I do not understand why we need more foreign talent
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What do u noticed in them? It seemed the govt is saying some locals r picky in choosing work?Originally posted by 0lala:work b4 and am studying now
but everywhere i can see the woes of the people
As a local urslef, what u think of this remark? -
The woes?Originally posted by will4:What do u noticed in them? It seemed the govt is saying some locals r picky in choosing work?
As a local urslef, what u think of this remark?
The constant complain of the stagnant pay and the abscent of a pay rise when the company is obviously doing well...as said from my aunt,accountant,managing the company acounts.
So when the staff work their lives away,produtivity benifits the company as a whole or juz the higher ups to fatten their pay checks?
The good performance dosent gets credited to the staffs in terms of pay rise.
all these higher productivity in the name of their paychecks?
and as if this wasnt enuff,living standard are constantly with no thoughts of reduction by the govertment?
Solution:with the properous economy but lack of payrise to face the living cost,shld the govt at least subsidies on the utilities and other areas to lower their burden?
To a certain extend,some are fussy with their pick of jobsas sourced my uncle who works in a hospital,he mentioned back off immediately when they are unable to gaspe certain jobs.
u meant by choosy,what do u speak of?
1)A issue of ego to take up the job?
or 2)the relectant to take the job bcuz the pay dosent justify them to pay off their expense?
If we're talking abt the 1st,then self reflection is need,hence no need to elaborate.
but what abt the latter?
If the pay low pay with relations to the high living cost,it dosent make sense,whats the solutions then?
I myself can only come up of them subsidising on certain expenses
[lower bus fare,taxi fare and utilities bills]
They who receive millions shld be cracking their brains,directing the economy while we,propelled the economy.
The faith of the people lies in the govertment promises to bring abt reforms
certainly,they are not paid to throw the issue back at our face and resolved it...else why are we not paid millions -
Locals will upgrade but many a time that is a long hard struggle.Originally posted by will4:What do u noticed in them? It seemed the govt is saying some locals r picky in choosing work?
As a local urslef, what u think of this remark?
Put yourself in the shoes of a production worker. Then Costs are high in relation to another country so your company moves out. They start some courses for you to upgrade, yes you want to, but then you need time to do the upgrading. While upgrading your skills, you may not have income, then your kids need someone to look after. You start work super early, attend night classes to super late. Don't see your kids/family at all, spend a LONG time traveling from point a to b because you can't afford a car. You fell asleep in the feeder bus after a 45 min train journey, and have to spend an extra 15 mins walking 4 bus stops to your block. Its 11.39 pm at night, you only had a cracker for dinner because some customer insisted on coming into the shop at 5.59 pm when it's to be closed for dinner, and the boss "stepped out" to home to have dinner with the family. Your life sucks but they tell it's like that. And the cycle begins all over again except the cycle is shorter becuase design to production to product life is now very short.
Eg. Record players and vinyl lasted for a long time, then came cassette decks, lasted some time, then CDs, then MP3s, then Flash memory/iPODs
What sort of a life is this where the rewards are limited by gov meddling, yet you got no choice because we are affected by external events beyond our control.
That's why we need to make Singapore more the way we want how we want to live. Less population, more space for everyone - cause you only live life once - LIVE IT THE BEST YOU CAN. -
An excerpt from an ILO report:
Wage growth lags behind productivity gains:
In China labour productivity in manufacturing rose by 170 per cent between 1990 and 1999, while real wages rose by slightly less than 80 per cent. Pakistan and India experienced a decline in real manufacturing wages since 1990 – a drop of 8.5 per cent in the former and of 22 per cent in the latter. India’s wage decline occurred despite an increase in manufacturing labour productivity of over 84 per cent over the same period, indicating deterioration in workers’ livelihoods despite the increasing efficiency of their labour;
Long working hours: Large productivity gains aren’t translating into substantially shorter working hours. The top six economies in the world in terms of annual hours worked are all Asian—Bangladesh, Hong Kong (China), Malaysia, Republic of Korea , Sri Lanka, Thailand—and a large share of people work 50 hours or more a week;
(http://www.ilo.org/public/english/region/asro/bangkok/public/releases/yr2006/pr06_16.htm)
Why the government cannot allow our wages to rise? Here's one reason.
