Debate - government digs in and refuses changes.
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witness wrote:
Enough has been said about Singapore being a small country and that we need to be grateful for having at least founded a country where people have jobs and few are starving.
robert...
One fact we mustn't overlook: Singapore is an extremely tiny nation which has to compete with the world.
Which system anywhere is perfect? But of course, things can always be improved. And we should not stop trying to improve.
But in the main, this place works.
It is true that some people are filthy rich whereas many languish with barely enough to support themselves and their families. But few are on the verge of starvation.
Let's be grateful for that.
biz...
Subject to the laws of libel, we do have freedom of speech in Sg. Aren't our taxi drivers living proof of this?
This has always been the constant line of argument by our leaders with the help of a compliant press and people to excuse them of not trying harder to implement the right solutions to problems.
No one including me has disputed this fact Singapore is a red dot and I am one who is grateful too for certain basic security and law and order here.
At what price to the ordinary and middle income groups is another issue. What kind of policy abberations are being dished out to the entire populations which have failed to work for many years is yet another.
What is crucial to Singapore's continued ongoing success however has been overlooked by the same cock-sured arroogant attitude adopted by our self-proclaimed world-class leaders - the motivational people's factor.
People have been at pain in pointing out policy shortcomings. But the saddest part is the leaders are not listening after all these years to what went wrong and things continued to be mismanaged under wrong policy conceptualisation without admission of problems like seen happening in NKF.
Whatever government has done and is still doing seems to be at the expense of the people by going for double-charging and taxing and recovering and clamping down on freedoms and its meritocracy policy does not work except for its own political control and domination.
So people now want to ask for change and change through questioning the bigotry arrogance and pressing for the right to express their political beliefs and alternative solutions, real openness accountability and transparency.
Singapore since 1970s has been a leadership spewing demagogue emphasing on leaders' visions, leadership, foresight without corresponding implementation abiliites needed to sustain prosperity and continued success.
This is a more crucial issue for any political renewal now and it is one which is badly needs to be addressed now in the absence of our scholars taking the tough stand to do so - not the brainwashing process going on for ages with all the controlled media taking the line that without leadership Singapore would have failed and all the constant leadership talk or all the crap about law and order just to allow the autocracy to keep dishing out anti-progress and anti-people liberty old way of doing things to benefit themselves. -
Very well said, Robertteh.Originally posted by robertteh:Enough has been said about Singapore being a small country and that we need to be grateful for having at least founded a country where people have jobs and few are starving.
This has always been the constant line of argument by our leaders with the help of a compliant press and people to excuse them of not trying harder to implement the right solutions to problems.
No one including me has disputed this fact Singapore is a red dot and I am one who is grateful too for certain basic security and law and order here.
At what price to the ordinary and middle income groups is another issue. What kind of policy abberations are being dished out to the entire populations which have failed to work for many years is yet another.
What is crucial to Singapore's continued ongoing success however has been overlooked by the same cock-sured arroogant attitude adopted by our self-proclaimed world-class leaders - the motivational people's factor.
People have been at pain in pointing out policy shortcomings. But the saddest part is the leaders are not listening after all these years to what went wrong and things continued to be mismanaged under wrong policy conceptualisation without admission of problems like seen happening in NKF.
Whatever government has done and is still doing seems to be at the expense of the people by going for double-charging and taxing and recovering and clamping down on freedoms and its meritocracy policy does not work except for its own political control and domination.
So people now want to ask for change and change through questioning the bigotry arrogance and pressing for the right to express their political beliefs and alternative solutions, real openness accountability and transparency.
Singapore since 1970s has been a leadership spewing demagogue emphasing on leaders' visions, leadership, foresight without corresponding implementation abiliites needed to sustain prosperity and continued success.
This is a more crucial issue for any political renewal now and it is one which is badly needs to be addressed now in the absence of our scholars taking the tough stand to do so - not the brainwashing process going on for ages with all the controlled media taking the line that without leadership Singapore would have failed and all the constant leadership talk or all the crap about law and order just to allow the autocracy to keep dishing out anti-progress and anti-people liberty old way of doing things to benefit themselves.
I am on similar wavelength as you.
