Too many laws make us a law-full state
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Have we reached a stage where we need pacifers stuffed into our infant mouths? Here we are, a nation full of complainer bugs yet none of us have the nerve to openly voice our concerns (me included) to the govt.
It seems that many ppl disapprove over constitutions and laws passed but have found no method to put their points across, save speaking to a opposition parliment member.
The latest in a long line is the enforcing of the back seat belt law. Is is not the onus of passengers to ensure their own safety? Call it overprotection? Or call it a restriction of priviledges? As a victim, i can feel a noose tighten ard my neck and the air squeezed out of my lungs.
Without the govt, i strongly feel a lack of self-direction in our ppl. Is there any wonder why we have a lack of creative entrepreneurs? Our nation is a classic manpower factory that feed the masses that are called companies. Accountants go to their respective firms, engineers go to their factories and r and d companies...
Laws are set and not questioned. It seems everyone will settle for wat they stand for rather then the subsequent implications. I for one would think getting pulled over and fined for a back seat belt law laughable. -
wat about the point that, even after years of an attempt to educate the masses about the importance of belting up, members of the public are still not doing so?Originally posted by controversay:The latest in a long line is the enforcing of the back seat belt law. Is is not the onus of passengers to ensure their own safety? Call it overprotection? Or call it a restriction of priviledges? As a victim, i can feel a noose tighten ard my neck and the air squeezed out of my lungs.
I for one would think getting pulled over and fined for a back seat belt law laughable.
do we know that it is much safer to belt up, even (or maybe especially?) if you were at the backseat? of course we do. and yet how many times have we sat at the backseat, noticed the noticed the presence of the seatbelt beside us, and yet not put it on?
it is not that i blatantly support whatever law or legislation the govt comes up with, but i think this is a poor example, and perhaps may even serve as an analogy to other laws or legislations which people are only too quick to form negative opinions about. the govt has done its part in trying to educate us, but if we still persist in not doing it, then why blame the govt in enforcing such law? would there have been a need for this enforcement if we had followed such simple safety practices in the car?wat excuse do we have for not belting up in the rear seat, the seat belt is inconvenient? uncomfortable? we do not know that its safer? its the same concept as a parent enforcing rules on his/her little child because the child would not do it otherwise.
almost every nation in the world with roads has a traffic law that says one must belt up. when it was first made mandatory to belt up when you were in the front seat, people too scoffed and lamented. but today, everybody accepts without question the importance of belting up in the front seats. so what is it that is laughable? the govt, who has to resort to such tricks to ensure safety for its people? or the people, who are like children, who need rules enforced upon them even to do acts which are logically and well-known to be safe practices? -
Originally posted by Ducati996:
I agree with the part that the govt has done enuff to educate us but there are times where laws need not be passed. Like u said this is a poor example of a law that shd be enforced.
[B]
it is not that i blatantly support whatever law or legislation the govt comes up with, but i think this is a poor example, and perhaps may even serve as an analogy to other laws or legislations which people are only too quick to form negative opinions about. the govt has done its part in trying to educate us, but if we still persist in not doing it, then why blame the govt in enforcing such law? [B]
I find it difficult to accept that after so many years of driving without a backseat rule (the law has been ard for 10 years), they finally crack the whip only ten years into the ruling. Cars have been ard decades b4 and there has not been such a rule. I believe that statistics brought together from past and present years will show that accidents INVOLVING backseat belts being ignored are pretty much identical.
Most accidents involve the usual drink-driving, impatience, beating the lights etc etc. Then there is the occasional knocking down of a jaywalking pedestrian and multiple car pile-ups. But the number of passengers who have been killed becoz they refused to use the backseat belts is definitely not rising.
Education demands that we take precedance with our lives and hence safety. I think certain things shd be left to the general public to decide whether it's worth doing. Putting up billboards and having advertisements promoting backseat belts is the next best thing but ultimately, it's ur own safety, your own onus.
If we continue to "enforce" unnecessary laws such as this, we will only turn s'poreans into ppl who belt up becoz they "have to" , not becoz they're matured to realise it's their lives they're gambling with. In short they only go through the motion becoz there is a LAW governing it, not becoz they personally deem it appropriate.
