ERP on ECP to rise
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Expensive is one thing.Originally posted by precipice:public transport also getting more and more expensive.
But having to squeeze into the buses or MRT carriages everyday and having to fight tooth and nail just to get off at your next stop?
That's a whole new matter.
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TS, you want to include the IR?
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If the government limits the number of COEs, ie. control car ownership rather than usage, the limited number of COEs will all go to the highest bidder. It is possible to scrap the ERP if the number of cars on the road is drastlically cut, but people here will kpkb about only the elites can have cars.
So they have relaxed car ownership and allow more COEs but introduce ERP instead. More people can own a car but the ERP is introduced to discourage car usage.
I would prefer the first option. Leave the cars for multimillionnaires. Scrap the ERP but let the COEs rise to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It will be kinder to the environment but people here will also complain.
Singaporeans are born whiners. -
You want more comfort, you pay for it.Originally posted by charlize:Expensive is one thing.
But having to squeeze into the buses or MRT carriages everyday and having to fight tooth and nail just to get off at your next stop?
That's a whole new matter. -
Hey oxford mushroom, you still have not told me if you live or study in the UK.
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bothOriginally posted by charlize:Hey oxford mushroom, you still have not told me if you live or study in the UK.
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I agree with you on this one. We should be responsible to the environment and it is a cleaner system that will definitely work.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I would prefer the first option. Leave the cars for multimillionnaires. Scrap the ERP but let the COEs rise to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It will be kinder to the environment but people here will also complain.
The pre-requisite is that the public transportation system must be good. More frequency, more choices between MRT and Bus (rather than making the public take a combination and increasing transportation time), making it more convenient like is was (instead of switching many buses to get to a single destination).
The current system is crap and I suspect that the govt knows it. Two advantages is that they can appease the public and that they can collect more money from COE and ERP (especially ERP). That's probably why they still choose it.
If you buy a 60k car, would you park it at home rather than spend $2 for ERP entry? So do you think ERP will work?? -
i won't mind the cars being limited to elites if the cars were made super expensive( hey its anotehr form of tax) and the public transport was made much better and more efficient.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If the government limits the number of COEs, ie. control car ownership rather than usage, the limited number of COEs will all go to the highest bidder. It is possible to scrap the ERP if the number of cars on the road is drastlically cut, but people here will kpkb about only the elites can have cars.
So they have relaxed car ownership and allow more COEs but introduce ERP instead. More people can own a car but the ERP is introduced to discourage car usage.
I would prefer the first option. Leave the cars for multimillionnaires. Scrap the ERP but let the COEs rise to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It will be kinder to the environment but people here will also complain.
Singaporeans are born whiners.
+ there is only 1 lane for the cars and implement systems so that there are still massive jams for the cars
since i'm sadly not a elite i should prob try to get more from and hope life gets difficult for the elites
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To argue with a pig u will become likewise!!!This ppl has no brain one lah!!
U know how much ERP collected ? S$1.5 million per day.
U know how much car parking fees collected per day? exceed S$2 millions plus.
U know how much COE collected per month? about S$30 millions x12 months.
ERP 20 days x S$1.5 mill =S$30 mX 12 months=360mil
Car parking fees 24 days x S$2mill= $48 millionx12 say S$500 mil
All in excluding road tax ave S$500 per car X 1 million cars = S$500 million
Every yr , our sg gov collected S$ 1.4 billion from stupid sporeans including me car owners!!! -
Source? Pls quote, otherwise it looks phoney.Originally posted by foomwee88:To argue with a pig u will become likewise!!!This ppl has no brain one lah!!
U know how much ERP collected ? S$1.5 million per day.
U know how much car parking fees collected per day? exceed S$2 millions plus.
U know how much COE collected per month? about S$30 millions x12 months.
ERP 20 days x S$1.5 mill =S$30 mX 12 months=360mil
Car parking fees 24 days x S$2mill= $48 millionx12 say S$500 mil
All in excluding road tax ave S$500 per car X 1 million cars = S$500 million
Every yr , our sg gov collected S$ 1.4 billion from stupid sporeans including me car owners!!! -
So u live and study in the UK and if I'm not wrong, you study Medicine. Either ur family is rich or u went there on a scholarship. You have a bright future ahead of u and u will definitely fall under the "high income" category sometime in future.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:both
So pls fcuking show some empathy for those who are ordinary graduates. Poly or uni. And also to those lorry, taxi drivers, techincians, salespeople who earn $1,000 plus a month with 1 mouth or more to feed.
