The Burqa ban in Holland ...
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perhaps to fine-tune the point that LL has put up ...
in political science people talk about positive and negative rights ...
but there are some commentators who believe that there's no such thing as negative rights, cos such rights invariably imposes some conditions on other people ... and curbs their rights too ...
thus perhaps personal religious freedom, in this context, actually takes away the rights of others in this case, as fymk illustrated, to respect another's religious beliefs, others' personal liberties are curbed .... even if it's the right to wear bikinis and smoke dope (bad example, but you get what I mean) ... there was a recent uproar in the UK because some town councils and the red cross banned Christmas decorations in their offices and charity shope because it "may offend people of other faiths" is a good example ... political correctness gone amock ? ... I'm not sure it came out of nowhere, without any backlash or complaints though ...
tolerance and respect is a two way street ... and sometimes people forget that ...
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thanks Fatum. I was in no mood to do another reaction paper.Originally posted by Fatum:perhaps to fine-tune the point that LL has put up ...
in political science people talk about positive and negative rights ...
but there are some commentators who believe that there's no such thing as negative rights, cos such rights invariably imposes some conditions on other people ... and curbs their rights too ...
thus perhaps personal religious freedom, in this context, actually takes away the rights of others in this case, as fymk illustrated, to respect another's religious beliefs, others' personal liberties are curbed .... even if it's the right to wear bikinis and smoke dope (bad example, but you get what I mean) ... there was a recent uproar in the UK because some town councils and the red cross banned Christmas decorations in their offices and charity shope because it "may offend people of other faiths" is a good example ... political correctness gone amock ? ... I'm not sure it came out of nowhere, without any backlash or complaints though ...
tolerance and respect is a two way street ... and sometimes people forget that ... 
Right, let's say that there will be a clash when you have two major cultures coming together. The former being the entrenched culture that has already "set the tone" so to speak. Thus, there will be the cultural context in which the Dutch see their new immigrants as trying to have their cake and eat it, meaning leveraging on Dutch liberal freedoms to practise what the Dutch view as oppressive behavior.
Then the Muslim immigrants view this whole hooha as hypocrisy because they believe that the liberal Dutch state should protect their rights to do as they please.
Still, it is not a zero-sum game lor, there will be a point of confluence where your behavior and my attitude will clash. It is in this middle are where moderation has to take effect. It is sad when extremism is found in the middle of two liberal interpretations.
Thus, secular regimes need our support now more than ever. Religion should never be shoved in your face, but then again, you cannot expect your adopted homeland to give up their socio-religious heritage to suit you in a hard-on fashion.
By all means, practise your religion to your fullest extent at home, but the public place is a public sphere. -
the laws of the land must be obeyed if you're a guest. those who don't like it can always go back to the very places they came from. very simple concept, if you go to someone's house, don't expect them to follow your rules.
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ah ... you see ... that's part of the issue here ...Originally posted by vito_corleone:the laws of the land must be obeyed if you're a guest. those who don't like it can always go back to the very places they came from. very simple concept, if you go to someone's house, don't expect them to follow your rules.
we're talking about people born and breed in Europe, not some radical fundamentalist clerics preaching hatred whom the immigration ministers can just sign a deportation order for ...
the London bombers were born and breed in Britain ... so was the "Burqa" woman teaching at the Church of England kindergarten (yes, I know, ironic eh) who sued and raised a stink after she lost her job (see links on original post) They can't be "kicked back to where they came from" cos they belong to Europe and nowhere else ... what then ? ...
this is a more intractable problem that it looks on paper ... -
Intractable indeed, especially if we are talking of native chaps. It's somehow dealing with Birmingham hatemongers who can be deported.Originally posted by Fatum:ah ... you see ... that's part of the issue here ...
we're talking about people born and breed in Europe, not some radical fundamentalist clerics preaching hatred whom the immigration ministers can just sign a deportation order for ...
the London bombers were born and breed in Britain ... so was the "Burqa" woman teaching at the Church of England kindergarten (yes, I know, ironic eh) who sued and raised a stink after she lost her job (see links on original post) They can't be "kicked back to where they came from" cos they belong to Europe and nowhere else ... what then ? ...
this is a more intractable problem that it looks on paper ...
I think there was a gulf in community bonding education and what we are seeing today is a rushed attempt to try and re-introduce some sense of "stability", which I fear is a very stop-gap measure. -
I am given this link by my Ustadz (pastor equivalent) when i showed him this topic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4jQi0Gjy3M&eurl=
Watch and be enlightened
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if they harbour such hostile views about a certain place then they do not belong anywhere but with their own hate-mongering brethen in radical middle east areasOriginally posted by Fatum:ah ... you see ... that's part of the issue here ...
we're talking about people born and breed in Europe, not some radical fundamentalist clerics preaching hatred whom the immigration ministers can just sign a deportation order for ...
the London bombers were born and breed in Britain ... so was the "Burqa" woman teaching at the Church of England kindergarten (yes, I know, ironic eh) who sued and raised a stink after she lost her job (see links on original post) They can't be "kicked back to where they came from" cos they belong to Europe and nowhere else ... what then ? ...
this is a more intractable problem that it looks on paper ... -
they banned the face-covering thing burqa(?), not the whole headdressOriginally posted by Master -_-:I am given this link by my Ustadz (pastor equivalent) when i showed him this topic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4jQi0Gjy3M&eurl=
Watch and be enlightened -
Why not get a Muslim Women - perhaps Mahathir's daughter - to speak about the "hijab" and the "burqa" ?Originally posted by Master -_-:I am given this link by my Ustadz (pastor equivalent) when i showed him this topic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4jQi0Gjy3M&eurl=
Watch and be enlightened
Why let a glib tongue of a Muslim man to justify and twist logic on its head with his smart talking and brainless talking ?
If his brain can only be half as smart as his mouth, then perhaps it may sound more convincing.
David Letterman should share his nightly event with this western educated Muslim marvel, which is a shame for the education that was wasted on him, when the same would have got more mileage educating the Muslim womenfolks.
Ask the Afghan women who have suffered the abuses under the Taliban, or ask the Pakistani tribal women living under the male dominated society that practise rape of the women as part of social punishment, and killing the women to regain honor - ask these subjugated Muslim womenfolk when the men are not around to enforce the preferred views of the Muslim Males.
Is it surprising that all such issues are not addressed by the more progressive Muslim women who are better known, but have been handled by propagandist comedians that make light hearted speech on a serious topic concerning the subjugation of the Muslim womenfolk.
Perhaps the Muslim men should blindfold themselves if they believe that looking at exposed women's hair is too much temptation to commit evil. -
this guy is somehow dodgy in his statements, keeps reiterating certain points over and over, preaching and preaching and repeating islam is this islam is that without really looking into the real issue. with the "this is not proper hijab" gimmick, this fella might as well be the jim carrey of islamic radicalism