Influx of foreigners a threat to our National Identity?
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Fatum,Originally posted by Fatum:how much do you think that 2 years of a man's life, from his golden decade ... is worth ? ... $5000 ? ... or $70000 ? ....
if say, australia or canada, tax immigrants heavily, because you can't quite expect most immigrants to take up arms for their adopted countries, would you still want to go there ? ....
the question we should be asking ourselves is this: how did we get to this stage, where people are asking what's in it for ME, before I serve MY COUNTRY ? .... why so many people don't feel a sense of belonging to this land ... I'll be glad to take any monetary incentives of course
..... but I don't think a dollar and cents solution is the answer (this another aspect of the singaporean (garbarment) psyche that's flawed ... we throw money at a problem and expect it to go away ....
You are quite right that throwing money at a problem will not make it go away completely .... but it will become a less significant issue. It resolves the question of people who are trying to rip off Singaporeans' sweat and hard work, enjoy our security, do not suffer our sweat, tears, blood, injuries and disabilities during service. It adequately compensates Singaporean male citizens involve in NS in the absence of a Veteran Affairs type bureaucacy that advocates and establishes comprehensive services and recognition of NS man in really tangible ways.
Anyway NS is not just service (duty) but a right of citizenship. We should not allow non-citizens to bear arms, we want to call all the shots in any eventuality, please tax and buy me the biggest gun and fill my kitchen with ammo, thank you.
Pay NSF and NS man what regulars are paid for their vocations/rank and experience. So starting salary for most would be about $1000 to $1500 x 50000 NSF per month. Non-citizens derive security benefits by living in our midst through our handiwork - we should pay ourselves first....
P.S. Since you already know that the government uses monetary income as the yardstick by which all citizens are judged worthy of consumption, eg. COE for cars ---- so if we pay ourselves highly, then we know for sure tangibly we are worth more!!! -
Originally posted by foomwee88:
Hey, hey, discussion only, don't get so worked up and vomit food ....
Totally agreed!!!
Wat we hve here is the country and our children are at stake ?
Fellow S'porean pls spare our future in yr thought rather than talking about all THIS $ talk lah, a typical one like the self proclaimed Doc whom had made me vomitting my food every am. If we hve these professionals ,I think our country will hve great problem in the near future
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Besides, if you don't talk money, govt talks money to you first ....
I always put monetary concerns first because if not why government raise the issue?? - aging population and no economic support (fewer workers) for the population.
I am asking why is Singapore not attractive, even for Singaporeans??
I am Singaporean, I don't have to declare myself Doc - State Medical Boards do that for me.
I am trying to enusre that I accrue as much economic, political, social, competitive advantages as a Singaporean, ie Singaporean FIRST, because I am one.
I want a Singapore where I am first in the eyes of the law and government.
The government puts money first - PRAGMATIC so I shoot back first - pay us first. -
Fully agreeable to what you pointed out.Originally posted by drawer:Even if the government bring in so many foreigners,but they also cannot manage to attract them stay on n become real Singapore citizens.Why?Becoz Singapore has become an unattractive place due to the PAP leaders dictatorial ruling.Those foreign talents wont really want to stay here for the rest of their lives n let their 2nd generations serve the stupid NS+reservist+IPPT test in here.
And besides,if they become Singapore citizens,they will face the same problem as what we Singapore citizens are facing,that is high cost of living,low wages,long working hours,dictatorship rules by Lee family etc.No one will like this stupid country.As a matter of fact,when i met newbie foreign talent,i will act as a "Singapore embassador" n tell them how lousy this country is. .......But i think he or she will realise it sooner or later during their stay in Singapore,no problem at all. 
And there is another thing i want to say,although it is off topic.During the election time,young Lee actually use "email" to command Lou Goh to help him to win the election in Hougang n Potong Pasir areas.I dont know how far is young Lee office to Lou Goh office,but if i were young Lee,i will personally go to Lou Goh office to ask him for help in the election.This show how arrogant this young Lee is.........But then again,i think there is no need to give so much respect to a "boot-licking dog"
Unfortunately, our gov doesn't believe that the bulk of FTs here and incoming are here for the Sing Dollar, not our "fabled" way of living and government.