They whine for a reason. If u had to wear their shoes for the next ten years and look at yourself speaking, I guarantee u would be aghast.
I feel sorry for Singapore if people like u enter politics in future. -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:If the government limits the number of COEs, ie. control car ownership rather than usage, the limited number of COEs will all go to the highest bidder. It is possible to scrap the ERP if the number of cars on the road is drastlically cut, but people here will kpkb about only the elites can have cars.
There need not be such a drastic move. Remember the 70s and 80s where there's a minimum downpayment rule (eg 30% of car's value) before he is eligible to buy a car? Many in the upper middle class would be able to afford.
People kpkb nvm, citizens will understand sooner or later. Would the average joe rather have money, then own a car OR earn only $1-2k, then buy a car. With this relaxation of COEs over the past 3 years, so many people have incurred tremendous loans. Is that a gd sign for the country? So many of my peers, though uni grads, have no money to get married. Why? To pursue a lifestyle and own a car. Who suffers?
So they have relaxed car ownership and allow more COEs but introduce ERP instead. More people can own a car but the ERP is introduced to discourage car usage.
Once COEs are relaxed, the amount of revenue collected from fines, ERP, season parking, rd taxes and radio licenses is exponential. Think about it. And goodness sake, ERP does not discourage car usage. If it does, then hefty rd taxes and car insurance would have discouraged car usage a long time ago.
I would prefer the first option. Leave the cars for multimillionnaires. Scrap the ERP but let the COEs rise to hundreds of thousands of dollars. It will be kinder to the environment but people here will also complain.
Refer to my first para.
Singaporeans are born whiners. -
haha...here comes Sgforum's famous farting cow...Originally posted by foomwee88:To argue with a pig u will become likewise!!!This ppl has no brain one lah!!
U know how much ERP collected ? S$1.5 million per day.
U know how much car parking fees collected per day? exceed S$2 millions plus.
U know how much COE collected per month? about S$30 millions x12 months.
ERP 20 days x S$1.5 mill =S$30 mX 12 months=360mil
Car parking fees 24 days x S$2mill= $48 millionx12 say S$500 mil
All in excluding road tax ave S$500 per car X 1 million cars = S$500 million
Every yr , our sg gov collected S$ 1.4 billion from stupid sporeans including me car owners!!! (http://www.show.me.uk/site/news/STO873.html)
go away...you are contributing to global warming -
ERP will work as far as the people will bear. People make a decision whether or not to dump the car and switch to public transport. For the sake of a little convenience and a seat on the way to work, they are prepared to pay the ERP. The reason why the roads are still crowded indicates that the ERP is not high enough to discourage people. Half-hearted measures will not do. The government is wrong in trying to please Singaporeans who want to own cars (and allowing more COEs), whilst not imposing punitive ERP prices (which is necessary to control car usage).
It's either one or the other. Measures in the 90s will not do now when incomes and expectations have risen. There are too many poly/JC students and undergrads driving cars when they are not even working. You either make car ownership very expensive or the ERP so punitive that only a select group can afford it.
Singaporeans want to have their cake and eat it. They want to own cars and use it as well. It was before one election when there was a great deal of clamour for more COEs in the media. The government bowed to public pressure, issued more COEs and tried to control car usage with ERP.
I say that the ERP prices are not high enough to discourage car usage. London has imposed a congestion charge of 8GBP (S$24) within central London (like our restricted zone). It has been successful in cutting congestion and pollution ( http://www.conocophillips.co.uk/stations/autogas/Latest_News/London_Congestion_Charge_Environmental_Success.htm).