[This message has been edited by controversay (edited 09 May 2002).] -
well, thats the point i was trying to make. i just think that, where this law is concerned, what's laughable is not the govt, its the people, who are like kids needing the parents to tell them what to do all the time.Originally posted by controversay:If we continue to "enforce" unnecessary laws such as this, we will only turn s'poreans into ppl who belt up becoz they "have to" , not becoz they're matured to realise it's their lives they're gambling with. In short they only go through the motion becoz there is a LAW governing it, not becoz they personally deem it appropriate.
[This message has been edited by controversay (edited 09 May 2002).]
is this purely a s'porean trait? or worse still, a trait borne from the way the govt has led us over the years? i personally dont think so. in my first post, i did mention, in the US when it was first made mandatory to belt up in the front seat, the people scoffed and criticized the law, also claiming the govt was imposing too many unnecessary restrictions upon them. is it not unlike a child, sulking at being told to wash his hands before dinner by his mother? but when the child grows up, washing his hands before dinner becomes a habit, one that is done for hygiene purposes and no longer because his mother is still watching him. but it is a habit that would not otherwise have formed if his mother had not in the first place enforced such little restrictions on the boy.
of course, i am not commenting on the effectiveness of such a law. i do not know the statistics involving road accidents, and how much belting up can improve road safety, when balanced against other factors. yes, we know it is a safe practice, but important enough to warrant a law? only time will tell perhaps. all i am saying is, govts, and not just ours, impose such laws upon us simply because we would not have done such safe practices otherwise. -
Both sides have their merits i guess, the govt "pampering" us with such laws to ensure our safety (notice the irony?) and the ppl who disregard them or consider it safe enuff for the passengers to be unbuckled.
Frankly, i would prefer only the front two to be fastened and leave the rear seaters with the option to stay unbuckled or buckled up.
If something happens, then it's just too bad....but that's me. -
Guess its a question of whether we're free to do something stoopid if it suits us or not.
In Sg's case, obviously not... Citizens are too valuable to be left to their own devices. Hence, it is the duty of the government to ensure that every citizen is developed to his/her fullest potential to best serve the interests of the state... -
So i would reckoned a fine for Jaywalking will be the next upcoming one that will enforce a stricter traffic law? How about fining for not belting up for all transportation including bus as well instead of just the car.
So after years of attempt to educate the masses of the importance of certain actions, and members of the public are still not doing so, Law is passed to enforce it. I fear that the masses are still not doing quite alot of those actions that the government think is important. After years of educating the pple on importance of courtesy, few follows, Should law be passed to enforce it? After letting the pple know the importance of raising a family and having more children io curb a greying populations, and the number of singles still going up and we still face a serious baby crisis, should law be passed to stop the trend to curb a national crisis then? So many law to make a 'fine' singapore city, would it be fine? It's no wonder we have such a huge apathetic lots with a lack of self-direction and of course without much creativity. -
Then by your reasoning too, since everybody knows stealing, rape, drugs and murder are wrong, we should remove the laws that prohibit such acts? Then we can do away withOriginally posted by Kyo23:So i would reckoned a fine for Jaywalking will be the next upcoming one that will enforce a stricter traffic law? How about fining for not belting up for all transportation including bus as well instead of just the car.
So after years of attempt to educate the masses of the importance of certain actions, and members of the public are still not doing so, Law is passed to enforce it. I fear that the masses are still not doing quite alot of those actions that the government think is important. After years of educating the pple on importance of courtesy, few follows, Should law be passed to enforce it? After letting the pple know the importance of raising a family and having more children io curb a greying populations, and the number of singles still going up and we still face a serious baby crisis, should law be passed to stop the trend to curb a national crisis then? So many law to make a 'fine' singapore city, would it be fine? It's no wonder we have such a huge apathetic lots with a lack of self-direction and of course without much creativity.
prisons since our people are responsible and mature enough not to commit atrocious acts? Do away with the police force, use the money saved for the good of the people?
yes, i admit, the scenario that i have used is an extreme situation. but so is yours. my point is: why use an extreme scenario to debate the cons of the topic? are you implying that our society is moving towards the extreme and fanatical state that you envision in your post? if that is the case, than you are even more disillusioned. clearly laws to enforce the behaviour or mentality that you have mentioned is preposterous. in no way are we moving towards such a scenario.
i can tell by your last line, you are making a point that our laws remove 'self-direction' and 'creativity' from our people. which law? in what way? you have not substantiated your points with adequate reasoning, preferring, as usual, to use extreme and preposterous scenarios as examples to make your point.
