MM LKY ~~ " I'm Sorry. Still Friends?? "
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Rice once spilled can be collected back.
Words once said cannot be unsaid... -
typical LKY, say sorry liao still must add: "you started first"
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Just as a typical lawyer would do. To give a hypothetical situation to only later withdraw it, isn't that what lawyers do during cross examination? But what's already said is exactly that. It's in the past. Withdrawing the statement or giving an apology isn't going to help. Damage has been done. And to think all's well after an apology has been given is childish!!!
While his observations are true, what does he get out by saying what's on his mind? So a western audience can and ought to hear the truth, but locals must be brainwashed???
Ohhh I forgot, MM is a lawyer -
I am actually looking forward to seeing the major malaysian media publishing the reply including the annexes.Originally posted by AMD2004:I wonder how many of u guys here actually read the letter and downloaded the annexes.
LKY..made a good move. His annexes , referenced to 1 whole list of incidents whereby M'sia government had openly commented on S'pore's Malay.
It is true that LKY said Malaysian government marginalize the chinese and indian. Is he saying the truth? YES, even with the new government, we have seen nothing concrete yet to change.
Now we are reminded that the malaysian politicians have for years been saying that Singaporean government marginalize the Malays here. It is true?? I leave it to the our Malays singaporean to answer that. But do the Malaysians have to apologise for what they said? NO. Why? because they are the big brothers, at least this is what they think.
Damage done? I don't see any damage with what LKY said, lets call a spade a spade. For once I salute LKY for speaking the truth for some people. -
MM Lee should not apologise at all.
he said nothing but the truth.
however, when sometimes the truth is out and it points directly to the fault people made, they deny. This is what everyone is good at.
No point saying much, some of the people here are aiming their darts at LKY and not what he said. Against the people, but not the matter.
There might not be so much objection here, IF it is the opposition who said the above.
And i can vouch, at least 2 chinese living in msia agree with what LKY says. (and i only have 2 msia chinese frds) -
Well true, Malaysia DID commented about us.Originally posted by charlize:Yeah, I heard about the annexes too.
It's like telling the other side " Hey, you did that too. So why can't I?"
But I feel so long as the apology was made, it is fair enough.
The Annex serves as gentle reminder to them, to not start fires that can burn down their own palace. -
What damage had been done? What false remarks?Originally posted by Atobe:
The damage has been done, as what was spoken before a seminar and heard by a large attendees of well established personnalities, was also printed in the Singapore Straits Times, distributed as standard fare to all the hotel rooms of the 16,000 delegates attending the IMF-World Bank Convention.
The decidedly false remarks was compounded by the fact that he is respected as a leading Statesman, a resputable authority with supposedly close insight to this Region.
Can his views be relied on in the future, or has he got things muddled up with his old political baggage from a by-gone era ?
Will he published his apology to all the World to know that what was spoken about Malaysia and Indonesia is false ?
He has demanded the same from those whom he has forcefully defeated for libel, and have extracted worst retribution from his opponents.
If Malaysia and Badawi accepts his apology with grace and let the matter lie, it will at least teach him to be more generous towards others, who may have 'inadvertently stepped on him on the wrong side'.
Sadly, it is unlikely that LKY will ever learn to be humble or generous towards those whom he has defeated, and grind into dust.
MM Lee said sorry for not the truth that he had spoken, but sorry for causing great discomfort to Abdullah, “I am sorry that what I said has caused you a great deal of discomfort. After a decade of troubled relations with your predecessor, it is the last thing I wanted.”
The truths hurt right. MM Lees' views will also be sought after by all.
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Yes. we must read the whole letter including the whole Annex signed off by MM Lee.Originally posted by AMD2004:I wonder how many of u guys here actually read the letter and downloaded the annexes.
LKY..made a good move. His annexes , referenced to 1 whole list of incidents whereby M'sia government had openly commented on S'pore's Malay.
The No 1 item on the Annex is about the comment made by the son-in-law of current Malaysian PM Abdullah Badawi, Umno Youth Deputy Chief Khairy Jamaluddin on 3 Sep 06. "Khairy was reported to have said that the Malays in Penang faced the same fate of bieng marginalised as those in Singapore and that many of them were forced to move elsewhere."