We live in Asia, arguably the most competitive environment in the world. We used to rely on increased productivity to justify higher wages (a PRC worker is cheaper but he makes plastic toys, our workers make wafer chips).
That is still true to some extent but the technology gap is closing very fast. PRC workers still make sports shoes and bras, but they are also making disk drives and computer chips. As this ILO report illustrates, their productivity is increasing extremely rapidly (170%) whilst their wages have risen only 80%. And it is not only the Chinese that are doing that, others are also increasing productivity rapidly...'Thailand saw its labour productivity growth soar between 1980-97, with the value added per person employed rising by a whopping 141 percentage points' (Source: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html).
Despite the rapid rise in productivity, catching up with newly industralized nations like Singapore, the wages of PRC workers have not risen as much and they work just as long, if not longer hours. The ILO report specifically mentioned our close neighbours Malaysia and Thailand as examples where a large share of people work 50 hours or more a week (more than six 8-hour-working days a week).
In contrast, in Singapore, 'real wage increase exceeded productivity growth in 2005 after three consecutive years (2002-2004) of lagging behind productivity growth.' ( http://www.mom.gov.sg/ProceduresAndGuidelines/LabourRelations/LabourRelationsGuidelines/National+Wages+Council+Wage+Guidelines+for+July+2006+to+June+2007.htm)
It was only in 2005 that productivity exceeded wage increase. In other words, whilst PRC and others have been increasing productivity dramatically without giving their workers more rest hours or high pay, we have paid our workers too much relative to the gains in productivity. That anomaly has been corrected in part with the variable bonus and other schemes. However, there is a constant risk that whilst the government tries to keep our wage rise slower than the rise in productivity, wages constantly and significantly lag behind productivity gains in economies like the PRC.
Of course this is not fair for workers, who work harder, upgrade their skills but still earn little. Frankly, employers don't care if you have no time for your family or that you can hardly afford to pay your mortgage and feed your wife and 2 kids. If Singaporeans demand more pay and shorter working hours without a drastic increase in productivity, they will simply move their businesses elsewhere.
So we have to capitalize on what the PRCs cannot do, and drastically increase productivity. There is no way we can make bras quicker or cheaper to beat them in productivity, so we have to make the most high-value products or provide the most high-value services possible. That's why the nation is moving into precision engineering, aerospace engineering, biomedical sciences etc.
Young people who want to have a decent life in the future must observe the trends of the global economy and react quickly. We have an advantage in industries like biomedical sciences because the West does not trust PRC with such high-value but also high-risk products. (It is one thing to make toys...if it is not well made, you can send it back. With medicine, it is quite another matter.)
But our advantage will not be for long...PRC will build up its reputation with time and when they do catch up (which they will), we must be ready to re-train ourselves for yet another high-value industry.
That is just the facts of life. We can whine about it all we want, but it will not change the facts. Our jobs will always be at risk until Thai and Chinese workers earn more than we do for the same level of productivity. Until that happens, for us to be ahead, we have no choice but to far exceed them in productivity. Our workers in low-value industries will continue to see their wages depressed by cheap foreign workers. It's either low wages or no wages at all if the business moves out to cheaper economies. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
An excerpt from an ILO report:
[b]Wage growth lags behind productivity gains:
In China labour productivity in manufacturing rose by 170 per cent between 1990 and 1999, while real wages rose by slightly less than 80 per cent. Pakistan and India experienced a decline in real manufacturing wages since 1990 – a drop of 8.5 per cent in the former and of 22 per cent in the latter. India’s wage decline occurred despite an increase in manufacturing labour productivity of over 84 per cent over the same period, indicating deterioration in workers’ livelihoods despite the increasing efficiency of their labour;
Long working hours: Large productivity gains aren’t translating into substantially shorter working hours. The top six economies in the world in terms of annual hours worked are all Asian—Bangladesh, Hong Kong (China), Malaysia, Republic of Korea , Sri Lanka, Thailand—and a large share of people work 50 hours or more a week;
(http://www.ilo.org/public/english/region/asro/bangkok/public/releases/yr2006/pr06_16.htm)
Why the government cannot allow our wages to rise? Here's one reason.