The self-righteous, self-serving and self-enriching lot, under the guise of
meritocracy and doing things for the people, actually is benefiting its
own elites, families, relatives, close associates and cronies only.
Some people can fool others some time.
Some people can fool some others all the time.
But some people cannot fool all the people all the time.
One day, the truth is going to be revealed!!!
If we continued to allow ourselves to be lured into accepting that
"nobody is starving to death" and "there are no poor people in Singapore"
kinds of logic, then we are back in 1959. -
Same old n outdated analogy have been used over n over again!!!Pls lah we r not in the 1950s when Sporeans were flighting for only some basic needs.
As a "super developed" country like Spore, our ministers's pay had jumped 100 times may be more!!!but our citizens hve to work at least three generations to achive this kind of ministers'pay per year,where is the justice!!! adding to our insult even S$600k per yr is ' peanut"
Only know how to Sucking our blood daily by implementing GST,ERP n etc to justify their incomes, these r the only things they know wat to do!!!! -
Not trying to defend the government but if you guys ever tried living in another country, you'll realised Singapore's quite well managed with little or no corruption.
Even the best have flaws in them (eg, look at Bush in US) -
which another country r u refering to? sure hope u are refering to the ones which are on the same level in terms of economy and living standards.. Bush? oh yea, he's got flaws alright..everyone knows that, even he admitted that he should not have said certain things..but at least the ppl there have 'senates' and opposition parties to see that the bills are passed with best interest for the ppl of the states. heck they can even make fun of the president and vp on tv..Originally posted by kaister:Not trying to defend the government but if you guys ever tried living in another country, you'll realised Singapore's quite well managed with little or no corruption.
Even the best have flaws in them (eg, look at Bush in US)
in s'pore..doing tat on tv amounts to 'I don't want to live anymore'
Had Durai not sued the SPH, we probably would;t had realised that he and his cronies had peanut salaries.. little or no corruption? -
Why always negative views on the govt? Don't they have any positive stuff for us to talk about?
Balanced views would be helpful, I think. -
You want positive views pls go to stomp.com.sg.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Why always negative views on the govt? Don't they have any positive stuff for us to talk about?
Balanced views would be helpful, I think. Its balance mah, stomp is positive, sgforums negative. Soon, HWZ forums will also be positive, but no fear sammyboy will even out the balance again. -
Positive (adj) :Characterized by or displaying certainty, acceptance, or affirmation.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Why always negative views on the govt? Don't they have any positive stuff for us to talk about?
Balanced views would be helpful, I think.
U should instead ask the de facto mouthpiece, why always the positive views on the govt past 41 years!Don't they have any negative stuff to talk about? -
witness wrote:
Coming to think of it, does the government ever care whether citizens have any views or problems. It would appear that the leaders regard themselves as infallible and do not care about citizens' hardship or suffering. In the name of pragmatism the government would do almost anything irrespective of people's problems or hardship. They have gone ahead to cut people's CPF, and sacrificed their rights to equitable rewards and privileges as citizens by coming up with all kinds of hardline policies and iron rule just to make them jobs easier.
robert...
I am aware that the tiny, vulnerable red dot argument has often been made. Nevertheless, sometimes I do feel that we do not appreciate this reality intensively enough. We are right up there competing with so many who are far better endowed than ourselves.
I do take your point that there are many imperfections in our system. And I applaud your attempts to point this out to all who would hear.
They even go big scale into business to compete against their own people for a living.
So there is no issue whether citizens should appreciate government's view about the country being a small vulnerable red dot in any way as the government would as always impose all its hardline policies on the people whether they people like it or not.
So if the leaders wanted people to support their policies they will first have to demonstrate they have been a caring and listening government in the first place.
So the reality is that the government did not listen and it looks like they will continue to give the same old excuses whenever they is any hardships and recessions to give the old arguments that surpluses are for the bad times without giving people any hope that there is indeed any use for building up those surpluses.
But without getting any of the people's consent they had no hesitation to spend on those surpluses painfully taxed from the people on their own highest rewards and bonuses and even making billion-dollar losses on overseas projects without benefit to the people.
The leaders are now even so bold as to be prepared to forego their own citizens and import foreigners to be its citizens.