you have this vision of a wonderful, perfect society and country in your head, and because the real S'pore does not conform to your vision, you blast and critize everything the leaders do because you know they are the ones responsible for the way things are, from national service to restrictions on freedom, and now our laws. in case you still have not realised it: that wonderful vision you have in your head does not exist. not in s'pore, not in any country in this world that i know of and i dare you to name me one country so perfect that we should emulate, and what about that country we should emulate.
and even if you can name one, then why don't you migrate there? you have come up with a thousand and one negative points about this country, its government, its policies and what have you, and not one single word about what it is in this country that makes you keep on staying here.
back to my original point to you: provide proper reasoning for your arguments. the way you are going in this post, as well as countless other posts, you are not here to debate, this forum to you is merely an avenue for you to vent your frustations on your unseen ghosts within the government. you snub all those who disagree with you as if they are a bunch of disillusioned puppets, when in fact by the way you carry yourself in this forum, it is clear that you are the one who is blindly thrashing about; like a drowning man who does not know how to swim, your arms and legs wildly flailing about yet not knowing how to float and all you know is you want to break the surface and breathe. -
So is not belting up or jaywalking as serious as those extreme that you mentioned. Don argue just for the sake of arguing and make pple laugh. I would think you make a lousy joke.Originally posted by Ducati996:Then by your reasoning too, since everybody knows stealing, rape, drugs and murder are wrong, we should remove the laws that prohibit such acts? Then we can do away with
prisons since our people are responsible and mature enough not to commit atrocious acts? Do away with the police force, use the money saved for the good of the people?
yes, i admit, the scenario that i have used is an extreme situation. but so is yours. my point is: why use an extreme scenario to debate the cons of the topic?
So which law then promote creativity when you are restricted and forced to conform? You have freedom of speech? The key point here is that having too many laws that restrict even tiny little freedoms that anyone can enjoy in a country, is it good?
i can tell by your last line, you are making a point that our laws remove 'self-direction' and 'creativity' from our people. which law? [/q][b]
Well, this is the country where i am borned. What choice do i have? When my poor old parents are stuck here with just their pathetic CPF for retirement unmatched by a higher HDB housing loan to be paid? Do you think i can leave them alone when they can go nowhere and migrate? Do you think your poor retired parent with more than half their life time saving stuck in CPF and HDB flat, high cost of living and prices that keep raising sky high, can survive in this country where the old and the sick are look upon as a burden? My parents is the only reason that keep me staying here. And like the thinking of my foreign colleague, I worry for my own retirement. Singapore is just another good enuff place to work, full stop. And since we had our PR status in australia approved based on IT skill criteria recently, migration to australia to join my relatives whose thriving over there might be my future's plan.
you have this vision of a wonderful, perfect society and country in your head, and because the real S'pore does not conform to your vision, you blast and critize everything the leaders do because you know they are the ones responsible for the way things are, from national service to restrictions on freedom, and now our laws. in case you still have not realised it: that wonderful vision you have in your head does not exist. not in s'pore, not in any country in this world that i know of and i dare you to name me one country so perfect that we should emulate, and what about that country we should emulate.
and even if you can name one, then why don't you migrate there? you have come up with a thousand and one negative points about this country, its government, its policies and what have you, and not one single word about what it is in this country that makes you keep on staying here.
Why waste $$$ settling down here raising kids esp boy in such a blood sucking environment when he can be raised elsewhere and come back here 2 and a half year ahead of the local to be valued as foreign talent? Why waste $$$ settling down here when for a price of a 90 square metre 4 Room HDB flat, i can get a big house with courtyards and garden over there in melbourne like my relative? Why waste $$$ buying a car here when you can get 3 new branded cars with the same price over there? Why pay COE when you can have the freedom to drive car till it die over there? Why worry about retirement and your kid's education when you had worked all your life to pump in CPF, COE, Taxes, GST, High HDB pricing and serve cheap labour in NS for the government here? Why worry about too high a taxes over there when you are getting a much higher salary too to offset the difference than here? And hence, the current move of mine would be to earn hard, enjoy and spent only in other countries e.g malaysia, indonesia etc and ultimately save up for my next move.
Well, migration will be my next move only when i have no need to worry for my parents here and when i find it totally unbearable to work here even as a PR anymore.