Instead of focusing on the interests of locals, they are worshipping foreigners.
Even our god damn football team are made up of foreigners!
WTH, I can't be bothered anymore lah...sense of belonging my foot... -
read TODAY's voices column and this guy has a point:
"if native singapores are not giving birth because of financial constraints, how is it different for "New Singaporeas?" Also, they dont even have the advantage of having their mother here to look after their kids."
another nice quote from wednesday:
"Like in any family, if the children perceive that the parents lavish more attention and goodies on the talented adopted son, they are bound to feel resentment towards the favoured outsider." -
\Originally posted by www:read TODAY's voices column and this guy has a point:
"if native singapores are not giving birth because of financial constraints, how is it different for "New Singaporeas?" Also, they dont even have the advantage of having their mother here to look after their kids."
another nice quote from wednesday:
"Like in any family, if the children perceive that the parents lavish more attention and goodies on the talented adopted son, they are bound to feel resentment towards the favoured outsider."
Well, I can tell you... more crap followed by Bull Crapping is to come over this issue of FTs. -
I mean look at it....
Gov right from Day One, encouraged everyone to study and attain high academic qualifications for decades. And now, when living costs becomes so high, locals cannot afford to accept low wages and are obviously over qualified, gov turns to FTs.
People have forked out a lifetime of money to give their children a good education, and now, jobs are given to FTs just because they can accept lower salaries and that they can do more. Now isn't there a mistake somewhere along the way since 1965???
I tell you, gov clearly only care about economy for the money they will harvest - not us. -
If it's something the people of Singapore can accept it, shouldn't the PM bring his proposal to Parliament and let the MPs bring it up to the pple he/she represents, debate it and work out a solution together?
Right now, the decision is made top-down, the MPs go about explaining and we're told to accept foreigners the big-hearted way?
Please give respect to the functions of Parliament, MPs and the people of Singapore. Otherwise, affected Singaporeans will not respect you.
I can't imagine Singapore Inc or any corporation being run this way without taking big issues up at the board level.
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Give it a few more decades or so, maybe Singapore(and many other countries) will become nothing more than a transit point for people as the percentage of the local born population shrinks to less than half of the total population. The armed forces will of course shrink due to the reduction of fresh bodies. I think this may be the government's nightmare scenario, and I can see it coming true. Singapore will be like a resort where visitors stay for a while then leave. It'll be interesting to see how the government handles the change. Perhaps due to all the movement, the very concept of "country" or "nation" may become outdated.
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Who said Singapore is for singaporeans? Now they opened the flood gates for FTs, anyone can also call themselves singaporeans.
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AgreedOriginally posted by ShutterBug:Fully agreeable to what you pointed out.
Unfortunately, our gov doesn't believe that the bulk of FTs here and incoming are here for the Sing Dollar, not our "fabled" way of living and government.
Instead of focusing on the interests of locals, they are worshipping foreigners.
Even our god damn football team are made up of foreigners!
WTH, I can't be bothered anymore lah...sense of belonging my foot...
This is no longer the place LKY said it was when he was in power. Bringing in foreigners is just a stop gap measure for the moment. The gahmen should be focusing on TRUE singaporeans instead of kissing foreign asses. -
Well saidOriginally posted by av98m:Give it a few more decades or so, maybe Singapore(and many other countries) will become nothing more than a transit point for people as the percentage of the local born population shrinks to less than half of the total population. The armed forces will of course shrink due to the reduction of fresh bodies. I think this may be the government's nightmare scenario, and I can see it coming true. Singapore will be like a resort where visitors stay for a while then leave. It'll be interesting to see how the government handles the change. Perhaps due to all the movement, the very concept of "country" or "nation" may become outdated. -
That is definitely true.Originally posted by av98m:Give it a few more decades or so, maybe Singapore(and many other countries) will become nothing more than a transit point for people as the percentage of the local born population shrinks to less than half of the total population. The armed forces will of course shrink due to the reduction of fresh bodies. I think this may be the government's nightmare scenario, and I can see it coming true. Singapore will be like a resort where visitors stay for a while then leave. It'll be interesting to see how the government handles the change. Perhaps due to all the movement, the very concept of "country" or "nation" may become outdated.
