S'pore's ministers pay "lags behind private sector benchmark
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Originally posted by ProGovt:
Poverty is like punishment for a crime you didn't commit.
4getmenot - Did I read wrongly or is your comprehension really that bad? Anyway, it is pointless arguing on this if you do not know what are general expressions.
Guys. The world is unfair. Nobody owes me a living but I made a living myself. We should be grateful for the opportunities.
Everyone, and I mean [b]EVERYONE here, have the potential to become a minister and earn million dollar salary. If you cannot do it, blame yourself. What the point in whining and getting jealous because some else is more capable than you?
The ministers pay are peg to the mean of the top 6 profession that they usually come from; lawyers, doctors etc. It something that they are definitely capable of achieving themselves but they have been ask to serve the public. Surely, we can make it their worth.
Granted, there are poor people in this world. Can you help everyone? The only policy that works is to create equal opportunity for all and let the best and capable reach and take whatever their abilities allows them.
We complained about 2% GST increment. What other ways does the government have to generate revenue? Singapore has no natural resources and have to rely on foreign investment. It is only logical to make it attractive for businesses to stay here.
Increasing GST is fair because if you spend more, if you want a luxury lifestyle, then you pay more. Fair and square across the board.[/u][/b][/b] -
20 years down the road they will upgrade to durian the size of Esplanade.Originally posted by 4getmenot:maybe they'll upgrade to coconut few years down the road..
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*slaps forehead*Originally posted by ProGovt:Increasing GST is fair because if you spend more, if you want a luxury lifestyle, then you pay more. Fair and square across the board.
Certainly someone here hasn't heard about what a regressive tax is all about, and how GST is technically a regressive tax.
Now, just to enlighten you a little, typing 'define: regressive tax' in Google yields the following definition:
'(Regressive tax) is a tax in which the poor pay a larger percentage of income than the rich. Progressive Tax is the exact opposite of regressive tax.'
Why is GST categorised as a regressive tax? Simple. When it comes to expenditure on basic necessities such as foodstuffs and water, comsumption patterns do not change much with rising income. Both rich men and poor men still have to eat rice. By increasing an across-the-board tax on everything including basic necessities, what you're doing is making the poor pay more for their necessities, i.e. taking out a larger percentage of their income.
The beef that we have with the increase in GST has nothing to do about the rich having to pay more for their luxury lifestyle. Rather, it has everything to do about the poor having to pay more for their meagre lifestyle. Unless you tell me that all poor men would break their bank accounts to eat caviar and drink chardonnay at every meal, you are in effect increasing the burden on them.
If they introduce a progressive tax that will increase taxes on luxury items, I might still be able to believe them, but to increase a regressive tax? Oh please... I'm not stupid enough to believe that that will work.
I will agree that there will be government handouts to the poor, but any handouts will be based on statistical data based on average consumption patterns. And as with any statistics, the law of averages tells us that there will always be people who will not be adequately represented by the data.
If a net monthly household income of $1000 is taken as the upper limit of lower-income families, then a household with an income of $1000 gets the handouts, while another household with an income of $1100 but with added burden of medical bills and what not doesn't get it.
In the end, to sum it up, this is what the increase in GST will do to the various income groups:
Low-income: Some will benefit if their consumption patterns are below the average and the handouts more than offset the rise in GST. Others with consumption patterns that go above the average will suffer a net loss.
Middle-income: No benefits from handouts, and with the largest burden of all since they have lower incomes than the high-income group.
High-income: No benefits from handouts, with a smaller burden than the middle-income group.
I hereby invite you to challenge my economic analysis. -
The Govt has not announced what package will be available for the lower income after the GST increase and we should be patient. SM Goh has already said that at MINIMUM, it will be equivalent to the amount of additional tax collect.
Let's say if you put yourself in the position of the rich and wealthy. What would you be saying then if the govt increase tax solely on the high income?
You work hard and you are successful but the govt wants to tax you so much that you become as poor as you were? Everyone has a responsibility to help the poor but should it rest squarely on the shoulders of the rich? Remember what PM says, the rich has the ability to take their wealth else where. The FT could decide not to work in SG and when employers cannot find the necessary talent, they will go elsewhere.
I have been trying to higher someone in China and India and even though I'm prepared to pay a premium, I cannot find anyone qualified enough. Hence, I am taking the headcount to Malaysia, Thailand and Philippines. Such is the facts of life.
Before we start talking about progressive and regressive tax. Please, please think in terms of Singapore's situation and not take economics theory as applicable across all. Don't be a textbook idiot.