This is the extent of suffering of the people which the leaders do not seem to care to acknowledge or change. They seem to be interested only in creating benefits for the elites adn their careers using the people's monies without any compunctions.
Now it is for them to understand that perhaps enough is enough with their excuses and if they want people to support them they are the ones who should change.
The should stop using all kinds of tactics and excuses to brow beat the people with fee increases and taxing and recovering to no end just to secure their own benefits.
They have created all the past problems which are hampering the growths and potential of this place since 1970s.
They need to change the old iron rule and open up and help their own citizens to succeed.
The old policies like the meritocracy and leadership abilities of their scholars simply have not worked to the benefit of the people as to be seen in the last two recessions.
It is for the leaders to make some major changes if they want to win over the people once again. -
Bah....ST is a propaganda machine, so it does not even fall under the category of "balanced views".Originally posted by qpicanto:Positive (adj) :Characterized by or displaying certainty, acceptance, or affirmation.
U should instead ask the de facto mouthpiece, why always the positive views on the govt past 41 years!Don't they have any negative stuff to talk about?
Likewise, too much negative criticisms from the same source makes me feel that it is biased too. -
justicepao wrote:
The whole issue of having to pay high salaries to retain talents and avoid corrupting the corruptible of the civil servants and ministers and MPs has been a hype created to give self-rewards without substantiation or justification.
Hi Butcher et al,
$13,500 pm + bonus+ retirement benefits not enough? Probably only 5% of spreans earn more than this! Are all the mps the top 5% of the country in terms of heart and abilities? What were many of the mps doing before election? - HODs/VPs/Ps/teachers in schools, journalists, GM, Financial planners/advisors/analysts, HR Directors, lawyers, doctors etc. Ordinary graduates are also performing these jobs - where got top talents? Only BG Lee and George Yeo and Lim Hng Kiang and Chan Soo Sen are former scholars - the rest are much lesser than scholars - partly of course because we do not want all scholars because they cannot understand all components of society. So do not say such pay is not high. It is very high because they can work as CEOs/GMs in addition to holding directorships in other cos. In fact mps' pay often are much higher than the ministers' - on the contrary to many of your views! There are only a few mins who are earning more before public office like MOM, Dr Richard Hu, Dr Tonly Tan.
It is the more materialistic sporeans that causes such yen for money that we need always to pay so high for such elite. Other nations like US and Japn are not so materialistic when they are rich or at middle-income level - they are willing to take up govt posts and suffer drop in pay and pay high tax upon transition to govt because they have to dispose their assets to prevent conflict of interests. While it is true we have to be more reasonable in paying govt/public or any pte incumbents to reduce corruption, other countries' salaries are not as high and yet they are judged to be just as incorrupt or even less corrupt than sg!
It was raised at a time when the economy was on the rise in the 1960s.
But when the economy was dropping due to recessions the private sector wages actually self-corrected although the government continued to push for their own rewards benchmarked to something unsubstantiated on facts and only on assumptions.
When MM Lee first started the campaign back in 1970s to push for wage restructuring of civil servants and ministers to match those of the private sector the situation derserved some corrections and adjustments but he went overboard with his assumption and the seed was sowed to breed elitism and high costs of living.
Throughout the whole period 1970s - 1990s, the private sector's wages actually corrected and came down below that of the public sector but that of the public sector continued to go up accentuated by many promotional schemes.
As a result of many years of such-like wage push by the public sector, an average senior civil servant's pay of some 10-20 years service went up more than three times of the 1970s despite the drop of senior managers' pay in the private sector. That was why HDB, PSA and SIA were found to have overpaid most of their staff resulting in pruning being necessary to prevent collapse of such companies.
However, other services which were not exposed ot outside competition like the Town council, government departments providing bill collector services were over-inflated with highest pays unjustified by any competitive or commercial standard measurements.
Such services like car park, M&E and routine services which were not competitive should have been outsourced a long time ago but they were still being over-bloated with high pays at the expense of the taxpayers.
MPs and ministers only collect monies and enforce regulations with little caccountability for performance or creation of jobs for the citixens. They were being overpaid by at least three times if not more.