Guess you can say so if you like, luckily there's no law to stop one from doing so cos internet is the only avenue that's still at least untouchable to some extent by the government unlike local media. So much for tok of transparency in singapore.
back to my original point to you: provide proper reasoning for your arguments. the way you are going in this post, as well as countless other posts, you are not here to debate, this forum to you is merely an avenue for you to vent your frustations on your unseen ghosts within the government. you snub all those who disagree with you as if they are a bunch of disillusioned puppets, when in fact by the way you carry yourself in this forum, it is clear that you are the one who is blindly thrashing about; like a drowning man who does not know how to swim, your arms and legs wildly flailing about yet not knowing how to float and all you know is you want to break the surface and breathe.
Each to his own. When 75% of the apathetic lots can actually support the government to meet its own end, what can the minority do? No hope i guess. We will just have to wait and see the results b4 we make the move for the sake of our next generation and hope for the best for this country for the sake of our poor parents.
The New Poors in Singapore
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 14 May 2002).] -
plenty of choice. what does your birthplace have anything to do with it? people stay on at their country of birth because they are proud of it, and happy to stay there. you, obviously, are not. what are you implying? that you are patriotic? no country will take you in? no money to migrate?So is not belting up or jaywalking as serious as those extreme that you mentioned. Don argue just for the sake of arguing and make pple laugh. I would think you make a lousy joke.[/quote]
it is funny how you throw back my accussations of you back at me. so you do see that my point was a lousy joke? you agree with me then that it is lame to use 'lousy jokes' as points for our argument.
then perhaps you may like to re-examine your post. did you not mention, at the rate the government is producing the laws, that laws should be made to ensure that our singaporeans show courtesy to each other, and also that laws should make it compulsory to set up families and ensure we reach our optimum growth, in other words implying that it should be made illegal for families to have less than two children?
my intention was not to make people laugh. my intention was to make YOU see how lame your argument was. but, as usual, you point out the flaws in my arguments without realising the flaws in yours. ironically, you have actually criticized yourself when you criticized me.So which law then promote creativity when you are restricted and forced to conform? You have freedom of speech? The key point here is that having too many laws that restrict even tiny little freedoms that anyone can enjoy in a country, is it good?
did i say that there were laws that promoted creativity? it is ridiculous to think that there can be a law that makes it illegal to be uncreative. my question to you was: which of our laws stifle our creativity?
does freedom of speech promote creativity? as far as i can tell, our restrictions in freedom of speech are in the form of prohibition in topics that will incite racial tension, compromise national security, and, of course, as has been clearly demonstrated, slander aginst the government. slander refers to baseless accusations, hence if you have proof of your accusations that it will not be illegal. what dr chee did to the PM was slander, illegal; but if it were legal, would you call that creative? the restrictions are in place to protect us; are you implying that by being free to incite unrest, to compromise national security and freely throw slander at the government, we are creative?
you said your key point was, if we restricted even the tiny little freedoms, is it good? what 'tiny little freedom' has the government prohibited you from practicing? everything that the government prohibits us from doing are acts that will have adverse consequences on either the country, the society, those around us, or even ourselves. example: we cannot smoke in air-conditioned places, is it not to protect the people around the smokers? we cannot spit, is it not maintain hygiene?
you are still being vague, apart from your pet peeve, freedom of speech, and that too lacked elaboration from you. my question still stands: which laws stifle our creativity?
Well, this is the country where i am borned. What choice do i have?
i believe your concern for your parents. but it raises the question: if you love them so much, why let them stay on here, since this place is as screwed up as you claim it to be?When my poor old parents are stuck here with just their pathetic CPF for retirement unmatched by a higher HDB housing loan to be paid? Do you think i can leave them alone when they can go nowhere and migrate? My parents is the only reason that keep me staying here.
there is always a way to get out of this muckhole of a place that you call your birthplace. and especially since you hate it so much, that should inspire you to strive even harder to get out. sell the flat, whatever it takes, for the promise of a better life, with your parents.
and furthermore, since the cost of living is lower elsewhere, than obviously you cant say you dont have the money to migrate, because in the long run you will save money.S'pore is just another good enough place to work? but in other posts, you have also criticized this, especially where foreign talent is concerned. and did you not say you will earn more elsewhere?And like the thinking of my foreign colleague, I worry for my own retirement. Singapore is just another good enuff place to work, full stop. And since we had our PR status in australia approved based on IT skill criteria recently, migration to australia to join my relatives whose thriving over there might be my future's plan.