You can say me, I can also say you right. So what is the big fuss? If you do not want me to say you, you better shut up first? Right!
MM Lee is preparing the younger Singaporean to face up to future similar situation. -
Agreed. The apology is made for causing the discomfort made claimed by Abdullah, not anything else.Originally posted by pisces8:What damage had been done? What false remarks?
MM Lee said sorry for not the truth that he had spoken, but sorry for causing great discomfort to Abdullah, “I am sorry that what I said has caused you a great deal of discomfort. After a decade of troubled relations with your predecessor, it is the last thing I wanted.”
The truths hurt right. MM Lees' views will also be sought after by all.
More than 17 accounts of "accusation" by the M'sian gov stating that S'pore has been constantly marginalizing the Malay's minorities...yet we held them under our breath... and it is NOT true
We , in one occassion speak for the TRUTH...and they make a big fuss and uproar about it.
Clearly...this attitude .. no doubt - " marginalizing " dont u feel so? -
yap, they have just confirmed what LKY said was true.Originally posted by AMD2004:Agreed. The apology is made for causing the discomfort made claimed by Abdullah, not anything else.
More than 17 accounts of "accusation" by the M'sian gov stating that S'pore has been constantly marginalizing the Malay's minorities...yet we held them under our breath... and it is NOT true
We , in one occassion speak for the TRUTH...and they make a big fuss and uproar about it.
Clearly...this attitude .. no doubt - " marginalizing " dont u feel so? -
Haha.. not bloody likely. No doubt they will give the "sorry" sentence a lot of coverage and conveniently omit the rest of the letter, the hypocritcal farks.Originally posted by sgdiehard:I am actually looking forward to seeing the major malaysian media publishing the reply including the annexes.
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Yes..precisely this is what i was thinking. Majority of them , I would say..only know how to read one word " Sorry" ...then dump the papers elsewhere and start their "yack".Originally posted by Typhoon:Haha.. not bloody likely. No doubt they will give the "sorry" sentence a lot of coverage and conveniently omit the rest of the letter, the hypocritcal farks.
In fact...Abdullah had replied to MM LKY letter, still shed some dissastifaction about it.
Seriously, after harping out approximately 17 "accusations" made to S'pore, did M'sia feel guilty about it ? ever they appologize to S'pore?
Here we go again, holding our deep breath......and said "sorry" for a single remark.
Abdullah is still not pleased over MM LKY letter... www.asiaone.com . Seriously, as a PM, as a Leader, ....can he just ignore the annex like this...brushing it off as if nothing had happen ? And still have guts to "REMIND" s'pore ? unbelievable.
Apart from this incorrigible attitude, I am impressed by the move made by LKY.
www.nst.com.my ( malaysia New Straits Times), the replied by LKY was made clear..the "SORRY" is big enough . Anyway there is a forum linked ...read it and u will see what i mean. -
MM : "Sorry. Still Friends?"
Badawi:"Peng yu? Peng lu eh tau !" -
MM Lee should not apologise at all.
he said nothing but the truth.
however, when sometimes the truth is out and it points directly to the fault people made, they deny. This is what everyone is good at.
No point saying much, some of the people here are aiming their darts at LKY and not what he said. Against the people, but not the matter.
There might not be so much objection here, IF it is the opposition who said the above.
And i can vouch, at least 2 chinese living in msia agree with what LKY says. (and i only have 2 msia chinese frds)
can we handle the truth? what good does it serve singapore if both malaysia and indonesia chinese start racial riot?
why there aint much malay in the armed forces? do we wish to know the truth? can we handle the truth? what good the truth gona provide?
i think we singaporean should just stop meddling in another country affair and deal with our FT policy, new poor, structural employment, disentment in the singapore community. -
Since when did the Chinese start any riots in Malaysia nor Indonesia? The truth is, riots were always started by the majorities in those countries for different reasons. The chinese communities have always been a bogey man, that is the way the Malaysian government treated us, the way they want to continue to treat us.Originally posted by reyes:can we handle the truth? what good does it serve singapore if both malaysia and indonesia chinese start racial riot?
why there aint much malay in the armed forces? do we wish to know the truth? can we handle the truth? what good the truth gona provide?
i think we singaporean should just stop meddling in another country affair and deal with our FT policy, new poor, structural employment, disentment in the singapore community.
