Not A Word Of Thanks From 'Xenophobic' Man
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Nothing compared to 24251 postsOriginally posted by LazerLordz:So, 41 posts and counting. How's it been?
Mee siam never had any hum. A little off-targeting, is still a broadside uncalled for.
But this topic has gone on long enough. Its time to move on -
I think X man is definitely not right in saying this kind of stuff to Buxton. What kind of mpression it wlll give to others about Sporeans?Originally posted by Anycall:Nothing compared to 24251 posts -
Still cannot beat the acs thread.
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Very well. You said:Originally posted by Anycall:PLease recap carefully and slowly before you start opening your trap again Seems you were the who wanted to continue this when i clearly wanted to stop. Thank you 
ok, if you say so
andyep you are the only one who is right here. Whatever anyone else says is just wrong. I guess we have all seen the errors of our ways.
Seems like you were waving the white flag - certainly you weren't showing any interest in the subject matter anymore. After 16 hours of catching your breath, you re-entered the thread with:I'm just tired of arguing with a person who has that "he's always right attitude". You are just too stubborn to see other opinions.
You had your chance to cut and run. I was chatting about the matter with Atobe in the meantime and had forgotten about you, but you just had to pop in and remind me of your presence, didn't you?
I have also said that the X-man was in the wrong in doing what he did. But buxton was also wrong in making such a a big fuss about it either. Period.
Ergo, you came back and continued this and the facts bear this out. Quod erat demonstradum. I put it to you that you are the one who needs to recap carefully and slowly before you start opening your trap again. -
ok. run along now
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Fight, fight.
Over sombody else's fight. -
Waving the white flag yet again, are we? My guess is that you're going to be back for another dose. If you took your own advice and recapped the previous posts, you'll find that the majority of my time has been spent returning your serves.Originally posted by Anycall:ok. run along now
In this latest instance, you made the claim that you wanted to stop, and I showed that this was not so, and have you had anything to say in regard to the evidence that I have presented? No. I've once again called your bluff and once again you're flapping about.
Fact is that your continuously getting spanked is a case of you walking forehead first into the brick wall of logic that you already know is there.
If you want to continue making your points and having me rebut then, I'm fine with that. With all of your whinging about wanting to stop, though, doesn't it seem hypocritical that you keep coming back for one serving after another?
If you can't take the heat, you know where the kitchen door is. If you imagine you can take the heat, stick around and stop whinging about wanting to stop because, frankly, it's becoming a bad old joke.
Anyway, as usual, I'll check in tomorrow morning for another dose of comedy. I'm fairly certain you won't disappoint. -
*offers popcorn*Originally posted by charlize:Fight, fight.
Over sombody else's fight.
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The ang moh muz be laughing right now
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you want to open a can of whoop-ass on him and provide Anycall with more fuel, go right ahead.Originally posted by tqw:The ang moh muz be laughing right now
+1. Close -
Nope its okOriginally posted by LazerLordz:you want to open a can of whoop-ass on him and provide Anycall with more fuel, go right ahead.
+1. Close I will admit this gendaken has his opinion and so do others
Its his right and its a free country
But I think he could chill some and be less sarcastic -
Forget it lor. Be the gentleman and walk away. Arguing with him no point.Originally posted by Anycall:Nope its ok I will admit this gendaken has his opinion and so do others
Its his right and its a free country
But I think he could chill some and be less sarcastic -
Gedanken, my apologies for taking a long break, as duties called and had to be attended to. It has been interesting that our views seems to co-incide up to the point where we get closer to understand the cause of this seemingly innocuous incident that has now been elevated to the point of "typical ( ? ) Singaporean Rudeness" and "basic racial ineptitude".
Originally posted by Gedanken:
"Conjecture" depends too much on guess work, which is not the case with my statement made based on the purported remarks attributed to X-Man - "I don't have to bow down to you".
Original post by Atobe:
The fact that X-Man had responded in the manner he did confirms my suspicion to this entire sorry episode as I have stated; and this is drawn from X-Man's reported remarks - "I don't have to bow down to you" - that was probably made in direct response to Buxton's body language, voice tone and pitch.
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That's conjecture, Atobe. Given that X-man already demonstrated a lack of manners, it is also entirely possible that he could have reacted in a hostile and manner to a situation that didn't call for it. There's nothing that conclusively shows that Buxton was acting superior, even though we of course cannot exclude that possibility.