these are not questions to be posed to me, or anyone else, but yourself. i have my own answers to these questions, answers which i believe in, with full conviction, but would not apply to you or anyone else. these are my reasons, and mine alone, to stay on this country.Why waste $$$ settling down here.... Why waste $$$ settling down here... Why waste $$$ buying a car here... Why pay COE when you can have the freedom... Why worry about retirement and your kid's education... Why worry about too high a taxes over there when you are getting a much higher salary too...i truly wish you all the best. there is no need to condemn a person who wishes to migrate because he finds the country of his birth unsuitable for his life. your life is yours to live. and i sincerely wish you happiness in wherever you may choose to reside.And hence, the current move of mine would be to earn hard, enjoy and spent only in other countries e.g malaysia, indonesia etc and ultimately save up for my next move.
Well, migration will be my next move only when i have no need to worry for my parents here and when i find it totally unbearable to work here even as a PR anymore.
[quote]Each to his own. When 75% of the apathetic lots can actually support the government to meet its own end, what can the minority do? No hope i guess. We will just have to wait and see the results b4 we make the move for the sake of our next generation and hope for the best for this country for the sake of our poor parents.all i can say to this is, nowhere in the world can you find a country or society where 100% of the people are supportive of their government or their leaders. an unhappy minority will always exist. but here, at least, you DO have hope. you CAN get away, unlike other places bogged down by poverty and torn by violence where the people truly HAVE NO HOPE, and worse still if the happy people are the minority.
[This message has been edited by Ducati996 (edited 14 May 2002).] -
Ya la ya la. Why don't you just move out of Singapore and stay in Australia. Since u dislike almost every aspect of this country.
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C'mon guys, we could see from all the posts that Kyo23 has is about how bad our govt, society and the system is. But i wonder why is he still here making so much noise, venting his anger at the forum?
Says so much of his character for being a person that only goes for material gain and to the extent of even giving up his citizenship JUST because he wants a so call 'better life'. If he thinks Australia is a better place, wait till the refugees floods in and they are forced to take everyone! Then he will complain about THAT govt being foolish and all, and all the $$ that he had saved would go into the pockets of the refugees...hahahhaha...thanks to the society security!!!!
Kyo23, sad to say but you won't be able to find anyone to sympathise or support you on your situation. Quite oppositely, you will only find criticisms for your thoughts and comments. -
If I recall correctly, PM Goh once remarked that Singaporeans are moaners...we like to complain. We are never satisified.
The root of our dissatisfaction is mainly due to the individual selfish point of view, we only want the good, but not the bad. But running a country, they have to think of the long term picture, and the good of the society as a whole. Thus some unpopular changes/rules (5% GST) have to be implemented.
For example, just imagine you are the boss of a company, and you are making a loss. To ensure the long time survivability of the business, you have to cut the workers pay. Sure...you can keep the workers happy, by not making any pay reductions. But very soon your company will go bust. Singapore is managed much in the same manner.
True, in countries like Austrilia, you might have cheap houses, cheap cars, wide open spaces. But do you know how expensive it is to eat out? Do you know how expensive the health cost here? It can easily cost you up *OVER* $50 to see a GP, and that is just for the consultation. You have to pay another sum for your medication at the pharmacy. Income tax high, and you see homeless old pple on the streets. Racial problems.
In this world, nothing is perfect. There is always a balance. For every good thing, there is bound to be flaws. No system is perfect.
You are blasting away, without giving any constructive solutions. Kyo23, you think other countries are better, and offer a better life. But have you ever spent some extended period of your life living overseas? On what grounds did you base your comments on? Cause you views so far had been very shallow. (no offense meant)
It's a common human flaw, we always think that the grass is greener on the other side. But the result is usually disappointing, as we did not preceive the full picture. It's no better than a horse wearing blinkers, can only see straight.
If you are unhappy with your present situation, do something to improve it! Complaining won't change a thing. If you not happy with a goverment policy, there are channels to voice your views. Eg. Strait Times Forum. If are sure you can run this country better, form a party and run for goverment....but pls kindly don't the sad example set by Dr Ch**. If not, sell your assets, migrate....I wish you all the best in your future.
But if Singapore is your home only when it suits your needs, then I will like to enquire what's the differance between you and the foreign talent you so dispise? Aren't you like a mercenary? Hopefully you can ponder over the meaning of the words below.
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"Ask not what your country can
do for you--ask what you can do for your country"
Inaugural Address
President John F. Kennedy
Washington, D.C.