We know why there are few malays in the armed forces, but that is not the point. The point is, they, the malaysian politicians could target singapore 17 times (according to the annexes to LKY's reply), literally at their free will, did not care about the feeling of singaporean, and now they have the cheeks to ask for an apology from singapore?
The truth now is that singapore is not the little brother of malaysia!! it is the truth that they have to recognize. It is only then can we deal with one another as a sovereign nation to nation. obviously, they can't accept the truth, let alone handle the truth.
anyway, this provides an opportunity for Pak La to divert the attention from his defiant predecessor Mahathir, the allegations against his son in law Kairy.... i think deep down in him he thanks LKY.
As for singaporean, enough is said. -
Here is the annexe letter.... got from my friend...
Minister Mentor Singapore
29 September 2006
Dear Prime Minister,
Thank you for your letter of 25 September 2006.
I made the remarks in a free-flowing dialogue session with former US Secretary of Treasury Larry Summers before many foreign delegates attending the IMF/WB meeting. To put what Reuters reported into context, I set out the transcript of the relevant passage.
"Let me sum it up nicely, why you must have a government in Singapore which is really firm, stout-hearted, subtle and resolute. My neighbours both have problems with their Chinese. They are successful, they are hardworking and, therefore, they are systematically marginalized, even in education. There are quotas to prevent you. So, you've got to make money to go abroad or go to one of the private universities which are being set up. And they want Singapore, to put it simply, to be like their Chinese, compliant. So, every time we say 'No' to some scheme to knock down the Causeway and build a bridge, he says, 'Oh, you're not cooperative, you're only thinking of yourself'. For no rhyme or reson, we knock down a causeway, nearly 100 years old, which served us well.
He wants to build a bridge because it looks pretty and he says ships will sail and his containers can move from the East Coast to the West Coast via this. But we saw no... So, we said, "All right, if you give us commensurate benefits, we'll agree". But you need a government who'll be able to, not only have the gumption, but the skill to say 'No' in a very quiet, polite way that doesn't provoke them into doing something silly."
On the bridge and the half bridge to remove the Causeway, you made the position of your government clear that Malaysia respects legally binding agreements and acts in accordance with international law. This made unnecessary a reference to ITLOS and the International Court of Justice that would otherwise have been unavoidable. This respect for the law is the basis for sound long-term relations between us.
I was explaining to a liberal audience of westerners who wanted to see a stronger opposition in Singapore, why Singapore needs a strong majority government, not a weak coalition that will hamper us in defending our national interests.
Singapore needs a strong government to maintain good relations with Indonesia and Malaysia, and to interact with Indonesian and Malaysian politicians who consider Singapore to be Chinese, and expect Singapore to be 'sensitive' and comply with their requests.
On numerous occasions, Umno leaders, including Dr Mahathir and many others, have publicly warned Malaysian Malays that if they ever lose power, they risk the same fate as Malays in Singapore, whom they allege are marginalised and discriminated against (see Annex). And from time to time when Malaysian politicians attack Singapore fiercely over some bilateral issues, some of them tell us privately that we should just accept this as part of Malaysian politics and not react to these attacks.
Singapore understands the reality of Malaysian politics. We have never protested at these attacks on our multi-racial systems or our policies, except to clarify our own position when necessary. But we have to explain to our people the root cause of these difficulties in our bilateral relations. Otherwise Singaporeans will believe that their own government is doing wrong, either to our own people or to Malaysia. As for the international audience, with so many foreign embassy staff and foreign correspondents reporting on Singapore and Malaysia, plus tens of thousands of expatriate businessmen working in our two countries, these people will come to their own judgement of the true position regardless of what I say.
