Lee Kuan Yew warns of army intervention
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\\Originally posted by outofcontrol225:Are you sure we can't know the accounts or you never try to find? Or you cannot find? Then later after you find, you say that the government is corrupted and it is not accurate.
How much Lee family spent on credit cards on our country accts!!!
How much Lees' family wealth worth???
How much we lost in overseas ventures???
Pls answer!!! -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Sighs.
Don't put words in my mouth, I was talking about SGD exchange rate regime (managed floating). Nothing regarding USD exchange rate (freely floating), which is entirely different.
Think you should go read up on [b]"Exchange Rates and Open Economy Macroeconomics"
You can only make one sentence comments, no elaborations of your opinions, goes to show what kind of level you belong to.
I have no time with half-wits like you, who enjoys making one liner comments, even baboons have more sophisticated language skills than you.
Enjoy yourself.
Good bye.
[/b]
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Is there such a thing as a freak result in an election?Originally posted by outofcontrol225:Yes it does. It's just that it's a freak result if the people accidentally voted in a party just because they dislike the PAP. I know people who actually told me they voted for the opposition because they don't want the PAP to be too arrogant and wanted some pressure on them. Certainly, they didn't vote for the opposition because of their abilities. If everybody thought like that and the SDP gets voted in, there's gonna be trouble. So, which of the current parties do you think should run Singapore?
If the people who voted against the ruling party did so out of spite, does it make their vote any less powerful?
Are you so sure the people in Aljunied GRC didn't vote the alternatives because for once, there was a reasonable alternative to counter the PAP machine?
Why is it when people speak of alternatives and the dangers of allowing them to hold office, they speak only of the SDP?
What about the SDA and WP? Are they transparent in such discussions simply because they are the political alternatives that may work?
We have only seen one party in action since it's inception. As for the alternatives, even LKY had to acknowledge the qualities of 'opposition' candidates in the early days like the late David Marshall, and then promptly offered him the post of ambassador to France. Was it an offer made in admiration? Or simply a ploy to ferret a potentially dangerous adversary away from the political scene?Originally posted by outofcontrol225:I wonder which party is very capapble? Well, the Gomez issue certainly showed that some of the people in these parties are not very honest. I'm not sure why people keep talking about the reserves. Here: http://www.international.ucla.edu/asia/article.asp?parentid=5299
With one of the most transparent and least corrupt public sectors in the world, I wonder what the fuss is all about?
Having a disproportionate playing field in obvious favour to the Ruling Party doesn't help the political scene either. With a propaganda machine that has stifled the people into becoming apathetic, and blatant defamation suits being tossed about by Lee Senior and Lee Junior, can we truly have a voice to even rant about basic issues?
Yes the gomez issue was one of integrity. But if the Ruling Party had many campaign issues, as Ng Eng Hen and Wong Kan Seng claimed in their rallies prior to the Gomez incident, why did the entire party suddenly adjust course and focus on destroying Gomez? Did they not forget their original objectives? And have we not seen these all too familiar cases of sidetracking before? Tang Liang Hong, JBJ, Chee Soon Juan, Francis Seow etc. All sued till their pants dropped.
As for least corrupt, how would anyone know what that means, with all the seals and doors leading to transparency closely guarded by the same watchdogs who have sole entry? All this brings the question: Who monitors the watchers of the watchers? -
i dun think a military coup might be neccessary because of the country stability. no one will be adaptable to any changes as we can see so as an sinagporean . So why is there a need for any military coup?
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Please don't expect other people to answer for you. If you can't be bothered to find it yourself, don't assume the government is corrupt.Originally posted by foomwee88:\\
How much Lee family spent on credit cards on our country accts!!!
How much Lees' family wealth worth???
How much we lost in overseas ventures???
Pls answer!!!
But is this the barometer for government corruption? How much did Mahathir earn? How much is his wealth worth? How much does George Bush earn? How much is his wealth worth? Pls answer!!! -
Is there such a thing as a freak result in an election?
Nobody said that the vote is less powerful. Who said that? I'm just giving you a definition of what freak result means. If another party is voted in, they will still run the government. No problems with that.
