‘Muslim baptism’ SMS prank backfires
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New Straits Times 9 Nov 06
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/nst/Thursday/Frontpage/20061109074908/Article/index_html
SMS threat: IGP briefs Perak Sultan over issue
IPOH: Police yesterday raised their concerns over the SMS issue in an hour-long audience with the Sultan of Perak.
For details point to the above url. -
Ok, so it has been proven that CNA aren't very good at what is supposed to be their forte. Back to the topic.
I think the police are focusing their efforts on the wrong issue. IMO, They should be trying to round up the dicks who showed up at the church! Still they are a muslim country and I suppose they are at liberty to protect what they value since it is their counrtry... -
Yes, this is a frightening part.Originally posted by scabstermooch:Ok, so it has been proven that CNA aren't very good at what is supposed to be their forte. Back to the topic.
I think the police are focusing their efforts on the wrong issue. IMO, They should be trying to round up the dicks who showed up at the church! Still they are a muslim country and I suppose they are at liberty to protect what they value since it is their counrtry...
The Polices were aware of the SMS. They were aware of the coming together of the Muslim mobs.
Would they allow the mobs to disrupt and riot if the SMS message was true? From the past records, I afraid that they have to stand aside and let it happen. They are just outgunned and outnumbered by the mobs. -
Then lan lan die lor!
The malaysian chinese should also look at themselves, why don't they join the Police or Army? They should volunteer to make sure that the armed forces are not hijacked by extremists.... -
Fudgester:
Muslims are bound by religion to follow the Qu'ran, and the Sunnah, which is the way of the Prophet Muhammad.
Many have argued that it is impossible to follow purely the Qu'ran because there are many matters that the Prophet has shown example through, which is not strictly dictated in the Qu'ran itself.
Hence, as he is considered the most perfect of human beings, the next logical thing would be to follow his ways, which are an example to all Muslims.
Sunnah today is derived from hadiths, which are a compilation of reports of sayings and deeds done by the Prophet Muhammad himself, by his companions.
Some of the most reliable, authentic hadiths are by Salhih Buhkari and Muslim, whom scholars have largely agreed are authentic and some of the most accurate and reliable.
From these hadiths, the Prophet himself has condemned those who commit apostasy to be slain.
"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Bukhari 9:83:17 (<-- Hadith reference)
Another clear report from Bukahri.
'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" Bukhari 4:52:260 (<--Hadith Reference)
Furthermore, All four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) -- agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt -- must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation.
I do not mean that it's ok to kill Muslims who convert out of religion, or that ALL muslims will kill lah.
This was in the past where such brute punishments were needed to keep warring tribes and converts in line in a very chaotic land. However, we're not in the state of war anymore, and many Muslims I'm friends with regard this as a tactic appointed because of neccessity in the past.
However, there will always be an overzealous few who want to take matters and laws into their own hands fuelled by crazy Imams who enjoy the power rush it gives him to mislead his flock.
Disclaimer:No offense is intended by the above. I have the utmost respect for all religions and what I have written here is merely to clear the air about certain facts.
My apologies if I have offended any Muslims or whoever else who took offense to what I have written above! -
brother...Originally posted by Dr Who:Then lan lan die lor!
The malaysian chinese should also look at themselves, why don't they join the Police or Army? They should volunteer to make sure that the armed forces are not hijacked by extremists....
u join police force or army.. still lan lan private nia.. kong si mi..
n even if u go higher levels , they put u at some training camp on on of the borneo island at sarawak or sabah until u rot to death man. -
Study the Koran and you will find your answers there.Originally posted by GameGoddess:Frankly speaking...
What's wrong if a Muslim wants to convert out of Islam into his/her religion of choice?
This is freedom from persecution of religious beliefs which is enshrined in our constitution. No one has the right to prevent a person of a certain belief to convert to whatever religion they wish.