Senior civil servants do not have responsibility for performance and only spend public taxes and balance their bookd but all of them were regarded as talents and creator of wealth but in real fact were just bill collectors.
So how does the public sector go on to jusftify high wages at the expense of raising costs of living?
MPs and ministers of the calibre of Dr. Goh Keng Swee deserves the million-dollars salary but these are only a few and special votes can be taken to pass this kind of salaries for deserving cases not all the rest of ministers who have not proven themselves.
So it is time for the new PM to understand the past problems and take action to correct wrong assumptions about talents and abilities.
Not all ministers and not all civil servants are that talented as assumed. If their pays are like NKF Durai being pushed up due to self-recommendations by insider parties who are influenced by assumptions, it is time to get real.
It Singapore wants to be competitive it is necessary to avoid overpaying all the civil servants and ministers and CEOs of companies in GLCs.
Ordinary workers and middle managerment salaries are not the problems. Often it is the senior wages which cause the loss of our economic competitivenss. Waint to conduct a survey to see why so many listed public companies are losing monies due to overpayment of senior wages.
Or do we want to see more companies losing monies and moving out of Singapore because of this government-led senior wage push. It is scary human greed can get out of control in modern Singapore.
PM Lee should see the whole picture for himself if he wants to create competitiveness or employments opportunities. In fact they deny the NKF highly unjustified peanut pays, there will be more problems coming.
It is time as Ngiam Tong Dow has pointed out to stop using NWC or PTC to push up pays for GLCs and put the blame of unemployments back to the people. -
Well said...4getmenot!!!Originally posted by 4getmenot:which another country r u refering to? sure hope u are refering to the ones which are on the same level in terms of economy and living standards.. Bush? oh yea, he's got flaws alright..everyone knows that, even he admitted that he should not have said certain things..but at least the ppl there have 'senates' and opposition parties to see that the bills are passed with best interest for the ppl of the states. heck they can even make fun of the president and vp on tv..
in s'pore..doing tat on tv amounts to 'I don't want to live anymore'
Had Durai not sued the SPH, we probably would;t had realised that he and his cronies had peanut salaries.. little or no corruption?
-
This is very true!!!!!!Originally posted by robertteh:Coming to think of it, does the government ever care whether citizens have any views or problems. It would appear that the leaders regard themselves as infallible and do not care about citizens' hardship or suffering. In the name of pragmatism the government would do almost anything irrespective of people's problems or hardship. They have gone ahead to cut people's CPF, and sacrificed their rights to equitable rewards and privileges as citizens by coming up with all kinds of hardline policies and iron rule just to make them jobs easier.
They even go big scale into business to compete against their own people for a living.
So there is no issue whether citizens should appreciate government's view about the country being a small vulnerable red dot in any way as the government would as always impose all its hardline policies on the people whether they people like it or not.
So if the leaders wanted people to support their policies they will first have to demonstrate they have been a caring and listening government in the first place.
So the reality is that the government did not listen and it looks like they will continue to give the same old excuses whenever they is any hardships and recessions to give the old arguments that surpluses are for the bad times without giving people any hope that there is indeed any use for building up those surpluses.
But without getting any of the people's consent they had no hesitation to spend on those surpluses painfully taxed from the people on their own highest rewards and bonuses and even making billion-dollar losses on overseas projects without benefit to the people.
The leaders are now even so bold as to be prepared to forego their own citizens and import foreigners to be its citizens.
This is the extent of suffering of the people which the leaders do not seem to care to acknowledge or change. They seem to be interested only in creating benefits for the elites adn their careers using the people's monies without any compunctions.
Now it is for them to understand that perhaps enough is enough with their excuses and if they want people to support them they are the ones who should change.
The should stop using all kinds of tactics and excuses to brow beat the people with fee increases and taxing and recovering to no end just to secure their own benefits.
They have created all the past problems which are hampering the growths and potential of this place since 1970s.
They need to change the old iron rule and open up and help their own citizens to succeed.
The old policies like the meritocracy and leadership abilities of their scholars simply have not worked to the benefit of the people as to be seen in the last two recessions.
It is for the leaders to make some major changes if they want to win over the people once again.