If the people who voted against the ruling party did so out of spite, does it make their vote any less powerful?
Are you so sure the people in Aljunied GRC didn't vote the alternatives because for once, there was a reasonable alternative to counter the PAP machine?
Why is it when people speak of alternatives and the dangers of allowing them to hold office, they speak only of the SDP?
What about the SDA and WP? Are they transparent in such discussions simply because they are the political alternatives that may work?
Why do I speak of SDP? Because they are the best example of a lousy party. Do note that I purposely asked which other parties are capable to run our country. I'm sure the Aljunied GRC people found that the other party is better. That's why they are now run by the opposition party. So, does this mean that they should run the country too? -
We have only seen one party in action since it's inception. As for the alternatives, even LKY had to acknowledge the qualities of 'opposition' candidates in the early days like the late David Marshall, and then promptly offered him the post of ambassador to France. Was it an offer made in admiration? Or simply a ploy to ferret a potentially dangerous adversary away from the political scene?
I think that Gomez should have been sacked. If it had happened the other way round and it's the opposition who had the evidence, some heads would have rolled. Anyway, I don't think the government destroyed Gomez. What did they do to him? But it's likely that in politics, there are some suppression going on.
Having a disproportionate playing field in obvious favour to the Ruling Party doesn't help the political scene either. With a propaganda machine that has stifled the people into becoming apathetic, and blatant defamation suits being tossed about by Lee Senior and Lee Junior, can we truly have a voice to even rant about basic issues?
Yes the gomez issue was one of integrity. But if the Ruling Party had many campaign issues, as Ng Eng Hen and Wong Kan Seng claimed in their rallies prior to the Gomez incident, why did the entire party suddenly adjust course and focus on destroying Gomez? Did they not forget their original objectives? And have we not seen these all too familiar cases of sidetracking before? Tang Liang Hong, JBJ, Chee Soon Juan, Francis Seow etc. All sued till their pants dropped.
As for least corrupt, how would anyone know what that means, with all the seals and doors leading to transparency closely guarded by the same watchdogs who have sole entry? All this brings the question: Who monitors the watchers of the watchers?
I do not know. But if you have questions about the reliabiltiy of the report, then you should question the people who made them. I am not an expert in the field of public sector transparency. But I believe if the organisation had no proper means of finding out whether the government is transparent, then they wouldn't rank Singapore at number 5, would they? They would either not rank Singapore at all or would rank us pretty lowly. -
Where did i say Lees family is corrupted??? who knows???Originally posted by outofcontrol225:Please don't expect other people to answer for you. If you can't be bothered to find it yourself, don't assume the government is corrupt.
But is this the barometer for government corruption? How much did Mahathir earn? How much is his wealth worth? How much does George Bush earn? How much is his wealth worth? Pls answer!!!
Since u said u can know wart n wat that why i asked u!!!
If u cant answer,just keep yr mouth shutted up!!! -
Take a look at the people who were exiled by choice or circumstance.
All these intellectuals have one thing in common, they are much more talented and were able to match and surpass LKY in terms of intellect and wit. -
No, but you implied that the government is corrupted by comparing it to the NKF. I got say I know what meh? What did I say I know? That Singapore is ranked number 5 in the world for the least corrupt? I gave the link already lor.Originally posted by foomwee88:Where did i say Lees family is corrupted??? who knows???
Since u said u can know wart n wat that why i asked u!!!
If u cant answer,just keep yr mouth shutted up!!!
Why don't you answer my questions? By the way, what are the salaries of the Prime Ministers of Finland, Iceland and Denmark? What are their wealth? How much did their overseas ventures lose? If you can't answer my questions, you should shut up. Hahahaha
Anyhow, use your brain and think. Even if the government is corrupt, they would still give figures for these questions. Only that they would be fake. You think if you go to the Ministry of Finance, they will tell you "Sorry, it's state secret", "No, I can't tell you that" or "Next question please"? Please lah, the government is much smarter than you. Even if they are corrupt, they will still give you a figure. So, you haven't tried to find right? Then don't expect somebody to find out for you. -
Well, I can't argue with that. Maybe when the country was in its infancy, LKY thought that it would be best to let one party bring the country forward rather than chop and change. Nevertheless, I hope it is not the same case today.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Take a look at the people who were exiled by choice or circumstance.