An ERP charge of $3 will not discourage motorists from using their cars during peak hours. It should rise to a punitive amount, at least $10 per gantry to have sufficient deterrent effect. However, I feel all public transport including taxis should be exempt. I believe taxis should be included as part of public transport and should be kept cheap to encourage people to give up their cars. -
Originally posted by Rock^Star:People kpkb nvm, citizens will understand sooner or later. Would the average joe rather have money, then own a car OR earn only $1-2k, then buy a car. With this relaxation of COEs over the past 3 years, so many people have incurred tremendous loans. Is that a gd sign for the country? So many of my peers, though uni grads, have no money to get married. Why? To pursue a lifestyle and own a car. Who suffers?
The fact is that Singaporeans do not understand. Many of these young punks would rather go into debt in order to impress their gf. They choose to incur the tremendous loans and have no money to get married. Whose fault is that? Don't blame the government for an individual's folly. Poor Joe cannot afford a car but he die-die wants to buy one, even if he has to borrow from ah-long. Are you suggesting we need a super nanny of a government to come in and stop him?
Grow up, Singaporeans!Once COEs are relaxed, the amount of revenue collected from fines, ERP, season parking, rd taxes and radio licenses is exponential.
That is good. The revenue collected from those who choose to pollute the environment and contribute to congestion can go to improving public transport infrastructure and building more roads.Think about it. And goodness sake, ERP does not discourage car usage. If it does, then hefty rd taxes and car insurance would have discouraged car usage a long time ago.
They do, just that the fees are not hefty enough, relative to the cost of a car. People will rant but will still pay the $3 ERP since they have already spent 200k on their car. Raise the ERP three times, raise the fees until it really hurts...and people will realize that it is better to pick up their gf in a Mercedez cab. -
My sis is in town will talk 2 her,liar!!!Originally posted by oxford mushroom:ERP will work as far as the people will bear. People make a decision whether or not to dump the car and switch to public transport. For the sake of a little convenience and a seat on the way to work, they are prepared to pay the ERP. The reason why the roads are still crowded indicates that the ERP is not high enough to discourage people. Half-hearted measures will not do. The government is wrong in trying to please Singaporeans who want to own cars (and allowing more COEs), whilst not imposing punitive ERP prices (which is necessary to control car usage).
It's either one or the other. Measures in the 90s will not do now when incomes and expectations have risen. There are too many poly/JC students and undergrads driving cars when they are not even working. You either make car ownership very expensive or the ERP so punitive that only a select group can afford it.
Singaporeans want to have their cake and eat it. They want to own cars and use it as well. It was before one election when there was a great deal of clamour for more COEs in the media. The government bowed to public pressure, issued more COEs and tried to control car usage with ERP.
I say that the ERP prices are not high enough to discourage car usage. London has imposed a congestion charge of 8GBP (S$24) within central London (like our restricted zone). It has been successful in cutting congestion and pollution ( http://www.conocophillips.co.uk/stations/autogas/Latest_News/London_Congestion_Charge_Environmental_Success.htm).
An ERP charge of $3 will not discourage motorists from using their cars during peak hours. It should rise to a punitive amount, at least $10 per gantry to have sufficient deterrent effect. However, I feel all public transport including taxis should be exempt. I believe taxis should be included as part of public transport and should be kept cheap to encourage people to give up their cars. -
When I take bus 30 everyday, I noticed a lot of cars on the ECP which have only one person. And there are massive jams on ECP everyday just because of these "single drivers"... Maybe the government should try to attract people to carpool. If 4 people can share one car instead of 4 people driving 4 cars, we can reduce traffic by a large extent and make the environment cleaner! As an alternative, the same 4 people can ride motorbikes instead. At least 4 motorbikes occupy less road space and pollute less than 4 cars. In the past, the government promoted "Park & Ride" at major interchanges and MRT stations, but what happen now? "Park & Ride" is so rare nowadays that many people don't even know such a term exist! Why did the government forget park & ride?
If the government want to increase ERP, please target cars with only one driver. Or offer incentives for car-pool vehicles. Promote park & ride. Improve public transportation to encourage more drivers to switch to public transport. When I visited Seattle (USA), I was impressed with the dedicated lanes on expressways for buses and car-pool vehicles. Maybe Singapore can do the same on CTE, PIE and ECP and introduced special lanes for high-density vehicles.
