I do not understand why we need more foreign talent
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i felt a bit disappointed to see the following message full of ugly words...
again and again...
i decided not to talk with u anymore and i felt very sorry to speak out to u now...
formwee88, GO TO THE HELL!!!
Originally posted by foomwee88:Hahaha!!! I m myself as wat I said to my family members n talked like these. who care!!!
Be honest 2 yrself!!! God will punish u if yr head does not follow yr heart!!!
shame of u!! dont khow even how many yr son needs 2 serve NS and open yr big gap!!!! my God!!! How can u be the parent like this yr child leh one n only one!!! Fruk how 2 let go!! n claimed to defence us leh!!!
Forget U !!! SG gov !!!whom I think We dont want like this lah!!! Not sith but problem only!!! -
Yes , I will go 2 hell same as u!! liar!!!Originally posted by play_n_play:i felt a bit disappointed to see the following message full of ugly words...
again and again...
i decided not to talk with u anymore and i felt very sorry to speak out to u now...
formwee88, GO TO THE HELL!!!
I dont think u r a phd degree holder!!! prove it 2 me w/ pm
I m no doubt that these r the FT with fake certificate come 2 Spore!
If I m wrong sue me!!!!dare 2 tke the challange!!!
FFFFF!!!!!!
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since u r under 18, i will not sue u...Originally posted by foomwee88:Yes , I will go 2 hell same as u!! liar!!!
I dont think u r a phd degree holder!!! prove it 2 me w/ pm
I m no doubt that these r the FT with fake certificate come 2 Spore!
If I m wrong sue me!!!!dare 2 tke the challange!!!
FFFFF!!!!!! -
hypocrisy detected.Originally posted by play_n_play:since u r under 18, i will not sue u... -
if you say is your son duty to serve NS, i assume that you are planning to stay here for the rest of your live. this is the type of people that the govt want. but many of the FTs are taking advantage of this govt FTs policies to came here and earn enough money to go elsewhere. like i said earlier, as a stepping stone. this is the root of what singaporean are angry about seeing how our govt got made use of by foreigners. and last thing that is very important. OUR GOVT ARE AFRAID OF OTHER COUNTRIES. ESPECIALLY CHINA AND AMERICA.Originally posted by play_n_play:hope ur kids won't talk like u...i am not sure if ur wife or ur kids see your speaking out the "f**", "s***", do they feel pround? ur wife have a husband full of these ugly words, ur kids have a father full of these ugly words...
btw, i dun care how many years for the NS in sg, it is my sons' duty... -
Singapore NEEDS foreign workers at all levels. Sure, those who are good enough may use Singapore as a stepping stone to work in the West, but whislt they are here, they contribute to the economy.Originally posted by freedom4ever:if you say is your son duty to serve NS, i assume that you are planning to stay here for the rest of your live. this is the type of people that the govt want. but many of the FTs are taking advantage of this govt FTs policies to came here and earn enough money to go elsewhere. like i said earlier, as a stepping stone. this is the root of what singaporean are angry about seeing how our govt got made use of by foreigners. and last thing that is very important. OUR GOVT ARE AFRAID OF OTHER COUNTRIES. ESPECIALLY CHINA AND AMERICA.
If we stop all foreign workers, our employers will suffer, our businesses will see their manpower costs increase and have to raise prices, our consumers will experience higher inflation and higher living costs and wafer fabs will move their business to China and Thailand.
If foreigners are making use of our government policies to improve their lives, we are also making use of their labour to improve ours. -
thanks for expressing what i wanted to express. it's very objective.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Singapore NEEDS foreign workers at all levels. Sure, those who are good enough may use Singapore as a stepping stone to work in the West, but whislt they are here, they contribute to the economy.
If we stop all foreign workers, our employers will suffer, our businesses will see their manpower costs increase and have to raise prices, our consumers will experience higher inflation and higher living costs and wafer fabs will move their business to China and Thailand.