A few months ago, someone was stupid enough to write to ST Forum and says that the govt should tax heavily on inheritance so that it will bring the rich's children on par and on level paying field with the others? How ridiculous is that?
If that were to be true, then no one will want to make more money nor work harder because at the end of the day, it's all back to square one.
If you are poor or ugly, blame your parents; don't blame other kids parents because they plan hard or they have beautiful kids. Plan and be ready for your children and they will have a better chance at succeeding. -
Originally posted by ProGovt:
Ah I see... so you choose to totally ignore what I said about the law of averages and how some will have a net benefit and others will suffer from a net loss. Any handouts would have to be based on statistical data, which, as I've already mentioned, do not tell the whole story.
The Govt has not announced what package will be available for the lower income after the GST increase and we should be patient. SM Goh has already said that at MINIMUM, it will be equivalent to the amount of additional tax collect.
I can agree that my economic analysis is a bit simplistic, but it's sound in its fundamentals.
Before we start talking about progressive and regressive tax. Please, please think in terms of Singapore's situation and not take economics theory as applicable across all. Don't be a textbook idiot.
So I'm a 'textbook idiot' for applying fundamental economic theory to Singapore's situation? Say whatever you will, but regressive taxes are a greater burden to the poor than to the rich wherever you are on earth. I am trying to work out the government's logic, and I still can't see the light of their reasoning.
And instead of having you challenge me on economic theory, I get empty rhetoric on how I should '....not take economics theory as applicable across all' as well as a personal attack on me, saying that I'm a 'textbook idiot'.
Kindly try explaining to me why Singapore's situation is so unique that basic economic theory does not apply here. Explain to me why a progressive tax system that imposes a smaller economic burden on the poor will not work, while a regressive tax will.
I think I can see your strategy here: 'If you can't question the guy's arguments, question the guy's credibility'.
Nice try, pointdexter. I'm not falling for it. -
I agreed that is stupid to test more on the rich and to feed the poor. But let me say this. By raising the 2% of GST is it helping the poor or is it helping the government itself? Seriously out of 4million of singaporean how many ppl is really that poor? Don't tell me the govt going to all the extra 2% to help all the poor in singapore? I don't think the ministers are all that capable if they have to spend $400,000 campaign to find out that marina bay should be call marina bay again. Also $30,000 on a campaign to find a name budget terminal which is eventually call budget terminal. if you call that smart and capable then i nothing to say. We even have MP's daughter coming out of the scene to disscrminate ppl who are 40s and his dad is on his side. So daughter of MP can anyhow talk? Ministers get so much pay and in the end government tell us that singaporean have to tackle on our own problem? Then i tackle my own problem and no welfare why i still need to pay tax? Seriously why civil servant deserve more pay? they say civil servant have to stay competitive with the private sector? Sure or not? Really private sector so high pay? I see a lot of ppl getting 1,300 - 1,500 a month for a poly graduate. And civil servant also getting around there.. Still need to increase? Seriously, singapore is a very peaceful country. We got a place to live and all that. But that doesn't mean that we can't improve anymore. We need a government to train a group of better Singaporean. At the same time take care of them. Not to really spoon feed them but rather change a better system.. You might say is easiler than done. But since they are getting so much pay.. They have the duty to do it.Originally posted by ProGovt:The Govt has not announced what package will be available for the lower income after the GST increase and we should be patient. SM Goh has already said that at MINIMUM, it will be equivalent to the amount of additional tax collect.
Let's say if you put yourself in the position of the rich and wealthy. What would you be saying then if the govt increase tax solely on the high income?
You work hard and you are successful but the govt wants to tax you so much that you become as poor as you were? Everyone has a responsibility to help the poor but should it rest squarely on the shoulders of the rich? Remember what PM says, the rich has the ability to take their wealth else where. The FT could decide not to work in SG and when employers cannot find the necessary talent, they will go elsewhere.
I have been trying to higher someone in China and India and even though I'm prepared to pay a premium, I cannot find anyone qualified enough. Hence, I am taking the headcount to Malaysia, Thailand and Philippines. Such is the facts of life.
Before we start talking about progressive and regressive tax. Please, please think in terms of Singapore's situation and not take economics theory as applicable across all. Don't be a textbook idiot.
A few months ago, someone was stupid enough to write to ST Forum and says that the govt should tax heavily on inheritance so that it will bring the rich's children on par and on level paying field with the others? How ridiculous is that?