One terrible thing that Singapore did was to cut a large number of bus services when the NEL was built... Many people who relied on services such as 501 and 502 suddenly lack direct services from their home to their workplaces. To many people, they prefer a direct and more comfortable service rather than to take a feeder bus, change to NEL, and change to SMRT trains at Dhoby Ghaut/Outram Park. Hence, when the direct bus services were withdrawn, many people chose to drive instead of taking NEL... and the result? The CTE is clogged everyday, while the NEL is not fully utilized. Later, the ERP was raised on CTE, but what is the point? With a higher ERP on CTE, people clog up other roads instead. Same for ECP... With a higher ERP on ECP, people will clog up Nicole Highway or Kallang Road or PIE... Instead of raising ERP, why not focus on new bus services that travel along ECP?
Whenever I'm on a bus 30 stuck in a jam on ECP, my heart hurts. Why are there so many selfish people who drive one car all by himself/herself, and yet, public transport supporters like me who take bus every day are the ones who suffer the effects of traffic jams? -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:The fact is that Singaporeans do not understand. Many of these young punks would rather go into debt in order to impress their gf. They choose to incur the tremendous loans and have no money to get married. Whose fault is that? Don't blame the government for an individual's folly. Poor Joe cannot afford a car but he die-die wants to buy one, even if he has to borrow from ah-long. Are you suggesting we need a super nanny of a government to come in and stop him?
A government's policies shape the nation and its culture. If the 30% downpayment had stayed, there wouldn't be any poor joe wearing some shoes that are too big for his feet. And nannying wouldn't even come into play. This is the government's policy error even if they had wanted to "let more ordinary folks own cars".
Grow up, Singaporeans!
That is good. The revenue collected from those who choose to pollute the environment and contribute to congestion can go to improving public transport infrastructure and building more roads.
That's true but how much of revenue collected actually goes to the above? All the revenue collected from car owners every year amount to billions. Multiply that by ten years and the money is ten fold.
They do, just that the fees are not hefty enough, relative to the cost of a car. People will rant but will still pay the $3 ERP since they have already spent 200k on their car. Raise the ERP three times, raise the fees until it really hurts...and people will realize that it is better to pick up their gf in a Mercedez cab.
So you are saying that ERP does reduce car usage but the fees are not hefty enough to achieve the desired effect? LPPL statement here right. ERP does not reduce car usage at all. Cars can choose to bypass expressways in the mornings to avoid ERP. Cars that do not want to go thru the city ERP can park somewhere nearby and take a bus/mrt down. And ERP will never be raised as much as 2 or 3 times in the near future. -
Try owning a car and u will know it's not easy to have strangers in your car every morning.Originally posted by autumncs:Whenever I'm on a bus 30 stuck in a jam on ECP, my heart hurts. Why are there so many selfish people who drive one car all by himself/herself, and yet, public transport supporters like me who take bus every day are the ones who suffer the effects of traffic jams?
Traffic jams are a fact in every major city in the world. S'pore's jams are still manageable. Try KL, Bangkok or HK, it's much worse. -
I think u r donkey!!!!Originally posted by Rock^Star:Source? Pls quote, otherwise it looks phoney.
Dont how 2 count ma!!! suck!!!! -
every dog has its day!!! yr day is numbered!!!Originally posted by oxford mushroom:haha...here comes Sgforum's famous farting cow... (http://www.show.me.uk/site/news/STO873.html)
go away...you are contributing to global warming -
My sis said u r liar!!! all lie no true!!!Originally posted by oxford mushroom:They do, just that the fees are not hefty enough, relative to the cost of a car. People will rant but will still pay the $3 ERP since they have already spent 200k on their car. Raise the ERP three times, raise the fees until it really hurts...and people will realize that it is better to pick up their gf in a Mercedez cab.
cant u be a dog psle std!!!
2ook sporeans oversears u still want to lie like a dog!!!! -
I know the figures do makes sense. Just quote the source. Simple as that.Originally posted by foomwee88:I think u r donkey!!!!
Dont how 2 count ma!!! suck!!!! -
At the end of the day, citizens of a country are but just mere pawns manipulated by the govt. The govt has to be responsible.
An eg:If there are no laws in a country, then rapes and killings go on a rampage. Shd the citizens blame the govt for it? YES.