This purported retort was supposedly made as a response to Buxton's seemingly audacious move in demanding a "Thank You" from X-Man for the door that was held opened by Buxton.
Granted X-Man was "seemingly" rude by not indicating his appreciation as perceived by Buxton - but we do not know the facts of the situation that transpired at that point in time - when both passed each other when the door was held open by Buxton. This is the critical moment, when something happened - eye contact or body language - caused Buxton to make his move, to chase X-Man and demanded a "Thank You"
If someone was to pursue you for an apology to an unknown "slight" that is seemingly insignificant to you, there are two possible ways in responding - (1) the petulant childlike response as you have stated of X-Man resulting in his negative reaction to the perceived insolence of Buxton; (2) a more humourously sophisticated reply that can either be genuine, or pushed saguine sarcasm".Original post by Gedanken:
The petulance in X-Man was probably aroused by the indignant feelings at the seemingly audacious and ridiculous move by Buxton in publicly pursuirng for a "Thank You".
Original post by Atobe:
What about X-Man's side of this sorry episode ?
The fact that Buxton would make a 'mountain out of a molehill' towards X-Man's unresponsiveness to an uncomplimented courteous effort from Buxton probably shook X-Man up more then necessarily.
I am not making any excuse for X-Man, as I would have felt shocked that someone will run after me, to elicit an acknowlegement of thanks for something which I thought my unexpressed appreciation was known to such a kind gesture and effort made - by someone who probably have done it as second nature without demanding acknowledgment in return.
It was definitely not Buxton's "You're welcome" remark that was the deciding factor, but it was Buxton's direct up-the-face confrontation with X-Man over a very small issue.
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I disagree, Atobe. X-man could have acted in a mature manner and acknowledged his mistake, but instead he acted like a petulant child and escalated the matter, to the extent that even after disengaging from Buxton, he came back and started things all over again.
The manner in which Buxton had broached his demand is only drawn from his printed statement, and we do not know the actual circumstances that transpired - the body language, the language used, the tone and pitch of voice applied in his demand - which led to X-Man's retort : "I don't have to bow to you".
How else do we explain the arousing of the ire and indignant feelings in X-Man - in reaction to Buxton's actions or reactions to an incident that in X-Man's view was totally insignificant.
Could it not be perceived by X-Man that Buxton was spoiling for a fight in pushing for a "Thank You" ?
I would have left it at that - if X-Man had ignored my goodwill gesture.
Even if I was in X-Man's shoes and had simply accepted the unsolicited goodwill gesture from Buxton - (or from anyone keeping the door open for me to follow through ) - and did not express my gratitude (not even with a nod or a smile, let alone a verbal acknowledgement), I would certainly be surprised and embarrassed, if someone would chase after me, demand a gesture of expressed appreciation, and made with an overbearing tone of teaching me some etiquette.
My reaction will be as spelled out in the two possible ways as stated in the preceding reply.Quoted by Gedanken:
We will never know, as this time it will depend on conjecture of his unstated thoughts buried in his own consciousness or otherwise.
Originally posted by Atobe:
By writing to the ST Forum, is Buxton perhaps seeking redress in gaining public sympathy in which he felt peeved with the outcome of an unfinished confrontation ?
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Perhaps, but it's equally possible that he is simply pointing out a social issue that he sees for for the public to pay attention to.
Continued below -
continuing second half:-
Quoted by Gedanken:
Yes, English is not the 'mother tongue' amongst even the most fluent English speakers from the English educated Singaporeans.
Original post by Atobe:
As third parties, we have only Buxton printed views to go by, and it is based on Buxton's version that we learn of X-Man ability to pronounce clearly the word xenophobic - said so clearly for Buxton to understand and presumably without any excited Asian accented stuttering, and through the heated emotion of being confronted over a small issue.
This is a remarkable achievement on the part of X-Man who is a Singaporean, and whose mother tongue is not English.
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That's not quite accurate, is it? Being Singaporean, X-man's mother tongue may not be English, but since it's so commonly spoken, why shouldn't we expect him to be realistically able to pronounce "xenophobic"?
Even in the most calm circumstances, there are already instances in which one will struggle to find the most poignant word to express exactly the thoughts and feelings within oneself.
Can we expect any Singaporean to use this "technical word" - (not in any engineering sense ) - "Xenophobic" and in the circumstances of a confrontation in a public place ?
This "technical word" is normally part of a professional lexicon from psychologist, psychiatrists, or some medical professions - and possible probability in the vocabulary of poets and verbal artistes.
