Religious tensions in Aussie?
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Let me clarify a few things here brader...And i'm not a priest or what we would call an "Ustaz"Originally posted by saltedveggie:i'm not saying all muslims are like that, but when i asked a few of them about their religion, they couldn't give me a reason why they did certain things. like, why can't they eat pork? they couldn't say; they said, priest say so i follow lor.
maybe the guy isn't called a priest, but you know, someone with that ranking. i think maybe some muslims should speak up in here? so that we all can have a better understanding.
1st
Why cant they eat pork...
Its stated in the Quran as one of the things that we cannot eat or touch...
But as i would like to explain, we carry out our lives following 2 guides, that is the Quran, and the Sunnah of our Prophet Muhammad S.A.W...(Meaning his practices or way of life)
The prophet forbade the consumption and contact of pork as Pigs eat anything, and what they eat makes up their bodies. We do not know whether they eat any diseased matter which could pass on to humans causing diseases...(look up Mad Cow Disease, caused from feeding cows dead matter)...
This is just one of the reasons....
Any more you'd like to ask i'd be more than happy to call my friends or me to answer
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Ref Oriakan's entry....
Brader, really is that what you think the Quran states? Or do you think that you translate what the quran states too literally...really the level of translation matches to...the extremists....
Your reading it too literally...let me clarify some of the lines you quoted...
Sura (2:191) - And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]
You missed the line which i bolded. this phrase must be taken into context what the whole chapter is trying to say. Here its referring to ONLY WHEN WE ARE DRIVEN OUT FROM THE PLACE WE LIVE IN FORCEFULLY. So think about it along the lines when a group tries to kick me out of my country. I am given the right to kick them out...
Sura (2:244) - Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.
What exactly is your translation of the word FIGHT? In the eyes of Allah S.W.T, fight does not literally mean fight with the blade or the sword, or bullets if you like...fight also means our everyday battles in life, like fighting temptation, fighting the urge to do bad. I emphasise again strongly, a LITERAL translation is very dangerous.
Sura (2:216) - Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
Really i gotta question where you got this line, cause the line is incomplete, and also mistranslated...let me show you what this is...
Al Baqarah (2:216) - There is a need for you to fight, yet fighting is something you hate; you hate something yet it is good for you; You like something, yet it can damage you And Allah knoweth, yet you know not.
What this line is trying to say here is in bold...and DOES NOT refer to fighting...
Really quoting lines like that equals reading without understanding. BLIND reading...Oriakan, i'm willing to spend time with you if you want to know what the lines you quote mean. I emphasise again, a literal translation is very dangerous, and you're doing the same thing that the extremists are doing... -
You know, Wakus the funny thing is, you're doing the same thing apologetics of another monotheistic faith do very often:when it suits them their holy book become symbolic.
Ref Oriakan's entry....
Brader, really is that what you think the Quran states? Or do you think that you translate what the quran states too literally...really the level of translation matches to...the extremists....
Your reading it too literally...let me clarify some of the lines you quoted...
Sura (2:191) - And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]
You missed the line which i bolded. this phrase must be taken into context what the whole chapter is trying to say. Here its referring to ONLY WHEN WE ARE DRIVEN OUT FROM THE PLACE WE LIVE IN FORCEFULLY. So think about it along the lines when a group tries to kick me out of my country. I am given the right to kick them out...
Sura (2:244) - Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.
What exactly is your translation of the word FIGHT? In the eyes of Allah S.W.T, fight does not literally mean fight with the blade or the sword, or bullets if you like...fight also means our everyday battles in life, like fighting temptation, fighting the urge to do bad. I emphasise again strongly, a LITERAL translation is very dangerous.
Sura (2:216) - Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
Really i gotta question where you got this line, cause the line is incomplete, and also mistranslated...let me show you what this is...
Al Baqarah (2:216) - There is a need for you to fight, yet fighting is something you hate; you hate something yet it is good for you; You like something, yet it can damage you And Allah knoweth, yet you know not.
What this line is trying to say here is in bold...and DOES NOT refer to fighting...