If foreigners are making use of our government policies to improve their lives, we are also making use of their labour to improve ours.
hai...some singaporeans are insular in every sense of the word. -
NO, we CANNOT and SHOULD not stopp ALL foreigner workers from coming here. BUT, our gov SHOULD HAVE regulated the influx from China. Our economy is better for all the FWs and FTs, but with all the low and mid level jobs saturated by FWs from PRC, it adds on to the Income Gap problem.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Singapore NEEDS foreign workers at all levels. Sure, those who are good enough may use Singapore as a stepping stone to work in the West, but whislt they are here, they contribute to the economy.
If we stop all foreign workers, our employers will suffer, our businesses will see their manpower costs increase and have to raise prices, our consumers will experience higher inflation and higher living costs and wafer fabs will move their business to China and Thailand.
If foreigners are making use of our government policies to improve their lives, we are also making use of their labour to improve ours.
Our gov is obviously only looking at the economic level in terms of FWs' & FTs' contributions, but appear to have closed one eye to the woes of locals seeking income.
No matter local or foreign labor are used, eventually many companies will move to cheaper countries as we will inevitably become too costly to operate within. I cite fuel costs as one of the many operation costs besides land and others. So, I feel eventually, the Universal Solution of FTs will have little or no effect in supporting our economy.
If our gov does not now look into ways to make use of local manpower resources, one day when FTs no longer are effective solutions, then what?
So far the use of FTs only benefits two entities; our GOV and the EMPLOYERS.
The people???
In Cold storage - or back burnner. -
Just a mild sidetrack.
Anyone has any figures of the proportion of foreigners in our country by nationality. I have this feeling that Malaysians have been a large presence here for a long time, yet few people have been feeling too antagonistic about them. Of course, this is because of cultural reasons, they feel and many are our relatives. Yet their economic impact should be no less. -
i agree fully with you. i am sure the govt knows it too.Originally posted by ShutterBug:NO, we CANNOT and SHOULD not stopp ALL foreigner workers from coming here. BUT, our gov SHOULD HAVE regulated the influx from China. Our economy is better for all the FWs and FTs, but with all the low and mid level jobs saturated by FWs from PRC, it adds on to the Income Gap problem.
Our gov is obviously only looking at the economic level in terms of FWs' & FTs' contributions, but appear to have closed one eye to the woes of locals seeking income.
No matter local or foreign labor are used, eventually many companies will move to cheaper countries as we will inevitably become too costly to operate within. I cite fuel costs as one of the many operation costs besides land and others. So, I feel eventually, the Universal Solution of FTs will have little or no effect in supporting our economy.
If our gov does not now look into ways to make use of local manpower resources, one day when FTs no longer are effective solutions, then what?
So far the use of FTs only benefits two entities; our GOV and the EMPLOYERS.
The people???
In Cold storage - or back burnner.
but why are they still pursuing this course of action? -
excellent point... i agreed with u...Originally posted by ShutterBug:NO, we CANNOT and SHOULD not stopp ALL foreigner workers from coming here. BUT, our gov SHOULD HAVE regulated the influx from China. Our economy is better for all the FWs and FTs, but with all the low and mid level jobs saturated by FWs from PRC, it adds on to the Income Gap problem.
Our gov is obviously only looking at the economic level in terms of FWs' & FTs' contributions, but appear to have closed one eye to the woes of locals seeking income.
No matter local or foreign labor are used, eventually many companies will move to cheaper countries as we will inevitably become too costly to operate within. I cite fuel costs as one of the many operation costs besides land and others. So, I feel eventually, the Universal Solution of FTs will have little or no effect in supporting our economy.
If our gov does not now look into ways to make use of local manpower resources, one day when FTs no longer are effective solutions, then what?
So far the use of FTs only benefits two entities; our GOV and the EMPLOYERS.
The people???
In Cold storage - or back burnner. -
Actually, agreeing with me is pointless.
I mean, sadly we lack a "voice" to tell our all knowing gov what is bothering us, the local people. Then again, if we do have someone to speak on our behalf, would they be heeded??
It's like those 18th century war ships where all the slaves are rowing the large galleon below deck and they are up on decl steering the ship.