We live in Asia, arguably the most competitive environment in the world. We used to rely on increased productivity to justify higher wages (a PRC worker is cheaper but he makes plastic toys, our workers make wafer chips).
That is still true to some extent but the technology gap is closing very fast. PRC workers still make sports shoes and bras, but they are also making disk drives and computer chips. As this ILO report illustrates, their productivity is increasing extremely rapidly (170%) whilst their wages have risen only 80%. And it is not only the Chinese that are doing that, others are also increasing productivity rapidly...'Thailand saw its labour productivity growth soar between 1980-97, with the value added per person employed rising by a whopping 141 percentage points' (Source: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html).
Despite the rapid rise in productivity, catching up with newly industralized nations like Singapore, the wages of PRC workers have not risen as much and they work just as long, if not longer hours. The ILO report specifically mentioned our close neighbours Malaysia and Thailand as examples where a large share of people work 50 hours or more a week (more than six 8-hour-working days a week).
In contrast, in Singapore, 'real wage increase exceeded productivity growth in 2005 after three consecutive years (2002-2004) of lagging behind productivity growth.' ( http://www.mom.gov.sg/ProceduresAndGuidelines/LabourRelations/LabourRelationsGuidelines/National+Wages+Council+Wage+Guidelines+for+July+2006+to+June+2007.htm)
It was only in 2005 that productivity exceeded wage increase. In other words, whilst PRC and others have been increasing productivity dramatically without giving their workers more rest hours or high pay, we have paid our workers too much relative to the gains in productivity. That anomaly has been corrected in part with the variable bonus and other schemes. However, there is a constant risk that whilst the government tries to keep our wage rise slower than the rise in productivity, wages constantly and significantly lag behind productivity gains in economies like the PRC.
Of course this is not fair for workers, who work harder, upgrade their skills but still earn little. Frankly, employers don't care if you have no time for your family or that you can hardly afford to pay your mortgage and feed your wife and 2 kids. If Singaporeans demand more pay and shorter working hours without a drastic increase in productivity, they will simply move their businesses elsewhere.
So we have to capitalize on what the PRCs cannot do, and drastically increase productivity. There is no way we can make bras quicker or cheaper to beat them in productivity, so we have to make the most high-value products or provide the most high-value services possible. That's why the nation is moving into precision engineering, aerospace engineering, biomedical sciences etc.
Young people who want to have a decent life in the future must observe the trends of the global economy and react quickly. We have an advantage in industries like biomedical sciences because the West does not trust PRC with such high-value but also high-risk products. (It is one thing to make toys...if it is not well made, you can send it back. With medicine, it is quite another matter.)
But our advantage will not be for long...PRC will build up its reputation with time and when they do catch up (which they will), we must be ready to re-train ourselves for yet another high-value industry.
That is just the facts of life. We can whine about it all we want, but it will not change the facts. Our jobs will always be at risk until Thai and Chinese workers earn more than we do for the same level of productivity. Until that happens, for us to be ahead, we have no choice but to far exceed them in productivity. Our workers in low-value industries will continue to see their wages depressed by cheap foreign workers. It's either low wages or no wages at all if the business moves out to cheaper economies.