I can't stand those holier-than-thou groups of ignoramuses who believe it is their right to pre-judge and take matters into their own hands - even worse, those who use violence to achieve this.
A muslim who leaves Islam to convert to other religion is one of the most unforgivable SINs... Allah (s.w.t) condemns the act. That is primary the reason why there exists such an outrage in a muslim country like Malaysia. -
Originally posted by spikey83:
I don't agree its unforgivable. Its a very unwarranted outrage by them. If they can't use common sense as to why any outrage is offensive, they should have known better that faith is between a person and God only and to disturb that link in any way is to upsurp the role of the messengers of God. Blasphemous.
Study the Koran and you will find your answers there. A muslim who leaves Islam to convert to other religion is one of the most unforgivable SINs... Allah (s.w.t) condemns the act. That is primary the reason why there exists such an outrage in a muslim country like Malaysia. 
Ohhh, the apocryphal hadiths. Interesting they are attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and quoted here when they run much contrary to the Quran's directives. Neednt say more for those who know better. 
Would be a liar though to deny there wasnt any death apostasy law. Indeed, it was used as a religio-political tool. Tsk. -
my friend was there he's a member of this church, the whole story on NST was a cover up for the public i heard.
when the first bunch of muslims gathered at the church, they claimed they received an sms saying Azhar Manshor ( the famous malaysian guy who sailed the world) was going to be baptised/ is attending the ceremony. the muslims demanded he be coming out. Not only that, the initial claims were that famous muslim political people and Anwar are coming down - note, not that they were going to be baptisted.
after the police arrived, the muslims then claimed about 200 or 300 university islam students were going to be baptisted in an sms received. what nonsense? if you've read it, you would've known its kinda fake!
the people that formed the large crowd were mostly members of PAS, a political party in malaysia on the opposition.
the church did not notify the police until the last minute when most people have gathered outside the church. their fear was that if a riot went on, and if there were any christians passing by the mosque(which is located quite near) they would be in danger -
As stated in my previous post, one who studies the holy Al-Quran should have a better idea of Apostate (I'll be explaining later below). A true muslim willOriginally posted by Gauze:I don't agree its unforgivable. Its a very unwarranted outrage by them. If they can't use common sense as to why any outrage is offensive, they should have known better that faith is between a person and God only and to disturb that link in any way is to upsurp the role of the messengers of God. Blasphemous.
Ohhh, the apocryphal hadiths. Interesting they are attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and quoted here when they run much contrary to the Quran's directives. Neednt say more for those who know better. Would be a liar though to deny there wasnt any death apostasy law. Indeed, it was used as a religio-political tool. Tsk.
definitely not turn his back on the religion if he follows the teaching of Islam closely. But sadly nowadays there is definitely a lot of non-practicing Muslims who are just basically muslim by name.
To understand the matter , you need to know who is an Apostate
Who is an Apostate (Murtadd)?
Islam is a form of submission and a muslim is a person who submits to the will of Allah (SWT) and His Messenger (PBUH) .The muslims stronlgy believe that all individuals have entered into a state of covenance with Allah during the period before being conceived. Now the question that arises is :Why don't we remember the covenant? Why did Allah erase it from our memory? Well the answer to this lies within the pages of the Holy Book wherein Allah says that he has suppressed this meeting with Him in our sub-conscious ,and the main reason for the suppresion into the sub conscious is to see whether the muslims can survive ALLAH 's test!
So then who is an Apostate and what exactly is apostasy as per Islamic principles ?
A person according to Islam is considered an apostate when :
1. He makes an explicit declaration that he has objected Allah's Will, and associates other Gods with Allah .This person is known as Usherak -bil-lah
2. If he commits acts of Blasphemy (kufr)
3. If he burns or soils the Quran
4 . If he enters into a church , temple , synagogue and assumes another form of worship !