We row like mad, they just steer... -
you reap what you sow. if locals are good enough and would make do with "low and mid level jobs [currently] saturated by FWs from PRC", surely government and employers would prefer them over foreigners. the problem is some singaporeans aren't satisfied with lower than average salaries, while others are, relatively, just not up to the task. as long as foreigners possess more capabilities than locals (let's move away from the subject of PRCs' grasp of the english language because, as we know, many singaporeans are at times as incomprehensible, too), they'd be preferred over the latter, regardless of their "effectiveness". why? because it's not just about the cost of labor.Originally posted by ShutterBug:NO, we CANNOT and SHOULD not stopp ALL foreigner workers from coming here. BUT, our gov SHOULD HAVE regulated the influx from China. Our economy is better for all the FWs and FTs, but with all the low and mid level jobs saturated by FWs from PRC, it adds on to the Income Gap problem.
Our gov is obviously only looking at the economic level in terms of FWs' & FTs' contributions, but appear to have closed one eye to the woes of locals seeking income.
No matter local or foreign labor are used, eventually many companies will move to cheaper countries as we will inevitably become too costly to operate within. I cite fuel costs as one of the many operation costs besides land and others. So, I feel eventually, the Universal Solution of FTs will have little or no effect in supporting our economy.
If our gov does not now look into ways to make use of local manpower resources, one day when FTs no longer are effective solutions, then what?
So far the use of FTs only benefits two entities; our GOV and the EMPLOYERS.
The people???
In Cold storage - or back burnner. -
Surely an attraction of foreigners over Singaporeans is that they ask for less pay?Originally posted by jenn_y:you reap what you sow. if locals are good enough and would make do with "low and mid level jobs [currently] saturated by FWs from PRC", surely government and employers would prefer them over foreigners. the problem is some singaporeans aren't satisfied with lower than average salaries, while others are, relatively, just not up to the task. as long as foreigners possess more capabilities than locals (let's move away from the subject of PRCs' proficiency of the english language because, as we know, many singaporeans are as incomprehensible too at times), they'd be preferred over the latter, regardless of their "effectiveness". it's not just about the cost.
That's because they do not intend to stay on here, and the Sing dollars they are getting translates into a large sum of money when they go home. One reason some S'poreans cannot stick with lower paying jobs is because of the high cost of living here. If this is not tackled, we will never be able to compete with most foreigners.
If both are equally "good enough", the one that asks for less pay gets the job. Simple and brutal.
As for whether most foreigners are more capable than Singaporeans, well, I don't think there is an objective way to make that assessment, other than anecdotes. For every competent foreigner, someone else can recall a bumbling one. -
As such, there may come a time, when a large percentage of locals will have moved out of Singapore to neighboring countries. And when economy takes a bad dip and the FTs as well as the FWs take flight, there wouldn't be much population left, to say nothing about shortage of babies.Originally posted by sourketchup:Surely an attraction of foreigners over Singaporeans are that they ask for less pay?
That's because they do not intend to stay on here, and the Sing dollars they are getting translates into a large sum of money when they go home. One reason some S'poreans cannot stick with lower paying jobs is because of the high cost of living here. If this is not tackled, we will never be able to compete with most foreigners.
It's relative costs, and the FTs' and FWs' pursuit of our dollars.
How much better, can or could a FW/FT from PRC working as a counter assistance in a foodcourt such as Kopitiam foodcourt in some shopping centers? I've seen them, they only speak Mandarin very well and that's about it. I don't see any "better performance".
Let me say this; Singapore's service standard in retail and service related industries (such as those in food courts) are going to go further down the drain because of them.
I mean, talk about locals not being willing to move out of their comfort zones; what about these multitude of PRCs talented and untalented? Are they willing to speak English besides Mandarin?? How many times I encountered (has anyone of you) assistance in retail who simply cannot speak or understand English and has to refer me to another colleague. In HDB branch office, a very chinese lady behind the counter, could not understand what I wanted to enquire about and had to call in her supervisor.
What the hell man, how is this deemed EFFICIENT and PERFORMANCE? Simply because they flew thousands of miles here from China and accepts lower salaries? I know there are REAL talented ones here, have met and spoken to them - they are effectively billingual. They spoke Mandarin very well, and when they speak English, you can here diction in every word that has the letters 'S', 'T', and 'R'. And there is an ocean of non-talented ones out there who consistently come knocking at my company door seeking employment - I turn them down flat. I let them rattle off in Mandarin and then reply asking them in either English (proper form) or in my own mother-tongue Teochew, can you speak English? or in the case of Teochew; can you speak Teochew?