[/b]
M I hearing the wrong thg, U said PAP gov is stupid to let our salary overtakes productivity ? then the ministers ought 2 b sacked drawing million $ and do nothing!!!
May be u become minister loh,good luck!!! -
GO BACK TO UR COUNTRY TO ALL FOREIGN CLEVER OR STUPID TALENT LIVING AND WORKING HERE,YOU ARE STEALING OUR JOB AND BEBEFITS TO THE REAL BORN SINGAPOREANS WHO HAD SUFFER!!!
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u sure sounds like a heroOriginally posted by Heroboy:GO BACK TO UR COUNTRY TO ALL FOREIGN CLEVER OR STUPID TALENT LIVING AND WORKING HERE,YOU ARE STEALING OUR JOB AND BEBEFITS TO THE REAL BORN SINGAPOREANS WHO HAD SUFFER!!! 
. no offence bro 
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yea,wasnt oxford guy always with the FT?Originally posted by foomwee88:
M I hearing the wrong thg, U said PAP gov is stupid to let our salary overtakes productivity ? then the ministers ought 2 b sacked drawing million $ and do nothing!!!
May be u become minister loh,good luck!!!
why the switch in sides?lol -
Where the labour market is tight, wages can rise above productivity because employers find it difficult to find workers unless they pay more. That's why we need more FTs who are willing to work for lessOriginally posted by foomwee88:
M I hearing the wrong thg, U said PAP gov is stupid to let our salary overtakes productivity ? then the ministers ought 2 b sacked drawing million $ and do nothing!!!
May be u become minister loh,good luck!!! -
All this talk about economy and population topping up with FTs, is just a distraction...
When really... they're topping up their pool of supporters for future GEs.
I feel this is the real PURPOSE. -
Advise to all FOREIGNERS who will eventually become citizens:
Note that one day, when you are a local, and the economy here becomes sluggish - the same will happen to you; they will give priority to FTs while you left on your own. -
What O Mushroom put down, though unpalatable, cannot be disputed much.
Factories and companies are very mobile now. If we are not attractive enough, they will just move elsewhere.
But one reason why our wages need to be so high is because of our high cost of living. I don't mind having lower wages, but the cost of buying a house or sending my boys to university have to be low too. Why are they so high in Singapore? Can't they be lower? -
I think u r rite!!!Originally posted by ShutterBug:All this talk about economy and population topping up with FTs, is just a distraction...
When really... they're topping up their pool of supporters for future GEs.
I feel this is the real PURPOSE.
U c the chinese newspaper forums are flooded with the articals from these China Nationals who do not know their rights but demand this n that in Spore. They will champion whatever gov said as long as the gov gives them $$$$$ -
Wif all the reports, i am starting to have the feeling too. "Progress wif the people"
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I used to work in this org supporting a government as a out sourced service provider ... back then my colleague pay were about 1.6 to 1.8 K ...
But fast track to 8 years later now ... the same position which we used to hold are filled by FTs malaysian, indian, chinese paid from $900 to $1300 ... the our batch of locals have been forced out cos we were deemed too high pay !!! 1600 pay ! some of my ex customer complained the service of these FTs really sucks !
But cant blame the mgt ... due to competition the contract price has been almost halved .. so where do they cut their cost ... from the employee of course ... the top brass of my previous coy probably still enjoy her pay .. but not my coleague .. I know of one guy who has not been working for the lst 2 years
The evil of outsourcing . .. I do not feel we have progress with the nation more like left behind.