In USA, the development of the population demographics predict a shift from whites to hispanics soon. This is causing some anxiety and angst as the hispanics have proven more difficult to assimilate. Despite the oft-mentioned USA as a "melting pot", in reality, the dominant culture has always been Anglo-Saxon, albeit with modifications and niches found by smaller communities. English IS the language, and the dominant class and the culture they espouse is Anglo-Saxon.
The Hispanics have however, been quite resistant to being "melted".
If such a change may happen to such a country like USA, we in Singapore had better accept that we may or will become a minority, and have to adapt. Too bad. -
interested parties may like to investigate Samuel Huntington's latest book, "Who are we, the threat to america's national identity" ... (yes, the chap who wrote "clash of civilizations " )Originally posted by sourketchup:That is definitely true.
In USA, the development of the population demographics predict a shift from whites to hispanics soon. This is causing some anxiety and angst as the hispanics have proven more difficult to assimilate. Despite the oft-mentioned USA as a "melting pot", in reality, the dominant culture has always been Anglo-Saxon, albeit with modifications and niches found by smaller communities. English IS the language, and the dominant class and the culture they espouse is Anglo-Saxon.
The Hispanics have however, been quite resistant to being "melted".
If such a change may happen to such a country like USA, we in Singapore had better accept that we may or will become a minority, and have to adapt. Too bad.
May we end up in the same shoes ? .... yes, but in a more subtle form I feel, cos the influx of immigrants we're looking at are by and large of the same ethnicities and cultures of our society's sub-components, we can't distinguish between "us and them" as easily as the US society could .... on the other hand, I'd say we have a much better chance of assimilating those immigrants than many western countries do with theirs ... cos we share common cultural and ethnic identities ...
but hey, the common irony of it all, is that most of the citizens of singapore and the US today, were descendents of immigrants .... ..... I'm sorry to spout my favourite line again, but I can never understand the venom from certain people against immigrants to singapore and at the same time talk of running off to another country ... so, you are against immigration to singapore but expect people in other countries to extend warm, welcoming arms to you ? ... somewhere along the line, your ancestors were immigrants too .... remember that ... -
I've never talked of running to another country, where did you get that from?Originally posted by Fatum:... so, you are against immigration to singapore but expect people in other countries to extend warm, welcoming arms to you ? ... somewhere along the line, your ancestors were immigrants too .... remember that ...
If you have read my posts, having immigrants into singapore is unavoidable. But the social structure of our country paradoxically may put us Singaporeans at a disadvantage compared to people coming in. And that should be rectified. -
What singapore is today was what the goverment made it out to be. Yes, the economy is doing well. But i feel it has lost for its concern for the people.Originally posted by Fatum:interested parties may like to investigate Samuel Huntington's latest book, "Who are we, the threat to america's national identity" ... (yes, the chap who wrote "clash of civilizations " )
May we end up in the same shoes ? .... yes, but in a more subtle form I feel, cos the influx of immigrants we're looking at are by and large of the same ethnicities and cultures of our society's sub-components, we can't distinguish between "us and them" as easily as the US society could .... on the other hand, I'd say we have a much better chance of assimilating those immigrants than many western countries do with theirs ... cos we share common cultural and ethnic identities ...
but hey, the common irony of it all, is that most of the citizens of singapore and the US today, were descendents of immigrants .... ..... I'm sorry to spout my favourite line again, but I can never understand the venom from certain people against immigrants to singapore and at the same time talk of running off to another country ... so, you are against immigration to singapore but expect people in other countries to extend warm, welcoming arms to you ? ... somewhere along the line, your ancestors were immigrants too .... remember that ...
Everyone here and overseas all think singapore is good in this and that. Some are true. Mostly its propaganda. In reality, its a hefty price to pay to live here. And they are doing nothing to ease the burden of the people.
All the goverment knows is make singapore a financial and investment and tourisim hub for foreigners. Not for singapreans.