All these intellectuals have one thing in common, they are much more talented and were able to match and surpass LKY in terms of intellect and wit.
Oh yeah, I just remembered why both the SDA and WP are not capable of running our country. Remember how they were recruiting new blood such as young 30 year old IT executives to run for GRCs near the elections? Those people didn't even have the ability to run a company department, let alone a GRC. -
Has it not been MM LKY's line of arrogance that Governments formed by an Opposition can only come about by opening the treasury to Singaporeans ?
I still don't see any sign of LKY saying EVERY OTHER PARTY ELECTED will be corrupted and will plunder.
Has it not been MM LKY's hollow desparation in branding the Opposition as corrupt and incapable ?
Yet, without being corrupt, the Opposition Parties had shown that their candidates can reduce the margins of good votes to PM LHL at only 63 percent - which was despite the corrupt use of upgrading enticements.
Before the Opposition Parties can come to power, has anyone appreciated the fact that the Ruling Party has already placed their greedy fingers on the authoritative seals of power, to change the Constitution so as to bypass the Elected President, and allow themselves access to the multi-billion medisave accounts ? -
I take it you are not currently residing in Singapore; if you did surely you would know that Aljunied GRC was successfully defended by George Yeo, admist edgy and tense moments, by a mere fraction of the votes.Originally posted by outofcontrol225:Nobody said that the vote is less powerful. Who said that? I'm just giving you a definition of what freak result means. If another party is voted in, they will still run the government. No problems with that.
Why do I speak of SDP? Because they are the best example of a lousy party. Do note that I purposely asked which other parties are capable to run our country. I'm sure the Aljunied GRC people found that the other party is better. That's why they are now run by the opposition party. So, does this mean that they should run the country too?
No right minded Singaporean will ever vote in the SDP, simply because they rant and rant but offer no roadmap of their own. It is even possible that the party chief, if miraculously elected, has absolutely no idea how to perform his duties as a member of parliament, except to continue his rants in parliament.
Singaporeans are not stupid. They may be upset at the high-handed tactics of the Ruling Party, but they will obviously not vote in a sub-par political alternative either.
As to your rhetorical question of does this mean that they should run the country too, why not?
Who's to say the alternatives cannot offer success the way the ruling party has tasted it? Why are the ruling party so afraid of challenges to their political strength that they immediately spread doubts over the challenger's ability to withstand office? Why must they have the police photograph, videotape and interrogate anyone who speaks to alternatives? isn't that an obvious abuse of power?
Who watches the watchers? -
U said NKF is corrupted!!! this is wat u said but we r still awaiting 4 court decission!!!anyway, do u know where is Mr Durei now???Originally posted by outofcontrol225:No, but you implied that the government is corrupted by comparing it to the NKF. I got say I know what meh? What did I say I know? That Singapore is ranked number 5 in the world for the least corrupt? I gave the link already lor.
Why don't you answer my questions? By the way, what are the salaries of the Prime Ministers of Finland, Iceland and Denmark? What are their wealth? How much did their overseas ventures lose? If you can't answer my questions, you should shut up. Hahahaha
Anyhow, use your brain and think. Even if the government is corrupt, they would still give figures for these questions. Only that they would be fake. You think if you go to the Ministry of Finance, they will tell you "Sorry, it's state secret", "No, I can't tell you that" or "Next question please"? Please lah, the government is much smarter than you. Even if they are corrupt, they will still give you a figure. So, you haven't tried to find right? Then don't expect somebody to find out for you.
Our Pm's salary is on the top of the list although we r only 25 km from E- W !!! do u know!!
But my salary is S$ 100,000 per month now!!! -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
You are right, I confused my facts. The only two constituencies won by the opposition are Hougang and Potong Pasir. I don't think there are any doubts that the SDP are probably the worst party to vote for. But SDA or WP to run the country? They didn't even have enough people to challenge the PAP in the first place, resorting, as I said, to picking young and inexperienced people to make up the numbers. I would have relented if these were at least managers or directors of some company, but damn, executives are dime a dozen in this country. Running a GRC is okay, not the country. Maybe in the future, when they've gotten a better pool of talented people. But of course, people will say that the government is constantly restricting the opposition, which is another debate altogether.