5.If he believes in re-incarnation
6.If he assumes that the universe has existed for all eternity
7. If he assumes the Prophets existence in another form , be it comical or hypothetical etc.(ex. the representations of the PROPHET muhammad (PBUH) through the danish cartoons)
A person who was born into Islam and then converts into another religious practice is known as a natural Apostate or Mutad -Fitri.
A person who has converted to Islam and then converts into another religious practice defying Islam is known as Murtad Milli , which means Apostate from the Community.
The quraninc or traditional word that describes Apostasy is Irtidad and Apostate is Murtad.
I hope this answers some of the burning questions are clarified. Do not misunderstand my intent. Peace to all. May God bless you
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Some people really have to eat some chill pill...
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Originally posted by GameGoddess:
GG: I was just pointing out that the Quran doesn't state any earthly punishment for apostasy. Someone else had stated that it orders the stoning of apostates, and I was just trying to correct this misperception. I also don't deny the existence and authenticity of the hadith.
Fudgester:
Muslims are bound by religion to follow the Qu'ran, and the Sunnah, which is the way of the Prophet Muhammad.
Many have argued that it is impossible to follow purely the Qu'ran because there are many matters that the Prophet has shown example through, which is not strictly dictated in the Qu'ran itself.
Hence, as he is considered the most perfect of human beings, the next logical thing would be to follow his ways, which are an example to all Muslims.
Sunnah today is derived from hadiths, which are a compilation of reports of sayings and deeds done by the Prophet Muhammad himself, by his companions.
Some of the most reliable, authentic hadiths are by Salhih Buhkari and Muslim, whom scholars have largely agreed are authentic and some of the most accurate and reliable.
From these hadiths, the Prophet himself has condemned those who commit apostasy to be slain.
"Allah's Apostle said, The blood of a Muslim, who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Bukhari 9:83:17 (<-- Hadith reference)
Another clear report from Bukahri.
'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'" Bukhari 4:52:260 (<--Hadith Reference)
Furthermore, All four imams (the founders of the four schools of Islamic law) -- agree that the apostate whose fall from Islam is beyond doubt -- must be killed, and his blood must be spilled without reservation.
I do not mean that it's ok to kill Muslims who convert out of religion, or that ALL muslims will kill lah.
This was in the past where such brute punishments were needed to keep warring tribes and converts in line in a very chaotic land. However, we're not in the state of war anymore, and many Muslims I'm friends with regard this as a tactic appointed because of neccessity in the past.
However, there will always be an overzealous few who want to take matters and laws into their own hands fuelled by crazy Imams who enjoy the power rush it gives him to mislead his flock.
[b]Disclaimer:No offense is intended by the above. I have the utmost respect for all religions and what I have written here is merely to clear the air about certain facts.
My apologies if I have offended any Muslims or whoever else who took offense to what I have written above![/b]
For me, my line of reasoning is the same as you: I would certainly be very disappointed to know if someone else had left Islam for another religion. At the same time, though, I feel that the hadith on this issue were more relevant for the early days of Islam when such hard tactics were needed to keep things in check. This was especially the case when there were people who kept converting in and out of Islam in order to undermine it.
That isn't the situation now. I feel that judgement on the person should be left to God. So long as there remains a chance for the person to revert back to Islam, then punishment ought to be postponed indefinitely until God judges him. -
spikey83:
Study the Quran and Ill have a better idea.
The insinuation is there that I'm less learned, therefore could be wrong where I differed with you. This fixation of what is true Islam, will eventually lead to some snobbery.
The laws about apostasy are like, totally based on the hadiths, little on the Quran so maybe I should study the hadiths instead. Hmm....
So more fatwas are relayed here as if its the de facto Principles of Islam when even the Salafus-Saalih, the Righteous Predecessors, refuse to talk of and wish to be relieved from the burden of giving out even one religious edict. Why? Coz they fear to speak for God.