Remember when LKY was in reign, he rejected the proposal for open a casino here. Citing social unrest, gambling addiction and bankruptcy.
Yet today, he made a complete 180 degrees turn and now tells that its good for the economy and tourisim. Talk about principles
Singapore was never and will never will be about singaporeans. -
wah piang ... I wasn't directing it at you lah ...Originally posted by sourketchup:I've never talked of running to another country, where did you get that from?
If you have read my posts, having immigrants into singapore is unavoidable. But the social structure of our country paradoxically may put us Singaporeans at a disadvantage compared to people coming in. And that should be rectified.
Oh, I do remember that my ancestors were immigrants. Thanks very much.
the "you" ... is to the people out there .... -
Yes our ancestors are immigrants who they migrated here with their sweat and hard work then we as a 2 nd ger served NS n Rs, this is our country now!!!Originally posted by Fatum:interested parties may like to investigate Samuel Huntington's latest book, "Who are we, the threat to america's national identity" ... (yes, the chap who wrote "clash of civilizations " )
May we end up in the same shoes ? .... yes, but in a more subtle form I feel, cos the influx of immigrants we're looking at are by and large of the same ethnicities and cultures of our society's sub-components, we can't distinguish between "us and them" as easily as the US society could .... on the other hand, I'd say we have a much better chance of assimilating those immigrants than many western countries do with theirs ... cos we share common cultural and ethnic identities ...
but hey, the common irony of it all, is that most of the citizens of singapore and the US today, were descendents of immigrants .... ..... I'm sorry to spout my favourite line again, but I can never understand the venom from certain people against immigrants to singapore and at the same time talk of running off to another country ... so, you are against immigration to singapore but expect people in other countries to extend warm, welcoming arms to you ? ... somewhere along the line, your ancestors were immigrants too .... remember that ...
We cant let these so calles FTs talk c sing song n destroy my children and their family.
U FTs! Fruk U! U r welcomed if u can contribute to our society orelse get lost!!!
I m very angry with all These GODs just following wat the gov said w/o ANALYTICAL MIND just unthinkable bunch of clowns dont know wat r our future!!! -
LKY practises realism as a form of ideology, or in the case of Singapore, uses it to depoliticise the population by shifting the emphasis in the minds of citizens from seeking human and political security by taking that problem away through thorough application and implementation of policies that encourage consumerism.Originally posted by Anycall:What singapore is today was what the goverment made it out to be. Yes, the economy is doing well. But i feel it has lost for its concern for the people.
Everyone here and overseas all think singapore is good in this and that. Some are true. Mostly its propaganda. In reality, its a hefty price to pay to live here. And they are doing nothing to ease the burden of the people.
All the goverment knows is make singapore a financial and investment and tourisim hub for foreigners. Not for singapreans.
Remember when LKY was in reign, he rejected the proposal for open a casino here. Citing social unrest, gambling addiction and bankruptcy.
Yet today, he made a complete 180 degrees turn and now tells that its good for the economy and tourisim. Talk about principles
Singapore was never and will never will be about singaporeans.
The debt trap here is not a socio-economic problem, by stretching one's thinking further slightly, it serves as a sort of brake on reaching what Maslow would call "actualisation". This is very common in urban societies, where political apathy is commonplace because most of the population is stuck at Stage 3 or 4 of the hierarchy of needs.
Pragmatism disguised as state policy, realism fed into us since independance. It has brought us to a certain stage, but that's as far as it will bring us. When you dress a donkey in a tuxedo, he is still an ass. If you install airconditioners in a horse-drawn carriage, it is still a carraige.
We have seen the demise of realpolitik in the ruins of Litani, and that's in the international context.I surely hope we don't have to see Singapore as the domestic example of social pragmatism espoused into national policymaking turned bad. -
Sorry, bro.Originally posted by Fatum:wah piang ... I wasn't directing it at you lah ...
the "you" ... is to the people out there ....
I know your point you are trying to bring up. Sure, the world is our oyster now. People move around all the time. But is IS human nature to group together, especially those from the same culture (as Samuel Huntington pointed out in his book you mentioned), and especially for us Singaporeans who went through the bonding period known as NS.