I have not said anything more than what I have said so many times before. In fact I have said less than what I had written in my memoirs published in 1998.
I had no intention to meddle in your politics. Indeed I do not have the power to influence Malaysia's politics or to incite the feelings of the Chinese in Malaysia.
Since you took over as Prime Minister in November 2003, relations between our two countries have much improved. Singaporeans and, I believe, Malaysians too, appreciate this. I am sorry that what I said has caused you a great deal of discomfort. After a decade od troubled relations with your predecessor, it is the last thing I wanted.
Your sincerely
LEE KUAN YEW
PS: The fact that you have written to me is now well publicised. As I have been asked about my reply, I will have to release my letter to the media after you have received it. -
since they are so resolute, firm subtle..etc..etc..etc..etc..Originally posted by mhcampboy:Here is the annexe letter.... got from my friend...
Y the u-turn on the ban of the activists during the IMF/WB Meeting??
seems to me the gahmen cares more bout listening to foreigners than its own citizens..
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Originally posted by reyes:
Talking about malays in the army, i wish you had know how many chinese are in the msia goven.
[b]MM Lee should not apologise at all.
he said nothing but the truth.
however, when sometimes the truth is out and it points directly to the fault people made, they deny. This is what everyone is good at.
No point saying much, some of the people here are aiming their darts at LKY and not what he said. Against the people, but not the matter.
There might not be so much objection here, IF it is the opposition who said the above.
And i can vouch, at least 2 chinese living in msia agree with what LKY says. (and i only have 2 msia chinese frds)
can we handle the truth? what good does it serve singapore if both malaysia and indonesia chinese start racial riot?
why there aint much malay in the armed forces? do we wish to know the truth? can we handle the truth? what good the truth gona provide?
i think we singaporean should just stop meddling in another country affair and deal with our FT policy, new poor, structural employment, disentment in the singapore community.
[/b] -
U mean the MY army or MY civil servants? Depending on who u talk to, MY civil servants... non-malays less than 10%. Army... anybody?Originally posted by ejb:Talking about malays in the army, i wish you had know how many chinese are in the msia goven. -
before its too lateOriginally posted by ShutterBug:Finally, I good gentlemanly move.
Make a mistake, waste no time and apologize.
I think apologizing within a week is really quite commendable of our LKY!
This, I respect very much.. -
Small LEE: Papa, dun say that la... Wahlao eh, u really make my job tough leh...
Old LEE: Simeh? What did i say huh?
Small LEE: Lao Peh! u senile liao ah? U go and say the Malaysia and Indon Chinese thingy la!!!
Old LEE: Why? I got say wrong meh? Now u wana quarrel is it?
Small LEE: u fu*king old man... u now old liao, better fu*k off and retire ok?
Old LEE: (Took out his cane and cane small LEE's backside)
Small LEE: Ouch! Sorry PAPA... I wun do that again... Sorry... ya, i admit u r the king always... Sorry... -
MM Lee is a lawyer lah.This is an apolgy for making Malaysia and Indonesia angry and 'discomfort'. But what he never said what he spoke was untrue. Read his lines carefully.Moron.Originally posted by Atobe:
The damage has been done, as what was spoken before a seminar and heard by a large attendees of well established personnalities, was also printed in the Singapore Straits Times, distributed as standard fare to all the hotel rooms of the 16,000 delegates attending the IMF-World Bank Convention.
The decidedly false remarks was compounded by the fact that he is respected as a leading Statesman, a resputable authority with supposedly close insight to this Region.
Can his views be relied on in the future, or has he got things muddled up with his old political baggage from a by-gone era ?
Will he published his apology to all the World to know that what was spoken about Malaysia and Indonesia is false ?
He has demanded the same from those whom he has forcefully defeated for libel, and have extracted worst retribution from his opponents.
If Malaysia and Badawi accepts his apology with grace and let the matter lie, it will at least teach him to be more generous towards others, who may have 'inadvertently stepped on him on the wrong side'.
Sadly, it is unlikely that LKY will ever learn to be humble or generous towards those whom he has defeated, and grind into dust. -
Originally posted by highway69:
Moron ? Is that a backhanded compliment of some sort ?
