Re : Govt should relook income qualifying levels
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Originally posted by Xenthar:
KNN, like that I should go commit suicide already.
[b]The article from the Straits Times Forum on 07 Oct 2006
In Singapore, it is neither the Malays nor the Chinese that are marginalised; it is the families earning $8,000 and more.
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Bluff who? if that time guys forsee that 8 bloody k wasn't enough can just stay wif parents or rent a room...since haven't have kids...save up a bloody big sum of money and plan ahead for setting aside some to raise babies and kids, some to renovate and pay off immdediate/ long term housing loans.
When its time one of the family member get a lower pay join to meet the 8k ceiling threshold and get a higher pay job after securing and settling into the flat. From the words i can assure that the couple must be high flyers confident of earning this amount of money right?
From what i read i can only assume that:
The couple infact at that moment in time enjoyed buying a property. They happily paid and service the loan and wanted to raise a fmaily afterwards but times have changed and their property no longer can make a profit in the open resale market. Thus they are now heavily in debt and unable to put a clean break off the situation and puts the blame on the government.
C'mon i expect some brain power and wisdom from a couple that is capable of earning a combined income of 8k. After all its easy to earn that money right -
Should we lambast the middle class simply because they too want a slice of the pie? If it were a fair world, everyone would demand their fair share of goodies. Sadly, it's not.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:It is the middle class rant against the subsidies given to poorer Singaporeans. They pay more taxes but they get less subsidies...essentially, they do not believe that the richer ones should help the poorer..
The government policy is correct. People like these can consider leaving Singapore to some other places where the taxes are even lower...good riddance to them
On the hand, it is true that it must still be more worthwhile to be earning 8k a month without the subsidies than earning less than 8k with the government subsidies. Welfarism saps a nation's strength.
The writer has raised some valid points concerning housing loans and the ineligibility to access any subsidies, leaving them completely out in the cold.
Granted subsidies are primarily meant to help the lower-income group, but that doesn't mean we neglect the average taxpayer as well. It simply means they are entitled to less goodies.
An 8K combined salary is relatively comfortable. How relative depends on the number of loans they have to pay and whether they have dependant parents that require significant maintenance such as medical check-ups, weekly physio etc. All in all, that sum can reduce quickly, leaving very little for savings.
While they remain off the priority list, the govt should at some point address this problem. -
All such expenses can be reflected and claimed over the yearly income tax declaration, including elderly handicapped parents and child/ children..the government has all that in place not only to help the poor but the middle class too. Its a policy that works for all if not one size that fits all. From the IRAS declaration one look the government can tell who are indeed stocking up in excess of wealthy.
As for the housing grant and eligibility the government has one in place and if the rich wants a share of the 'small' pie they should use their brains (as suggested with the job/ income switch thingy) and not ask for a review or change in the policy. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
subsidies, by their very nature, are designed to benefit and assist the under-privileged. I wouldn't call earning 8000 a month under-privileged, of course, it all depends on the loans the family have to service eh ? ...
Should we lambast the middle class simply because they too want a slice of the pie? If it were a fair world, everyone would demand their fair share of goodies. Sadly, it's not.
The writer has raised some valid points concerning housing loans and the ineligibility to access any subsidies, leaving them completely out in the cold.
Granted subsidies are primarily meant to help the lower-income group, but that doesn't mean we neglect the average taxpayer as well. It simply means they are entitled to less goodies.
An 8K combined salary is [b]relatively comfortable. How relative depends on the number of loans they have to pay and whether they have dependant parents that require significant maintenance such as medical check-ups, weekly physio etc. All in all, that sum can reduce quickly, leaving very little for savings.