Actually, if you read a few forums from UK, they too are agonizing over the influx of Eastern Europeans. And they pride themselves on being a DEMOCRATIC country that worships liberal values. -
just wondering ... have you lived in another country for any period of time ? ... this is not leading to a put down or anything, I would just like to write about some personal observations of mine .... you know, singaporeans aren't the only one gripping about their goverment not caring for them, surprise surprise eh ? ... : ) ... it's curious to me that many people in other countries are also gripping about "govt doing nothing to ease the burden of the people" ... but the curious thing is, people in other countries do not expect the goverment to take care of them ... they do not look towards the goverment for solutions ... rugged individualism ? jaded cynicism ? ... whatever ... but Singaporeans are certainly pretty unique in that when the going gets tough, they look to the goverment .... perhaps in a way, we are a victim's of our sucess ( quotes optional for you) ... are we equipped to deal with global competition ? ... I dunno ... and I'm afraid of the answer .....Originally posted by Anycall:What singapore is today was what the goverment made it out to be. Yes, the economy is doing well. But i feel it has lost for its concern for the people.
Everyone here and overseas all think singapore is good in this and that. Some are true. Mostly its propaganda. In reality, its a hefty price to pay to live here. And they are doing nothing to ease the burden of the people.
All the goverment knows is make singapore a financial and investment and tourisim hub for foreigners. Not for singapreans.
Remember when LKY was in reign, he rejected the proposal for open a casino here. Citing social unrest, gambling addiction and bankruptcy.
Yet today, he made a complete 180 degrees turn and now tells that its good for the economy and tourisim. Talk about principles
Singapore was never and will never will be about singaporeans.
regarding the old man and his decisions, you know, I'd rather have a goverment who's flexible and are not afraid of policy U-turns according to current realities, than a stubborn, resistant goverment whom you can never move on an issue ... eh ? -
I think soon Singapore is going to acquire a new reputation. The name is the "Cuckoid Republic". Seriously, many of the throngs of Indian and PRC citizens we see here are not really interested to become citizens, they may not be even interested we our way of doing things or attempt to assimilate. Many are here just for the FREE SCHOLARSHIP and LAX IMMIGRATION POLICY. From my interaction with PRCians in my Uni, my would not even consider coming here to study let alone get PR, some were even full of complains abt us, thinking that this is their backyard. They are laughing all their way to the bank for the "Deity-like" reception provided by our govt. THE WORST IS-- MOST DUN EVEN WANT TO STAY. Thus I beg to ask, why bother to give them the scholarship? Even if we give, why can't we instill some 3 yrs compulsory, NS-like, "national education service term", to make them understand our way of life, and most importantly, weed out the "free-loaders".
Wad worries me most is, when the number of PR, our ppls from a certain nationality becomes a large force, so large that they become formidable, then these ppls may meddle with our internal affairs. For example, in my uni, the PRC students are such a large population that they can actually form an activity known as PRC-camp. They do not need to mix around with others from other nationalities as their numbers could easily fill half the lecture theatre. We also see the recent clam down on errant PDMMs. Many PDMMs can actually protest outside the embassy and the newspapers, talk-shows are filled with sympathisers, some even come out to defend their misdeeds. So much so that many ppls are thinking that we Singaporeans are actually ill-treating them. Thus, I could see a strong "PRC lobby" being form. They are going to be lke the Jewish lobby in USA, influencing the govt policies. We could expect locals views and ideas being suppressed and sacrificed for the sake of their interest. Bcos our govt treat them like god, thus their words ae going to be viewed as "scarced teachings". I also wonder why SAF wants to give the SAFOs to the PRC guy? -
That, is very much the truth.Originally posted by equlus84:I think soon Singapore is going to acquire a new reputation. The name is the "Cuckoid Republic". Seriously, many of the throngs of Indian and PRC citizens we see here are not really interested to become citizens, they may not be even interested we our way of doing things or attempt to assimilate. Many are here just for the FREE SCHOLARSHIP and LAX IMMIGRATION POLICY. From my interaction with PRCians in my Uni, my would not even consider coming here to study let alone get PR, some were even full of complains abt us, thinking that this is their backyard. They are laughing all their way to the bank for the "Deity-like" reception provided by our govt. THE WORST IS-- MOST DUN EVEN WANT TO STAY. Thus I beg to ask, why bother to give them the scholarship? Even if we give, why can't we instill some 3 yrs compulsory, NS-like, "national education service term", to make them understand our way of life, and most importantly, weed out the "free-loaders".