Unless X-Man is from such background, I will find it hard to believe that such a word will come forth from him, and spoken in clear pronunciation to be understood by Buxton - without any Asian accent, or slurred stuttering caused by heightened adrenalin from a confrontational excitement.Quoted by Gedanken
Unfortunately, the first question one need to ask :- is it Buxton's business to teach X-Man some social etiquette, and from an event which itself is an insignificant non-issue at that ?
Original post by Atobe:
You are definitely correct, and I sense a certain degree of inferiority and superiority on both sides - X-Man reasserting his own superiority in being made inferior by the audacious and condescending attempt by Buxton to teach some manners. A "kwai loh" boosted by his own sense of superior righteousness in etiquette correctness in trying to teach an Asian about courtesy - in Public ?
"Extreme Racism" aside, there exist fixxed attitudes of one race towards another even in this Twenty-First Century; and although not vividly expressed - as in Buxton's printed expose - one's perception towards another behaviour can be colored by one's innate values and opinions towards others.
Will Buxton have taken the trouble to write such an expose to the national paper in his original place of domicile - over similar incidents encountered with his own country men ?
Will his community have taken note of such a mundane incident that probably occur countless times on a daily basis ?
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The key issue here is X-man's lack of manners - after all, this is how the incident started. How he felt about it and what other issues he associated with it are driven by nobody besides himself. He apparently turned an issue about manners into a racial one, and from the looks of it, it was simply to draw attention away from his lack of manners. I'd read that as him being simply irresponsible and childish.
As for what Buxton would have done in country of origin, who knows? He certainly seems vocal enough, and in countries where speaking one's mind is encouraged, it's entirely possible he could have done exactly the same thing. Chances are that someone would call him petty, but we don't have enough information to determine if that would have stopped him.
It takes two hands to clap to make some sound, and it will also take two hands to clasp in friendly handshake to admit each other's mistaken perception and judgment, and submit to themselves to humility that will help prevent this matter from dragging on further.
There is sufficient evidence in Buxton's statements made to the ST Forum that reveal his position in pursuing the matter in the manner which he had made; but we have no way to understand the issue from the other side of the coin - which is X-Man's position.
From the various key statements purported to be made by X-Man and the statements attributed to Buxton, that is enough to make some intelligent speculation to determine the events that had occurred.
In my worksheet, it is not pretty for Buxton - as much as X-Man is to be blamed for the present sitatuon - and I will hold Buxton responsible for pursuing his own agenda in public, which caused unprovoked alarm and offense to X-Man -
this could be viewed in different context. the ang moh was imposing his sort of 'western civilization' and what he believes to be good modern etiquette. unfortunately, interpretations may not be universal. he was expecting something 'reciprocal' and he belives this to be a matter of his rights. in pursuing the matter, he also wants to examine his own fit or sense of belongingness. as usual he will be viewed as making a mountain out of a molehill, as this is not the first case and anything requring predictive responses is so outdated. and if it was truely a kind gesture, it should not be conditional or require any forms of acknowledgement. this is evident even in some cultures where people are thought to be very courteous like the thais. e.g. old folks and monks are treated with great reverence, so any youngster greeting an old man or holding a door for them does not expect any nod of the head or even a word of thanks. these are ingrained 'systems' in place that makes different societies unique. on the other hand, it shows that some singaporeans amongst us are probably evolving their own individuality, or asserting their cultural identity whatever that may be, but it is definitely not a case of being xenophobic. e.g. most are just too cowardly as the govt constantly drums into them the seriousness of race relations. sometimes, it is just being plain tired. in such tiny red dot with so many FT, who isnt? just take a look at the cram and smelly conditions of the mrt during rush hours, do you honestly have to treat everyone with an 'xcuse me' or 'sorry' when you bump into them? a nonchalent or rojak response to confuse is better.Originally posted by Rock^Star:That Buxton ang-moh is over zealous and does not understand our culture at all.
What is our culture? Well, most do not bother to say thank you if you have held a door for them.
That's fxxed up absolutely but I have lived with it all my life -
Originally posted by Atobe:
continuing second half:-
[color=darkred]Unfortunately, the first question one need to ask :- is it Buxton's business to teach [b]X-Man some social etiquette, and from an event which itself is an insignificant non-issue at that ?
It takes two hands to clap to make some sound, and it will also take two hands to clasp in friendly handshake to admit each other's mistaken perception and judgment, and submit to themselves to humility that will help prevent this matter from dragging on further.