I take it you are not currently residing in Singapore; if you did surely you would know that Aljunied GRC was successfully defended by George Yeo, admist edgy and tense moments, by a mere fraction of the votes.
No right minded Singaporean will ever vote in the SDP, simply because they rant and rant but offer no roadmap of their own. It is even possible that the party chief, if miraculously elected, has absolutely no idea how to perform his duties as a member of parliament, except to continue his rants in parliament.
Singaporeans are not stupid. They may be upset at the high-handed tactics of the Ruling Party, but they will obviously not vote in a sub-par political alternative either.
As to your rhetorical question of [b]does this mean that they should run the country too, why not?
Who's to say the alternatives cannot offer success the way the ruling party has tasted it? Why are the ruling party so afraid of challenges to their political strength that they immediately spread doubts over the challenger's ability to withstand office? Why must they have the police photograph, videotape and interrogate anyone who speaks to alternatives? isn't that an obvious abuse of power?
Who watches the watchers?
[/b] -
You are going into tehcnicalities now. I don't think that anybody in Singapore has any doubts that the NKF was corrupt. If you do, maybe we can have a bet. But if you did not assume that the NKF was corrupt when making the comparison, then what were you thinking? That the government is nice and clean? If so, then good for you, there is no debate.Originally posted by foomwee88:U said NKF is corrupted!!! this is wat u said but we r still awaiting 4 court decission!!!anyway, do u know where is Mr Durei now???
Our Pm's salary is on the top of the list although we r only 25 km from E- W !!! do u know!!
But my salary is S$ 100,000 per month now!!!
I do not quite understand the last two sentences. -
that is just so true. the ruling party must be thinking they are the only worldly wise ones while the rest of the population must be blatant idiots to stomache all sorts of their nonsense...sad but true I just hope more of their policies fail and more will see it as just comeuppance for all their authoritarian misdeeds, its about time.Originally posted by Atobe:
It is sheer arrogance on the part of LKY to suggest that any other Singaporean political party that is chosen and elected by Singaporeans - instead of the Incumbent PAP - can only result in the plundering of the Singapore Reserves.
It suggests that Singaporeans are unable to judge.
It suggests that any other political party that decide to use the Singapore Reserves will not be doing anything for the interest of Singapore.
It is simply patronising of LKY on his views of Singaporeans and in his treatment of even his peers - whether Singaporeans or foreigners.
What is the implication of LKY's warning concerning the SAF intervention in the electoral process of Singapore ?
Is the SAF protecting the Constitution, the interest of Singapore and Singaporeans, or that of LKY and the PAP ?
Does LKY respect Singaporeans, the Singapore Constitution, the Singapore Legislations, the Electoral Process; or is he simply too big even for his own size shoes ?
Has he not already made changes to the Constitution that put the following Pubic Positions beyond any attempt by a new government to change the current choice in the Heads of the Judiciary, the Attorney-General Chambers, the SAF, the Singapore Police Force, the Public Service Commission, and the Heads of all Statutory Boards and Government Linked Companies ?
What was the reason behind these moves, and what are the serious implication of such a situation in the event that the LKY and his PAP is ever voted out of public office ?
Will LKY and his appointees usurp the powers of government despite being voted out of office ?
What kind of Public Institutions has LKY created that will be held to ransom by a small group of incumbent politicians and its own political process ?
Can the present Singapore Institution outlast the political process, or will it simply self-destruct at the command of the present political party that one day can be voted out-of-office ?
Is this the permanent legacy of LKY for Singapore ?
Is it not sheer condescension and arrogance of LKY to believe that only his chosen ones and his political party are the only ones capable of leading Singapore forward to the next level ?
Does this not reflect the truth that LKY is simply too long in a position of power to relinquish it, and is simply doing too much for too long for his own good ?
Why does Singapore continue to have LKY an 83 year old, when even in PR China - anyone reaching the age of 80 years old are expected to step out from Public Office, as well as from sitting as a Member in the Peoples' Congress ?