If that were to be true, then no one will want to make more money nor work harder because at the end of the day, it's all back to square one.
If you are poor or ugly, blame your parents; don't blame other kids parents because they plan hard or they have beautiful kids. Plan and be ready for your children and they will have a better chance at succeeding. -
I don't know why the ministers are arguing for a pay rise when theirs is already the highest in the world.
In my mind, its... "If you don't like your pay, quit loh! and go get a job that can pay what you desire".
And they say the average singaporean whines. Look who is whining now.
Hai... -
i find their reasoning ridiculous. in the first place what is the benchmark to determine if the candidate selected are top-notch? the responsibility of a minister is afterall very different from one of a CEO.Originally posted by Cindyfeh:I don't know why the ministers are arguing for a pay rise when theirs is already the highest in the world.
In my mind, its... "If you don't like your pay, quit loh! and go get a job that can pay what you desire".
And they say the average singaporean whines. Look who is whining now.
Hai...
i agree that they should quit or not join the public sector if they cannot accept a lower salary. i really do not believe there arent 'top notch' people who are willing to settle for less than or around the 100k-per-month salary. -
[/b]Originally posted by ProGovt:The Govt has not announced what package will be available for the lower income after the GST increase and we should be patient. SM Goh has already said that at MINIMUM, it will be equivalent to the amount of additional tax collect.
Let's say if you put yourself in the position of the rich and wealthy. What would you be saying then if the govt increase tax solely on the high income?
You work hard and you are successful but the govt wants to tax you so much that you become as poor as you were? Everyone has a responsibility to help the poor but should it rest squarely on the shoulders of the rich? Remember what PM says, the rich has the ability to take their wealth else where. The FT could decide not to work in SG and when employers cannot find the necessary talent, they will go elsewhere.
I have been trying to higher someone in China and India and even though I'm prepared to pay a premium, I cannot find anyone qualified enough. Hence, I am taking the headcount to Malaysia, Thailand and Philippines. Such is the facts of life.
Before we start talking about progressive and regressive tax. Please, please think in terms of Singapore's situation and not take economics theory as applicable across all. Don't be a textbook idiot.
A few months ago, someone was stupid enough to write to ST Forum and says that the govt should tax heavily on inheritance so that it will bring the rich's children on par and on level paying field with the others? How ridiculous is that?
If that were to be true, then no one will want to make more money nor work harder because at the end of the day, it's all back to square one.
[b]If you are poor or ugly, blame your parents; don't blame other kids parents because they plan hard or they have beautiful kids. Plan and be ready for your children and they will have a better chance at succeeding.
F U C K you!!! Your face is even not comparable with my prick! -
WELL SAID! The point is that they in their ivory towers, are among the clouds, don't think they'll ever know if their feet smell. They certainly don't live the lives of those who whine about their daily living woesOriginally posted by Cindyfeh:I don't know why the ministers are arguing for a pay rise when theirs is already the highest in the world.
In my mind, its... "If you don't like your pay, quit loh! and go get a job that can pay what you desire".
And they say the average singaporean whines. Look who is whining now.
Hai...
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Now now, lowclassman, there's no need to resort to personal attacks.
I should know - ProGovt called me a 'textbook idiot'. Just because he uses personal attacks doesn't mean that we should do the same. -
You are right! let him die in his parents' shit holes.Originally posted by fudgester:Now now, lowclassman, there's no need to resort to personal attacks.
I should know - ProGovt called me a 'textbook idiot'. Just because he uses personal attacks doesn't mean that we should do the same. -
Originally posted by ProGovt:
Look.... GST is applicable for BOTH Luxury items and DAILY NECESSITIES.... How can you say it is FAIR?
The ministers pay are peg to the mean of the top 6 profession that they usually come from; lawyers, doctors etc. It something that they are definitely capable of achieving themselves but they have been ask to serve the public. Surely, we can make it their worth.
Granted, there are poor people in this world. Can you help everyone? The only policy that works is to create equal opportunity for all and let the best and capable reach and take whatever their abilities allows them.
We complained about 2% GST increment. What other ways does the government have to generate revenue? Singapore has no natural resources and have to rely on foreign investment. It is only logical to make it attractive for businesses to stay here.
Increasing GST is fair because if you spend more, if you want a luxury lifestyle, then you pay more. Fair and square across the board.[/u][/b]
I can still do well with that 2% increase... What about those low-income households? Are you going to say "cannot afford, then don't have babies?"... or cannot afford "eat less"?