Really quoting lines like that equals reading without understanding. BLIND reading...Oriakan, i'm willing to spend time with you if you want to know what the lines you quote mean. I emphasise again, a literal translation is very dangerous, and you're doing the same thing that the extremists are doing...
Very well, you've clarified some of the verses as being symbolic but what would you make of these? :
Sura (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
Sura (9:29) - Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Ishaq: 327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’” -
From the sura you've posted, again, once the verses are expanded in context, its understandable that they were revealed during a time of hostile array and where treaties are broken. The early muslims recognized something of a relationship between 'erroneuos beliefs' and socio-economic exploitation of others, which is probably why these communites had to struggle with each other.
An example is taking advantage of the illiterates by purposely distorting scriptures to them for some gain. Another is driving certain groups out of their homes when treaties were first set. Its something along those lines. Complicated huh.
The hadiths (the last two quotes) you've posted, its well known among muslims they are forged or weak both on chains of transmission and fiqh - understanding.
Hadiths are like the apocryphal works in Christianity. They are sometimes outside of the main canons of Islam.
Ill end with something to balance this out once more. Speaking to the contemporary Abrahamic faith adherents of its time, the Quran states, "To each among you We have appointed a law and an open way. If God had willed, He would made you a single people, but that He might try you in what He hath given you. So strive with one another in good works. Unto God is your return and He will inform you wherein ye differed." -
This is a bit confusing. Did you mean to say:
From the sura you've posted, again, once the verses are expanded in context, its understandable that they were revealed during a time of hostile array and where treaties are broken.
?
From the sura you've posted, again, once the verses are expanded in context, its understandable SINCE they were revealed during a time of hostile array and where treaties are broken.
If your saying that different laws apply to different times, what does that say for god's absolute knowledge and authority on morality? If true morality exists, then it is constant, unlike the laws humanity enforces and god should know these consistent law at all times if he is omniscient.
If god's commands are just what he thinks works best at the time, then following god's word is fallaciously appealing to authority. If killing is truly wrong, and not just something god doesn't like, then it is ALWAYS wrong, not just during times of peace.
But this brings us to another problem; what constitutes times of hostility? I'd say things aren't going so great over in Israel, so am I allowed to strike off heads and finger tips?
And on a side note, doesn't striking off finger tips seem useless and petty since they are already dead? When we also keep hell in mind, it sure seems god likes to kick a dead horse doesn't he? -
Thanks for the clarification.Originally posted by Gauze:The hadiths (the last two quotes) you've posted, its well known among muslims they are forged or weak both on chains of transmission and fiqh - understanding. Hadiths are like the apocryphal works in Christianity. They are sometimes outside of the main canons of Islam. -
Originally posted by Oriakan:
Well, thats a loaded inquiry. Basically, I happen to agree with you. There is no true morality and we can't infer absolute rights or wrongs.
If your saying that different laws apply to different times, what does that say for god's absolute knowledge and authority on morality? If true morality exists, then it is constant, unlike the laws humanity enforces and god should know these consistent law at all times if he is omniscient.
If god's commands are just what he thinks works best at the time, then following god's word is fallaciously appealing to authority. If killing is truly wrong, and not just something god doesn't like, then it is ALWAYS wrong, not just during times of peace.
Why is authority created then? Religions or the institutions of law, they are operative hypothesises to bring about elevating effects in communities. Means, not ends.
Responding to the idiot extremists who propose for a free for all bloodbath, the traditional rules of war condems it. Over at the Eteraz site somewhere, there is a good guide on it.
But this brings us to another problem; what constitutes times of hostility? I'd say things aren't going so great over in Israel, so am I allowed to strike off heads and finger tips?
Striking off fingertips? Hey... thats manly manicuring. Lmao. I don't know.
And on a side note, doesn't striking off finger tips seem useless and petty since they are already dead? When we also keep hell in mind, it sure seems god likes to kick a dead horse doesn't he?
Hell? Seeing it another way, it is heaven too, though demonic, where its inhabitants becomes aware of God - praising Him in pleading for His mercy. Essentially knowing God again. -
Hold on a sec,are you sure you're a muslim?