While they remain off the priority list, the govt should at some point address this problem. [/b]
but then again, no one forced them to upgrade to a private property, no one pointed guns to their heads and forced them to take up loans, to fill shoes they are not quite ready to fill yet, no one asked them to keep up with the "joneses" when they can't .... if we go by that sort of logic, not even ten thousand dollars a month will suffice, no sum would, cos the family will just saddle themselves with more and more debts, no ? ... the goverment and society does not own anyone an obligation to provide them with a comfy cushy life in a private property and country-club weekends. I agree that we have an obligation to help the underclass of society, for no one must be left too far behind ... but this family and people like this hardly qualifies as such ....
don't blame anyone for your own materialism ! .... -
No offence, but i find it rather short-sighted to pass a sweeping comments based on their 8K combined salary and their request for options to alleviate their financial burden.Originally posted by Fatum:subsidies, by their very nature, are designed to benefit and assist the under-privileged. I wouldn't call earning 8000 a month under-privileged, of course, it all depends on the loans the family have to service eh ? ...
but then again, no one forced them to upgrade to a private property, no one pointed guns to their heads and forced them to take up loans, to fill shoes they are not quite ready to fill yet, no one asked them to keep up with the "joneses" when they can't .... if we go by that sort of logic, not even ten thousand dollars a month will suffice, no sum would, cos the family will just saddle themselves with more and more debts, no ? ... the goverment and society does not own anyone an obligation to provide them with a comfy cushy life in a private property and country-club weekends. I agree that we have an obligation to help the underclass of society, for no one must be left too far behind ... but this family and people like this hardly qualifies as such ....
don't blame anyone for your own materialism ! ....
First of all, they are eligible only for re-sale equivalent HDB flats; for a 5-room HDB re-sale, you're looking at market price of 400K at least. Coupled with various expenses such as renovation, furniture etc, you're easily looking at a >30+ yr long loan, even for a combined income of 8K, let alone one with less income.
In additon to other expenses i mentioned earlier, it can easily burn a hole in your pocket, leaving little savings. The fact that he is also planning a family means his daily expenses are simply going to skyrocket.
All he's asking for is a little help. The govt can of course, decline if they find his case insignificant. -
Ever felt or imagine how a cornered dog will fight for survival? But there are just so many loopholes here and there to justify that this8k income family actually need help. To quote a 400k reasle price on a 5-rm flat is hardly appropriate. If the family just need to buya flat that is complying to the income ceiling set by the government then there are more options opened too. Check out other areas and target low level units...better on the first level. Some newer 5-rm resale flats in the extreme west area are going at only S$280,000. Drop the renovation or pick one with a humble design with need only for the essential utility fixtures i do not see how they cannot let go of the existing property and transfer their new housing loan to service a flat at a lower/ shorter instalment/ loan period?Originally posted by BillyBong:No offence, but i find it rather short-sighted to pass a sweeping comments based on their 8K combined salary and their request for options to alleviate their financial burden.
First of all, they are eligible only for re-sale equivalent HDB flats; for a 5-room HDB re-sale, you're looking at market price of 400K at least. Coupled with various expenses such as renovation, furniture etc, you're easily looking at a >30+ yr long loan, even for a combined income of 8K, let alone one with less income.
In additon to other expenses i mentioned earlier, it can easily burn a hole in your pocket, leaving little savings. The fact that he is also planning a family means his daily expenses are simply going to skyrocket.
All he's asking for is a little help. The govt can of course, decline if they find his case insignificant. -
I understand where you're coming from, and in other circumstances, I'd have agreed with you that a reexamination of the income levels wouldn't be out of place .... however,Originally posted by BillyBong:No offence, but i find it rather short-sighted to pass a sweeping comments based on their 8K combined salary and their request for options to alleviate their financial burden.
First of all, they are eligible only for re-sale equivalent HDB flats; for a 5-room HDB re-sale, you're looking at market price of 400K at least. Coupled with various expenses such as renovation, furniture etc, you're easily looking at a >30+ yr long loan, even for a combined income of 8K, let alone one with less income.