Yes... we must make sure our ministers are well-paid to compensate them or should i quote "make their worth" (which todate is still questionable)... I understand that policy-making is not an easy job.... first and foremost, their job is to serve the public... not just the exclusive rich and famous...
This GST debate is not for the benefit for the RICH... it's the poor... GST increase will benefit the rich... not the poor... cos the poor will incur higher cost of living... and they won't be able to enjoy the tax savings (wat's there to tax?)... -
GST is calculated based on company's earning today. If we are go implement GST based on the product/ service type, the administrative and operational cost to check, determine and maintenance the list would be a huge and expensive excerise.
Our Govt is smart in that they have chosen the most effective way to implement it. -
So for all the talk about hiring and retaining brilliant minds, the government is resorting to a solution that I and, I suspect, my 15 year old cousin, can think up in about 5 minutes?
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Unfortunately but true, there is no free lunch in this world. Nothing is for free and no one is so great as to work for less. If that be the case, the world would be swamped with full time volunteers.Originally posted by dragg:i agree that they should quit or not join the public sector if they cannot accept a lower salary. i really do not believe there arent 'top notch' people who are willing to settle for less than or around the 100k-per-month salary.
If we are not going to pay our ministers good money worth their time, who will be running the show?
Take one of our post-65 MP; Ms Jessica Tan. She is the GM of Microsoft APAC. How much do you think she makes per annum? Someone in the industry would estimate between 400-600K. Do you think it is fair to ask her to give up her work and family time for less than 100K?
Would you work for less? -
Originally posted by ProGovt:
are you are one of those (MIW) whose pay 'adjustment' is at stake here??
Everyone, and I mean [b]EVERYONE here, have the potential to become a minister and earn million dollar salary. If you cannot do it, blame yourself. What the point in whining and getting jealous because some else is more capable than you?[/u][/b][/b] -
Would you believe everything I say? I have nothing to do with politics but I happen to have the privilege of knowing a few.Originally posted by siaokao:are you are one of those (MIW) whose pay 'adjustment' is at stake here?? -
Originally posted by Lowclassman:
Relax pal..
[/color]
F U C K you!!! Your face is even not comparable with my prick![/b]
Dun lose ur cool over someone like that. Who would call himself "PROGOVT" other than to draw fire and create havoc in this forum? -
So you are in the ELITE class?Originally posted by ProGovt:Would you believe everything I say? I have nothing to do with politics but I happen to have the privilege of knowing a few.
I different class.. i donno them.. they also donno me..
I dun understand them.. they also dun understand me.. -
- del
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Attracting and Keeping The Best and the Brightest
Survey Results From Council for Excellence in Government Principals on How to Get, Develop and Retain Excellent People in Government Service
http://www2.excelgov.org/index.php?keyword=a432c0e21039a7 -
the way you put it, no amount is ever enough.Originally posted by ProGovt:Unfortunately but true, there is no free lunch in this world. Nothing is for free and no one is so great as to work for less. If that be the case, the world would be swamped with full time volunteers.
If we are not going to pay our ministers good money worth their time, who will be running the show?
Take one of our post-65 MP; Ms Jessica Tan. She is the GM of Microsoft APAC. How much do you think she makes per annum? Someone in the industry would estimate between 400-600K. Do you think it is fair to ask her to give up her work and family time for less than 100K?
Would you work for less?
moreover are you saying that if we pay someone 80k a month for a minister post we will get idiots? -
Need to give up work and 'family' time meh? Actually.. our Ministers all part time.. they sit (also part-time) as directors in many boards! Meaning.. many part-time jobs with multiple peanut pay leh..Originally posted by ProGovt:Unfortunately but true, there is no free lunch in this world. Nothing is for free and no one is so great as to work for less. If that be the case, the world would be swamped with full time volunteers.
If we are not going to pay our ministers good money worth their time, who will be running the show?
Take one of our post-65 MP; Ms Jessica Tan. She is the GM of Microsoft APAC. How much do you think she makes per annum? Someone in the industry would estimate between 400-600K. Do you think it is fair to ask her to give up her work and family time for less than 100K?
Would you work for less?
Let me know if I'm wrong.. -
I agreed that the poodle's job is part time while their other commitments are full time.
So, how can a part-time job be getting a full-time pay ?
Therefore, they are already receiving multiple income.
If the people have to end up "feeding" solution for the poodle, then what is the job of the poodle in the 1st place ?
Mr Peanut is really getting senile and continuing to say stuff without any thought.
I think he should just resign and stay in England with the rest of his peanut clan.