In advancing the laws about apostasy, vast amounts of texts in the Quran explicitly favouring religious plurism and freedom are ignored. In Usl-Fiqh, for Irtidad, there is a difference between a simple renounciation of faith and an attempt to overthrow or injure the sovereign state by illegal means. Nobody is doing the latter, nor deserve to be treated harshly. -
if only its so easyOriginally posted by Dr Who:Then lan lan die lor!
The malaysian chinese should also look at themselves, why don't they join the Police or Army? They should volunteer to make sure that the armed forces are not hijacked by extremists....
one issue in malaysia - muslims malaysians first~ chinese are considered wealth source. even in things like government universities, there must be a certain percentage of muslims/bumiputeras before allowing the other races to come in. even with purchasing houses they get 5% discount and certain percentage of unit must be allocated to them. u think its easy to be amalaysian chinese? -
Originally posted by Gauze:
It should be both pal. Sharia is Islamic law based on the Quran and the hadith of which apostacy is included irregardless of the length of the content.
spikey83:
Study the Quran and Ill have a better idea.
[b]The laws about apostasy are like, totally based on the hadiths, little on the Quran so maybe I should study the hadiths instead. Hmm....
To begin with, studying the Quran and understanding the tafsir is a good start before embarking on the hadith. As mentioned in my previous post my intent is not purely out of my snobbishness but to share with all the forumnites regarding apostasy. Studying both of the Quran and the hadith should be an ongoing process and I for one, as a muslim, is no exception to it. It seems that most are perplexed about this 'term' be it whether he or she is a muslim or not. Of coz the law regarding this is harsh but same applies to some of the laws deployed globally. Pardon me if i have angered some with my brash comments. -
Shouldn't the police be rounding up the group of protestor instead? Did the protestor gathered with good intention or intention to hurt?
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the protestors came with bats, wood planks and kerosene. but that wasn't reported in the papers as well. the papers said they came for a 'meeting' lolx...Originally posted by photo_seeker:Shouldn't the police be rounding up the group of protestor instead? Did the protestor gathered with good intention or intention to hurt?
http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/11/13/nation/16002763&sec=nation&focus=1
do u guys seriously believe this? i find it alot of loopholes and weird stories beating around the bush -
If we look at the matter closely, such indcidents are so precarious because it deals exclusively with one's personal identity. In this instance, the rumored baptism of Christians is taken as an insult to the religion of Islam and as such some segments of the religiousity took it as an attack upon their identity. I'm pretty certain that present in the equation are individuals who utilize such sentiment as a political tool for their own benefits. I'm certain that both the Koran and the Bible has their own reference to such despicable individuals. I urge everyone, especially in this day and age, to exercise much thought before being encapculated into this conflict of ideals. Afterall, don't we share similarities too, as parallel existence trying to live good lives in accordance with our religious and moral believes?
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Originally posted by spikey83:
In today context, are we saying that when a Muslim (or a group of Muslim) convert to other religion, it warrant the others “learned Muslims” to gather to protest, start rioting, killing, and bring the whole country back to the stone age? Is this the teaching we are given by the holy book? Will you join in the protest, riot, killing if the SMS message is true?
It should be both pal. Sharia is Islamic law based on the Quran and the hadith of which apostacy is included irregardless of the length of the content.
To begin with, studying the Quran and understanding the tafsir is a [b]good start before embarking on the hadith. As mentioned in my previous post my intent is not purely out of my snobbishness but to share with all the forumnites regarding apostasy. Studying both of the Quran and the hadith should be an ongoing process and I for one, as a muslim, is no exception to it. It seems that most are perplexed about this 'term' be it whether he or she is a muslim or not. Of coz the law regarding this is harsh but same applies to some of the laws deployed globally. Pardon me if i have angered some with my brash comments. [/b] -
To begin with, any SANE muslim wouldn't turn his back on his religion if he were to follow the teaching closely. If this can be prevented, then the issue of protesting, rioting or killing wouldn't exist at all.Originally posted by pisces8:In today context, are we saying that when a Muslim (or a group of Muslim) convert to other religion, it warrant the others “learned Muslims” to gather to protest, start rioting, killing, and bring the whole country back to the stone age? Is this the teaching we are given by the holy book? Will you join in the protest, riot, killing if the SMS message is true? -
You recognize that any SANE Muslim will not turn his back. In the same breath, you recognize that there are UN-SANE Muslims who will turn their back. In this in-perfect world, you will never be able to prevent some Muslims from turning away. There were already a number of court cases on this issue in the past and some are still on-going.Originally posted by spikey83:To begin with, any SANE muslim wouldn't turn his back on his religion if he were to follow the teaching closely. If this can be prevented, then the issue of protesting, rioting or killing wouldn't exist at all.