January 20, 1961 -
For all his claims and rants against the foreign talent which have been a feature of Kyo23's posts ever since he came here, he's finally shown his true colours. He's just jealous of them and would join their ranks the first chance he gets. Talk about falling off his high horse.Originally posted by wombat:But if Singapore is your home only when it suits your needs, then I will like to enquire what's the differance between you and the foreign talent you so dispise? Aren't you like a mercenary?
He just shown his true colours; that of a two-faced prat.
And the truth shall set you free. *snigger*
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 17 May 2002).] -
You really think that your perceived higher pay in Australia will offset the *minimum* 30% income tax that will be stamped on you(I'm working part time in Melbourne and I get taxed 22% so as an IT professional I'll assume 30% will be the minimum for you), ON TOP of the 10% GST AS WELL as the higher standards of living here($4 ham and egg sandwich on 2 slices of bread mean anything?)? You're either wildly optimistic or terminally naive.
Hey maybe you can supplement that higher income by claiming disability pension for the latter and use your posts here as evidence of your claims. *snigger*
Of course your relatives will paint a rosy picture for you here. No matter what they're Singaporeans born and bred, face will most likely still matter to them. After spending a small fortune uprooting themselves and their families from their land of birth (and probably slagging off Singapore no end like you when they were in SG) you'll hardly expect them to tell you that they found out Australia, like Singapore has its pros and cons and is not exactly heaven on earth?
Maybe the next time you speak to them you might like to ask them about
- how Australia's car theft rate is second only to Britain in the OECD
- the general quality of Melbournes roads and how good they are for the suspension of that dear BMW which you'll buy in Australia
- dare them to walk alone unescorted in Melbourne suburbs called Footscray or Richmond in the middle of the night(and try asking yourself if you dare to do the same in say, AMK or Clementi at the same time)
- what are the odds of getting the window of that BMW of yours smashed in the middle of the city and that expensive CD changer you've just bought stolen?
- whats with a justice system which sentences 2 yobs who rob rape and kill a 80+ year old granny get 18 months jail each?
I can go on and on. Don't get me wrong, Australia is not hell on earth, but neither is Singapore and neither is Australia the heaven on earth you seem to believe. I've been here studying for 3+ years(and working part time), like it tremendously, met lots of great people here(but met my share of assholes too). But after trying out both lifestyles, I know where I'll settle, and its not where I am now.
Of course cars and houses will cost more in Singapore, and houses are smaller. In case you haven't noticed, Singapore is an island 40 miles at its longest and 25 miles widest, while Australia is a huge continent with more land than it knows what to do with. Simple supply and demand economics. Or is that even beyond your understanding for an IT professional?
Do you think that we can fit our entire population in huge bugalows at affordable prices and still have space to work etc etc? Or do you just want it for yourself at the expense of others?
On the other hand, you'll be able to join your anti-globalization protester mates outside the Nike Superstore in Melbourne every Friday. Oh wait, you'll become a poster boy for globalization when you become an Australian PR and work as a "foriegn talent" won't you? Better not go then...
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 17 May 2002).] -
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 17 May 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 17 May 2002).] -
Wow, so much response since i was gone for a 5 days trip oversea for a project. Pardon me for the late reply.
When did i mentioned that at the rate the government is producing the laws, that laws SHOULD be made to ensure that our singaporeans show courtesy to each other, and also that laws SHOULD make it compulsory to set up families and ensure we reach our optimum growth, in other words implying that it should be made illegal for families to have less than two children? I merely asking the question questioning the possibilities? So am i wrong?Originally posted by Ducati996:it is funny how you throw back my accussations of you back at me. so you do see that my point was a lousy joke? you agree with me then that it is lame to use 'lousy jokes' as points for our argument.
then perhaps you may like to re-examine your post. did you not mention, at the rate the government is producing the laws, that laws should be made to ensure that our singaporeans show courtesy to each other, and also that laws should make it compulsory to set up families and ensure we reach our optimum growth, in other words implying that it should be made illegal for families to have less than two children?
Check out all these
seat-belt rule
Bus passengers should belt up too
Bus seat-belt requirement reviewed regularly
Taxis another loophole
Back of pick-up safer than back seat?