In additon to other expenses i mentioned earlier, it can easily burn a hole in your pocket, leaving little savings. The fact that he is also planning a family means his daily expenses are simply going to skyrocket.
All he's asking for is a little help. The govt can of course, decline if they find his case insignificant.
would you say that a re-sale HDB flat would still be cheaper than a private property ? ... did they think about savings and such then when they bought it ? ...
why then, did they buy a private property instead of an HDB resale ? The fact that they "reluctantly" bought a private property indicated that they thought they were ready for the leap ... that HDB wasn't good enought for them ... it's only now that they are saddled with negative equity from the downturn in prices, that they are whinning ....
believe me, this letter would never have appeared if private property prices were still sky-rocketing ... -
I really would like to see this couple's spending habits. Perhaps having dinner at Morton's every other night and owning 2 BMW 7 series might be factors. Couples earning far less have been able to afford private housing and even support a young kid.
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I certainly won't dispute your arguments, but there are plenty of considerations involved when buying a flat. Most families prefer to stay close by to their parents. This helps during child care by the grandparents.Originally posted by pipipopo:Ever felt or imagine how a cornered dog will fight for survival? But there are just so many loopholes here and there to justify that this8k income family actually need help. To quote a 400k reasle price on a 5-rm flat is hardly appropriate. If the family just need to buya flat that is complying to the income ceiling set by the government then there are more options opened too. Check out other areas and target low level units...better on the first level. Some newer 5-rm resale flats in the extreme west area are going at only S$280,000. Drop the renovation or pick one with a humble design with need only for the essential utility fixtures i do not see how they cannot let go of the existing property and transfer their new housing loan to service a flat at a lower/ shorter instalment/ loan period?
At the same time, like you said, to purchase a flat for possibly a bargain 280K in the extreme west/east may make absolutely no sense, especially if your parents reside in central parts of Singapore. Even for that price, if i'm going to spend so much time travelling, and the added transportation costs, i will trash-can the idea of staying at opposite ends of SG due ot obvious inconvenience.
Average price of renovations is gonna cost something like 30K, regardless of humility, design etc. You have to consider a certain standard of quality. Imagine your cheap laminated flooring getting a termite infestation barely months after you move in! -
I totally agree about the property price fluctuating upwards.Originally posted by Fatum:I understand where you're coming from, and in other circumstances, I'd have agreed with you that a reexamination of the income levels wouldn't be out of place .... however,
would you say that a re-sale HDB flat would still be cheaper than a private property ? ... did they think about savings and such then when they bought it ? ...
why then, did they buy a private property instead of an HDB resale ? The fact that they "reluctantly" bought a private property indicated that they thought they were ready for the leap ... that HDB wasn't good enought for them ... it's only now that they are saddled with negative equity from the downturn in prices, that they are whinning ....
believe me, this letter would never have appeared if private property prices were still sky-rocketing ...
The truth is, there should be a ruling that families are only allowed one property . People nowadays are abusing the loophole to stay in landed property while leasing their HDB apartments for rent, or vice versa.
The people who really need homes find themselves competiting with those who are simply prospecting for apartments to rent out.
It's definitely one of the talking points as to why a family would rant about their financial difficulty but yet go out of their way to purchase private apartments.
I have a friend who bought an AMK resale flat for 420K. After inexpensive renovations, HDB parking etc, he calculated that with the amount of cash he spent on his new home, he might have considered topping up a little more to stay in a condo instead and enjoy the facilities offered. One of his concerns was that the price of HDB car lot parking was extremely high on a monthly basis. -
An average joe with average income with simple expectations of life is the happiest in my opinion...
For me, i'd rather have a nice warm little home, an at-least-engine-still-can-work car with my kids running up & down happily, than a big house, a luxury car & a lavish lifestyle with loan interests shooting up, and getting heart attack from the shares going up & down...