Surely, Singapore and Singaporeans deserve a political system and public institutions that can withstand the rigours of multi-party politics, and with the best political party being elected to form the best Government for Singaporeans and Singapore ?
While Thailand has a revered King to act as a neutral arbiter in resolving national crisis, and in which even the Thai Military will bow to, does such a National Figure exist in Singapore - when even the Elected Presidency has to be annointed by LKY and his PAP before submitting the nomination paper as a Presidential candidate ?
Is the Singapore Presidency a politically neutral office as it was originally set out to be one, or has it already been politically tainted through its two presidential election process ?
Can this Public Office intervene neutrally in any political crisis ?
Sadly, it is unlikely anytime in the near future or otherwise; and based on the present method of scrutiny, any potential presidential hopefuls will seldom reach the selection finals for LKY's annointment of approval. -
OMG i can only say that those who rush to condemn the PAP should think very carefully about every move they have made since they took power. sure they are assholes and sure the run of the mill backbencher leaves much to be desired in terms of ability and empathy, but never for a moment believe that the oppostion possesses people of the calibre of george yeo or teo chee hean and yes, the two lees as well.
our opposition is great for grassroots but has no credibility whatsoever when it comes to governance. can they bring you better utilities? sure. so could i, come to that, if i had the money and the will. but can they guide singapore's growth? the freemarket can do wonders where a country is large and secure in its resources. in singapore? we need the freemarket TEMPERED with appropriate guidance.
mm lee is more worried abt a opposition like ours at this point in time taking office. hell, im worried too. id be pretty happy with a credible opposition tho, and im sure he would be too.
if an unworthy opposition through some fluke, bad luck or populist campaigning manages to take power, the army will stage a coup. certainly that isnt a sure thing, but the chances are high. take a look at our generals and colonels; a large number of them are scholars. they understand public policy, they understand economics and they sure as hell will understand the shit we'll be in if we have an opposition that doesnt have a clue coming into power. and yes they will stage a coup and for more pressing reasons than sonthi did over in thailand.
the last thing i can say in the mitigation of the pap is that the stock prices on singaporean companies will go to hell if an opposition takes over for obvious reasons. i dislike the pap as much as the rest of you, but let's be fair. -
Another one who is quick to presume. Have you read up on the support that the other parties have these days? Just because it isn't in the MSM, it doesn't mean it isn't there.Originally posted by sngyze:OMG i can only say that those who rush to condemn the PAP should think very carefully about every move they have made since they took power. sure they are assholes and sure the run of the mill backbencher leaves much to be desired in terms of ability and empathy, but never for a moment believe that the oppostion possesses people of the calibre of george yeo or teo chee hean and yes, the two lees as well.
our opposition is great for grassroots but has no credibility whatsoever when it comes to governance. can they bring you better utilities? sure. so could i, come to that, if i had the money and the will. but can they guide singapore's growth? the freemarket can do wonders where a country is large and secure in its resources. in singapore? we need the freemarket TEMPERED with appropriate guidance.
mm lee is more worried abt a opposition like ours at this point in time taking office. hell, im worried too. id be pretty happy with a credible opposition tho, and im sure he would be too.
if an unworthy opposition through some fluke, bad luck or populist campaigning manages to take power, the army will stage a coup. certainly that isnt a sure thing, but the chances are high. take a look at our generals and colonels; a large number of them are scholars. they understand public policy, they understand economics and they sure as hell will understand the shit we'll be in if we have an opposition that doesnt have a clue coming into power. and yes they will stage a coup and for more pressing reasons than sonthi did over in thailand.
the last thing i can say in the mitigation of the pap is that the stock prices on singaporean companies will go to hell if an opposition takes over for obvious reasons. i dislike the pap as much as the rest of you, but let's be fair.
Believe me, there are very capable people out there who would step forward the PAP is out of power.Singaporeans are a practical bunch, they will see that it is in their interest to serve the new administration with the same fervour as they did the previous one. We are not lounge lizards who can afford to lie around the minute another party gains control.
