You sya he right, others say he wrong. OK lor, different views. Accept it and move on.
You like must everyone agree with you. Kpkb all the time. Think you PAP ah?
People say different from you, you must tu them. No wonder some say you like kid la boy -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
PLease recap carefully and slowly before you start opening your trap again
[b]
Whoa, don't run away now, this is getting interesting.
b] Seems you were the who wanted to continue this when i clearly wanted to stop. Thank you -
So, 41 posts and counting. How's it been?Originally posted by Anycall:PLease recap carefully and slowly before you start opening your trap again Seems you were the who wanted to continue this when i clearly wanted to stop. Thank you
Mee siam never had any hum. A little off-targeting, is still a broadside uncalled for. -
I think X man is impolite n u right to say this.Originally posted by Gedanken:*sigh* For the gazillionth time, this isn't about race. What's it take for people to understand such a simple point?
Mind you, I was having a discussion with Atobe about this afternoon, and it doesn't look like he particularly minded exploring the topic. I was done with Anycall this morning, but if he wants to keep coming back for more, is that under my control?
Yes I have my view, and my view is that Anycall is wrong. Why you try to censor me leh? So free ah you?