Maybe I'd never been rich, so I don't know... My comments are based on my personal experience.... My parents earned a combined income of less than 1k... But they managed to give me a simple and happy life throughout... They focus more on giving me love than to fight too hard for materials...
For a house, money is an issue. For a home, the main ingredient is Love, in my opinion...
Now, what's up with the I-Only-Have-8k...
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Originally posted by BillyBong:
The point of argument now is the '8k duet' having problems servicing the housing loan of their property. If this is the only way out then the child care thing has to be worked out one way or another. With their combined income they can hire a maid, or have their parents stay at their flat during the weekdays. How about school, you want to bring in the location of the school next for the discussion.
I certainly won't dispute your arguments, but there are plenty of considerations involved when buying a flat. Most families prefer to stay close by to their parents. This helps during child care by the grandparents.
At the same time, like you said, to purchase a flat for possibly a bargain 280K in the [b]extreme west/east may make absolutely no sense, especially if your parents reside in central parts of Singapore. Even for that price, if i'm going to spend so much time travelling, and the added transportation costs, i will trash-can the idea of staying at opposite ends of SG due ot obvious inconvenience.
Average price of renovations is gonna cost something like 30K, regardless of humility, design etc. You have to consider a certain standard of quality. Imagine your cheap laminated flooring getting a termite infestation barely months after you move in!
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I find that people with 8K income give so many excuses...i do not see the lower income group of families grunting and complaining? If at work the '8k duet' complain like what they do in front of their bosses they sure will never get to have an 8k job for so long i bet.
Do not talk about 'luxury' now when you are heavily in debt. Talk real 'quality' in 'the necessity'. Ceramic tiles, sturdy window grilles and pipings, strong gate and fire-proof door will not cost you much. Lightings good and bright enough to lit the home are the extras you need.
With an 8k income it will be no problem for one of the family member to buy an affordable car for family use. Even without it, the wise combination of public transport and the ocassional taxi fares for emergencies with be insignificat for an '8k duet'. -
So are the services offered in a condo (e.g swimming pool/ car parking/ secirity etc) free? Are there any monthly 'additional' fees a condo unit owner has to pay?Originally posted by BillyBong:I totally agree about the property price fluctuating upwards.
The truth is, there should be a ruling that families are only allowed one property . People nowadays are abusing the loophole to stay in landed property while leasing their HDB apartments for rent, or vice versa.
The people who really need homes find themselves competiting with those who are simply prospecting for apartments to rent out.
It's definitely one of the talking points as to why a family would rant about their financial difficulty but yet go out of their way to purchase private apartments.
I have a friend who bought an AMK resale flat for 420K. After inexpensive renovations, HDB parking etc, he calculated that with the amount of cash he spent on his new home, he might have considered topping up a little more to stay in a condo instead and enjoy the facilities offered. One of his concerns was that the price of HDB car lot parking was extremely high on a monthly basis.
I really do not mind paying a little more on top of a 5-rm flat to go for a condo to enjoy the extra facilities if the extra facilities (car park and swimimng pool) are TOTALLY FREE without any additional monthly payments/ charges or in any other names they chose to call to worry about. -
The issue here is about 30 years commitment, and it is 2 person income involve, can you say the job they have will last for that long with the same pay? Those 40yrs old above have feel the pinch and fear of losing the job everyday. There are many factors involve in this topic which are not address.
Govt seriouly need to look into this, some will say we have sign a contract to work indirectly for the govt for 30yrs and make sure we pay up our flat without fail. On the govt view, if we all payup our flat and that will result in many of them will not work hard for their living and that reduce the competiveness of SG. So u die die had to pay and pay. -
Like i said, for the lump sum price of monthly season tickets for a single car at any HDB carpark, one can consider topping up a little more to get the benefits of gym/pool/tennis courts etc. And of course, car-parking will also be covered under that rate.Originally posted by pipipopo:So are the services offered in a condo (e.g swimming pool/ car parking/ secirity etc) free? Are there any monthly 'additional' fees a condo unit owner has to pay?