MM Lee is a lawyer lah.This is an apolgy for making Malaysia and Indonesia angry and 'discomfort'. But what he never said what he spoke was untrue. Read his lines carefully.Moron.
Which part of the 'moronic' line that you cannot understand that led to your remarkable conclusion, or have you read my statement with a preconcieved idea in your mind ?
The fact of the matter is that whatever the apology that has been made - and whether the truth has been said, is the apology of any worth when "The damage has been done, as what was spoken before a seminar and heard by a large attendees of well established personnalities, was also printed in the Singapore Straits Times, distributed as standard fare to all the hotel rooms of the 16,000 delegates attending the IMF-World Bank Convention."
Based on the current policies of the Badawi and Bambamg Government, and their personal attitudes towards their respective Chinese Communities in Malaysia and Indonesia, LKY's statement are "... decidedly false remarks was compounded by the fact that he is respected as a leading Statesman, a resputable authority with supposedly close insight to this Region."
With this apology given, but not a retraction of the 'IRRELEVANT FACTS' to the present state of relations between Singapore and our two immediate neighbors, - "Can his views be relied on in the future, or has he got things muddled up with his old political baggage from a by-gone era ?
"Will he published his apology to all the World to know that what was spoken about Malaysia and Indonesia is false ?
He has demanded the same from those whom he has forcefully defeated for libel, and have extracted worst retribution from his opponents.
If Malaysia and Badawi accepts his apology with grace and let the matter lie, it will at least teach him to be more generous towards others, who may have 'inadvertently stepped on him on the wrong side''.
Sadly, it is unlikely that LKY will ever learn to be humble or generous towards those whom he has defeated, and grind into dust."
Did you read the last line of my post before forming your moronic conclusion ? -
If MM Lee is to apologize, it would be for insensitivity against other countries policies. As for the truth of the matter, what MM lee said is true in the past and is still true currently, nort much significant change has been done to improve the status of Malaysian Chinese and if there are changes they come slowly or inadequately for the average Malaysian Chinese.... I am sure those of you with Malaysian Chinese relatives would agree
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While this letter of 'supposed' apology was extended to placate the roughen political feathers of Malaysia, it has been written with statements that serve to obfuscate totally unrelated events and issues.
Is it any surprise that Badawi should remain dissatisfied with the letter, which simply justifies' LKY's statements which bears 'no relevance to the events of the MOST RECENT THREE YEARS' of Badawi's term in office as the Malaysian Prime Minister ?Minister Mentor Singapore
The remarks made are false as it do not reflect the present attempts by the PRESENT Badawi Government to correct the discriminatory effects of the Bumiputra Policy during Mahathir's 20 years term in office. Badawi's policies were only implemented recently in the 3rd year, can any beneficial effect happen so quickly for the Malaysian communities ?
29 September 2006
Dear Prime Minister,
Thank you for your letter of 25 September 2006.
I made the remarks in a free-flowing dialogue session with former US Secretary of Treasury Larry Summers before many foreign delegates attending the IMF/WB meeting. To put what Reuters reported into context, I set out the transcript of the relevant passage.
Such false remarks have far and wide reaching impact when spoken during a large gathering of foreign delegates attending a major IMF/WB meeting, and the impact is compounded when spoken by LKY, who is respected figure.
Singapore's way in looking at the Malaysian Government's attitude being moulded by the manner it treats its own minority Citizens, and in the manner that the Malaysian Government conduct its relations with Singapore is a matter of private perception held by the Singaporean Leadership.
"Let me sum it up nicely, why you must have a government in Singapore which is really firm, stout-hearted, subtle and resolute. My neighbours both have problems with their Chinese. They are successful, they are hardworking and, therefore, they are systematically marginalized, even in education. There are quotas to prevent you. So, you've got to make money to go abroad or go to one of the private universities which are being set up. And they want Singapore, to put it simply, to be like their Chinese, compliant. So, every time we say 'No' to some scheme to knock down the Causeway and build a bridge, he says, 'Oh, you're not cooperative, you're only thinking of yourself'. For no rhyme or reson, we knock down a causeway, nearly 100 years old, which served us well.