Another eg: North Koreans are fearful to speak up against their leaders. Reason being that such actions result in severe punishment. This is due to their govt? YES
A govt's policies shape the culture and behaviour of it's people. A relaxation of COEs and downpayment ruling has resulted in a lot of "no money" car wannabes buying cars. Govt's fault? YES and it does not justify the amount of revenue collected in exchange for a mountain of debt to the people. -
I like your ideas and I completely agree with you. Car-pool has been tried before and it had a limited amount of success when the government introduced restricted zones in the 1970s. Cars with at least 4 persons within were exempt from the charge. The reason why it did not work is given by Rock^Star. Singaporeans are too selfish and treasure their privacy too much to share a car.Originally posted by autumncs:When I take bus 30 everyday, I noticed a lot of cars on the ECP which have only one person. And there are massive jams on ECP everyday just because of these "single drivers"... Maybe the government should try to attract people to carpool. If 4 people can share one car instead of 4 people driving 4 cars, we can reduce traffic by a large extent and make the environment cleaner! As an alternative, the same 4 people can ride motorbikes instead. At least 4 motorbikes occupy less road space and pollute less than 4 cars. In the past, the government promoted "Park & Ride" at major interchanges and MRT stations, but what happen now? "Park & Ride" is so rare nowadays that many people don't even know such a term exist! Why did the government forget park & ride?
If the government want to increase ERP, please target cars with only one driver. Or offer incentives for car-pool vehicles. Promote park & ride. Improve public transportation to encourage more drivers to switch to public transport. When I visited Seattle (USA), I was impressed with the dedicated lanes on expressways for buses and car-pool vehicles. Maybe Singapore can do the same on CTE, PIE and ECP and introduced special lanes for high-density vehicles.
One terrible thing that Singapore did was to cut a large number of bus services when the NEL was built... Many people who relied on services such as 501 and 502 suddenly lack direct services from their home to their workplaces. To many people, they prefer a direct and more comfortable service rather than to take a feeder bus, change to NEL, and change to SMRT trains at Dhoby Ghaut/Outram Park. Hence, when the direct bus services were withdrawn, many people chose to drive instead of taking NEL... and the result? The CTE is clogged everyday, while the NEL is not fully utilized. Later, the ERP was raised on CTE, but what is the point? With a higher ERP on CTE, people clog up other roads instead. Same for ECP... With a higher ERP on ECP, people will clog up Nicole Highway or Kallang Road or PIE... Instead of raising ERP, why not focus on new bus services that travel along ECP?
Whenever I'm on a bus 30 stuck in a jam on ECP, my heart hurts. Why are there so many selfish people who drive one car all by himself/herself, and yet, public transport supporters like me who take bus every day are the ones who suffer the effects of traffic jams?
Park and Ride does not work because the cost of ERP is not punitive enough. Motorists have made the capital investment in their cars and paid their road tax. The additional amount they pay in ERP is nothing compared to what they have already invested. On top of that, once they factor in the MRT fare, car park charges and the loss of 'prestige' walking to the office from a crowded MRT train, this option no longer becomes attractive. That's why for such schemes to work, the ERP must rise further to punitive levels and there must be greater discounts for car park/MRT fare for motorists who participate. This is something the government must consider...but for it to work, ERP prices must rise higher.
It can work. The costs of driving in London is so high (congestion charge, parking charges) and traffic so congested outside the Congestion Zone that most people use public transport to go to work. There are lots of people who live in Oxford and work in London. They park their cars near the coach station, take the 1.5 hour coach ride to London and transfer to the Underground to go to work each day.
The reason why many parallel bus services were withdrawn when the NEL came up was of course a typical business decision. The bus companies thought that the passenger numbers will drastically drop when the NEL came up and it would no longer be economical to run a service when the buses are empty.
If what you say is true and there is a demand for parallel bus services despite the NEL, write to the bus companies to re-consider. If there is money to be earned on a route, they will not turn it down. However, perhaps you are the minority and most people prefer the NEL.
I like the suggestion of allowing car pool vehicles to use bus lanes. We need incentives like these to persuade Singaporeans to abandon their vehicles. More carrots to entice them and we also need to use a bigger stick to dissuade others from car ownership.