Well, criticizing individual is not my main aim but to let everyone see some facts and logics instead of following blindly.
my intention was not to make people laugh. my intention was to make YOU see how lame your argument was. but, as usual, you point out the flaws in my arguments without realising the flaws in yours. ironically, you have actually criticized yourself when you criticized me.
You mean for a child borned in singapore at young age, he got plenty of choice to migrate? It is only after gaining independence and working to be able to support himself that he got plenty of choice.
did i say that there were laws that promoted creativity? it is ridiculous to think that there can be a law that makes it illegal to be uncreative. my question to you was: which of our laws stifle our creativity?
does freedom of speech promote creativity? as far as i can tell, our restrictions in freedom of speech are in the form of prohibition in topics that will incite racial tension, compromise national security, and, of course, as has been clearly demonstrated, slander aginst the government. slander refers to baseless accusations, hence if you have proof of your accusations that it will not be illegal. what dr chee did to the PM was slander, illegal; but if it were legal, would you call that creative? the restrictions are in place to protect us; are you implying that by being free to incite unrest, to compromise national security and freely throw slander at the government, we are creative?
you said your key point was, if we restricted even the tiny little freedoms, is it good? what 'tiny little freedom' has the government prohibited you from practicing? everything that the government prohibits us from doing are acts that will have adverse consequences on either the country, the society, those around us, or even ourselves. example: we cannot smoke in air-conditioned places, is it not to protect the people around the smokers? we cannot spit, is it not maintain hygiene?
you are still being vague, apart from your pet peeve, freedom of speech, and that too lacked elaboration from you. my question still stands: which laws stifle our creativity?
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S'pore's unforgiving culture not helpful Are you sure restrictions are in place to protect us or in particular the ruling party in term of the aggressiveness against opp in politics? Can you explain the characteristic lack of creativity in singaporean then? It's mainly becos of our educational system and partly due to the lawful system that cultivate typical singaporean's Kiaxi mentality to kill off creativity in singapore.
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plenty of choice. what does your birthplace have anything to do with it? people stay on at their country of birth because they are proud of it, and happy to stay there. you, obviously, are not. what are you implying? that you are patriotic? no country will take you in? no money to migrate?
Do you think approval will be given to accept sick and old folk in a country to add on the burden. Even singapore don't. Age and health check will be the most difficult stage to pass for old planning to migrate. And that's why i mentioned that my old folks who are having health problems are stuck here with just their pathetic CPF burdened by an even high cost HDB flat to cover over their head.
i believe your concern for your parents. but it raises the question: if you love them so much, why let them stay on here, since this place is as screwed up as you claim it to be?
there is always a way to get out of this muckhole of a place that you call your birthplace. and especially since you hate it so much, that should inspire you to strive even harder to get out. sell the flat, whatever it takes, for the promise of a better life, with your parents. and furthermore, since the cost of living is lower elsewhere, than obviously you cant say you dont have the money to migrate, because in the long run you will save money.
Singapore is definitely not the best but just another good enuff place to work esp for foreigner who has no burden to serve NS, to pay the government, to raise children in this high cost environment but to earn and enjoy elsewhere. That's all.
S'pore is just another good enough place to work? but in other posts, you have also criticized this, especially where foreign talent is concerned. and did you not say you will earn more elsewhere?
Just curious and some guessing, so you working for government maybe in SAF as a regular then?
these are not questions to be posed to me, or anyone else, but yourself. i have my own answers to these questions, answers which i believe in, with full conviction, but would not apply to you or anyone else. these are my reasons, and mine alone, to stay on this country.
Well, thanks. migration might be the future plan. who know what will happen in the future? I have to take care of my parents first of course but definitely won't have the intention to settle down here. I even urge my wife not to take up citizenship. Even her relatives and friends who are working and living here as PR are smart enuff not to take up citizenship.
i truly wish you all the best. there is no need to condemn a person who wishes to migrate because he finds the country of his birth unsuitable for his life. your life is yours to live. and i sincerely wish you happiness in wherever you may choose to reside.
True, I agree this is not the worse place yet.
all i can say to this is, nowhere in the world can you find a country or society where 100% of the people are supportive of their government or their leaders. an unhappy minority will always exist. but here, at least, you DO have hope. you CAN get away, unlike other places bogged down by poverty and torn by violence where the people truly HAVE NO HOPE, and worse still if the happy people are the minority.