REad today paper and they said 2.2 million of 2.3 million of shares paid to a CEO here is too low .. the elite have it good .. not the commoner -
hello,
if i were a quitter, then ur acestor was as well. u r the grand grand grand... kid of a quitter.
to answer ur question whether i will fight for sg when sg is attached by others. my answer is, yes. do remember, in wwII, in sg, most of the local people who fighted with japs were from china.
regards,
play_n_play
Speak less and work more for singapore lah PHD.
my ancestor quit because china is corrupted bully by foreign country in early 20 century. but now china are developing so well why you quit?
you can even hold your small gun not to mention holding a M16 or SAR rifle. in war, we dont need PHD theory just one who is strong enough to hold a rifle and kill.
yes, during ww2 some of ppl who fight guerilla warfare are from china but there are more australian, indians troops then chinese from china. moreover, the japs who kill millions of chinese are century ago come from china too.
talk about origin. im proud to say i am chinese, but i dont associate myself to china, i am a singaporean. 100% locally born, breed, educate and serve my 2.5 yr f*&^king NS in singapore. who will go to war to defend this country.
i am sad you make our govt sound so cheap. but on the other hand, we finally share a common view. our govt are indeed cheapo.
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Actually, you'all are debating and arguing over a decoy issue; the real objective in FTs is enlarging their supporters - how else do you think they can stay in power every GE??
Without all these FTs over the decade, I don't think they could have gotten 66.6%. -
Originally posted by reyes:
Well said!
[b]hello,
if i were a quitter, then ur acestor was as well. u r the grand grand grand... kid of a quitter.
to answer ur question whether i will fight for sg when sg is attached by others. my answer is, yes. do remember, in wwII, in sg, most of the local people who fighted with japs were from china.
regards,
play_n_play
Speak less and work more for singapore lah PHD.
my ancestor quit because china is corrupted bully by foreign country in early 20 century. but now china are developing so well why you quit?
you can even hold your small gun not to mention holding a M16 or SAR rifle. in war, we dont need PHD theory just one who is strong enough to hold a rifle and kill.
yes, during ww2 some of ppl who fight guerilla warfare are from china but there are more australian, indians troops then chinese from china. moreover, the japs who kill millions of chinese are century ago come from china too.
talk about origin. im proud to say i am chinese, but i dont associate myself to china, i am a singaporean. 100% locally born, breed, educate and serve my 2.5 yr f*&^king NS in singapore. who will go to war to defend this country.
i am sad you make our govt sound so cheap. but on the other hand, we finally share a common view. our govt are indeed cheapo. [/b]
Dont waste time 2 talk 2 these ppls lah!They talk from their bug head and not from their heart!!! Wat he can use to flight 4 S'pore, cock may be!!!
We feel sad of this gov 2 lookg after them so much and some of our briilant child cant even enter the m faculty in NUS due to high tuition fee i.e S$18,000 per year for 5 years. -
Sadly, it is a worldwide trend, not just in Singapore. The pay for CEOs and senior management is moving in the exact opposite direction of that for the common rank and file. And the reason? Unlimited greed.Originally posted by seancannot:I used to work in this org supporting a government as a out sourced service provider ... back then my colleague pay were about 1.6 to 1.8 K ...
But fast track to 8 years later now ... the same position which we used to hold are filled by FTs malaysian, indian, chinese paid from $900 to $1300 ... the our batch of locals have been forced out cos we were deemed too high pay !!! 1600 pay ! some of my ex customer complained the service of these FTs really sucks !
But cant blame the mgt ... due to competition the contract price has been almost halved .. so where do they cut their cost ... from the employee of course ... the top brass of my previous coy probably still enjoy her pay .. but not my coleague .. I know of one guy who has not been working for the lst 2 years
The evil of outsourcing . .. I do not feel we have progress with the nation more like left behind.
REad today paper and they said 2.2 million of 2.3 million of shares paid to a CEO here is too low .. the elite have it good .. not the commoner -
The best part of it all is, are these FT really talents in anyway. You see them taking positions like contracts executive & other normal office desk bound jobs which there are planty of s'poreans out there w/o a job & are qualified for it.Originally posted by seancannot:I do not mind if they employ FT to be PM, minister or CEO if they are cheaper ... not the lower level general skill level, just look around u ... Sg now filled with Chinese in poly, U, workplace, if they also serve NS I do not mind, but they dun..