He wants to build a bridge because it looks pretty and he says ships will sail and his containers can move from the East Coast to the West Coast via this. But we saw no... So, we said, "All right, if you give us commensurate benefits, we'll agree". But you need a government who'll be able to, not only have the gumption, but the skill to say 'No' in a very quiet, polite way that doesn't provoke them into doing something silly."[/i]
Should such private views be spoken at a large public gathering that will perceive our position to be skewered or otherwise ?
Will it benefit Singapore if we tell to the World that our bigger immediate neighbors are bullying us based on historical events that 'DO NOT REFLECT THE CURRENT POLITICS' between ourselves and our neighbors ? It certainly do not reflect the current good relationship we are having with Badawi and Bambang.
What was the purpose for LKY to pick such an important World Event to relive old history ?
This statement has recognised the fact that Singapore is experiencing a POSITIVE change with Badawi in office, compared with the raucaous period that we have had with Mahathir at the helm.
On the bridge and the half bridge to remove the Causeway, you made the position of your government clear that Malaysia respects legally binding agreements and acts in accordance with international law. This made unnecessary a reference to ITLOS and the International Court of Justice that would otherwise have been unavoidable. This respect for the law is the basis for sound long-term relations between us.
This statement is clearly to justify the continuation of an autocratic MONO-PARTY POLITICAL SYSTEM that exist only in COMMUNIST STATES.
I was explaining to a liberal audience of westerners who wanted to see a stronger opposition in Singapore, why Singapore needs a strong majority government, not a weak coalition that will hamper us in defending our national interests.
Singapore needs a strong government to maintain good relations with Indonesia and Malaysia, and to interact with Indonesian and Malaysian politicians who consider Singapore to be Chinese, and expect Singapore to be 'sensitive' and comply with their requests.
A strong opposition do not necessarily mean a weak Government. The liberal democracies of the First World nations have not produced any weak Governments despite the Opposition being strong.
A weak coalition is a result of an impoverished political system that have been caused by a monopolistic and autocratic system.
The feelings of Malaysian Chinese have been incited, as much as that from the Malaysian Malay and Indian Communities - and not to mention those from Indoensia.
On numerous occasions, Umno leaders, including Dr Mahathir and many others, have publicly warned Malaysian Malays that if they ever lose power, they risk the same fate as Malays in Singapore, whom they allege are marginalised and discriminated against (see Annex). And from time to time when Malaysian politicians attack Singapore fiercely over some bilateral issues, some of them tell us privately that we should just accept this as part of Malaysian politics and not react to these attacks.
Singapore understands the reality of Malaysian politics. We have never protested at these attacks on our multi-racial systems or our policies, except to clarify our own position when necessary. But we have to explain to our people the root cause of these difficulties in our bilateral relations. Otherwise Singaporeans will believe that their own government is doing wrong, either to our own people or to Malaysia. As for the international audience, with so many foreign embassy staff and foreign correspondents reporting on Singapore and Malaysia, plus tens of thousands of expatriate businessmen working in our two countries, these people will come to their own judgement of the true position regardless of what I say.
I have not said anything more than what I have said so many times before. In fact I have said less than what I had written in my memoirs published in 1998.
I had no intention to meddle in your politics. Indeed I do not have the power to influence Malaysia's politics or to incite the feelings of the Chinese in Malaysia.
LKY is too modest with the perception of his own influence, as surely he has accepted the many accolades showered on him from governments of First World Nations across the globe - from the US Congress, to the French and British Parliament, from Australia to Mainland China ?
This realisation should have been circusmpectfully considered before the remarks were made so quickly - 'off the cuff' - and spoken with such authority.
Since you took over as Prime Minister in November 2003, relations between our two countries have much improved. Singaporeans and, I believe, Malaysians too, appreciate this. I am sorry that what I said has caused you a great deal of discomfort. After a decade od troubled relations with your predecessor, it is the last thing I wanted.
Your sincerely
LEE KUAN YEW