You have not answered the questions. Will you join in the protest, riot, killing if the SMS message is true? Is this the teaching we are given by the holy book to behave as such? -
That's the reason why I mentioned that there were already a number of non-practice muslims or muslim by name. As a fellow muslim, of coz it is disheartening to see my fellow brothers or sisters turning away from Islam. Protest, riot ? Maybe yes...but in the context of our STRONG mandate government I think this is not feasible. Killing ? Definitely no... It is definitely against my principle perhaps even in Islam to use violence when dealing with such a sensitive issue. To each his own.Originally posted by pisces8:You recognize that any SANE Muslim will not turn his back. In the same breath, you recognize that there are UN-SANE Muslims who will turn their back. In this in-perfect world, you will never be able to prevent some Muslims from turning away. There were already a number of court cases on this issue in the past and some are still on-going.
You have not answered the questions. Will you join in the protest, riot, killing if the SMS message is true? Is this the teaching we are given by the holy book to behave as such?
You said there were a number of court cases on this issue and some are still ongoing. Care to provide the links for me ???
Click the below link to learn more about the topic.
http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm
To conclude, apostasy is the clear repudiation of a faith by a person who formerly held it. Doctrinal differences, however grave, cannot be deemed to be apostasy. The Punishment for Apostasy lies in the hand of God Almighty, against whom the offence has been committed. It is HIM who decides the fate of the individual in the life thereafter. Peace. -
I'm in the same boat with you fudgester.Originally posted by fudgester:GG: I was just pointing out that the Quran doesn't state any earthly punishment for apostasy. Someone else had stated that it orders the stoning of apostates, and I was just trying to correct this misperception. I also don't deny the existence and authenticity of the hadith.
For me, my line of reasoning is the same as you: I would certainly be very disappointed to know if someone else had left Islam for another religion. At the same time, though, I feel that the hadith on this issue were more relevant for the early days of Islam when such hard tactics were needed to keep things in check. This was especially the case when there were people who kept converting in and out of Islam in order to undermine it.
That isn't the situation now. I feel that judgement on the person should be left to God. So long as there remains a chance for the person to revert back to Islam, then punishment ought to be postponed indefinitely until God judges him. -
Unlike you, I choose neither protests nor riots.Originally posted by spikey83:I'm in the same boat with you fudgester.
I choose objective discussion and dialogue.
So get off my boat. Please. -
It is very frightening that learned Muslims will resort to protest, riot... and to do other "things" (due to circumstances out of one control? eg during riot when people get killed).Originally posted by spikey83:That's the reason why I mentioned that there were already a number of non-practice muslims or muslim by name. As a fellow muslim, of coz it is disheartening to see my fellow brothers or sisters turning away from Islam. Protest, riot ? Maybe yes...but in the context of our STRONG mandate government I think this is not feasible. Killing ? Definitely no... It is definitely against my principle perhaps even in Islam to use violence when dealing with such a sensitive issue. To each his own.
You said there were a number of court cases on this issue and some are still ongoing. Care to provide the links for me ???
You may be not doing the above in Singapore, but you will do it in countries with less "STRONG mandate government" eg what happens in Malaysia and Indonesia.
Is this the teaching we are given by the holy book to behave as such?