So i ask what is the criteria, it seems the government is pretty relax in this area when importing talent.
Why is the population rate going down, have they every considered how difficult is it compared to 30yrs ago to start a family. So much uncertainty, rising cost versus stagnant pay. (sometimes i seriously wonder where the obtain the statics mentioning that s'poreans are better paid now, from?)
To qualify for government subsidies & grants, gross household income shouldn't exceed $1.5K..........u must be in a real bad shape b4 they will extend that help.
I am one such example who has no intention of setting up a family here because I don't want my wife & especially my children to suffer. And its people like me who isn't contributing to re-making ourselves. Why? the above explains why
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if that opportunity arises, i will certainly move down underOriginally posted by antoh:go Aust -
If its ur point of view that this is the place for you, good for you. Be understanding to realise that many out there are not as fortunate as your are.Originally posted by play_n_play:
u dare not to face the competition...
u can only survive in sg...
i think u r already a loser already...
good luck to ur future
regards,
play_n_play
So i suggest you reserve your comments unless your one of those FT's we're mentioning here. -
Stupid comparison, US & s'pore...........think of the resources 1st, what they have & what we have before comparing.Originally posted by play_n_play:
hello,
i really dun understand y u like to blame the china chinese...is it because they are holding china passport? let's say if they are holding US passport, or they are american born chinese and grab some of the jobs in sg, r u still blaming them?
sg is a relatively fair country to everyone. without any competition or chanllenge, the country cannot improve.
do u know y US can become NO.1 in the world just in 30-40 years? the main reason is, US gov is smart enough to bring in the FT (i agreed some are lousy) to help the enconomy of US.
u r already 50 plus. I felt a bit worried and surprised it seems you did not learn anything in ur life and just know blame n blame.
btw, the forbes 40 richest people in SG. around 1/3 to 1/2 of them were not born in SG.
lastly, just let u know. i am singaprean. i am now working in MNC and we have lots of different nationals working in the company. most of the FT are very good.
regards,
play_n_play -
hello,
maybe u dun know in china, we also have the military service but not that long like urs 2.5 years.
our training weapon is AK47, not like urs M16.
sg gov is good compared to a lots of govs. not every system is perfect in this world. maybe let's say US is good, if u live there longer enough, probably u also will find lots of thing u maynot like.
my take is, if i were not suitable or i dun like the system, either i will try to change my self to adjust or i will leave the system to find another system which i can tolerate. i think it could be simliar to how to deal with the people relationship. as i know, a lots of singaporean left sg and lived in australia, also became australian. australia is well known for the discrimination. but if u feel ok then it is not a problem.
regards,
play_n_play
Speak less and work more for singapore lah PHD.
my ancestor quit because china is corrupted bully by foreign country in early 20 century. but now china are developing so well why you quit?
you can even hold your small gun not to mention holding a M16 or SAR rifle. in war, we dont need PHD theory just one who is strong enough to hold a rifle and kill.
yes, during ww2 some of ppl who fight guerilla warfare are from china but there are more australian, indians troops then chinese from china. moreover, the japs who kill millions of chinese are century ago come from china too.
talk about origin. im proud to say i am chinese, but i dont associate myself to china, i am a singaporean. 100% locally born, breed, educate and serve my 2.5 yr f*&^king NS in singapore. who will go to war to defend this country.
i am sad you make our govt sound so cheap. but on the other hand, we finally share a common view. our govt are indeed cheapo. [/b][/quote] -
hello,
i think i just take US as an example, did not compare with sg.
while maybe u could use israel as another example. why it can become the developed country in just decades even it involved many wars fighting with ARAB?
70% of the population in israel are not born in israel. does it have the resources? NO. but it take in lots of FT from Europe, Russia, US...
regards,
play_n_playOriginally posted by de_middle:Stupid comparison, US & s'pore...........think of the resources 1st, what they have & what we have before comparing.