THere are also other forms of talents roaming our streets here; today I was downtown Orchard Road Wisma Atria food court for lunch. A man in his early 40s approached me attired in smart casuals and asked me if I would like to have my fortune told. I said to him in English; "I am just hungry, but not that hungry." and I walked away. -
The market will decide who is better value for the job, FT or locals. The PRC's English may be poor but the employer may feel that it does not matter because the bulk of Singaporeans speak Mandarin or that his products target Mandarin-speaking customers. He may even prefer the FT to the English-speaking Malay Singaporean. On the other hand, retail businesses that target Malay or Indian customers would be daft to employ PRCs who do not speak English.
The fact that so many businesses employ PRCs indicate that they are considered to be better value. -
heh pls, high cost of living? come to vancouver or go to london if you wanna have a taste of "high cost of living".Originally posted by sourketchup:Surely an attraction of foreigners over Singaporeans is that they ask for less pay?
That's because they do not intend to stay on here, and the Sing dollars they are getting translates into a large sum of money when they go home. One reason some S'poreans cannot stick with lower paying jobs is because of the high cost of living here. If this is not tackled, we will never be able to compete with most foreigners.
If both are equally "good enough", the one that asks for less pay gets the job. Simple and brutal.
As for whether most foreigners are more capable than Singaporeans, well, I don't think there is an objective way to make that assessment, other than anecdotes. For every competent foreigner, someone else can recall a bumbling one.
high cost of living simply originates from singaporeans' spending extravagence. consider the number of people buying a flat when their financial situation only allow them to rent one, the number of teens buying branded items, eating away their parents' income... these are just two among many others (that i cannot think of, being away from singapore for quite a while). that's "high cost of living" for you. if you ask me, i'd think that singapore's cost of living is pretty okay. not very high, not very low; somewhat just right. also, government taxes a reasonable amount (canada has an income tax of 40% in case you do not know... about half of one's income is already gone when it reaches his/her bank account).
although you're right in saying that sin dollar converts into a large amount of their home currency, you must note also note that they are currently living in singapore, thus spending their money here. ok, they have families in their home country - then they have to support themselves and their family - more expense. if foreigners can support themselves + their families overseas with lower salaries... then why not singaporeans??? then you might say singaporeans have their family here too...............in the first place, why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?
high cost of living? more like making your living high-cost. -
I am sure that there are S'poreans who like to splurge on luxury or higher-end items. There are also those who spend lots of money on more expensive cars that they can ill-afford. But to label the many Singaporeans who are just trying to survive day-to-day with that kind of description is not right. As Andy Ho pointed out in his recent article in the Straits Times, there is a large group of Singaporeans that are caught now, who do not have the necessary skills and knowledge to earn middle-class incomes, and yet cannot survive on the low amounts of money being paid to many foreigners.Originally posted by jenn_y:heh pls, high cost of living? come to vancouver or go to london if you wanna have a taste of "high cost of living".
high cost of living simply originates from singaporeans' spending extravagence. consider the number of people buying a flat when their financial situation only allow them to rent one, the number of teens buying branded items, eating away their parents' income... these are just two among many others (that i cannot think of, being away from singapore for quite a while). that's "high cost of living" for you. if you ask me, i'd think that singapore's cost of living is pretty okay. not very high, not very low; somewhat just right. also, government taxes a reasonable amount (canada has an income tax of 40% in case you do not know... about half of one's income is already gone when it reaches his/her bank account).
although you're right in saying that sin dollar converts into a large amount of their home currency, you must note also note that they are currently living in singapore, thus spending their money here. ok, they have families in their home country - then they have to support themselves and their family - more expense. if foreigners can support themselves + their families overseas with lower salaries... then why not singaporeans??? then you might say singaporeans have their family here too...............in the first place, why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?
high cost of living? more like making your living high-cost.
And as you rightly pointed out, it is difficult to start a family in Singapore with the pay given out to foreigners. Humans would like to have families, not decide that "why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?" and forget about it. And just to untangle your thoughts, foreigners CAN work here and support a family back home because the costs of living back in their homelands are so much lower. Why do you think thousands of Indonesians and Filipino ladies come here to work as maids? By your logic, Singaporean women should be able to work as maids too, having the same pay as the Indonesians and Filipinos as long as they rent flats and do not spend extravagantly.