Furthermore, I foresee the end of one-party rule. The way forward is coalition of parties who can serve different specialised interests for economies of scale. -
that kind of foresight... is worthless... nothing last forever as the sayings go... even the sun would one day stop shinning...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Another one who is quick to presume. Have you read up on the support that the other parties have these days? Just because it isn't in the MSM, it doesn't mean it isn't there.
Believe me, there are very capable people out there who would step forward the PAP is out of power.Singaporeans are a practical bunch, they will see that it is in their interest to serve the new administration with the same fervour as they did the previous one. We are not lounge lizards who can afford to lie around the minute another party gains control.
Furthermore, I foresee the end of one-party rule. The way forward is coalition of parties who can serve different specialised interests for economies of scale.
by the way... you say afew people who left singapore are better then LKY... care to name me afew.. and what are they doing as of now.. or prior to their last breath? -
It depends on what benchmark you want to use.Originally posted by tripwire:that kind of foresight... is worthless... nothing last forever as the sayings go... even the sun would one day stop shinning...
by the way... you say afew people who left singapore are better then LKY... care to name me afew.. and what are they doing as of now.. or prior to their last breath?
For goodness sake everyone, stop thinking LKY is some genius or whatever. He is not the founding architect of Singapore, but just one of many. -
Hmmm it doth seem to me that it is you who has made presumptions in rebutting my post. you are right, there are many people who are capable but remain outside the establishment. i like to consider myself one of them.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Another one who is quick to presume. Have you read up on the support that the other parties have these days? Just because it isn't in the MSM, it doesn't mean it isn't there.
Believe me, there are very capable people out there who would step forward the PAP is out of power.Singaporeans are a practical bunch, they will see that it is in their interest to serve the new administration with the same fervour as they did the previous one. We are not lounge lizards who can afford to lie around the minute another party gains control.
Furthermore, I foresee the end of one-party rule. The way forward is coalition of parties who can serve different specialised interests for economies of scale.
yet as i see it, the problem is this: were the opposition to take power in the next election, none of these people would be in the new government. yes they will be out there doing their thing, propping up the private sector and so on but the policy decisions will be out of their hands. the hope is that the new government relies on their expertise to help plan their next steps, but the fear is that they will not do this isn't it?
and yes well we all forsee the end of one party rule don't we? most of us even hope for it. as i said, the fear is that any alternative party that comes to possess power is hopelessly inept. i didn't say that this is a certainty, i said that it is a possibility and one that i dread. now when mm made those comments, i do not believe that he was saying that any other government that comes to power is bound to do that. lets not rush to condemn without first considering what he meant, and let us not rush to bring in entirely irrelevant issues (i don't mean you, LazerLordz). by the way i don't quite get the economies of scale thing you mentioned. care to explain?
if my two meandering posts haven't made it clear already, I am simply calling for some fairness and reflection, not a knee jerk reaction to condemn someone who has for the most part done right for our country. -
in the event the "new" political party or even the "existing" PAP is corrupt and incompetent, one should use the political process to change the government..... and not using military action.Originally posted by kecang_puteh:True, nobody will condone a coup in Singapore. I think maybe only in an extreme case whereby the new party is obviously very incompetent, corrupt and out to strip the country of its resources. In such a case, there will probably be enough people in support of the PAP in to carry such a task. But I think MM Lee is only trying to scare the people into voting for the PAP.
Probably MM Lee is hinting that for the current political system even if the political party is corrupt and incompetent, there is nothing you can do... sounds familar? -
i didnt say he is the only genius... i always knew that i am better then him in everyway... except for my background..Originally posted by LazerLordz:It depends on what benchmark you want to use.
For goodness sake everyone, stop thinking LKY is some genius or whatever. He is not the founding architect of Singapore, but just one of many.
but i just wanna know who else is out there... who is as genius as me mah... so i ask for afew name lor...
if you dont have it... never mind lah... i understand.
i am a genius afterall....
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whatever you say my man. sometimes being rhetorical is less taxing...Originally posted by tripwire:i didnt say he is the only genius... i always knew that i am better then him in everyway... except for my backing..
but i just wanna know who else is out there... who is as genius as me mah... so i ask for afew lor...
if you dont have it... never mind lah... i understand.
cheers.