Wad worries me most is, when the number of PR, our ppls from a certain nationality becomes a large force, so large that they become formidable, then these ppls may meddle with our internal affairs. For example, in my uni, the PRC students are such a large population that they can actually form an activity known as PRC-camp. They do not need to mix around with others from other nationalities as their numbers could easily fill half the lecture theatre. We also see the recent clam down on errant PDMMs. Many PDMMs can actually protest outside the embassy and the newspapers, talk-shows are filled with sympathisers, some even come out to defend their misdeeds. So much so that many ppls are thinking that we Singaporeans are actually ill-treating them. Thus, I could see a strong "PRC lobby" being form. They are going to be lke the Jewish lobby in USA, influencing the govt policies. We could expect locals views and ideas being suppressed and sacrificed for the sake of their interest. Bcos our govt treat them like god, thus their words ae going to be viewed as "scarced teachings". I also wonder why SAF wants to give the SAFOs to the PRC guy?
But to liken them to the Jewish lobby in the States, could be a bit too far-fetched. I'd think there will be a change in a government before Singaporeans let that happen.
Frankly, policies these days are increasing short-term in nature. -
U should take note at least foreign professional is better than those so called foreign professional in MAlaysia brought in former PM, Dr M.Originally posted by foomwee88:Yes our ancestors are immigrants who they migrated here with their sweat and hard work then we as a 2 nd ger served NS n Rs, this is our country now!!!
We cant let these so calles FTs talk c sing song n destroy my children and their family.
U FTs! Fruk U! U r welcomed if u can contribute to our society orelse get lost!!!
I m very angry with all These GODs just following wat the gov said w/o ANALYTICAL MIND just unthinkable bunch of clowns dont know wat r our future!!! -
I have been to the states and europe for a period of time. Stayed longest in HK for three yearsOriginally posted by Fatum:just wondering ... have you lived in another country for any period of time ? ... this is not leading to a put down or anything, I would just like to write about some personal observations of mine .... you know, singaporeans aren't the only one gripping about their goverment not caring for them, surprise surprise eh ? ... : ) ... it's curious to me that many people in other countries are also gripping about "govt doing nothing to ease the burden of the people" ... but the curious thing is, people in other countries do not expect the goverment to take care of them ... they do not look towards the goverment for solutions ... rugged individualism ? jaded cynicism ? ... whatever ... but Singaporeans are certainly pretty unique in that when the going gets tough, they look to the goverment .... perhaps in a way, we are a victim's of our sucess ( quotes optional for you) ... are we equipped to deal with global competition ? ... I dunno ... and I'm afraid of the answer .....
regarding the old man and his decisions, you know, I'd rather have a goverment who's flexible and are not afraid of policy U-turns according to current realities, than a stubborn, resistant goverment whom you can never move on an issue ... eh ?
I agree that foreigners do gripe about their own goverments and their policies. Yet they have one thing that we don't. The ability to make their goverment LISTEN. And actually do something about it.
PM lee has told us to solve our own problems. But do we really have that ability to do so? From the start its always been their way or no way.
I admit the goverment has been doing well in some areas. Yet they have to improve on others. We have absolutely no say in how the country is goverened. Policies that are taken. Our views do not count.
There are areas where there are solutions that are viable to various problems. Yet they choose to ignore it instead. Because the only primary concern to them, is money. -
I agree. Encouraging FTs here is not the answer. We should be looking at how to improve singaporeans as a whole rather than implementing such stop-gap measures.Originally posted by LazerLordz:That, is very much the truth.
But to liken them to the Jewish lobby in the States, could be a bit too far-fetched. I'd think there will be a change in a government before Singaporeans let that happen.
Frankly, policies these days are increasing short-term in nature.