Well, got to rush off to fetch my wife. Going to JB for our weekend shopping and enjoyment as usual. Will try to reply to the rest when i got time. forums is just forums. Don't have to take it seriously like some who make a life out of it. -
Your comments only show your ignorance. Singapore is not the only country implementing these rules. There are quite a few other countries already implemented this ruling.Originally posted by Kyo23:heck out all these
seat-belt rule
Bus passengers should belt up too
Bus seat-belt requirement reviewed regularly
Taxis another loophole
Back of pick-up safer than back seat?
Eg. In Austrilia, all passengers, including bus are required to belt up or fined very heavily.
When your statements are backed by facts, I don't see how the ruling party can take any action. If this is not so, how come Mr Chiam is able to stay in politics so long? But if you slander, or touch on racial or religion issues, that's another story.
S'pore's unforgiving culture not helpful Are you sure restrictions are in place to protect us or in particular the ruling party in term of the aggressiveness against opp in politics? Can you explain the characteristic lack of creativity in singaporean then? It's mainly becos of our educational system and partly due to the lawful system that cultivate typical singaporean's Kiaxi mentality to kill off creativity in singapore.
Unless you want a Hanson in politics...or fighting in parliament?
Lack of creativity? That's up to the individual, and you should not push the blame convinently to the education system. Kiaxi does not kill off creativity, just that we are more cautious. Creativity is ideas, doing things in different way, which all of us are fully capable of.
We are accountable for our own actions, blaming the goverment for everything is not the solution. If you dare not take risk...is that your choice or the goverment? Whose fault? Don't blame others for your own flaws. -
right here:By Kyo 23:When did i mentioned that at the rate the government is producing the laws, that laws SHOULD be made to ensure that our singaporeans show courtesy to each other, and also that laws SHOULD make it compulsory to set up families and ensure we reach our optimum growth, in other words implying that it should be made illegal for families to have less than two children?
to compare with my reply:By Kyo23:After years of educating the pple on importance of courtesy, few follows, Should law be passed to enforce it? After letting the pple know the importance of raising a family and having more children io curb a greying populations, and the number of singles still going up and we still face a serious baby crisis, should law be passed to stop the trend to curb a national crisis then?
is my reply not similar to yours? and you said i was making a poor joke? so isn't yours too? i phrased my post deliberately to show that yours was a joke, you saw it in mine but ignored yours.By me:Then by your reasoning too, since everybody knows stealing, rape, drugs and murder are wrong, we should remove the laws that prohibit such acts?
where are the facts? i've been asking for you to give me facts, examples at least, but you have not been forthcoming.By Kyo23:Well, criticizing individual is not my main aim but to let everyone see some facts and logics instead of following blindly.
following blindly? criticizing blindly is no less undesirable.
i have not yet attempted to discuss the level of creativity in s'pore. i am merely debating the effect of laws in s'pore on our level of creativity.By Kyo23:Can you explain the characteristic lack of creativity in singaporean then? It's mainly becos of our educational system and partly due to the lawful system that cultivate typical singaporean's Kiaxi mentality to kill off creativity in singapore.
this is getting ridiculous. this is the third time you have claimed that our laws stifle our creativity, without the slightest elaboration how, yet you claim to have intention only to provide people with facts. where, then, are the facts? the examples? where?
and now, since maybe you too sense that it is getting tiresome for you to throw this accusation without elaboration, you throw in the educational system as well. and, again, this too lacks elaboration.
lets take this one at a time. my question still stands:
WHICH OF OUR LAWS STIFLE CREATIVITY IN OUR PEOPLE?IN WHAT WAY?
if possible, please also touch on what type of creativity, ie, in the workplace? in our schools?
no. i am merely a student. a student who is grateful for his subsidised university fees. a student who is glad that at times he can go out till the middle of the night and walk home along the streets with no fear of harm.By Kyo23:You mean for a child borned in singapore at young age, he got plenty of choice to migrate? It is only after gaining independence and working to be able to support himself that he got plenty of choice.
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well you agree then that there for people who are able to fend for themselves, they have plenty of choice? are you still of a young age? have you not yet gained independance? have you not yet begun working and able to support yourself?
if the answers to these questions are yes, from your post, you agree then that you have plenty of choice?
[quote]By Kyo23:
Just curious and some guessing, so you working for government maybe in SAF as a regular then?
but even if i were a civil servant, or an SAF regular, will you dismiss my posts as ramblings from a blind follower? does a person's vocation discredit his arguments in a debate?
my questions are still awaiting your answer.