There is sufficient evidence in Buxton's statements made to the ST Forum that reveal his position in pursuing the matter in the manner which he had made; but we have no way to understand the issue from the other side of the coin - which is X-Man's position.
Yeah, we only read the side of buxton. Don't know the whole story. What he wrote I am sure is more or less biased. Yet some here so sure that's the way it exactly happened. Why? Just because he ang moh? So he must be the morally correct one ah?
I also share the view that each country got own identity and flavour. How can he say its wrong for anyone not to do anything the way he is used to from where he came?
Even if it's white, doen't mean it's right ok?
Just like what we have running our lives 
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Well Atobe, aren't we getting ahead of ourselves here? From Buxton's description of the incident, he did not in fact follow X-man looking for an apology, he went to find out what X-man muttered. This may seem like a trivial point, but it does change the setting because it shifts the focus from what Buxton to what drove X-man's behaviour.Originally posted by Atobe:
"Conjecture" depends too much on guess work, which is not the case with my statement made based on the purported remarks attributed to X-Man - "I don't have to bow down to you".
This purported retort was supposedly made as a response to Buxton's seemingly audacious move in demanding a "Thank You" from X-Man for the door that was held opened by Buxton.
Granted X-Man was "seemingly" rude by not indicating his appreciation as perceived by Buxton - but we do not know the facts of the situation that transpired at that point in time - when both passed each other when the door was held open by Buxton. This is the critical moment, when something happened - eye contact or body language - caused Buxton to make his move, to chase X-Man and demanded a "Thank You"
If someone was to pursue you for an apology to an unknown "slight" that is seemingly insignificant to you, there are two possible ways in responding - (1) the petulant childlike response as you have stated of X-Man resulting in his negative reaction to the perceived insolence of Buxton; (2) a more humourously sophisticated reply that can either be genuine, or pushed saguine sarcasm".
As Buxton reports it, the exchange went along the lines of:
"I don't have to thank you"
"Well, it would have been nice"
"I don't have to bow down to you"
and of course, after a short break, X-man further escalated it into the "xenophobic" declaration.
Now how did an issue about failing to say thank you become a matter of xenophobia? The progression, driven exclusively by X-man, seems almost Freudian. Already being wrong, he made things worse by deliberately introducing a new problem into the situation.
As you have pointed out, there are two possible ways of having dealt with the situation. X-man obviously chose the worse option.
Atobe, you're assuming that Buxton was being overbearing, and that forms the basis of what you've said above. If he was indeed overbearing, well and good, but as you have acknowledged, we don't know that he was for sure. If he wasn't overbearing, then X-man's behaviour was a particularly immature reaction to a situation that he should have been embarrassed instead of indignant about.Originally posted by Atobe:The petulance in X-Man was probably aroused by the indignant feelings at the seemingly audacious and ridiculous move by Buxton in publicly pursuirng for a "Thank You".
The manner in which Buxton had broached his demand is only drawn from his printed statement, and we do not know the actual circumstances that transpired - the body language, the language used, the tone and pitch of voice applied in his demand - which led to X-Man's retort : "I don't have to bow to you".
How else do we explain the arousing of the ire and indignant feelings in X-Man - in reaction to Buxton's actions or reactions to an incident that in X-Man's view was totally insignificant.
Could it not be perceived by X-Man that Buxton was spoiling for a fight in pushing for a "Thank You" ?
I would have left it at that - if X-Man had ignored my goodwill gesture.
Even if I was in X-Man's shoes and had simply accepted the unsolicited goodwill gesture from Buxton - (or from anyone keeping the door open for me to follow through ) - and did not express my gratitude (not even with a nod or a smile, let alone a verbal acknowledgement), I would certainly be surprised and embarrassed, if someone would chase after me, demand a gesture of expressed appreciation, and made with an overbearing tone of teaching me some etiquette.
My reaction will be as spelled out in the two possible ways as stated in the preceding reply.
Certainly "xenophobia" would not be an everyday term, but I don't think that we can reasonably extrapolate that to an assumption that it is exclusive to certain professions or levels of education.Originally posted by Atobe:Yes, English is not the 'mother tongue' amongst even the most fluent English speakers from the English educated Singaporeans.
Even in the most calm circumstances, there are already instances in which one will struggle to find the most poignant word to express exactly the thoughts and feelings within oneself.
Can we expect any Singaporean to use this "technical word" - (not in any engineering sense ) - "Xenophobic" and in the circumstances of a confrontation in a public place ?