I really do not mind paying a little more on top of a 5-rm flat to go for a condo to enjoy the extra facilities if the extra facilities (car park and swimimng pool) are TOTALLY FREE without any additional monthly payments/ charges or in any other names they chose to call to worry about.
That's the primary reason why more people with dual income are seriously migrating to private apartments. The difference in cost for some units has reached such a new low that it may not be worth purchasing a re-sale flat at all. -
No. The point of argument is not over the monetary value of his 8K dual income, but rather WHY WOULD an 8K dual earning family face such difficulty?Originally posted by pipipopo:The point of argument now is the '8k duet' having problems servicing the housing loan of their property. If this is the only way out then the child care thing has to be worked out one way or another. With their combined income they can hire a maid, or have their parents stay at their flat during the weekdays. How about school, you want to bring in the location of the school next for the discussion.
I find that people with 8K income give so many excuses...i do not see the lower income group of families grunting and complaining? If at work the '8k duet' complain like what they do in front of their bosses they sure will never get to have an 8k job for so long i bet.
Do not talk about 'luxury' now when you are heavily in debt. Talk real 'quality' in 'the necessity'. Ceramic tiles, sturdy window grilles and pipings, strong gate and fire-proof door will not cost you much. Lightings good and bright enough to lit the home are the extras you need.
With an 8k income it will be no problem for one of the family member to buy an affordable car for family use. Even without it, the wise combination of public transport and the ocassional taxi fares for emergencies with be insignificat for an '8k duet'.
To simple folks, a naive reasoning would be that he's a poor financial planner.
Based on the assumption that he contributes half of the 8K wage package and the fact that he got his article published, all points to a well-paid professional with a decent command of the language. He certainly doesn't sound like some idiot who loss his money to gambling.
It is more than likely that aspects of his family life make it impossible to fully utilize all of his earnings to his full benefit, circumstances he has chosen not to include in his article. -
Why alot of flat unsold, cos many family earn more than 8k mah! so govt indirectly screwup their plan. Endup more and more condo, even ah beng also need to buy condo liao.
No, sorry not govt screw their plan, they smart , sell land make money, cos HDB earn less mah! -
can identify somewhat though, you don't do well enuff to be rich or to be really comfortable at the same time you are paying thru your nose while not gettign help at all. basically you are neither here nor there and face the cons of both classes.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:It is the middle class rant against the subsidies given to poorer Singaporeans. They pay more taxes but they get less subsidies...essentially, they do not believe that the richer ones should help the poorer..
The government policy is correct. People like these can consider leaving Singapore to some other places where the taxes are even lower...good riddance to them
On the hand, it is true that it must still be more worthwhile to be earning 8k a month without the subsidies than earning less than 8k with the government subsidies. Welfarism saps a nation's strength.
of course i would say the couple in question might jsut be abit above middle income
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When the couple have children, one parent will be effectively out of job. Have anyone considered that?
Both parent continue to work. Hire a maid? So the children can learn to speak bahasa better English? Or let them grow up with grandparents and become child deliquence? Look at the current society and look at how many problem child comes from families where they do not get attention from their parents.
Like what BillyBong said, analysis and read between the lines. I think this couple knows what they are doing and don't want to have kids for the sake of having it. They probably have no problem with their current lifestyle without children but read that they are facing these challenges now because they want to have children. They may be thinking of downgrading for the sake of the child but kenna jammed by HDB ruling.
If they are as educated as BillyBong says, they probably did a lot of planning for what's best for their kid. And what's best needs money. These are acts of responsible parents.
Of course, anyone can live reasonably well with $8000. Our bloody Gahmen gives us only $350 a month when we retire. But should we go back to the stone age? People progress, not regress.
As for the thread starter. I think you should improve your English and read carefully. Where did the author claim credit for Singapore success? He is just saying that he did his part also and should deserve the same benefits as others. Maybe you're just jealous about them earning $8000.