Well, thats a loaded inquiry. Basically, I happen to agree with you. There is no true morality and we can't infer absolute rights or wrongs.
Doesn't your faith teach you that allah's morals for humanity are absolute?
Elevating effects at the cost of false beliefs which are harmful to the individual society?
Why is authority created then? Religions or the institutions of law, they are operative hypothesises to bring about elevating effects in communities. Means, not ends.
But the extremists get their teaching from their holy book which expliclty states that in order to comply with their religious teachings they need to kill.
Responding to the idiot extremists who propose for a free for all bloodbath, the traditional rules of war condems it
You say there are traditional rules of war condemming the extremists, care to quote?
This is just twisted.
Hell? Seeing it another way, it is heaven too, though demonic, where its inhabitants becomes aware of God - praising Him in pleading for His mercy. Essentially knowing God again. -
Originally posted by Oriakan:
Yes I'm a muslim and derived that conclusion through the muslim faith. Whaaaat? How...? Seek it out yourself laaaaaaaah.
Hold on a sec,are you sure you're a muslim?
Doesn't your faith teach you that allah's morals for humanity are absolute?Elevating effects at the cost of false beliefs which are harmful to the individual society?
Imo, the aftermath is irrelavant. In the same question, of false beliefs, I see how you can easily influence others with your own convictions, false or true. I see how you are every bit capable contributing to harm. You are that powerful. You are a potential revolution.But the extremists get their teaching from their holy book which expliclty states that in order to comply with their religious teachings they need to kill.
Issit? Lets explore a little of that. Wakus quoted this from you.
Sura (2:191) - And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers].
It does explicitly said to kill non believers isnt it? Though I don't agree with the parenthesis. Even so, what happens when you introduce context of the text? What does the previous and subsequent verses say?
2:190 - Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.
2:192 - But if they cease, then lo! God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 - And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppresion.
Hmm.You say there are traditional rules of war condemming the extremists, care to quote?
There is a famous quote from the first successor to Muhammad that goes something like:
"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."
Traditionalist Rules of Violence from Eteraz
Islamic Military Jurisprudence from WikipediaThis is just twisted.
Mmm. Sweet suffering. I suppose its couched in many allegories. For example in Buddhism if I may speak about it, if they don't reach enlightenment and see the world for what it is (become aware of God), they'll be stuck in the wheels of karma, suffering and suffering until they, know. -
My point here Oriakan is reading it without understanding what the context of the passage is about. If you think i'm doing what you are saying, you're using the Quran in exactly the same way, reading it and translating it the way you choose to believe it...now where does that make us stand? I say again you are reading it too literally and your reading of the lines really reflect the way how an extremist would read it...thus justifying it for their cause...Originally posted by Oriakan:You know, Wakus the funny thing is, you're doing the same thing apologetics of another monotheistic faith do very often:when it suits them their holy book become symbolic.
Very well, you've clarified some of the verses as being symbolic but what would you make of these? :
Sura (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them
Sura (9:29) - Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Ishaq: 327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Okay let me clarify these lines...
Ur first line is incomplete. Try quoting it wholly can?
Sura 8:12 When God Almighty, commanded the Angels; Allah is with you, hence strengthen the hearts of those who believe. I will instill fear into the hearts of non-believers. Therefore strike their heads and strike every of their fingertips.
The ones in bold were the lines you missed...and i believed you cut and paste from a page where the tendency to be sensational is strong, the Book doesn't say anything about striking off someones head. Wonder where you get that? -
The second line i say again, you refer to the line fighting, and i say again fighting takes up many forms. Do not stay close to merely war or arms, or are you that myopic to see that fight only means just that?
And before you go on shoot another of those lines, tell me the website you're getting this lines from, i would be interested to read...and i presume you're living in singapore...ever seen a muslim go after you with a knife? I don't really think so...
I'm not exactly an expert on Islam, but you just quoting these lines really only lead to more misunderstanding and hate towards Muslims... -
What are this people up to???
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Explaining the obvious, dwelling the clear, living the realities...