Many foreigners do not mind the low pay while living here because they are only here temporarily.
And thanks for bringing up cities like London. The English can have large numbers of immigrants there because those who cannot make it in the big cities can retreat to the smaller cities and towns. And don't bring taxes into this. I am not sure about income tax rates in Canada, but I do know that in the UK, tax rates can be up to 50%. Taxes may be higher in UK or Canada, but residents do not have to think about medical expenses and tertiary education. We have low taxes here, but everything has to be paid for ourselves.
You have indeed been away from Singapore for quite a while. Go talk to the new unemployed and understand their situation.
Having said ALL that, I think foreigners have to be allowed in, in principle, but the details have to be fine-tuned. -
Very well said.Originally posted by sourketchup:I am sure that there are S'poreans who like to splurge on luxury or higher-end items. There are also those who spend lots of money on more expensive cars that they can ill-afford. But to label the many Singaporeans who are just trying to survive day-to-day with that kind of description is not right. As Andy Ho pointed out in his recent article in the Straits Times, there is a large group of Singaporeans that are caught now, who do not have the necessary skills and knowledge to earn middle-class incomes, and yet cannot survive on the low amounts of money being paid to many foreigners.
And as you rightly pointed out, it is difficult to start a family in Singapore with the pay given out to foreigners. Humans would like to have families, not decide that "why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?" and forget about it. And just to untangle your thoughts, foreigners CAN work here and support a family back home because the costs of living back in their homelands are so much lower. Why do you think thousands of Indonesians and Filipino ladies come here to work as maids? By your logic, Singaporean women should be able to work as maids too, having the same pay as the Indonesians and Filipinos as long as they rent flats and do not spend extravagantly.
The foreigners here can have low pay while living here because they are only here temporarily.
And thanks for bringing up cities like London. The English can have large numbers of immigrants there because those who cannot make it in the big cities can retreat to the smaller cities and towns. And don't bring taxes into this. I am not sure about income tax rates in Canada, but I do know that in the UK, tax rates can be up to 50%. Taxes may be higher in UK or Canada, but residents do not have to think about medical expenses and tertiary education. We have low taxes here, but everything has to be paid for ourselves.
You have indeed been away from Singapore for quite a while. Go talk to the new unemployed and understand their situation.
Having said ALL that, I think foreigners have to be allowed in, in principle, but the details have to be fine-tuned.
Thanks for saving me the time for such a lengthy and detailed reply. -
i don't exactly know your stand on this issue (haven't read the last few pages of this thread) but that was a rather stringent response, though it tasted a bit like sour ketchup. i agree with you the part about temporary stay, but i suppose you were joking when you said 'Humans would like to have families, not decide that "why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?" and forget about it.'Originally posted by sourketchup:I am sure that there are S'poreans who like to splurge on luxury or higher-end items. There are also those who spend lots of money on more expensive cars that they can ill-afford. But to label the many Singaporeans who are just trying to survive day-to-day with that kind of description is not right. As Andy Ho pointed out in his recent article in the Straits Times, there is a large group of Singaporeans that are caught now, who do not have the necessary skills and knowledge to earn middle-class incomes, and yet cannot survive on the low amounts of money being paid to many foreigners.
And as you rightly pointed out, it is difficult to start a family in Singapore with the pay given out to foreigners. Humans would like to have families, not decide that "why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?" and forget about it. And just to untangle your thoughts, foreigners CAN work here and support a family back home because the costs of living back in their homelands are so much lower. Why do you think thousands of Indonesians and Filipino ladies come here to work as maids? By your logic, Singaporean women should be able to work as maids too, having the same pay as the Indonesians and Filipinos as long as they rent flats and do not spend extravagantly.
The foreigners here can have low pay while living here because they are only here temporarily.
And thanks for bringing up cities like London. The English can have large numbers of immigrants there because those who cannot make it in the big cities can retreat to the smaller cities and towns. And don't bring taxes into this. I am not sure about income tax rates in Canada, but I do know that in the UK, tax rates can be up to 50%. Taxes may be higher in UK or Canada, but residents do not have to think about medical expenses and tertiary education. We have low taxes here, but everything has to be paid for ourselves.