We should not be blinded by anger just because this couple makes "slightly" more than $8000 a month. If he makes like $20k then he should go to hell but throw at stone in Raffles Place and there's a 90% chance it'll land on someone earning more than $4000 a month.
$8000 alot or not I don't know lah. Depends on how you spend. But for a MacDonald's meal to cost between $6-7 nowadays and $1.50 for a freaking mug of coke, I think that $8000 mark that has been there for ages need to be moving upwards. -
I would interprete reluctantly as - they want to buy HDB but cannot, no choice so buy private instead.Originally posted by Fatum:I understand where you're coming from, and in other circumstances, I'd have agreed with you that a reexamination of the income levels wouldn't be out of place .... however,
would you say that a re-sale HDB flat would still be cheaper than a private property ? ... did they think about savings and such then when they bought it ? ...
why then, did they buy a private property instead of an HDB resale ? The fact that they "reluctantly" bought a private property indicated that they thought they were ready for the leap ... that HDB wasn't good enought for them ... it's only now that they are saddled with negative equity from the downturn in prices, that they are whinning ....
believe me, this letter would never have appeared if private property prices were still sky-rocketing ...
From the letter, the author is saying they got no savings because of this. That where their problem is.
I think you may be right about the negative equity thingy and they probably can't sell their home now. so cannot have children.
But I don't think the author is whinning. The can simply have children later. But the author is trying to highlight the issue that they also pay tax, so why penalize them for working hard and earning more money? they also singaporean so deserves the benefit - just like citizen in PP deserves upgrading also. -
I think this is a case of the age old argument...
Higher income = pay more tax <> equal benefits.
This is Singapore. Government trying to keep everyone poor. Look at the policies. In plain words, it means you have to be poor to get benefits. If you are rich, you get marginalized.
Ultimate aim is to make everyone poor.
But seriously, you either pay more tax and get the same benefit or you pay the same tax and get less benefit. It sucks to be in that income range when you pay more and get zero benefits.
So they pay tax only to get a voting right as a citizen. And for all you know, they don't even get a chance to vote.
I symapthize with the couple -
but there's no income gap on hdb wor..Originally posted by anonymouscoward:I would interprete reluctantly as - they want to buy HDB but cannot, no choice so buy private instead.
From the letter, the author is saying they got no savings because of this. That where their problem is.
I think you may be right about the negative equity thingy and they probably can't sell their home now. so cannot have children.
But I don't think the author is whinning. The can simply have children later. But the author is trying to highlight the issue that they also pay tax, so why penalize them for working hard and earning more money? they also singaporean so deserves the benefit - just like citizen in PP deserves upgrading also.
just that he's not eligible for additional subsidies mah..
as long as they're first timers, they're eligible to 30k grant from the govt.. and additional 10k grant if they're livin near parents..
and resale =/= more ex...
my 4 room up north is cheaper than a 5 room in sengkang.. but the place is almost as big.. mine's 104 sqft.. the one in sengkang is 110... -
i mean income cap
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If at any point in time you are out of a job or if your income level falls lower than 8k then u r elligible to buy/ downgrade to a 4 rom flat..prob solved. enuff said.Originally posted by T.Ryousuke:The issue here is about 30 years commitment, and it is 2 person income involve, can you say the job they have will last for that long with the same pay? Those 40yrs old above have feel the pinch and fear of losing the job everyday. There are many factors involve in this topic which are not address.
Govt seriouly need to look into this, some will say we have sign a contract to work indirectly for the govt for 30yrs and make sure we pay up our flat without fail. On the govt view, if we all payup our flat and that will result in many of them will not work hard for their living and that reduce the competiveness of SG. So u die die had to pay and pay.
If i have a family to feed or a family to start, if i have a housing loan to pay off...i work extra hard for myself and my future. That will sure increase the competiveness of Sg.