This "technical word" is normally part of a professional lexicon from psychologist, psychiatrists, or some medical professions - and possible probability in the vocabulary of poets and verbal artistes.
Unless X-Man is from such background, I will find it hard to believe that such a word will come forth from him, and spoken in clear pronunciation to be understood by Buxton - without any Asian accent, or slurred stuttering caused by heightened adrenalin from a confrontational excitement.
On top of that, use of such a word would fit in perfectly with X-man's wish to be a smartarse, wouldn't it?
That's a matter of interpretation, isn't it? Was Buxton's intention to teach X-man manners, or was it to object to X-man's lack thereof? If it's the latter, it's not a case of Buxton taking a superior position - it's a case of him standing up for himself.Originally posted by Atobe:Unfortunately, the first question one need to ask :- is it Buxton's business to teach X-Man some social etiquette, and from an event which itself is an insignificant non-issue at that ?
It takes two hands to clap to make some sound, and it will also take two hands to clasp in friendly handshake to admit each other's mistaken perception and judgment, and submit to themselves to humility that will help prevent this matter from dragging on further.
There is sufficient evidence in Buxton's statements made to the ST Forum that reveal his position in pursuing the matter in the manner which he had made; but we have no way to understand the issue from the other side of the coin - which is X-Man's position.
From the various key statements purported to be made by X-Man and the statements attributed to Buxton, that is enough to make some intelligent speculation to determine the events that had occurred.
In my worksheet, it is not pretty for Buxton - as much as X-Man is to be blamed for the present sitatuon - and I will hold Buxton responsible for pursuing his own agenda in public, which caused unprovoked alarm and offense to X-Man -
So guys and girls, the next time someone does not say "thanks" when you hold the door open or give up your seat, do run after that person and say "you're welcome".
And if YOU are the "rude" person, BEWARE!
Good grief, what is the world coming to? -
Don't know what you have been reading, but certainly Atobe and I, on each side of the argument, acknowledge that not all the facts are there and that we're going with what's plausible.Originally posted by tqw:Yet some here so sure that's the way it exactly happened. -
Alternatively, possums, grow up, develop some manners and learn to say thanks. Much simpler, isn't it?Originally posted by sourketchup:So guys and girls, the next time someone does not say "thanks" when you hold the door open or give up your seat, do run after that person and say "you're welcome".
And if YOU are the "rude" person, BEWARE!
Good grief, what is the world coming to?
A simple matter of manners becomes a racial issue. Good grief, what is the world coming to? -
So just because there was no "thanks" for one act of holding the door open, one should hound and harass and demand one?Originally posted by Gedanken:Alternatively, possums, grow up, develop some manners and learn to say thanks. Much simpler, isn't it?
A simple matter of manners becomes a racial issue. Good grief, what is the world coming to?
Anyway, I think you should let this drop, it has gone on long enough. -
If you think's it's gone on long enough, why are you keeping it going by posting? Isn't that self-contradictory?Originally posted by sourketchup:So just because there was no "thanks" for one act of holding the door open, one should hound and harass and demand one?
Anyway, I think you should let this drop, it has gone on long enough.
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As another poster has put it, cool it man.Originally posted by Gedanken:If you think's it's gone on long enough, why are you keeping it going by posting? Isn't that self-contradictory? -
There's nothing to cool, ketchup. I'm just saying that it's illogical to pronounce that something's gone on long enough and continuing to post about it at the same time.
Besides, Atobe and I go a fair way back in having long (but friendly) discussions about issues. If anybody else thinks that it's excessive, they're free to stop reading, aren't they? -
Hey dood, you really got attitude problem leh. Every post that don't share your view sure get some sarcastic remark. Some want to stop, you also must have the last snide remark.Originally posted by Gedanken:If you think's it's gone on long enough, why are you keeping it going by posting? Isn't that self-contradictory?
Think you are our saviour? Ride around on your high horse looking down on everyone? I think that make you just the same pompus ass as that buxton.
What makes you so special that gives you the right to be sarcastic? You are rich? You had a very good education? Your parents so well educated that's why you like that ? You were a white horse in the army?
You are simi lan? Lan lan you also only got one like the rest
Don't think your england a little more powderful then do around ya ya ok.
Singlish is just a flavour of our country. We know how to use proper english too.
If you can't express your views with some measure of respect for others, while keeping in accordance with the topic at hand, I really do suggest you don't express any at all. Have a good day. And oh yes, THANK YOU