You have indeed been away from Singapore for quite a while. Go talk to the new unemployed and understand their situation.
Having said ALL that, I think foreigners have to be allowed in, in principle, but the details have to be fine-tuned.
i don't get why singaporeans "cannot survive on the low amounts of money being paid to many foreigners" tho - hope you can enlighten me on that
btw, we still do pay for medical expenses, albeit a smaller amount, and we pay the total cost of our tertiary education. -
Sorry if I sounded more stern that I wanted to, no offence meant.Originally posted by jenn_y:i don't exactly know your stand on this issue (haven't read the last few pages of this thread) but that was a rather stringent response, though it tasted a bit like sour ketchup. i agree with you the part about temporary stay, but i suppose you were joking when you said 'Humans would like to have families, not decide that "why start a family when you have no job, no money, no financial planning?" and forget about it.'
i don't get why singaporeans "cannot survive on the low amounts of money being paid to many foreigners" tho - hope you can enlighten me on that
btw, we still do pay for medical expenses, albeit a smaller amount, and we pay the total cost of our tertiary education.
The costs of living here are not inconsiderable. Flats take years to pay for (assuming you are not retrenched), transport costs can take up a chunk of someone's pay and we have not taken into account of taking care of our children and of our parents. Tertiary education is not cheap, and don't forget we have to save for our old age.
I think the government is still right to bring in foreigners. Big MNCs would go elsewhere for cheap labour easily if it is not available in Singapore. Some foreigners do have knowledge or skills we don't have. And people who can move from country to country tend (I use the word "tend" ) to be more energetic and ambitious.
Presume you are in Canada? How's life there? -
2.5 yrs of NS and many yrs of reservist.
How to compensate this? -
yeah. life's pretty dull after a year (in vancouver). now that i've distant myself from singapore a lil (or a lot), i think singapore's a really diplomatic communist country. hehe.Originally posted by sourketchup:Sorry if I sounded more stern that I wanted to, no offence meant.
The costs of living here are not inconsiderable. Flats take years to pay for (assuming you are not retrenched), transport costs can take up a chunk of someone's pay and we have not taken into account of taking care of our children and of our parents. Tertiary education is not cheap, and don't forget we have to save for our old age.
I think the government is still right to bring in foreigners. Big MNCs would go elsewhere for cheap labour easily if it is not available in Singapore. Some foreigners do have knowledge or skills we don't have. And people who can move from country to country tend (I use the word "tend" ) to be more energetic and ambitious.
Presume you are in Canada? How's life there?
actually i dun really like politics lah, but the threadstarter's title seem to be one of the many other that is suggestive of discrimination towards foreigners... once a foreigner myself (tho assimilated into the local culture at a very young age), i just felt i had to make a voice... though it's apparent that i'm quite a complete idiot for politics. many singaporeans just...discriminate foreigners just because they are innately different and somehow think that they're superior just because they're standing on their own land. it's one thing to be patriotic but another to be racist.
but it's good to see that there are singaporeans who do use their brains when making judgments. -
did u find a job in canada especially in vancouver, a tourist city?
i have been there several times. basically i think canada is only good for kid or retirement.Originally posted by jenn_y:yeah. life's pretty dull after a year (in vancouver). now that i've distant myself from singapore a lil (or a lot), i think singapore's a really diplomatic communist country. hehe.
actually i dun really like politics lah, but the threadstarter's title seem to be one of the many other that is suggestive of discrimination towards foreigners... once a foreigner myself (tho assimilated into the local culture at a very young age), i just felt i had to make a voice... though it's apparent that i'm quite a complete idiot for politics. many singaporeans just...discriminate foreigners just because they are innately different and somehow think that they're superior just because they're standing on their own land. it's one thing to be patriotic but another to be racist.
but it's good to see that there are singaporeans who do use their brains when making judgments. -
No way to compensate it. What's lost is lost. Maybe the NS bonus will lighten the pain. Only thing you can do is to cut your loses. Adapt to the changing environment.Originally posted by PoRen:2.5 yrs of NS and many yrs of reservist.
How to compensate this?